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Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled
On 04.07.17 18:42, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
tim... wrote: "David Walters" wrote in message ... On Sun, 21 May 2017 08:58:21 -0000 (UTC), Recliner wrote: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/crossrail-hits-buffers-at-heathrow-jwrcctt60?shareToken=703895969b67292fe9096b3e8da8e f44 Extracts: The airport’s owners — a consortium of mostly foreign investment funds — want to recoup its past spending on the private train line with an “investment recovery charge” of £570 for every train that uses the track, plus extra fees of about £107 per train. Transport chiefs and the rail watchdog argue there is no justification for such a historic charge, and fear it could mean higher ticket prices. The Department for Transport reckons the extra charges would cost Crossrail £42m a year. A High Court judge is expected to rule imminently on the row after Heathrow challenged the watchdog’s decision to reject the charges. Under contingency plans drawn up by Transport for London, Crossrail trains could terminate a few miles short of the airport, with passengers forced to transfer onto other trains at a suburban station. The trains would then head back to central London, dodging the £700 fees. There is apparently an agreement: https://your.heathrow.com/elizabeth-...sted-services/ "Heathrow, Transport for London (TfL) and the Department for Transport have agreed a commitment to boost integrated rail connectivity to the airport, including the addition of two new Elizabeth Line trains per hour serving Terminal 5 from December 2019." Including Oyster payment for Heathrow Express "From May 2018, new ticket readers will be installed at Heathrow, meaning passengers using Heathrow Express and TfL Rail between Paddington and Heathrow will be able to use pay as you go Oyster or a contactless device." So how's the premium fare on HEx going to work then? How will the Oyster machine know that the user is intending to travel on HEx and not on Crossrail? I suppose that it could be enforced at the other end, but then what will the default fare be for people who don't tap out? And that will, of course, delay passengers alighting from HEx at Padd as they queue to tap out. Which will somewhat negate much of the convenience that the higher fare is paying for. There could be different machines for each train, but that will cause confusions - I suspect most people would rather the convenience of Oyster weren't available to HEx passengers if the result is that pax who travel on Crossrail risk getting charged a premium fare for tapping on the wrong machine. I'm wondering if they really mean that oyster will be accepted for travel on HEx. Every HEx I've travelled on has had a ticket check on the train (there being none at Padd). The fares difference could be enforced there. Oyster allows charging of a special, non-zonal fare for certain things. Notably river services, at present, but also the danglebahn. Anna Noyd-Dryver When are they going to extend Oyster/Contactless to Brighton and to Bedford? |
Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled
On Tue, 4 Jul 2017 22:39:23 +0100, "
wrote: On 04.07.17 18:42, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote: tim... wrote: "David Walters" wrote in message ... On Sun, 21 May 2017 08:58:21 -0000 (UTC), Recliner wrote: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/crossrail-hits-buffers-at-heathrow-jwrcctt60?shareToken=703895969b67292fe9096b3e8da8e f44 Extracts: The airports owners a consortium of mostly foreign investment funds want to recoup its past spending on the private train line with an investment recovery charge of 570 for every train that uses the track, plus extra fees of about 107 per train. Transport chiefs and the rail watchdog argue there is no justification for such a historic charge, and fear it could mean higher ticket prices. The Department for Transport reckons the extra charges would cost Crossrail 42m a year. A High Court judge is expected to rule imminently on the row after Heathrow challenged the watchdogs decision to reject the charges. Under contingency plans drawn up by Transport for London, Crossrail trains could terminate a few miles short of the airport, with passengers forced to transfer onto other trains at a suburban station. The trains would then head back to central London, dodging the 700 fees. There is apparently an agreement: https://your.heathrow.com/elizabeth-...sted-services/ "Heathrow, Transport for London (TfL) and the Department for Transport have agreed a commitment to boost integrated rail connectivity to the airport, including the addition of two new Elizabeth Line trains per hour serving Terminal 5 from December 2019." Including Oyster payment for Heathrow Express "From May 2018, new ticket readers will be installed at Heathrow, meaning passengers using Heathrow Express and TfL Rail between Paddington and Heathrow will be able to use pay as you go Oyster or a contactless device." So how's the premium fare on HEx going to work then? How will the Oyster machine know that the user is intending to travel on HEx and not on Crossrail? I suppose that it could be enforced at the other end, but then what will the default fare be for people who don't tap out? And that will, of course, delay passengers alighting from HEx at Padd as they queue to tap out. Which will somewhat negate much of the convenience that the higher fare is paying for. There could be different machines for each train, but that will cause confusions - I suspect most people would rather the convenience of Oyster weren't available to HEx passengers if the result is that pax who travel on Crossrail risk getting charged a premium fare for tapping on the wrong machine. I'm wondering if they really mean that oyster will be accepted for travel on HEx. Every HEx I've travelled on has had a ticket check on the train (there being none at Padd). The fares difference could be enforced there. Oyster allows charging of a special, non-zonal fare for certain things. Notably river services, at present, but also the danglebahn. Anna Noyd-Dryver When are they going to extend Oyster/Contactless to Brighton and to Bedford? When Sadiq Khan annexes Sussex and Bedfordshire ? --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. http://www.avg.com |
Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled
In article , (Anna
Noyd-Dryver) wrote: tim... wrote: "David Walters" wrote in message ... On Tue, 4 Jul 2017 17:02:09 +0100, tim... wrote: "David Walters" wrote in message ... On Sun, 21 May 2017 08:58:21 -0000 (UTC), Recliner wrote: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c...eathrow-jwrcct t60?shareToken=703895969b67292fe9096b3e8da8ef44 Extracts: The airport_s owners - a consortium of mostly foreign investment funds - want to recoup its past spending on the private train line with an "investment recovery charge" of 570 for every train that uses the track, plus extra fees of about 107 per train. Transport chiefs and the rail watchdog argue there is no justification for such a historic charge, and fear it could mean higher ticket prices. The Department for Transport reckons the extra charges would cost Crossrail 42m a year. A High Court judge is expected to rule imminently on the row after Heathrow challenged the watchdog_s decision to reject the charges. Under contingency plans drawn up by Transport for London, Crossrail trains could terminate a few miles short of the airport, with passengers forced to transfer onto other trains at a suburban station. The trains would then head back to central London, dodging the 700 fees. There is apparently an agreement: https://your.heathrow.com/elizabeth-...row-terminal-5 -boosted-services/ "Heathrow, Transport for London (TfL) and the Department for Transport have agreed a commitment to boost integrated rail connectivity to the airport, including the addition of two new per Elizabeth Line trains hour serving Terminal 5 from December 2019." Including Oyster payment for Heathrow Express "From May 2018, new ticket readers will be installed at Heathrow, meaning passengers using Heathrow Express and TfL Rail between Paddington and Heathrow will be able to use pay as you go Oyster or a contactless device." So how's the premium fare on HEx going to work then? On train ticket inspection? I infrequently travel on HEx but last time I did my ticket was checked. I meant: how is the Oyster machine going to differentiate when you tap on it (at LHR)? If the 'correction' is applied on the HEx train, then the 'touch in' device doesn't necessarily need to know. Presumably paper tickets will still be valid? I was reading it as separate Oyster/Contactless touch in for HEx. How I wasn't sure though presumably those at Paddington will be HEx-only. -- Colin Rosenstiel |
Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled
wrote:
In article , (Anna Noyd-Dryver) wrote: tim... wrote: "David Walters" wrote in message ... On Tue, 4 Jul 2017 17:02:09 +0100, tim... wrote: "David Walters" wrote in message ... On Sun, 21 May 2017 08:58:21 -0000 (UTC), Recliner wrote: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c...eathrow-jwrcct t60?shareToken=703895969b67292fe9096b3e8da8ef44 Extracts: The airport_s owners - a consortium of mostly foreign investment funds - want to recoup its past spending on the private train line with an "investment recovery charge" of ｣570 for every train that uses the track, plus extra fees of about ｣107 per train. Transport chiefs and the rail watchdog argue there is no justification for such a historic charge, and fear it could mean higher ticket prices. The Department for Transport reckons the extra charges would cost Crossrail ｣42m a year. A High Court judge is expected to rule imminently on the row after Heathrow challenged the watchdog_s decision to reject the charges. Under contingency plans drawn up by Transport for London, Crossrail trains could terminate a few miles short of the airport, with passengers forced to transfer onto other trains at a suburban station. The trains would then head back to central London, dodging the ｣700 fees. There is apparently an agreement: https://your.heathrow.com/elizabeth-...row-terminal-5 -boosted-services/ "Heathrow, Transport for London (TfL) and the Department for Transport have agreed a commitment to boost integrated rail connectivity to the airport, including the addition of two new per Elizabeth Line trains hour serving Terminal 5 from December 2019." Including Oyster payment for Heathrow Express "From May 2018, new ticket readers will be installed at Heathrow, meaning passengers using Heathrow Express and TfL Rail between Paddington and Heathrow will be able to use pay as you go Oyster or a contactless device." So how's the premium fare on HEx going to work then? On train ticket inspection? I infrequently travel on HEx but last time I did my ticket was checked. I meant: how is the Oyster machine going to differentiate when you tap on it (at LHR)? If the 'correction' is applied on the HEx train, then the 'touch in' device doesn't necessarily need to know. Presumably paper tickets will still be valid? I was reading it as separate Oyster/Contactless touch in for HEx. How I wasn't sure though presumably those at Paddington will be HEx-only. At Paddington, yes, but not at Heathrow. At Heathrow, there will still be the issue that the train service will be free between the three Heathrow stations, so they won't be able to have a gate line to enter the platforms. They can have Oyster touch pads like the DLR, but it'll be tricky explaining to foreign tourists and occasional users when they should touch in and out, and when not to. Of course, the system can be smart enough not to charge if someone does touch in at a Heathrow station and touches out again a few minutes later at a different, or even the same, Heathrow station. |
Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled
"Recliner" wrote in message ... wrote: In article , (Anna Noyd-Dryver) wrote: tim... wrote: "David Walters" wrote in message ... On Tue, 4 Jul 2017 17:02:09 +0100, tim... wrote: "David Walters" wrote in message ... On Sun, 21 May 2017 08:58:21 -0000 (UTC), Recliner wrote: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c...eathrow-jwrcct t60?shareToken=703895969b67292fe9096b3e8da8ef44 Extracts: The airport_s owners - a consortium of mostly foreign investment funds - want to recoup its past spending on the private train line with an "investment recovery charge" of ｣570 for every train that uses the track, plus extra fees of about ｣107 per train. Transport chiefs and the rail watchdog argue there is no justification for such a historic charge, and fear it could mean higher ticket prices. The Department for Transport reckons the extra charges would cost Crossrail ｣42m a year. A High Court judge is expected to rule imminently on the row after Heathrow challenged the watchdog_s decision to reject the charges. Under contingency plans drawn up by Transport for London, Crossrail trains could terminate a few miles short of the airport, with passengers forced to transfer onto other trains at a suburban station. The trains would then head back to central London, dodging the ｣700 fees. There is apparently an agreement: https://your.heathrow.com/elizabeth-...row-terminal-5 -boosted-services/ "Heathrow, Transport for London (TfL) and the Department for Transport have agreed a commitment to boost integrated rail connectivity to the airport, including the addition of two new per Elizabeth Line trains hour serving Terminal 5 from December 2019." Including Oyster payment for Heathrow Express "From May 2018, new ticket readers will be installed at Heathrow, meaning passengers using Heathrow Express and TfL Rail between Paddington and Heathrow will be able to use pay as you go Oyster or a contactless device." So how's the premium fare on HEx going to work then? On train ticket inspection? I infrequently travel on HEx but last time I did my ticket was checked. I meant: how is the Oyster machine going to differentiate when you tap on it (at LHR)? If the 'correction' is applied on the HEx train, then the 'touch in' device doesn't necessarily need to know. Presumably paper tickets will still be valid? I was reading it as separate Oyster/Contactless touch in for HEx. How I wasn't sure though presumably those at Paddington will be HEx-only. At Paddington, yes, but not at Heathrow. At Heathrow, there will still be the issue that the train service will be free between the three Heathrow stations, so they won't be able to have a gate line to enter the platforms. They can have Oyster touch pads like the DLR, but it'll be tricky explaining to foreign tourists and occasional users when they should touch in and out, and when not to. Of course, the system can be smart enough not to charge if someone does touch in at a Heathrow station and touches out again a few minutes later at a different, or even the same, Heathrow station. though the problem is going to be people not touching out many "foreigners" used to an honesty system of fare paying are not used to having to touch out as well as in tim |
Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled
In article ,
Recliner wrote: Of course, the system can be smart enough not to charge if someone does touch in at a Heathrow station and touches out again a few minutes later at a different, or even the same, Heathrow station. The tube does that now, but I agree that gating the HeX and Connect will make life for casual users far more exciting. Do many people use the train just to get between terminals, as opposed to continuing on or changing to another train? I'd think that most people changing terminals would use the airside buses. |
Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled
Heathrow Express uses dedicated platforms at Paddington, just like Gatwick Express does at Victoria, so the same mechanism could be used for charging a premium fare. Also, as Heathrow Express usually checks 100% of tickets during the journey, the handheld Oyster reader that they will presumably be issued with could trigger a "surcharge".
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Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled
"John Levine" wrote in message ... In article , Recliner wrote: Of course, the system can be smart enough not to charge if someone does touch in at a Heathrow station and touches out again a few minutes later at a different, or even the same, Heathrow station. The tube does that now, but I agree that gating the HeX and Connect will make life for casual users far more exciting. Do many people use the train just to get between terminals, as opposed to continuing on or changing to another train? I'd think that most people changing terminals would use the airside buses. I once had to use it when traffic congestion caused the airlink bus to dump everyone at T5 and not carry forward to T123. In fact, as that bus no longer serves T4, if that is your required terminal you have to use HEx to make that journey every time tim |
Among the terminals, was Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled
In article ,
tim... wrote: Do many people use the train just to get between terminals, as opposed to continuing on or changing to another train? I'd think that most people changing terminals would use the airside buses. I once had to use it when traffic congestion caused the airlink bus to dump everyone at T5 and not carry forward to T123. In fact, as that bus no longer serves T4, if that is your required terminal you have to use HEx to make that journey every time Well, you could use the 482 or 490 bus or the tube, but I take your point. R's, John |
Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled
On 05/07/2017 21:32, tim... wrote:
Do many people use the train just to get between terminals, as opposed to continuing on or changing to another train? I'd think that most people changing terminals would use the airside buses. I once had to use it when traffic congestion caused the airlink bus to dump everyone at T5 and not carry forward to T123. In fact, as that bus no longer serves T4, if that is your required terminal you have to use HEx to make that journey every time Airlink != Airside |
Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled
On 05.07.17 20:04, John Levine wrote:
In article , Recliner wrote: Of course, the system can be smart enough not to charge if someone does touch in at a Heathrow station and touches out again a few minutes later at a different, or even the same, Heathrow station. The tube does that now, but I agree that gating the HeX and Connect will make life for casual users far more exciting. Do many people use the train just to get between terminals, as opposed to continuing on or changing to another train? I'd think that most people changing terminals would use the airside buses. Remind me, BTW, please: All journeys on the Picc between T5, T4 and T123 are free, are they not? |
Among the terminals, was Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled
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Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled
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Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled
"Someone Somewhere" wrote in message ... On 05/07/2017 21:32, tim... wrote: Do many people use the train just to get between terminals, as opposed to continuing on or changing to another train? I'd think that most people changing terminals would use the airside buses. I once had to use it when traffic congestion caused the airlink bus to dump everyone at T5 and not carry forward to T123. In fact, as that bus no longer serves T4, if that is your required terminal you have to use HEx to make that journey every time Airlink != Airside exactly The statement: "most people changing terminals would use the airside buses" implies "most people with a need to change terminals ARE already airside" I was supplying cases where they were landside. tim |
Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled
On Wed, 05 Jul 2017 19:39:49 -0500, wrote:
In article , () wrote: On 05.07.17 20:04, John Levine wrote: In article -s eptember.org, Recliner wrote: Of course, the system can be smart enough not to charge if someone does touch in at a Heathrow station and touches out again a few minutes later at a different, or even the same, Heathrow station. The tube does that now, but I agree that gating the HeX and Connect will make life for casual users far more exciting. Do many people use the train just to get between terminals, as opposed to continuing on or changing to another train? I'd think that most people changing terminals would use the airside buses. Remind me, BTW, please: All journeys on the Picc between T5, T4 and T123 are free, are they not? Including to T4 which can only be done via Hatton Cross? That's what the TfL Single Fare Finder says as long as you are paying by Oyster or Contactless. It's 4.90 if you pay cash. |
Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled
In article ,
tim... wrote: The statement: "most people changing terminals would use the airside buses" implies "most people with a need to change terminals ARE already airside" I was supplying cases where they were landside. Right, that was my question. How many people need to change terminals landside. The Airlink nonsense is a plausible case, as I suppose is people connecting between T4 or T5 and coaches at the coach terminal. But how many people is that, compared to people who connnect to another flight, or arrive or leave in ways that don't require an intermediate terminal change? R's, John PS: fun fact: the Heathrow web site says about passenger counts: * Daily average total number: 206,800 (51% arrivals / 49% departures) Who are those 4136 people a day who arrive but never leave? Does this have something to do with brexit? |
Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled
John Levine wrote:
In article , tim... wrote: The statement: "most people changing terminals would use the airside buses" implies "most people with a need to change terminals ARE already airside" I was supplying cases where they were landside. Right, that was my question. How many people need to change terminals landside. The Airlink nonsense is a plausible case, as I suppose is people connecting between T4 or T5 and coaches at the coach terminal. But how many people is that, compared to people who connnect to another flight, or arrive or leave in ways that don't require an intermediate terminal change? R's, John PS: fun fact: the Heathrow web site says about passenger counts: * Daily average total number: 206,800 (51% arrivals / 49% departures) Who are those 4136 people a day who arrive but never leave? Does this have something to do with brexit? Immigrants? People who arrive via Heathrow but leave via some other route? |
Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled
"John Levine" wrote in message ... In article , tim... wrote: The statement: "most people changing terminals would use the airside buses" implies "most people with a need to change terminals ARE already airside" I was supplying cases where they were landside. Right, that was my question. How many people need to change terminals landside. The Airlink nonsense is a plausible case, as I suppose is people connecting between T4 or T5 and coaches at the coach terminal. But how many people is that, compared to people who connnect to another flight, or arrive or leave in ways that don't require an intermediate terminal change? I think the point that it isn't very many is the reason why they advertise HEx to transport them for free. There's not enough to provide a dedicated bus for, and whilst there is the possibility of directing people to use normal busses to make that connection the huge plethora of options at LHR means that there is a large risk casual visitors getting on the wrong one. tim |
Crossrail access to Heathrow still not settled
In message , at 20:19:05 on Thu, 6 Jul 2017,
John Levine remarked: PS: fun fact: the Heathrow web site says about passenger counts: * Daily average total number: 206,800 (51% arrivals / 49% departures) Who are those 4136 people a day who arrive but never leave? Does this have something to do with brexit? It's complicated by the fact that they are probably double-counting transit passengers, each one being logged as both an arrival and a departure. So if I flew Paris-London-Longhaul-London then stopped over using a different airport or Eurostar to get back to Paris, I'd skew the stats. -- Roland Perry |
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