Oyster product pickup improvements
 

On 01/03/2017 09:17, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 08:44:37 on Wed, 1 Mar
2017, Neil Williams remarked:

It will work *exactly the same way* as Oyster as far as the
passenger is concerned. Put money on, auto-top-up if desired,
spend it by travelling.

If that's the case then "Oyster will become like Contactless" is
meaningless, if the passenger can't perceive a difference (other than
the slower gate-opening).

It's not meaningless, because the back-end is changing.

OK, so the change is one that's only perceived by TfL, whereas the
passenger will see no change? Is that what you think it means.

The passenger will presumably notice if they can use different types of
fare capping to at present, or new discount schemes/ticket products are
brought in using the extra capabilities which will be available.

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

Oyster product pickup improvements
 

"Arthur Figgis" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 01/03/2017 09:17, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 08:44:37 on Wed, 1 Mar
2017, Neil Williams remarked:

It will work *exactly the same way* as Oyster as far as the
passenger is concerned. Put money on, auto-top-up if desired,
spend it by travelling.

If that's the case then "Oyster will become like Contactless" is
meaningless, if the passenger can't perceive a difference (other than
the slower gate-opening).

It's not meaningless, because the back-end is changing.

OK, so the change is one that's only perceived by TfL, whereas the
passenger will see no change? Is that what you think it means.

The passenger will presumably notice if they can use different types of
fare capping to at present, or new discount schemes/ticket products are
brought in using the extra capabilities which will be available.

especially if he has to over-feed a card to pay for a load of individual
journeys, only to have the excess refunded when the back office cap is
applied

seems like a recipe for disaster in the making

tim

Oyster product pickup improvements
 

On 01.03.2017 12:29 PM, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:43:29 on Wed, 1 Mar
2017, d remarked:

Only because they are young and dumb. Payback will be inevitable and
painful. We are, after all, less than ten years into this new era, and
the dust has barely had time to settle.

There is a big difference when *everybody* has some sort of photo or
social media posts from their past that they would be embarrassed
about, though. At that point, it won't be "what a pillock" but rather
it will be a "there but for the grace of god go I".

Maybe, but you need to wait until today's University students are senior
managers.

I'm not so sure about that. After all, *this* is social media, albeit text
only and anyone who knows anything about usenet could track down a load of
information about us on here.

Yes, it is, and they could.

And even though I use an alias I know its not foolproof and if someone
wanted to find out who I was then with a bit of effort they could and
then they'll know all my views which may or may not be a good fit with
Acme Plc or whoever. Luckily usenet is off the radar to most people
these days but its not 100% guaranteed especially when applying for
jobs with IT companies.

Which proves my point - until senior managers take an attitude of "there
but for the grace of god go I" regarding over-exuberant Usenet postings,
there is a risk. And despite Usenet being more widespread since the
eternal september, I don't think many senior managers have reached that
yet.

Speaking as a senior manager, I'm pretty sure there are postings I made on
Usenet in the 1980s I'd probably regret now, and being well aware of the
perils of social media would absolutely not be holding someone's youthful
indiscretions against them provided they're not of a nature that brings
into doubt their trustworthiness.

I suspect I am not unique and senior managers - in tech firms in particular
- are rather more forward thinking than you imagine. (Many of my peers do
not, for example, think a mobile boarding pass is the work of the devil and
don't insist on using a phone made of bakelite because the batteries in
those new fangled smartphones just don't last enough...)

Oyster product pickup improvements
 

On 01/03/2017 18:53, tim... wrote:


"Arthur Figgis" wrote in message

The passenger will presumably notice if they can use different types
of fare capping to at present, or new discount schemes/ticket products
are brought in using the extra capabilities which will be available.

especially if he has to over-feed a card to pay for a load of individual
journeys, only to have the excess refunded when the back office cap is
applied

Wouldn't they just need the money there ready for when the single,
capped, payment is required overnight?

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

Oyster product pickup improvements
 

This would only work (revenue risk wise) for Oyster cards with auto top-up set.

I suspect that back office Oyster cards without auto top-up set will calculate the balance after each journey, and push a top-up reminder to the readers if needed. This would still take some processing load off the gates, without exposing TfL to excessive revenue risk.

Oyster product pickup improvements
 

In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote:

In message , at 10:22:55 on Wed, 1
Mar 2017, Neil Williams remarked:

So they're removing an extremely useful piece of functionality?
Seriously? Doesn't surprise me given the ticket office closures. TfL
seems to be increasingly running things for the convenience of itself
rather than the passenger.

There will be advantages - weekly capping for one, not having to "pick
up" travel products another.

OK, so now we *have* found some features where the new Oyster card's
operation is different from the passenger's perception. I'm getting a
headache.

Contactless and Oyster already calculate some journey prices differently,
the Contactless technology being able to spot some peak/non-peak
combinations which are cheaper than the choices Oyster has to make based on
the history up to each touch in/out only.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Oyster product pickup improvements
 

On 2017-03-01 18:53:00 +0000, tim... said:

especially if he has to over-feed a card to pay for a load of
individual journeys, only to have the excess refunded when the back
office cap is applied

seems like a recipe for disaster in the making

That is not how capping works. Capping works by stopping taking money
when the cap has been reached.

Neil
--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the @ to reply.

Oyster product pickup improvements
 

Clank wrote:

Speaking as a senior manager, I'm pretty sure there are postings I made on
Usenet in the 1980s I'd probably regret now, and being well aware of the
perils of social media would absolutely not be holding someone's youthful
indiscretions against them provided they're not of a nature that brings
into doubt their trustworthiness.


That certainly is common, although I can recall advising people as a systems
administrator back in the early 80s (when the internet, such as it was then, was
only researchers and students with real name .edu addresses) that the internet
was forever and that they needed to be a little more circumspect.

Oyster product pickup improvements
 

In article , d () wrote:

On Wed, 01 Mar 2017 09:37:46 -0600
wrote:
In article , (Someone
Somewhere) wrote:
Really? That the time to deal with either an Oyster or Contactless
card is lower bounded due in signficant part to either CPU cycles or
die size?

All aspects of the system affect processing speed.

Ultimately though, a networked systems is constrained by the speed of
data on a copper wire or fibre optic cable and thats capped by physics.

How much of the networking isn't fibre these days? How much that isn't won't
be by 2018? Compare 4G wireless data speeds with earlier generations. Copper
is just so passé.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Oyster product pickup improvements
 

In message , at 19:19:12 on Wed, 1 Mar 2017,
Clank remarked:

until senior managers take an attitude of "there but for the grace of
god go I" regarding over-exuberant Usenet postings, there is a risk.
And despite Usenet being more widespread since the eternal september,
I don't think many senior managers have reached that yet.

Speaking as a senior manager, I'm pretty sure there are postings I made on
Usenet in the 1980s I'd probably regret now, and being well aware of the
perils of social media would absolutely not be holding someone's youthful
indiscretions against them provided they're not of a nature that brings
into doubt their trustworthiness.

I suspect I am not unique and senior managers - in tech firms in particular
- are rather more forward thinking than you imagine.

A lot of senior managers I know still get someone to print out their
emails so they can read them. Beware viewing the world from inside a
tech-bubble.
--
Roland Perry

Oyster product pickup improvements
 

In message , at
18:38:14 on Wed, 1 Mar 2017, Arthur Figgis
remarked:
If you want to discuss "early adopters of social media" instead,
then my view is that Facebook moved out of the early adopter phase
in 2009. I joined Facebook in June 2007.

When I was a student, c.1999 someone I vaguely knew set up a website
where people could upload newfangled digital photos relatively easily,
label their mates in them and generally cyberstalk people. If only I'd
given him a few quid to develop the idea further and introduce it to a
wider public...

An acquaintance of mine, Joel, set up such a site for Internet industry
insiders in around 1999, later threw it open to all comers.
--
Roland Perry

Oyster product pickup improvements
 

"Arthur Figgis" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 01/03/2017 18:53, tim... wrote:


"Arthur Figgis" wrote in message

The passenger will presumably notice if they can use different types
of fare capping to at present, or new discount schemes/ticket products
are brought in using the extra capabilities which will be available.

especially if he has to over-feed a card to pay for a load of individual
journeys, only to have the excess refunded when the back office cap is
applied

Wouldn't they just need the money there ready for when the single, capped,
payment is required overnight?

and then if it isn't thus available, how do they "beep" at the gate to stop
you entering, for a journey that you have already completed?

tim



--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

Oyster product pickup improvements
 

"Neil Williams" wrote in message
...
On 2017-03-01 18:53:00 +0000, tim... said:

especially if he has to over-feed a card to pay for a load of individual
journeys, only to have the excess refunded when the back office cap is
applied

seems like a recipe for disaster in the making

That is not how capping works. Capping works by stopping taking money
when the cap has been reached.

not when it reconciled overnight [1] in the back office, it doesn't

[1] which is the proposed plan (apparently)

tim

Oyster product pickup improvements
 

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 19:19:12 on Wed, 1 Mar 2017,
Clank remarked:

until senior managers take an attitude of "there but for the grace of god
go I" regarding over-exuberant Usenet postings, there is a risk. And
despite Usenet being more widespread since the eternal september, I don't
think many senior managers have reached that yet.

Speaking as a senior manager, I'm pretty sure there are postings I made on
Usenet in the 1980s I'd probably regret now, and being well aware of the
perils of social media would absolutely not be holding someone's youthful
indiscretions against them provided they're not of a nature that brings
into doubt their trustworthiness.

I suspect I am not unique and senior managers - in tech firms in
particular
- are rather more forward thinking than you imagine.

A lot of senior managers I know still get someone to print out their
emails so they can read them. Beware viewing the world from inside a
tech-bubble.

I'd be very surprised, if there are more then a handful of managers who are
incapable of finding the "print" button" for themselves.

So the very nature of the fact that they have someone who can be tasked with
printing them out for them, suggests that they are being printed out for a
different reason than "the manager is incapable of accessing them on a
computer for him/herself"

tim

Oyster product pickup improvements
 

In message , at 08:37:14 on Thu, 2 Mar 2017,
tim... remarked:
"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 19:19:12 on Wed, 1 Mar
2017, Clank remarked:

until senior managers take an attitude of "there but for the grace
of god go I" regarding over-exuberant Usenet postings, there is a
risk. And despite Usenet being more widespread since the eternal
september, I don't think many senior managers have reached that yet.

Speaking as a senior manager, I'm pretty sure there are postings I made on
Usenet in the 1980s I'd probably regret now, and being well aware of the
perils of social media would absolutely not be holding someone's youthful
indiscretions against them provided they're not of a nature that brings
into doubt their trustworthiness.

I suspect I am not unique and senior managers - in tech firms in
particular
- are rather more forward thinking than you imagine.

A lot of senior managers I know still get someone to print out their
emails so they can read them. Beware viewing the world from inside a
tech-bubble.

I'd be very surprised, if there are more then a handful of managers who
are incapable of finding the "print" button" for themselves.

They are from a generation who don't even have a keyboard.

So the very nature of the fact that they have someone who can be tasked
with printing them out for them, suggests that they are being printed
out for a different reason than "the manager is incapable of accessing
them on a computer for him/herself"

No.
--
Roland Perry

Oyster product pickup improvements
 

In message , at 08:18:16 on Thu, 2 Mar
2017, Roland Perry remarked:
If you want to discuss "early adopters of social media" instead,
then my view is that Facebook moved out of the early adopter phase
in 2009. I joined Facebook in June 2007.

When I was a student, c.1999 someone I vaguely knew set up a website
where people could upload newfangled digital photos relatively easily,
label their mates in them and generally cyberstalk people. If only I'd
given him a few quid to develop the idea further and introduce it to a
wider public...

An acquaintance of mine, Joel, set up such a site for Internet industry
insiders in around 1999, later threw it open to all comers.

Fotopic.net
--
Roland Perry

Oyster product pickup improvements
 

On Wed, 01 Mar 2017 19:20:46 -0600
wrote:
In article , d () wrote:
Ultimately though, a networked systems is constrained by the speed of
data on a copper wire or fibre optic cable and thats capped by physics.

How much of the networking isn't fibre these days? How much that isn't won't

No idea, but BT tend to keep their cards close to their chest so only they
know the true ratio.

be by 2018? Compare 4G wireless data speeds with earlier generations. Copper
is just so passé.

You're confusing bandwidth with latency. They're not the same thing.

--
Spud

Oyster product pickup improvements
 

On Thu, 2 Mar 2017 08:30:34 -0000, tim... wrote:


"Neil Williams" wrote in message
...
On 2017-03-01 18:53:00 +0000, tim... said:

especially if he has to over-feed a card to pay for a load of individual
journeys, only to have the excess refunded when the back office cap is
applied

seems like a recipe for disaster in the making

That is not how capping works. Capping works by stopping taking money
when the cap has been reached.

not when it reconciled overnight [1] in the back office, it doesn't

[1] which is the proposed plan (apparently)

It's not really either. If you make more than one journey on a contacless
card in a day you only get one charge.

When you use a brand new card a 10p authorisation, but not charge, is
made against the account when you first touch in. Nothing else reaches
your account until the end of the day when a single charge for the sum
of all the journeys made is collected and the 10p authorisation cancelled.

Or at least that is what appeared to happened to me when I used a pre-pay
card with realtime alerts of events.

Oyster product pickup improvements
 

In article , d () wrote:

On Wed, 01 Mar 2017 19:20:46 -0600
wrote:
In article , d () wrote:
Ultimately though, a networked systems is constrained by the speed of
data on a copper wire or fibre optic cable and thats capped by physics.

How much of the networking isn't fibre these days? How much that isn't
won't

No idea, but BT tend to keep their cards close to their chest so only
they know the true ratio.

be by 2018? Compare 4G wireless data speeds with earlier generations.
Copper is just so passé.

You're confusing bandwidth with latency. They're not the same thing.

I don't think I am.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Oyster product pickup improvements
 

On Thu, 02 Mar 2017 05:08:09 -0600
wrote:
In article , d () wrote:

On Wed, 01 Mar 2017 19:20:46 -0600
wrote:
In article , d () wrote:
Ultimately though, a networked systems is constrained by the speed of
data on a copper wire or fibre optic cable and thats capped by physics.

How much of the networking isn't fibre these days? How much that isn't
won't

No idea, but BT tend to keep their cards close to their chest so only
they know the true ratio.

be by 2018? Compare 4G wireless data speeds with earlier generations.
Copper is just so passé.

You're confusing bandwidth with latency. They're not the same thing.

I don't think I am.

Well I'm not sure what you're saying about latency with 4G data speeds
compared to earlier generations then. Are you suggesting the extra data
speeds are down to the speed of light increasing and the signal getting from
the base station quicker? The time for a signal to reach a phone from the
base station is fixed and always will be. Ditto any signals going down a
fibre optic cable. The only difference in the latter is how quickly a router
can process and forward them but for this trivial amount of data the
transmission will be I/O bound, not CPU bound.

--
Spud

Oyster product pickup improvements
 

In article , d () wrote:

On Thu, 02 Mar 2017 05:08:09 -0600
wrote:
In article , d () wrote:

On Wed, 01 Mar 2017 19:20:46 -0600
wrote:
In article , d () wrote:
Ultimately though, a networked systems is constrained by the speed
of data on a copper wire or fibre optic cable and thats capped by
physics.

How much of the networking isn't fibre these days? How much that isn't
won't

No idea, but BT tend to keep their cards close to their chest so only
they know the true ratio.

be by 2018? Compare 4G wireless data speeds with earlier generations.
Copper is just so passé.

You're confusing bandwidth with latency. They're not the same thing.

I don't think I am.

Well I'm not sure what you're saying about latency with 4G data speeds
compared to earlier generations then. Are you suggesting the extra data
speeds are down to the speed of light increasing and the signal getting
from the base station quicker? The time for a signal to reach a phone from
the base station is fixed and always will be. Ditto any signals going
down a fibre optic cable. The only difference in the latter is how quickly
a router can process and forward them but for this trivial amount of data
the transmission will be I/O bound, not CPU bound.

What I'm saying is that communications channels now being used are faster
than those in use since Oyster started. Full stop.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Oyster product pickup improvements
 

On Thu, 02 Mar 2017 07:46:46 -0600
wrote:
What I'm saying is that communications channels now being used are faster
than those in use since Oyster started. Full stop.

You're still not really understanding what latency is. Never mind.

--
Spud

Oyster product pickup improvements
 

In message , at 07:46:46
on Thu, 2 Mar 2017, remarked:

You're confusing bandwidth with latency. They're not the same thing.

I don't think I am.

Well I'm not sure what you're saying about latency with 4G data speeds
compared to earlier generations then. Are you suggesting the extra data
speeds are down to the speed of light increasing and the signal getting
from the base station quicker? The time for a signal to reach a phone from
the base station is fixed and always will be. Ditto any signals going
down a fibre optic cable. The only difference in the latter is how quickly
a router can process and forward them but for this trivial amount of data
the transmission will be I/O bound, not CPU bound.

What I'm saying is that communications channels now being used are faster
than those in use since Oyster started. Full stop.

"Faster" is not a helpful word. Do you mean the end-to-end time (which
in any event is highly dependent on geography) or the delays in
processing packets at each node en route? I'm going to assume the "speed
of light" in the fibre doesn't change much.
--
Roland Perry

Oyster product pickup improvements
 

"David Walters" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 2 Mar 2017 08:30:34 -0000, tim... wrote:


"Neil Williams" wrote in message
...
On 2017-03-01 18:53:00 +0000, tim... said:

especially if he has to over-feed a card to pay for a load of
individual
journeys, only to have the excess refunded when the back office cap is
applied

seems like a recipe for disaster in the making

That is not how capping works. Capping works by stopping taking money
when the cap has been reached.

not when it reconciled overnight [1] in the back office, it doesn't

[1] which is the proposed plan (apparently)

It's not really either. If you make more than one journey on a contacless
card in a day you only get one charge.

When you use a brand new card a 10p authorisation, but not charge, is
made against the account when you first touch in. Nothing else reaches
your account until the end of the day when a single charge for the sum
of all the journeys made is collected and the 10p authorisation cancelled.

so what happens in the back office if the charge for 28.60 (the cap for
Shenfield to Zone 1) is rejected?

do I get free travel for the day

tim

Oyster product pickup improvements
 

In message , at 15:09:58 on Thu, 2 Mar 2017,
tim... remarked:

When you use a brand new card a 10p authorisation, but not charge, is
made against the account when you first touch in. Nothing else reaches
your account until the end of the day when a single charge for the sum
of all the journeys made is collected and the 10p authorisation cancelled.

so what happens in the back office if the charge for 28.60 (the cap for
Shenfield to Zone 1) is rejected?

do I get free travel for the day

No, you might get an unauthorised overdraft on your credit card, and
quite likely a penalty charge from the card company.

And TfL will probably blacklist the card, so it won't work "tomorrow".
--
Roland Perry

Oyster product pickup improvements
 

On 02.03.2017 7:34 PM, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 15:09:58 on Thu, 2 Mar 2017,
tim... remarked:

When you use a brand new card a 10p authorisation, but not charge, is
made against the account when you first touch in. Nothing else reaches
your account until the end of the day when a single charge for the sum
of all the journeys made is collected and the 10p authorisation cancelled.

so what happens in the back office if the charge for 28.60 (the cap for
Shenfield to Zone 1) is rejected?

do I get free travel for the day

No, you might get an unauthorised overdraft on your credit card, and
quite likely a penalty charge from the card company.

Plenty of accounts/cards do not permit an account to go into overdraft (and
yes, they do have contactless.)

And TfL will probably blacklist the card, so it won't work "tomorrow".

Seems likely.

Oyster product pickup improvements
 

On 02/03/2017 14:03, d wrote:
On Thu, 02 Mar 2017 07:46:46 -0600
wrote:
What I'm saying is that communications channels now being used are faster
than those in use since Oyster started. Full stop.

You're still not really understanding what latency is. Never mind.

Indeed - although he confusingly raises 4G (which I don't believe is
greatly used by Oyster readers and gates) as an example.

The design principles of 4G were for both higher bandwidth AND lower
latency. The latter was achieved through removing 'hops' within the
core network and various forms of protocol conversion that held up the
throughput of data packets.

I still fail to see how Moore's law is helping with the tiny amount of
processing needed for Oyster/contactless though - it's got to be all
about latency rather than the millions of instructions that could be run
through during the 300ms or so when the card is in communication with
the reader.

Oyster product pickup improvements
 

On 02/03/2017 18:58, Clank wrote:
On 02.03.2017 7:34 PM, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 15:09:58 on Thu, 2 Mar
2017, tim... remarked:

When you use a brand new card a 10p authorisation, but not charge, is
made against the account when you first touch in. Nothing else reaches
your account until the end of the day when a single charge for the sum
of all the journeys made is collected and the 10p authorisation
cancelled.

so what happens in the back office if the charge for 28.60 (the cap
for Shenfield to Zone 1) is rejected?

do I get free travel for the day

No, you might get an unauthorised overdraft on your credit card, and
quite likely a penalty charge from the card company.

Plenty of accounts/cards do not permit an account to go into overdraft (and
yes, they do have contactless.)


And TfL will probably blacklist the card, so it won't work "tomorrow".

Seems likely.

For some definiton of "tomorrow"!

Due to a bank foul up my credit card that was auto-topup linked to my
Oyster card was deleted by the bank (yes - I do mean deleted - they
could no longer find any evidence of it in their systems apart from my
credit card bill) and TfL spent almost 6 weeks merrily letting my use my
Oyster card (and applying 2 auto-topups that obviously failed) before
letting me know about it. They then immediately took 3 topups (the
third was due) when I updated the card details.

Oyster product pickup improvements
 

In message , at 11:11:09 on Fri, 3 Mar
2017, Someone Somewhere remarked:

And TfL will probably blacklist the

credit

card, so it won't work "tomorrow".

Seems likely.

For some definiton of "tomorrow"!

Due to a bank foul up my credit card that was auto-topup linked to my
Oyster card
******

Two very different systems.
--
Roland Perry

Oyster product pickup improvements
 

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 15:09:58 on Thu, 2 Mar 2017,
tim... remarked:

When you use a brand new card a 10p authorisation, but not charge, is
made against the account when you first touch in. Nothing else reaches
your account until the end of the day when a single charge for the sum
of all the journeys made is collected and the 10p authorisation
cancelled.

so what happens in the back office if the charge for 28.60 (the cap for
Shenfield to Zone 1) is rejected?

do I get free travel for the day

No, you might get an unauthorised overdraft on your credit card, and quite
likely a penalty charge from the card company.

if you got these it wouldn't be rejected, would it?

The two outcomes are mutually exclusive.

And TfL will probably blacklist the card, so it won't work "tomorrow".

I didn't expect to perpetrate this "scam" using the same card every day. I
had envisaged the need to have multiple cards (though haven't yet worked out
how to acquire sufficient multiple cards)

tim

Oyster product pickup improvements
 

In message , at 12:04:02 on Fri, 3 Mar 2017,
tim... remarked:

No, you might get an unauthorised overdraft on your credit card, and
quite likely a penalty charge from the card company.

if you got these it wouldn't be rejected, would it?

The two outcomes are mutually exclusive.

Not if the Card Company sends a flag back to TfL saying "that was at
your risk because the customer is overdrawn".
--
Roland Perry

Oyster product pickup improvements
 

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 12:04:02 on Fri, 3 Mar 2017,
tim... remarked:

No, you might get an unauthorised overdraft on your credit card, and
quite likely a penalty charge from the card company.

if you got these it wouldn't be rejected, would it?

The two outcomes are mutually exclusive.

Not if the Card Company sends a flag back to TfL saying "that was at your
risk because the customer is overdrawn".

and what on earth does that mean?

Oyster product pickup improvements
 

In message , at 13:16:27 on Fri, 3 Mar 2017,
tim... remarked:

No, you might get an unauthorised overdraft on your credit card,
and quite likely a penalty charge from the card company.

if you got these it wouldn't be rejected, would it?

The two outcomes are mutually exclusive.

Not if the Card Company sends a flag back to TfL saying "that was at
your risk because the customer is overdrawn".

and what on earth does that mean?

A transaction can be accepted in full, accepted at the retailer's risk,
or refused completely.
--
Roland Perry

Oyster product pickup improvements
 

On Friday, 3 March 2017 14:07:05 UTC, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 13:16:27 on Fri, 3 Mar 2017,
tim... remarked:

No, you might get an unauthorised overdraft on your credit card,
and quite likely a penalty charge from the card company.

if you got these it wouldn't be rejected, would it?

The two outcomes are mutually exclusive.

Not if the Card Company sends a flag back to TfL saying "that was at
your risk because the customer is overdrawn".

and what on earth does that mean?

A transaction can be accepted in full, accepted at the retailer's risk,
or refused completely.
--
Roland Perry

Any transaction is either authorised, or declined. The only case where the transaction is at the retailer's risk is if the retailer has overridden the prompt for an authorisation (a common example is using Visa Electron on-board trains and planes, where the card must always be authorised, and historically there has been no way to do so).

Oyster product pickup improvements
 

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 13:16:27 on Fri, 3 Mar 2017,
tim... remarked:

No, you might get an unauthorised overdraft on your credit card, and
quite likely a penalty charge from the card company.

if you got these it wouldn't be rejected, would it?

The two outcomes are mutually exclusive.

Not if the Card Company sends a flag back to TfL saying "that was at
your risk because the customer is overdrawn".

and what on earth does that mean?

A transaction can be accepted in full, accepted at the retailer's risk, or
refused completely.

yeah

but what does At retailer's risk mean

tim


--
Roland Perry

Oyster product pickup improvements
 

On 02/03/2017 08:29, tim... wrote:


"Arthur Figgis" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 01/03/2017 18:53, tim... wrote:


"Arthur Figgis" wrote in message

The passenger will presumably notice if they can use different types
of fare capping to at present, or new discount schemes/ticket products
are brought in using the extra capabilities which will be available.

especially if he has to over-feed a card to pay for a load of individual
journeys, only to have the excess refunded when the back office cap is
applied

Wouldn't they just need the money there ready for when the single,
capped, payment is required overnight?

and then if it isn't thus available, how do they "beep" at the gate to
stop you entering, for a journey that you have already completed?

Presumably they don't - but they could blacklist the card and not let
you in next time. How does it do with contactless bank cards at the
moment if the bank account is empty when it is billed?

Presumably the overall advantages of the new improved shinier system
outweigh this kind of issue anyway.


--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

Oyster product pickup improvements
 

In message , at
08:27:21 on Fri, 3 Mar 2017, Matthew Dickinson
remarked:
No, you might get an unauthorised overdraft on your credit card,
and quite likely a penalty charge from the card company.

if you got these it wouldn't be rejected, would it?

The two outcomes are mutually exclusive.

Not if the Card Company sends a flag back to TfL saying "that was at
your risk because the customer is overdrawn".

and what on earth does that mean?

A transaction can be accepted in full, accepted at the retailer's risk,
or refused completely.

Any transaction is either authorised, or declined. The only case where
the transaction is at the retailer's risk is if the retailer has
overridden the prompt for an authorisation (a common example is using
Visa Electron on-board trains and planes, where the card must always be
authorised, and historically there has been no way to do so).

That's the situation when the authorisation process simply isn't
available. There's another scenario where (eg) in mail order the
authorisation system says "sorry, wrong delivery address" and the
retailer decides to ship it anyway. Or that's what I've always
understood.
--
Roland Perry

Oyster product pickup improvements
 

In message , at 17:53:07 on Fri, 3 Mar 2017,
tim... remarked:

A transaction can be accepted in full, accepted at the retailer's
risk, or refused completely.

yeah

but what does At retailer's risk mean

It means that if the funds don't eventually flow from buyer to card
company, neither will they flow from card company to seller.

If you are selling something intangible like tube fares, it may well be
better to take the risk that the cardholder will put money into the
empty or maxed-out card account, rather than **** them off by refusing
to allow them to travel.
--
Roland Perry

Oyster product pickup improvements
 

On Saturday, 4 March 2017 10:24:50 UTC, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at
08:27:21 on Fri, 3 Mar 2017, Matthew Dickinson
remarked:
No, you might get an unauthorised overdraft on your credit card,
and quite likely a penalty charge from the card company.

if you got these it wouldn't be rejected, would it?

The two outcomes are mutually exclusive.

Not if the Card Company sends a flag back to TfL saying "that was at
your risk because the customer is overdrawn".

and what on earth does that mean?

A transaction can be accepted in full, accepted at the retailer's risk,
or refused completely.

Any transaction is either authorised, or declined. The only case where
the transaction is at the retailer's risk is if the retailer has
overridden the prompt for an authorisation (a common example is using
Visa Electron on-board trains and planes, where the card must always be
authorised, and historically there has been no way to do so).

That's the situation when the authorisation process simply isn't
available. There's another scenario where (eg) in mail order the
authorisation system says "sorry, wrong delivery address" and the
retailer decides to ship it anyway. Or that's what I've always
understood.
--
Roland Perry



On Saturday, 4 March 2017 10:24:50 UTC, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at
08:27:21 on Fri, 3 Mar 2017, Matthew Dickinson
remarked:
No, you might get an unauthorised overdraft on your credit card,
and quite likely a penalty charge from the card company.

if you got these it wouldn't be rejected, would it?

The two outcomes are mutually exclusive.

Not if the Card Company sends a flag back to TfL saying "that was at
your risk because the customer is overdrawn".

and what on earth does that mean?

A transaction can be accepted in full, accepted at the retailer's risk,
or refused completely.

Any transaction is either authorised, or declined. The only case where
the transaction is at the retailer's risk is if the retailer has
overridden the prompt for an authorisation (a common example is using
Visa Electron on-board trains and planes, where the card must always be
authorised, and historically there has been no way to do so).

That's the situation when the authorisation process simply isn't
available. There's another scenario where (eg) in mail order the
authorisation system says "sorry, wrong delivery address" and the
retailer decides to ship it anyway. Or that's what I've always
understood.
--
Roland Perry

Even if address verification is used, any Customer Not Present transaction has the potential to be chargebacked.

Oyster product pickup improvements
 

In message , at
04:59:58 on Sat, 4 Mar 2017, Matthew Dickinson
remarked:
No, you might get an unauthorised overdraft on your credit card,
and quite likely a penalty charge from the card company.

if you got these it wouldn't be rejected, would it?

The two outcomes are mutually exclusive.

Not if the Card Company sends a flag back to TfL saying "that was at
your risk because the customer is overdrawn".

and what on earth does that mean?

A transaction can be accepted in full, accepted at the retailer's risk,
or refused completely.

Any transaction is either authorised, or declined. The only case where
the transaction is at the retailer's risk is if the retailer has
overridden the prompt for an authorisation (a common example is using
Visa Electron on-board trains and planes, where the card must always be
authorised, and historically there has been no way to do so).

That's the situation when the authorisation process simply isn't
available. There's another scenario where (eg) in mail order the
authorisation system says "sorry, wrong delivery address" and the
retailer decides to ship it anyway. Or that's what I've always
understood.

Even if address verification is used, any Customer Not Present transaction
has the potential to be chargebacked.

I'd only expect an authorised transaction to be charged-back if there
was later a dispute about the quality/non-arrival of an item.

--
Roland Perry