In message , at
09:37:21 on Wed, 9 Aug 2017, Paul Corfield remarked:

How on earth does an LU employee verify a railcard and then enter the details to a customer account? This would require the customer to either
access a LU computer or for a ticket machine to be reconfigured to access the customer account database. Alternatively the customer would have
to disclose log on facilities and bank card numbers to a LU employee. That's against all good practice for secure online accounts and control
of your bank details. The only other choice is to allow people to enter railcard details against their account without verification. This is
just inviting fraud.

There may be some combination of controls and facilities that I am missing but it's not exactly straightforward.

What a rather mardy bloke grudgingly did for me at Kings Cross the other
week: take a combination of my Oyster, Railcard, and photo-licence to
add the 2nd to the 1st. Exactly the same would be just as good for
adding a railcard to a contactless credit card.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 18:48:26 on Wed, 9 Aug
2017, Roland Perry remarked:
How on earth does an LU employee verify a railcard and then enter the details to a customer account? This would require the customer to
either
access a LU computer or for a ticket machine to be reconfigured to access the customer account database. Alternatively the customer would have
to disclose log on facilities and bank card numbers to a LU employee. That's against all good practice for secure online accounts and control
of your bank details. The only other choice is to allow people to enter railcard details against their account without verification. This
is
just inviting fraud.

There may be some combination of controls and facilities that I am missing but it's not exactly straightforward.

What a rather mardy bloke grudgingly did for me at Kings Cross the
other week: take a combination of my Oyster, Railcard, and
photo-licence to add the 2nd to the 1st. Exactly the same would be just
as good for adding a railcard to a contactless credit card.

Even better would be for the Railcard to be added automatically if you
purchased it with a card. Nah, that's far too simple.
--
Roland Perry

On Wed, 9 Aug 2017 09:37:21 -0700 (PDT), Paul Corfield
wrote:

On Tuesday, 8 August 2017 01:00:38 UTC+1, wrote:

It's the same as for Oyster but the flag would be placed on the Oyster
account instead of on the individual card. [...]

I know that is a theoretical possibility but take a step back as to how online accountd work. The card holder logs on and sets up the account themselves. If they wish to add bank card details to their account to give access to extra information facilities if they use their bank card for travel then that is their choice entirely. TfL hold the data but never enter it or change it.

I can think of a way to do it. The customer has their Railcard
checked by someone at the station who verifies it in whatever way they
do now. The LUL person then gets the ticket machine (or to save £££s,
a hand-held device with printer) to generate a unique (use once,
time-limited) code that is printed out on normal ticket or receipt
stock. The code, er, encodes the Railcard type and end date, possibly
the card number.

This unique code is then entered on the TfL site. If the ticket
machines can print images, then a QR code could be scanned and
uploaded instead, or the URL found in it simply accessed. Entry of
the code associates the Railcard with the online account and different
fares/caps are charged accordingly, to any cards registered there. I
think it is quite reasonable to expect users to register to get a
discount so I don't see this to be a problem.

And to think that TfL wouldn't give me a job!

Richard.

On Mon, 07 Aug 2017 12:43:30 -0500, wrote:
I thought when the Mayor wanted to extend Oyster to National Rail route in
London ATOC insisted that railcards had to be recognised and discounts
given. So the system to register railcards on Oyster cards was somewhat
haphazardly introduced. For example you couldn't check railcard registration
status at a ticket machine. It was only when they decided to close all the
ticket offices that they had to make it possible as it now is.

But for people living outside London who aren't regular visitors contactless
became a much better option when introduced unless you are a railcard holder
because, although Oyster cards have to be registered to get railcard
discounts, they have not enabled railcard discounts against Contactless
travel.

Perhaps because there is no way for an on-board ticket inspection to
confirm the person using the contactless card is the owner, and in
possession, of the relevant railcard? In theory a ticket check of an
Oyster card can flag the railcard which the ticket inspector would then
ask to see.

On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 16:42:42 +0100, David Walters
wrote:

On Mon, 07 Aug 2017 12:43:30 -0500, wrote:
I thought when the Mayor wanted to extend Oyster to National Rail route in
London ATOC insisted that railcards had to be recognised and discounts
given. So the system to register railcards on Oyster cards was somewhat
haphazardly introduced. For example you couldn't check railcard registration
status at a ticket machine. It was only when they decided to close all the
ticket offices that they had to make it possible as it now is.

But for people living outside London who aren't regular visitors contactless
became a much better option when introduced unless you are a railcard holder
because, although Oyster cards have to be registered to get railcard
discounts, they have not enabled railcard discounts against Contactless
travel.

Perhaps because there is no way for an on-board ticket inspection to
confirm the person using the contactless card is the owner, and in
possession, of the relevant railcard? In theory a ticket check of an
Oyster card can flag the railcard which the ticket inspector would then
ask to see.

I don't see the problem. The railcard must still be brought along for
the journey.

--
jhk

On Mon, 07 Aug 2017 12:43:30 -0500,
wrote:

I thought when the Mayor wanted to extend Oyster to National Rail route in
London ATOC insisted that railcards had to be recognised and discounts
given. So the system to register railcards on Oyster cards was somewhat
haphazardly introduced. For example you couldn't check railcard registration
status at a ticket machine. It was only when they decided to close all the
ticket offices that they had to make it possible as it now is.

But for people living outside London who aren't regular visitors contactless
became a much better option when introduced unless you are a railcard holder
because, although Oyster cards have to be registered to get railcard
discounts, they have not enabled railcard discounts against Contactless
travel.

So NR passengers can't get their railcard discounts using contactless. My
question is why ATOC put up with this? It seems to go completely against
their agreement to allow Oyster to NR routes.

As the hub at the center of the UK's rail network, I have never
understood why London's Rapid Transit system must be the exception to
the rules apply to the rest of the UK's railways. Its ticketing
arrangements should work in line with the other railways.

On Sun, 27 Aug 2017 13:28:03 +0100, Robert
wrote:

On 2017-08-27 12:12:17 +0000, e27002 aurora said:

On Mon, 07 Aug 2017 12:43:30 -0500,
wrote:

I thought when the Mayor wanted to extend Oyster to National Rail route in
London ATOC insisted that railcards had to be recognised and discounts
given. So the system to register railcards on Oyster cards was somewhat
haphazardly introduced. For example you couldn't check railcard registration
status at a ticket machine. It was only when they decided to close all the
ticket offices that they had to make it possible as it now is.

But for people living outside London who aren't regular visitors contactless
became a much better option when introduced unless you are a railcard holder
because, although Oyster cards have to be registered to get railcard
discounts, they have not enabled railcard discounts against Contactless
travel.

So NR passengers can't get their railcard discounts using contactless. My
question is why ATOC put up with this? It seems to go completely against
their agreement to allow Oyster to NR routes.

As the hub at the center of the UK's rail network, I have never
understood why London's Rapid Transit system must be the exception to
the rules apply to the rest of the UK's railways. Its ticketing
arrangements should work in line with the other railways.

I'm confused. Why have you posted the same text with two slightly
different subject lines a few hours apart?

Typo in a group name first time thru.

And why do you think a ticketing system designed for a limited
geographic area and for a system which carries half the total number of
passengers in the UK should be in line with that needed for the rest of
the UK?

Why do the ticketing systems of one TOC work on all TOCs? It is for
passenger convenience. The London Underground is the hub of the
passenger rail system. As YOU say it accounts for half of the UK's
passenger journeys. Many of those journeys start outwith their
system, yet they reserve the right to be an exception to the rules.

And do you not think the systems will evolve to remove some of the
idiosyncrasies

Hope springs eternal.

Robert wrote:
On 2017-08-27 12:12:17 +0000, e27002 aurora said:

On Mon, 07 Aug 2017 12:43:30 -0500,
wrote:

I thought when the Mayor wanted to extend Oyster to National Rail route in
London ATOC insisted that railcards had to be recognised and discounts
given. So the system to register railcards on Oyster cards was somewhat
haphazardly introduced. For example you couldn't check railcard registration
status at a ticket machine. It was only when they decided to close all the
ticket offices that they had to make it possible as it now is.

But for people living outside London who aren't regular visitors contactless
became a much better option when introduced unless you are a railcard holder
because, although Oyster cards have to be registered to get railcard
discounts, they have not enabled railcard discounts against Contactless
travel.

So NR passengers can't get their railcard discounts using contactless. My
question is why ATOC put up with this? It seems to go completely against
their agreement to allow Oyster to NR routes.

As the hub at the center of the UK's rail network, I have never
understood why London's Rapid Transit system must be the exception to
the rules apply to the rest of the UK's railways. Its ticketing
arrangements should work in line with the other railways.

I'm confused. Why have you posted the same text with two slightly
different subject lines a few hours apart?

And why do you think a ticketing system designed for a limited
geographic area and for a system which carries half the total number of
passengers in the UK should be in line with that needed for the rest of
the UK?

I think we know why Adrian thinks the way he does: TfL is controlled by a
Labour mayor, while the DfT is headed by a right-wing secretary of state.
Ergo, everything that TfL does must be bad, and everything the DfT does
must have been for the best possible reasons.

The fact that London has a smart card that actually works, while the DfT's
preferred ITSO standard smart card is neither standard nor smart, is
neither here nor there.

In message , at 13:39:24 on
Sun, 27 Aug 2017, e27002 aurora remarked:
And why do you think a ticketing system designed for a limited
geographic area and for a system which carries half the total number of
passengers in the UK should be in line with that needed for the rest of
the UK?

Why do the ticketing systems of one TOC work on all TOCs? It is for
passenger convenience. The London Underground is the hub of the
passenger rail system. As YOU say it accounts for half of the UK's
passenger journeys. Many of those journeys start outwith their
system, yet they reserve the right to be an exception to the rules.

I'm more interested in why the lack of discount for *National Rail*
journeys which just happen to be inside the Oyster area, and paid for by
Oyster.

eg Gatwick to Elstree (surely soon also Luton Airport Parkway).

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/london-rai...rvices-map.pdf
--
Roland Perry

On Sun, 27 Aug 2017 13:56:38 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 13:39:24 on
Sun, 27 Aug 2017, e27002 aurora remarked:
And why do you think a ticketing system designed for a limited
geographic area and for a system which carries half the total number of
passengers in the UK should be in line with that needed for the rest of
the UK?

Why do the ticketing systems of one TOC work on all TOCs? It is for
passenger convenience. The London Underground is the hub of the
passenger rail system. As YOU say it accounts for half of the UK's
passenger journeys. Many of those journeys start outwith their
system, yet they reserve the right to be an exception to the rules.

I'm more interested in why the lack of discount for *National Rail*
journeys which just happen to be inside the Oyster area, and paid for by
Oyster.

Oyster is TfL's baby and they operate to their own rules ignoring the
discounts to which passengers are entitled.

egg Gatwick to Elstree (surely soon also Luton Airport Parkway).

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/london-rai...rvices-map.pdf

If they pull these stunts on the Elizabeth Line there may be a
backlash from passengers on the former Western Region.