Or did I get the wrong end of the stick? Some brand new 66 plate single
deckers have appeared on the W9 and they're plain old diesel.

--
Spud

On Thursday, 9 February 2017 09:25:55 UTC, wrote:
Or did I get the wrong end of the stick? Some brand new 66 plate single
deckers have appeared on the W9 and they're plain old diesel.

--
Spud

Err new DD buses in *Central London* have to be hybrids. Single decks have to zero emission in Zone 1. Some other routes further out have gained them but there's no consistent approach. The new buses on the W9 are to euro6 standard so are low emission. The Mayor's policy re the ULEZ means there will be more hybrid double deckers bought new with a massive programme of retrofitting existing fleet vehicles to bring them to either euro6 or euro6 equivalent. There are simply far too many buses with at least 7-10 years service life left for them all to be booted out of the fleet and replaced with new vehicles. There are also two other huge issues - there needs to be an enormous increase in electricity generation if London is to have a lot of electric buses with overnight charging. There is also a development gap in the bus market - there are very few viable hybrid single deck buses and even fewer all electric or hydrogen buses. China seems to have a monopoly on producing electric single deckers (see those on the 507/521) and I don't think that's very healthy. There are some Optare electric buses but their reliability seems dubious. Single deck hybrids have broadly failed in London - several fleets have had short service lives and then been scrapped prematurely. This poses a big problem for TfL hence the current reliance on buying euro6 spec diesel single decks. It will be interesting to see if the bus manufacturers can produce reliable and affordable hybrid / electric single decks in the range of sizes that London's network needs.

--
Paul C
via Google

On 21.02.2017 8:05 PM, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Thursday, 9 February 2017 09:25:55 UTC, wrote:
Or did I get the wrong end of the stick? Some brand new 66 plate single
deckers have appeared on the W9 and they're plain old diesel.

--
Spud

Err new DD buses in *Central London* have to be hybrids. Single decks have to zero emission in Zone 1. Some other routes further out have gained them but there's no consistent approach. The new buses on the W9 are to euro6 standard so are low emission. The Mayor's policy re the ULEZ means there will be more hybrid double deckers bought new with a massive programme of retrofitting existing fleet vehicles to bring them to either euro6 or euro6 equivalent. There are simply far too many buses with at least 7-10 years service life left for them all to be booted out of the fleet and replaced with new vehicles. There are also two other huge issues - there needs to be an enormous increase in electricity generation if London is to have a lot of electric buses with overnight charging. There is also a development gap in the bus market - there are very few viable hybrid single deck buses and even fewer all electric or hydrogen buses. China seems to have a monopoly on producing electric single deckers (see those on the 507/521) and I don't think that's very healthy. There are some Optare electric buses but their reliability seems dubious. Single deck hybrids have broadly failed in London - several fleets have had short service lives and then been scrapped prematurely. This poses a big problem for TfL hence the current reliance on buying euro6 spec diesel single decks. It will be interesting to see if the bus manufacturers can produce reliable and affordable hybrid / electric single decks in the range of sizes that London's network needs.


It remains a mystery to me why London spends a fortune on hybrid and battery
powered buses (complete with the inefficiency of adding a load of weight in
the form of decidedly environmentally unfriendly batteries to every bus) to
address a problem that in a sane nation would be solved with trolleybuses.

On Tuesday, 21 February 2017 19:07:06 UTC, Clank wrote:
On 21.02.2017 8:05 PM, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Thursday, 9 February 2017 09:25:55 UTC, wrote:
Or did I get the wrong end of the stick? Some brand new 66 plate single
deckers have appeared on the W9 and they're plain old diesel.

--
Spud

Err new DD buses in *Central London* have to be hybrids. Single decks have to zero emission in Zone 1. Some other routes further out have gained them but there's no consistent approach. The new buses on the W9 are to euro6 standard so are low emission. The Mayor's policy re the ULEZ means there will be more hybrid double deckers bought new with a massive programme of retrofitting existing fleet vehicles to bring them to either euro6 or euro6 equivalent. There are simply far too many buses with at least 7-10 years service life left for them all to be booted out of the fleet and replaced with new vehicles. There are also two other huge issues - there needs to be an enormous increase in electricity generation if London is to have a lot of electric buses with overnight charging. There is also a development gap in the bus market - there are very few viable hybrid single deck buses and even fewer all electric or hydrogen buses. China seems to have a monopoly on producing electric single deckers (see those on the 507/521) and I don't think that's very healthy. There are some Optare electric buses but their reliability seems dubious. Single deck hybrids have broadly failed in London - several fleets have had short service lives and then been scrapped prematurely. This poses a big problem for TfL hence the current reliance on buying euro6 spec diesel single decks. It will be interesting to see if the bus manufacturers can produce reliable and affordable hybrid / electric single decks in the range of sizes that London's network needs.


It remains a mystery to me why London spends a fortune on hybrid and battery
powered buses (complete with the inefficiency of adding a load of weight in
the form of decidedly environmentally unfriendly batteries to every bus) to
address a problem that in a sane nation would be solved with trolleybuses.

Well yes but I suspect the prejudices of the Cities of London, Westminster and Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea are as strong now as they were back in the 30s. Can't wires fixed to our lovely buildings - heaven forfend!

--
Paul C
via Google

In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

On Tuesday, 21 February 2017 19:07:06 UTC, Clank wrote:
On 21.02.2017 8:05 PM, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Thursday, 9 February 2017 09:25:55 UTC, wrote:
Or did I get the wrong end of the stick? Some brand new 66 plate
single deckers have appeared on the W9 and they're plain old diesel.

Err new DD buses in *Central London* have to be hybrids. Single decks
have to zero emission in Zone 1. Some other routes further out have
gained them but there's no consistent approach. The new buses on the W9
are to euro6 standard so are low emission. The Mayor's policy re the
ULEZ means there will be more hybrid double deckers bought new with a
massive programme of retrofitting existing fleet vehicles to bring them
to either euro6 or euro6 equivalent. There are simply far too many
buses with at least 7-10 years service life left for them all to be
booted out of the fleet and replaced with new vehicles. There are also
two other huge issues - there needs to be an enormous increase in
electricity generation if London is to have a lot of electric buses
with overnight charging. There is also a development gap in the bus
market - there are very few viable hybrid single deck buses and even
fewer all electric or hydrogen buses. China seems to have a monopoly
on producing electric single deckers (see those on the 507/521) and I
don't think that's very healthy. There are some Optare electric buses
but their reliability seems dubious. Single deck hybrids have broadly
failed in London - several fleets have had short service lives and then
been scrapped prematurely. This poses a big problem for TfL hence the
current reliance on buying euro6 spec diesel single decks. It will be
interesting to see if the bus manufacturers can produce reliable and
affordable hybrid / electric single decks in the range of sizes that
London's network needs.

It remains a mystery to me why London spends a fortune on hybrid and
battery powered buses (complete with the inefficiency of adding a load
of weight in the form of decidedly environmentally unfriendly batteries
to every bus) to address a problem that in a sane nation would be solved
with trolleybuses.

Well yes but I suspect the prejudices of the Cities of London,
Westminster and Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea are as strong
now as they were back in the 30s. Can't wires fixed to our lovely
buildings - heaven forfend!

It was in the 1900s not the 1930s. They have a choice, wires or choke to
death. Simple

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On 2017\02\22 00:36, wrote:

They have a choice, wires or choke to death. Simple

Wires look like crap. What's wrong with hydrogen buses?

On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 10:05:28 -0800 (PST)
Paul Corfield wrote:
the bus market - there are very few viable hybrid single deck buses and ev=
en fewer all electric or hydrogen buses. China seems to have a monopoly on=
producing electric single deckers (see those on the 507/521) and I don't t=

European manufacturers caught napping. They only have themselves to blame.
Though I suppose given the prevalence of trolleybuses in Europe the battery
bus market probably isn't huge over there.

--
Spud

On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 14:08:55 -0800 (PST)
Paul Corfield wrote:
On Tuesday, 21 February 2017 19:07:06 UTC, Clank wrote:
It remains a mystery to me why London spends a fortune on hybrid and batt=
ery
powered buses (complete with the inefficiency of adding a load of weight=
in
the form of decidedly environmentally unfriendly batteries to every bus)=
to
address a problem that in a sane nation would be solved with trolleybuse=
s.

Well yes but I suspect the prejudices of the Cities of London, Westminster =
and Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea are as strong now as they were =
back in the 30s. Can't wires fixed to our lovely buildings - heaven forfen=
d!

Thats probably got a lot to do with it. I can't think of any other reason
as to why London doesn't install them other than nimbyism though ironically
westminster doesn't mind having garish xmas decorations strung up between the
buildings on oxford and regent street on huge wires for 2 months of the year.

--
Spud

On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 01:17:34 +0000
Basil Jet wrote:
On 2017\02\22 00:36, wrote:

They have a choice, wires or choke to death. Simple

Wires look like crap. What's wrong with hydrogen buses?

Supply and storage. Though there is one hydrogen bus route in london that
runs through southwark. Can't remember the number.

--
Spud

wrote in message news
On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 10:05:28 -0800 (PST)
Paul Corfield wrote:
the bus market - there are very few viable hybrid single deck buses and
ev=
en fewer all electric or hydrogen buses. China seems to have a monopoly
on=
producing electric single deckers (see those on the 507/521) and I don't
t=

European manufacturers caught napping. They only have themselves to blame.
Though I suppose given the prevalence of trolleybuses in Europe

prevalence ?

I can thing of a few places

but only a very few

certainly nowhere near enough to make it a dominant factor for suppliers