On 8 Apr 2004 18:25:35 -0700, (Jeremy Barker)
wrote:

David Hansen wrote in message . ..
On Thu, 8 Apr 2004 07:17:38 +0100 someone who may be "John Rowland"
wrote this:-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/3595351.stm

London Underground (LU) has been warned that it could be sued by disabled
people if it does not improve access for them by October.
By then the part of the Disability Discrimination Act which governs access
to transport will come into force.

A lawyer's money making scheme. The Act requires modifications that
are reasonable, which is right. What is wrong is paying lawyers to
argue over what is reasonable.

I'm afraid I would strongly disagree. While in principle it should
seem easy to determine what constitutes "reasonable" it isn't always
clear cut. And it can have significant benefits for the disabled
community. For example, the charity I work for took a case against
GNER on behalf of a disabled client which resulted in them changing
their disabled passenger policy. I rather doubt that would have
happened if one of my fellow lawyers had not been involved.

LOL! Yeah, well a lawyer would say that, wouldn't they? The harsh
reality is that such improvements cost money, which, of course, LUL
will have considerably less of if they have to contest frivolous legal
actions brought by greedy and/or trouble-causing whingers.
--
Nick Cooper

[Carefully remove the detonators from my e-mail address to reply!]

The London Underground at War:
http://www.cwgcuser.org.uk/personal/...ra/lu/tuaw.htm
625-Online - classic British television:
http://www.625.org.uk
'Things to Come' - An Incomplete Classic:
http://www.thingstocome.org.uk

John Rowland wrote:

Some or most of the Stockholm system was created by blasting tunnels
through solid rock, and the running tunnels and platform tunnels have
largely been left as bare rock.

Whilst that is of interest it doesn't answer the question of how the tracks
are arranged and how wheelchair users are dealt with in an emergency.

Is there anyone who knows?

This subject line is getting a little heated! :-))

LUL are required by law to give access to Disabled passengers under this new
Act.

I assume the Act gave a time period for this to be done.

LUL probably received no extra funding to pay for this large scale work.

Therefore it hasn't been done.

Do we really expect it would be any other way? :-))

Shall we now go onto slam door trains?

Steve


"Nick Cooper" wrote in
message ...
On 8 Apr 2004 18:25:35 -0700, (Jeremy Barker)
wrote:

David Hansen wrote in message
. ..
On Thu, 8 Apr 2004 07:17:38 +0100 someone who may be "John Rowland"
wrote this:-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/3595351.stm

London Underground (LU) has been warned that it could be sued by
disabled
people if it does not improve access for them by October.
By then the part of the Disability Discrimination Act which governs
access
to transport will come into force.

A lawyer's money making scheme. The Act requires modifications that
are reasonable, which is right. What is wrong is paying lawyers to
argue over what is reasonable.

I'm afraid I would strongly disagree. While in principle it should
seem easy to determine what constitutes "reasonable" it isn't always
clear cut. And it can have significant benefits for the disabled
community. For example, the charity I work for took a case against
GNER on behalf of a disabled client which resulted in them changing
their disabled passenger policy. I rather doubt that would have
happened if one of my fellow lawyers had not been involved.

LOL! Yeah, well a lawyer would say that, wouldn't they? The harsh
reality is that such improvements cost money, which, of course, LUL
will have considerably less of if they have to contest frivolous legal
actions brought by greedy and/or trouble-causing whingers.
--
Nick Cooper

[Carefully remove the detonators from my e-mail address to reply!]

The London Underground at War:
http://www.cwgcuser.org.uk/personal/...ra/lu/tuaw.htm
625-Online - classic British television:
http://www.625.org.uk
'Things to Come' - An Incomplete Classic:
http://www.thingstocome.org.uk

(Nick Cooper) wrote in message ...

By October? Unrealistic expectations?!
--
Nick Cooper

They may be unrealistic but the act has been known about for years. I
have no doubt that TFL / LUL have staff dedicated to this sole subject
so if things have not been prepared then . . .

Does anyone know if work has / is / will be done ? I know the politics
of this subject are far greater than the trivial way I reply and is an
emotive subject for both sides, I show an "interest" as my partner
works in this field and have many long and intersting "discussions"
with her.

Fat Richard

"Andrew P Smith" wrote in message
...
how do they get across the gap on curved platforms to the
carriage?

Gap fillers, like those at South Ferry on the New York subway? For those
that haven't seem them, these consist of an area of platform comprised of
many parallel steel bars, running back from the edge of the platform edge
for a metre or so, and wide enough to cover the width of the open doors when
the train stops. The bars are in two sets, alternate ones being fixed and
movable, when the train arrives the movable set moves forward to fill the
gap between the train and the platform edge. There are chains at the sides
of them at various hights, to prevent passengers falling off the side.
Probably be banned of safety grounds here. The bars might need to be at a
closer pitch than those in New York, to prevent a wheel from falling down
the gap between them when extended. The New York ones are about the size of
the cleats on the steps on the old 'wooden' escalators.

And the disabled lobby want it fixed by October? It would take that long
to work out some potential access routes at the stations, let alone
tender the work etc.

Not to mention where you would find the engineers qualified to design,
build, install, test and certify all of those lifts.

In article , Nick Cooper nick.cooper-
writes

LOL! Yeah, well a lawyer would say that, wouldn't they? The harsh
reality is that such improvements cost money, which, of course, LUL
will have considerably less of if they have to contest frivolous legal
actions brought by greedy and/or trouble-causing whingers.

But if an action is genuinely frivolous or vexatious, LUL could expect
to be awarded costs, surely? And if not, LUL could do their cause a lot
of good if they worked proactively with recognised groups representing
the disabled.

--
Julian Hayward 'Booles' on FIBS
+44-1480-210097 http://www.ratbag.demon.co.uk/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty
recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the
dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with
open eyes, to make it possible. - T. E. Lawrence
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

On 9/4/04 8:57 am, in article , "Clive D.
W. Feather" wrote:

In article , Ian Jelf
writes
By the way, anecdotal evidence suggested that people in wheelchairs
travel free on TfL buses. But none of the drivers (nor one inspector)
were absolutely sure and I couldn't find it written down anywhere. One
driver even said he thought that one helper was carried free as well.
Ideas anyone?

The other day I boarded a bus and the leaflet rack behind the driver
held booklets entitled "A staff guide to ticketing on London's buses"
dated January 2004 (on the back it has the code TfL2586.11.03).

Page 23: Disabled Persons' freedom pass [...] Allows free travel on all
bus services within Greater London, and on a number of bus services
beyond Greater London, operated as part of the London bus network; at
all times.

Page 26: *Any* passenger in a wheelchair can travel free, at any time,
on wheelchair accessible buses. On dual-door vehicles, where the
wheelchair ramp is fitted at the middle doors, passengers in wheelchairs
*must* board/alight through the middle doors only. Only one wheelchair
may be carried at a time. [Emphasis in original.]



Does anybody why wheelchair users are allowed to travel for free?

Actually, before you do, let me make one thing clear - I am all for making
travel in London more accessible for wheelchair-bound and disabled people. I
think we all agree on this point - why should they be discriminated against?

But I have a problem with the fact that they are allowed to travel free? Is
this not rather discriminatory in itself?


Steve.

On Fri, 09 Apr 2004 13:42:12 GMT, Steve wrote:
Does anybody why wheelchair users are allowed to travel for free?

I imagine it's rather hard or time-consuming for the driver to
get out, walk to the wheelchair space in the middle of the bus,
ask for a ticket, and return to the driving seat. Particularly
if the bus is busy with standing customers between the driver
and the middle doors. It's probably easier just to take them.

--
Flash Wilson
http://www.gorge.org
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I am a hostage to my .inbox.

Colin Rosenstiel writes:
How many other metro systems have full wheelchair access then?

Or, more to the point, how many built before, say, 1980?

In Toronto, where most of the system opened between 1954 and 1978,
conversion of subway stations for wheelchair access began in the
mid-1990s. Of 63 stations (if I count correctly) on the subway and
Scarborough RT (DLR-like) line then existing, about 1/4 * have
been converted. Mostly this means adding elevators (lifts), some-
times several in a station, but changes to the fare barriers are
also required, and new passages to reach the elevators. The con-
struction work is typically performed by small teams owing to the
confined spaces, and it takes a couple of years to convert a station.

The elevators normally used are largish ones that would hold about
12 people if there are no wheelchairs in them, and are open to the
general public. A few are smaller. The vertical travel is fairly
short in almost all cases; Toronto has only a few deep stations.

All stations opened since this process began have been wheelchair-
accessible from the outset. On older trains, wheelchair users go in
the standing room; on newer ones (now about 2/3 of the fleet) there
are places where seats can be folded up to make a wheelchair space,
with fixtures to anchor the wheelchair into place.

*I can think of 13 for sure, and two more that I would expect to have
been converted but I don't normally get to them; and there may be
a small number of other ones that I didn't think of. I also know of
3 stations where conversion is in progress right now.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "You are not the customer,
you are the product."

My text in this article is in the public domain.

Has proper consideration been given to what would happen in a "panic"
evacuation from below ground if wheelchairs were present? Perhaps someone
has looked at this and concluded that, despite the Act, it would be better
to delay the adaptation of LUL stations for wheelchairs. Would it not be
more sensible to have a system of dial-up buses specially adapted for
wheelchair users thus allowing them the mobility they desire without
endangering the rest of us below ground?
MJW