"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at
21:26:01 on Thu, 10 Nov 2016, Offramp remarked:

Finally, can someone explain how someone might be "beheaded" when a tram
tips over

That's fairly easy. Their head gets thrown through a window as that side
of the tram is sliding sideways, and gets cut off as it slides over one of
the rails.

Although it was a coach crash not a tram crash, I seem to recall Metallica's
original bass player Cliff Burton dying in similar fashion many years ago.

A highly plausible explanation by Roland imho.

James

In article , d () wrote:

On Thu, 10 Nov 2016 17:38:20 +0000
Neil Williams wrote:
On 2016-11-10 17:00:22 +0000, d said:

That sounds like a retrograde step to me. Unlike a bus a train can't
swerve out of the way if there's an obstruction ahead the driver missed
and as we have seen, toppling over on a curve is a possibly. A bus
would just skid.

Buses can and do topple if driven too fast round corners. National
Express gave up double-decker operation for years when this happened to
one of theirs.

Yes, fair point. But in general a bus is more likely to skid than topple.
Didn't LT make a point of showing videos of old routemasters that would
never topple over no matter what idiotic moves a bus driver did with them?
Admittedly it was on a skid pan so there were no curbs or other obstacles
for the wheels to get caught on, but even so.

It was an RT. The film was shot a long time ago, before there were many
Routemasters. RTs were taller and narrower than RMs.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Thu, 10 Nov 2016 15:46:29 -0600,
wrote:

I think the only system where you might be right is Manchester Metrolink
which has both railway signalled and drive-on-sight sections, with different
controller settings for each. Most trams in this country are driven like
buses. The only real difference is separate traffic signals which only apply
to trams (white lights). I can see a case for railway signals on the
off-road sections of Tramlink which would cover the section south of the
crash site to Sandilands tram stop. That might include overspeed protection
like TPWS.

I think this will happen as a result of this crash. On a tramway with
old bits of railway in use and speeds up to 80 km/h - as applies very
close to the site of the derailment - it seems incredible (perhaps
only in retrospect) that they are operated under street-running rules,
IMO it's almost a tram-train network, or an old-style interurban.

Speed protection would be a sensible addition and could surely be done
*relatively* cheaply - normal TPWS could be deployed, or some other
existing system bought in. What do the German Stadtbahn operators use
when off the street? I don't remember seeing the usual white light
signals so they clearly have another mode.

There has been evidence, anecdotally and from maybe unqualified
observers, that some drivers had been taking that corner too fast.
Does the operator or TfL regularly review recorder data to assess
driving standards? Maybe they didn't do enough of that.

The Mayor has mentioned this fundraising page -
https://www.justgiving.com/crowdfund...-incident-fund
- but I'm not sure that's appropriate. Whatever happened had many
possible contributing events, failures and design decisions, all the
responsibility of TfL or First. They are the ones who should be
supporting people affected by this terrible incident (*not* accident).

Richard.

On 12.11.16 10:42, Richard wrote:
On Thu, 10 Nov 2016 15:46:29 -0600,
wrote:

I think the only system where you might be right is Manchester Metrolink
which has both railway signalled and drive-on-sight sections, with different
controller settings for each. Most trams in this country are driven like
buses. The only real difference is separate traffic signals which only apply
to trams (white lights). I can see a case for railway signals on the
off-road sections of Tramlink which would cover the section south of the
crash site to Sandilands tram stop. That might include overspeed protection
like TPWS.

I think this will happen as a result of this crash. On a tramway with
old bits of railway in use and speeds up to 80 km/h - as applies very
close to the site of the derailment - it seems incredible (perhaps
only in retrospect) that they are operated under street-running rules,
IMO it's almost a tram-train network, or an old-style interurban.

I always equated it with an old-style interurban.

On Sat, 12 Nov 2016 10:42:05 +0000, Richard wrote:

On Thu, 10 Nov 2016 15:46:29 -0600,
wrote:

I think the only system where you might be right is Manchester Metrolink
which has both railway signalled and drive-on-sight sections, with different
controller settings for each. Most trams in this country are driven like
buses. The only real difference is separate traffic signals which only apply
to trams (white lights). I can see a case for railway signals on the
off-road sections of Tramlink which would cover the section south of the
crash site to Sandilands tram stop. That might include overspeed protection
like TPWS.

I think this will happen as a result of this crash. On a tramway with
old bits of railway in use and speeds up to 80 km/h - as applies very
close to the site of the derailment - it seems incredible (perhaps
only in retrospect) that they are operated under street-running rules,
IMO it's almost a tram-train network, or an old-style interurban.

Speed protection would be a sensible addition and could surely be done
*relatively* cheaply - normal TPWS could be deployed, or some other
existing system bought in. What do the German Stadtbahn operators use
when off the street? I don't remember seeing the usual white light
signals so they clearly have another mode.

There has been evidence, anecdotally and from maybe unqualified
observers, that some drivers had been taking that corner too fast.
Does the operator or TfL regularly review recorder data to assess
driving standards? Maybe they didn't do enough of that.

The Mayor has mentioned this fundraising page -
https://www.justgiving.com/crowdfund...-incident-fund
- but I'm not sure that's appropriate. Whatever happened had many
possible contributing events, failures and design decisions, all the
responsibility of TfL or First. They are the ones who should be
supporting people affected by this terrible incident (*not* accident).

Richard.

Why no speed detection equipment, as used on roads, both to warn a speeding driver and to record the
time & vehicle number?

Also there are reports of speeding at this spot on other occasions - I wonder if it the same driver
involved?

On 11/11/2016 16:48, tim... wrote:
Is there not some sort of ATP or speed control system in such an event
on the Tramlink? IIRC, there are timed signals along the line.

No, no ATP or speed control. It's drive-on-sight.

I don't believe there are any timed signals, just a few protecting
single-line/interlaced sections and road junctions.

Apparently trams aren't fitted with
devices to apply the brakes if travelling too fast.

Correct.

but, according to the BBC, they are fitted with devices that apply the
brakes if the driver falls asleep

The driver has to press a vigilance button or pedal (I forget which)
every 30 seconds or the brakes are applied.

On 11/11/2016 08:43, Neil Williams wrote:
Interestingly, what we see as "tram signals" apply to buses in most
European countries too.

In UK law the white light signals are traffic lights that apply only to
trams, as opposed to the red/amber/green ones which apply to road
traffic other than trams.

Going past a horizontal white light signal is the same in law as a bus
driver going through a red traffic light, and carries the same penalties.

Statutory Instrument 2002 No. 3113 refers.

In message , at 19:26:51 on Tue, 15 Nov
2016, Clive D.W. Feather remarked:

The driver has to press a vigilance button or pedal (I forget which)
every 30 seconds or the brakes are applied.

At 50mph it looks like you could get all the way from inside the tunnel
to the junction in that time.
--
Roland Perry

On 2016-11-15 11:30:36 +0000, Clive D.W. Feather said:

In UK law the white light signals are traffic lights that apply only to
trams, as opposed to the red/amber/green ones which apply to road
traffic other than trams.

Yes, I think that law needs to be changed, as it would allow bus-lane
overtakes without the need for a separating traffic island. Bus-lane
overtakes at junctions are about the most effective form of bus
infrastructure, and there are hardly any of them in the UK (though more
than there used to be) largely because they require about a lane and a
half's width to implement (due to the need for a traffic island to
separate the sets of conventional traffic lights) rather than just a
lane (where the public transport white signal can share the pole).

Neil
--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.

On 15.11.16 11:30, Clive D.W. Feather wrote:
On 11/11/2016 08:43, Neil Williams wrote:
Interestingly, what we see as "tram signals" apply to buses in most
European countries too.

In UK law the white light signals are traffic lights that apply only to
trams, as opposed to the red/amber/green ones which apply to road
traffic other than trams.

Going past a horizontal white light signal is the same in law as a bus
driver going through a red traffic light, and carries the same penalties.

Statutory Instrument 2002 No. 3113 refers.


And nothing will trip the trams? I have seen places in Europe where the
tram's traction relays will pop if it runs a red.