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Tube Map + Property Values
Here's something I think would be interesting...
I'd like to see a tube map cut into zones representing the property values of the area around the tube station. I don't know London that well, but I know places like Amersham and Cockfosters are pretty wealthy areas, in addition to the obvious central section. I've heard areas around Limehouse and Westferry are rather poor and depressed areas, for example. Could anyone whip up something like this? It would really help someone like me, who loves the tube and wants to explore London using it, but doesn't want to get off at a shady place and get mugged. Jonathan Osborne |
Tube Map + Property Values
In message , Jonathan Osborne
writes Here's something I think would be interesting... I'd like to see a tube map cut into zones representing the property values of the area around the tube station. I don't know London that well, but I know places like Amersham and Cockfosters are pretty wealthy areas, in addition to the obvious central section. I've heard areas around Limehouse and Westferry are rather poor and depressed areas, for example. Could anyone whip up something like this? It would really help someone like me, who loves the tube and wants to explore London using it, but doesn't want to get off at a shady place and get mugged. I've never seen such a map and can't imagine how you'd compile one easily. Perhaps the best guide is "Where to Live in London", a book published by the London Evening Standard which take a remarkably comprehensive and objective view on what areas are like throughout the Capital. One final word of caution. Don't assume that using someone else's (subjective) opinion will somehow protect you from being mugged. Although some places are certainly much more unpleasant than others, It's quite possible to walk around Hackney or Bethnal Green and *not* be mugged, just like it's possible to *be* mugged in Kensington or Bromley. (I'm regularly asked about this sort of thing by clients and although I fully understand the thinking behind the question, if you stop and think about it for a moment, any answer is effectively worthless because going out anywhere at any time is some sort of "risk".) If you love the Tube and presumably London, go out and enjoy it. If you're especially bothered take a friend and/or confine yourself to daylight hours. But above all, as you said yourself: enjoy it! -- Ian Jelf, MITG, Birmingham, UK Registered "Blue Badge" Tourist Guide for London & the Heart of England http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk |
Tube Map + Property Values
On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 at 13:40:57, Jonathan Osborne
wrote: Here's something I think would be interesting... I'd like to see a tube map cut into zones representing the property values of the area around the tube station. I don't know London that well, but I know places like Amersham and Cockfosters are pretty wealthy areas, in addition to the obvious central section. I've heard areas around Limehouse and Westferry are rather poor and depressed areas, for example. Westferry's far from poor, at least, what I've seen of it! Could anyone whip up something like this? It would really help someone like me, who loves the tube and wants to explore London using it, but doesn't want to get off at a shady place and get mugged. You're basically likely to get mugged if you wander around looking lost, or use your mobile phone in an obvious place. If you walk around looking as though you know where you're going, you are far less likely to be marked out as vulnerable. -- Annabel Smyth http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/index.html Website updated 8 March 2004 |
Tube Map + Property Values
"Annabel Smyth" wrote in message ... You're basically likely to get mugged if you wander around looking lost, or use your mobile phone in an obvious place. Flashing a rolex, whilst getting out of a taxi, fumbling with a full wallet of twenties also helps! If you walk around looking as though you know where you're going, you are far less likely to be marked out as vulnerable. Streetwise, in other words. All those children wrapped up in cotton wool these days will have some hard lessons to learn later in life. |
Tube Map + Property Values
Jonathan Osborne wrote:
Here's something I think would be interesting... I'd like to see a tube map cut into zones representing the property values of the area around the tube station. I don't know London that well, but I know places like Amersham and Cockfosters are pretty wealthy areas, in addition to the obvious central section. I've heard areas around Limehouse and Westferry are rather poor and depressed areas, for example. Could anyone whip up something like this? It would really help someone like me, who loves the tube and wants to explore London using it, but doesn't want to get off at a shady place and get mugged. You should not assume that being in an affluent area means you are safe from mugging. Quite the reverse in some areas in fact, because the muggers know that people in "wealthy" areas are more likely to be carrying desirable objects like a laptop or an iPod or the latest mobile phone. And if you think Limehouse or Westferry are poor and depressed, you ought to take a journey on the DLR sometime soon. -- Richard J. (to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address) |
Tube Map + Property Values
"Jonathan Osborne" wrote in message
... It would really help someone like me, who loves the tube and wants to explore London using it, but doesn't want to get off at a shady place and get mugged. Speaking as a 6 foot white man in his late 30s who typically carries a plastic bag.. The dangerous parts of London are quiet and suffer from poor transport links. The immediate vicinites of tube stations do not qualify. The only real exception to this is Brixton, which I have always found to have a mildly menacing atmosphere, but so long as you leave the station and walk briskly like you know where you are going, and do not allow yourself to be seen using a map either on the train after Stockwell or after leaving the train, you will be fine there in daytime or even up to about midnight. Don't walk into any council housing estates at any time of day or night. Don't walk canal towpaths alone in any neighbourhood, no matter how affluent it might seem. Don't explore the abandoned railways in the Surrey Quays area alone. I've heard the Finsbury Park - Highgate abandoned railway is also a muggers paradise. NEVER walk down Cold Blow Lane without at the very least a nuclear deterrent. Don't wear a suit. Certain stations at the southern end of the Northern Line have next train indicators in the ticket hall. This is because passengers were being mugged on the platforms, so prefer to wait in the ticket hall until the train is due. This is probably only a problem late at night. Having said that, the one time I was nearly mugged in London was on a platform at Clapham Junction not long after the evening rush hour... but I was wearing a suit. -- John Rowland - Spamtrapped Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001 http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood. That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line - It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes |
Tube Map + Property Values
In message , John Rowland
writes Don't walk into any council housing estates at any time of day or night. I often do that. Don't walk canal towpaths alone in any neighbourhood, no matter how affluent it might seem. And that. Don't explore the abandoned railways in the Surrey Quays area alone. I've not done that but have always meant to. I've heard the Finsbury Park - Highgate abandoned railway is also a muggers paradise. Ditto this. Don't wear a suit. I'm usually wearing a smart blazer, collar and tie. Mind you, I suppose having 30 - 40 people following attentively behind me helps....... :-) -- Ian Jelf, MITG, Birmingham, UK Registered "Blue Badge" Tourist Guide for London & the Heart of England http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk |
Tube Map + Property Values
"Richard J." wrote in message ... Jonathan Osborne wrote: Here's something I think would be interesting... I'd like to see a tube map cut into zones representing the property values of the area around the tube station. I don't know London that well, but I know places like Amersham and Cockfosters are pretty wealthy areas, in addition to the obvious central section. I've heard areas around Limehouse and Westferry are rather poor and depressed areas, for example. Could anyone whip up something like this? It would really help someone like me, who loves the tube and wants to explore London using it, but doesn't want to get off at a shady place and get mugged. You should not assume that being in an affluent area means you are safe from mugging. Quite the reverse in some areas in fact, because the muggers know that people in "wealthy" areas are more likely to be carrying desirable objects like a laptop or an iPod or the latest mobile phone. And if you think Limehouse or Westferry are poor and depressed, you ought to take a journey on the DLR sometime soon. Well, if I spoke wrong, I apologize. What I want is just a map for the sake of having a map -- nevermind the phantom muggings! :) My friend just got back from three months' study in London and he said the Limehouse looked shady. Mind you, he lived in Knightsbridge the entire time, so it could be a question of relativity. I suppose I could just use a website that lists homes and flats for sale, and go by the prices. Maybe I'll do this one of these days when I'm bored. Jonathan Osborne |
Tube Map + Property Values
On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 23:17:17 +0100 John Rowland
said... Don't walk into any council housing estates at any time of day or night. So what are people who live on those estates supposed to do to? -- Phil Richards London, N4 |
Tube Map + Property Values
"Phil Richards" wrote in message
T... On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 23:17:17 +0100 John Rowland said... Don't walk into any council housing estates at any time of day or night. So what are people who live on those estates supposed to do to? Get mugged! I wasn't suggesting that instant death would follow if he set foot in a housing estate, just that he can drastically limit his probability of being a victim if he uses a little sense before deciding where to walk. -- John Rowland - Spamtrapped Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001 http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood. That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line - It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes |
Tube Map + Property Values
"John Rowland" wrote in message ... Don't walk into any council housing estates at any time of day or night. So what are people who live on those estates supposed to do to? Get mugged! Or, more likely, mug. BTN |
Tube Map + Property Values
On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 at 23:17:17, John Rowland
wrote: The dangerous parts of London are quiet and suffer from poor transport links. The immediate vicinites of tube stations do not qualify. The only real exception to this is Brixton, which I have always found to have a mildly menacing atmosphere, but so long as you leave the station and walk briskly like you know where you are going, and do not allow yourself to be seen using a map either on the train after Stockwell or after leaving the train, you will be fine there in daytime or even up to about midnight. Oddly, I prefer Brixton to Clapham North, which I do dislike, especially walking down that horrid spiral staircase. I'll use it if I must, but I'd rather go to Brixton (but life is too short to bother changing at Stockwell unless I really have to go into Brixton first!) At least Brixton has plenty of staff about, and rather obvious CCTVs. -- Annabel Smyth http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/index.html Website updated 8 March 2004 |
Tube Map + Property Values
Annabel Smyth wrote the following in:
On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 at 23:17:17, John Rowland wrote: The dangerous parts of London are quiet and suffer from poor transport links. The immediate vicinites of tube stations do not qualify. The only real exception to this is Brixton, which I have always found to have a mildly menacing atmosphere, but so long as you leave the station and walk briskly like you know where you are going, and do not allow yourself to be seen using a map either on the train after Stockwell or after leaving the train, you will be fine there in daytime or even up to about midnight. Oddly, I prefer Brixton to Clapham North, which I do dislike, especially walking down that horrid spiral staircase. I'll use it if I must, but I'd rather go to Brixton (but life is too short to bother changing at Stockwell unless I really have to go into Brixton first!) At least Brixton has plenty of staff about, and rather obvious CCTVs. Highbury and Islington (silverlink platforms) is a rather unpleasant place to wait for a train, although entertainment is provided in the form of occasional violent spectacles. I also find the experience of catching the North London Line quite unpleasant. I had a rather scary journey once where a man seemed to spend the entire journey eyeing up my bike for stealability. That made me decide that taking my bike on the North London line at 11:00 at night was probably a bad idea, although if I'd been sensible I'd have realised that a lot sooner. -- message by Robin May, enforcer of sod's law. "Dust Hill guy likes the Gordon clock" "You MUST NOT drive dangerously" - the Highway Code Spelling lesson: then and than are different words. |
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"Robin May" wrote in message . 4... The dangerous parts of London are quiet and suffer from poor transport links. The immediate vicinites of tube stations do not qualify. The only real exception to this is Brixton, which I have always found to have a mildly menacing atmosphere, but so long as you leave the station and walk briskly like you know where you are going, and do not allow yourself to be seen using a map either on the train after Stockwell or after leaving the train, you will be fine there in daytime or even up to about midnight. Oddly, I prefer Brixton to Clapham North, which I do dislike, especially walking down that horrid spiral staircase. I'll use it if I must, but I'd rather go to Brixton (but life is too short to bother changing at Stockwell unless I really have to go into Brixton first!) At least Brixton has plenty of staff about, and rather obvious CCTVs. Highbury and Islington (silverlink platforms) is a rather unpleasant place to wait for a train, although entertainment is provided in the form of occasional violent spectacles. I also find the experience of catching the North London Line quite unpleasant. I had a rather scary journey once where a man seemed to spend the entire journey eyeing up my bike for stealability. That made me decide that taking my bike on the North London line at 11:00 at night was probably a bad idea, although if I'd been sensible I'd have realised that a lot sooner. IMHO, the most threatening part of the tube network is the Northern end of the Bakerloo Line. Wembley Central is a nasty ghetto, Harlesden isn't much better, and the walk from the platforms to the street at Willesden Junction is also unpleasant. But there are little-used mainline stations in London which are worse. Loughborough junction is utterly derilect, and Streatham is now pretty menacing. BTN |
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On Tue, 20 Apr 2004, Ben Nunn wrote:
"John Rowland" wrote in message ... Don't walk into any council housing estates at any time of day or night. So what are people who live on those estates supposed to do to? Get mugged! Or, more likely, mug. Oh, yes, that's right, over 60-70% of people who live on council estates are muggers (presumbly, the rest are too busy dealing drugs or stealing cars to bother). Well-known fact. Christ. People like you and me find council estates scary because they're alien to us - they're not like the places where we grew up, and the people there aren't like the people we grew up with. This has absolutely nothing to do with their actual safety. tom -- NOW ALL ASS-KICKING UNTIL THE END |
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Ben Nunn wrote:
But there are little-used mainline stations in London which are worse. Loughborough junction is utterly derilect, and Streatham is now pretty menacing. bites What's wrong with Streatham? It's pretty unclean, but I never feel unsafe there (although that may be because I live there and go through it twice a day ;) ). Like Brixton it opens onto a busy street, and so with the old safety in numbers principle, which may or may not be illfounded in this case, I feel ok. Been quite interesting reading this thread and see some people innocently lurching from one generalisation to the other without seemingly really meaning it or wishing to insult any social group. |
Tube Map + Property Values
On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 13:40:57 -0500, "Jonathan Osborne"
wrote: I'd like to see a tube map cut into zones representing the property values of the area around the tube station. I don't know London that well, but I know places like Amersham and Cockfosters are pretty wealthy areas, in addition to the obvious central section. I've heard areas around Limehouse and Westferry are rather poor and depressed areas, for example. Could anyone whip up something like this? It would really help someone like me, who loves the tube and wants to explore London using it, but doesn't want to get off at a shady place and get mugged. I suggest having a read of "The New London Property Guide 04/05" by Carrie Segrave - this should give you a greater idea about areas in London, property prices, housing styles, transport links and the like. Cheers, Jason. |
Tube Map + Property Values
On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 23:17:17 +0100, "John Rowland"
wrote: "Jonathan Osborne" wrote in message ... It would really help someone like me, who loves the tube and wants to explore London using it, but doesn't want to get off at a shady place and get mugged. Speaking as a 6 foot white man in his late 30s who typically carries a plastic bag.. [snip details of avoidance tactics] I'm genuinely surprised to see that list - I thought you made of stronger stuff John!. I suppose one or two of the entries like wandering around the North Peckham estate looking like a lost sheep or else walking along deserted, unfamiliar canal towpaths make sense. I have to say that it doesn't enter my head as to whether somewhere is intrinsically "dangerous" or not if I am out and about on my travels. I'm not saying there are not areas where the risk of crime is greater but the underlying issue seems to be the level of familiarity a person has with an area. The more familiar it is the less risky it seems to be. Of course the OP is stuck in a slight trap in that he seems unwilling to venture off exploring without knowing he will be safe but he will never feel safe because he will never build up his familiarity with a place. I once went for a ride about on the New York Subway - I ended up changing lines at a station - Bed Sty - in Brooklyn which I was later told was the murder centre of New York. I had no idea that I was going to an area with that reputation but I just made sure I looked like I knew where I was going, followed the signs and looked confident. I lived to tell the tale - same ethos applies to wandering around the Paris suburbs, San Francisco, Sydney or wherever. The reality is that almost all of London carries some risk of encountering crime or some lunatic who may stab your eyes out. However a huge proportion of the population avoids the risk every day of their lives because they are streetwise and alert or else in so much of a dream they'd never notice. I find a simple way to build confidence is not to go by Tube but to ride around by bus - pick your routes so they go from one town centre to another and you get to look at the areas in between in safety. You build your familiarity, you can quietly and safely trace your route on an A-Z and you then develop a mental map of Greater London. Using the Tube then becomes easier because you know what each area looks like having already been there by bus. It's the only way I "learnt" London when I first moved here. If you want to learn London pick on some big bus routes like the 13, 113, 15, 14, 16, 82, 22, 38, 73, 36 (eek Peckham!), 29 and go for a ride from Central London to the end of the route. Route 18 running through Harlesden / Stonebridge estate to Sudbury will be an eye opener for you though :-) -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
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On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 at 14:46:22, Ben Nunn wrote:
But there are little-used mainline stations in London which are worse. Loughborough junction is utterly derilect, and Streatham is now pretty menacing. LJ is a lot better than it was 3-4 years ago, they seem to have refurbished it. Streatham is, I agree, vile. I get a train from there 2 mornings/week, and there is nowhere decent to wait - lots of people wait upstairs until the train is actually approaching. But you can scarcely call it little-used, though - there are always loads of people waiting for the 10.04, and in the evenings, you have to queue to get out! But, oh, THAMESLINK!!!! Why is it that the 10.04, which is the train I try to catch, is almost invariably late? The one day it wasn't, I missed it (sods' law!)..... -- Annabel Smyth http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/index.html Website updated 8 March 2004 |
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Paul Corfield wrote:
(snip) If you want to learn London pick on some big bus routes like the 13, 113, 15, 14, 16, 82, 22, 38, 73, 36 (eek Peckham!), 29 and go for a ride from Central London to the end of the route. Route 18 running through Harlesden / Stonebridge estate to Sudbury will be an eye opener for you though :-) I must try some of those! In the meantime, I would add the 48 to the "eye-opener" list, particularly the Lea Bridge Road to Clapton section. -- John Ray, London UK. |
Tube Map + Property Values
John Ray wrote: Paul Corfield wrote: (snip) If you want to learn London pick on some big bus routes like the 13, 113, 15, 14, 16, 82, 22, 38, 73, 36 (eek Peckham!), 29 and go for a ride from Central London to the end of the route. Route 18 running through Harlesden / Stonebridge estate to Sudbury will be an eye opener for you though :-) I must try some of those! In the meantime, I would add the 48 to the "eye-opener" list, particularly the Lea Bridge Road to Clapton section. Oh yeah, I did that last week. Try the N26 between Hackney Wick and Leyton! Dave (Actually the 97 from Leyton to Walthamstow wasn't too hot a few mninutes ago either!) |
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"Tom Anderson" wrote in message
... People like you and me find council estates scary because they're alien to us - they're not like the places where we grew up, and the people there aren't like the people we grew up with. This has absolutely nothing to do with their actual safety. I'm not entirely sure if that was partly aimed at me... but I spent my formative years a few hundred yards from Tottenham's infamous Broadwater Farm Estate, so my reason for saying that council estates are best avoided is nothing to do with ignorance. -- John Rowland - Spamtrapped Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001 http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood. That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line - It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes |
Tube Map + Property Values
"John Rowland" wrote the
following in: "Tom Anderson" wrote in message ... People like you and me find council estates scary because they're alien to us - they're not like the places where we grew up, and the people there aren't like the people we grew up with. This has absolutely nothing to do with their actual safety. I'm not entirely sure if that was partly aimed at me... but I spent my formative years a few hundred yards from Tottenham's infamous Broadwater Farm Estate, so my reason for saying that council estates are best avoided is nothing to do with ignorance. I think it was more aimed at the person who seemed to be suggesting that council estate residents are generally violent criminals. He better hope he doesn't meet me in a dark alley late at night, I'll teach him not to insult us council estate residents! -- message by Robin May, enforcer of sod's law. "Dust Hill guy likes the Gordon clock" "You MUST NOT drive dangerously" - the Highway Code Spelling lesson: then and than are different words. |
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"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
... I'm genuinely surprised to see that list - I thought you made of stronger stuff John!. I once was, but a drug addict with a knife taught me a valuable lesson. Doing necessary dangerous things shows courage, and is to be respected. Doing unnecessary dangerous things shows stupidity, and deserves no respect. I needed to go into a council estate last week - on the way in I witnessed a police chase, and shortly after that the road was shut. As soon as the road was opened I drove in and walked around. I do it when I have to. Most people have no need to go into council estates, so it is stupid for them to do it. -- John Rowland - Spamtrapped Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001 http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood. That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line - It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes |
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"John Rowland" wrote in message
... I needed to go into a council estate last week - on the way in I witnessed a police chase, and shortly after that the road was shut. I forgot to mention that the *next day* I had reason to go into a completely different council estate about 4 miles from the first one, a small council estate surrounded by mile after mile of luxurious residences, and this time my route was stopped by a police road block due to a non-fatal shooting. So my comments about council estates are not mere Daily-Express-reader paranoia. -- John Rowland - Spamtrapped Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001 http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood. That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line - It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes |
Tube Map + Property Values
On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 13:40:57 -0500, "Jonathan Osborne"
wrote: Here's something I think would be interesting... I'd like to see a tube map cut into zones representing the property values of the area around the tube station. I don't know London that well, but I know places like Amersham and Cockfosters are pretty wealthy areas, in addition to the obvious central section. Amersham isn't part of London by most definitions. It's an affluent commuter town around 30 miles out, but unlike other comparable towns it is served by the underground so appears on the tube map. Cockfosters is respectable enough but personally I wouldn't describe it as 'pretty wealthy' I've heard areas around Limehouse and Westferry are rather poor and depressed areas, for example. As others have said, you need to take a ride on the DLR with your eyes open:-) As its name suggests, Docklands is the area where London's docks used to be, and at one time most of the housing in this area was working-class housing for dock workers. However the docks became disused after world war II, largely superseded by docks at Tilbury, closer to the mouth of the Thames, which could accommodate larger ships, and since then Docklands has been redeveloped with offices and (expensive) housing. Parts of Limehouse and Westferry would have been depressed thirty years ago but not now... Could anyone whip up something like this? It would really help someone like me, who loves the tube and wants to explore London using it, but doesn't want to get off at a shady place and get mugged. Nothing like a tube map, but if you know the postcode of a place then http://www.upmystreet.com/ will give you average property prices for an area, an ACORN classification which tells you the type of area. Though I would be cautious of reading too much into this in terms of the risk of being mugged. Martin |
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"Dan Gravell" wrote in message ... Ben Nunn wrote: But there are little-used mainline stations in London which are worse. Loughborough junction is utterly derilect, and Streatham is now pretty menacing. bites What's wrong with Streatham? It's pretty unclean, but I never feel unsafe there (although that may be because I live there and go through it twice a day ;) ). Like Brixton it opens onto a busy street, and so with the old safety in numbers principle, which may or may not be illfounded in this case, I feel ok. Safety in numbers would only apply if you either lived or worked there, and were using the station in during peak times though. Go there at night - or indeed during the middle of the day - and it's almost empty apart from the occasional gang hanging around at platform level, and loitering crack-dealer in the ticket hall. Been quite interesting reading this thread and see some people innocently lurching from one generalisation to the other without seemingly really meaning it or wishing to insult any social group. It's not a generalisation to talk about how places make you feel individually. Right now, Streatham makes *me* feel somewhat threatened, so I'll normally take a bus if I'm going there. BTN |
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Ben Nunn wrote:
Go there at night - or indeed during the middle of the day - and it's almost empty apart from the occasional gang hanging around at platform level, and loitering crack-dealer in the ticket hall. Not experienced that myself. I think the same sort of "gangs" you're discussing hang about on my road, but they're hardly threatening, just kids. I don't know what distinguishing features all crack dealers have so I wouldn't know one if I saw one. Dan |
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Dan Gravell wrote the following
in: I don't know what distinguishing features all crack dealers have so I wouldn't know one if I saw one. They all sell crack. -- message by Robin May, enforcer of sod's law. "Dust Hill guy likes the Gordon clock" "You MUST NOT drive dangerously" - the Highway Code Spelling lesson: then and than are different words. |
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On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 23:48:15 +0100, John Ray
wrote: Paul Corfield wrote: If you want to learn London pick on some big bus routes like the 13, 113, 15, 14, 16, 82, 22, 38, 73, 36 (eek Peckham!), 29 and go for a ride from Central London to the end of the route. Route 18 running through Harlesden / Stonebridge estate to Sudbury will be an eye opener for you though :-) I must try some of those! In the meantime, I would add the 48 to the "eye-opener" list, particularly the Lea Bridge Road to Clapton section. As someone who does part of this route infrequently - what in particular are you attempting to highlight here? Am wondering what I've missed! Cheers, Jason. |
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On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 01:05:13 +0100, "John Rowland"
wrote: "Paul Corfield" wrote in message .. . I'm genuinely surprised to see that list - I thought you made of stronger stuff John!. I once was, but a drug addict with a knife taught me a valuable lesson. OK - I can respect that. Doing necessary dangerous things shows courage, and is to be respected. Doing unnecessary dangerous things shows stupidity, and deserves no respect. I needed to go into a council estate last week - on the way in I witnessed a police chase, and shortly after that the road was shut. As soon as the road was opened I drove in and walked around. I do it when I have to. Most people have no need to go into council estates, so it is stupid for them to do it. I think I disagree with the use of the word "stupid". I don't really want to get into semantics but "ill advised" might give a better meaning. I know what you are saying but your concerns are helping to reinforce the ghetto attitude that increasingly pervades this country. Please note I am not having a go at *you* with my comments. We are accepting by default that it is somehow "right" for non locals not to go and see a council estate or visit it. This means that those who do live there get their ghetto mentality re-inforced. And consequentially those people who live in "better" places feel smugger and more self justified in avoiding the council estates. I find it all very sad as I see it as one of my human rights to be able to go where I want (within reason) unhindered and under the protection of the law (and police officers). -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
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On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 14:02:40 +0100, Jason wrote:
On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 23:48:15 +0100, John Ray wrote: I must try some of those! In the meantime, I would add the 48 to the "eye-opener" list, particularly the Lea Bridge Road to Clapton section. As someone who does part of this route infrequently - what in particular are you attempting to highlight here? Am wondering what I've missed! I am guessing but the transition from urban Hackney to the lower reaches of the Lea Valley with canals, canal side pubs, pony trekking centres and the marsh lands. Go for a walk on them - you would never know you were in London and the cycle path beside the canal is very pleasant on a warm day. Obviously you then wander into Waltham Forest which is a built up area but I always feel that it is somehow "separated" from Inner London. Certainly true if you cross from Tottenham over Forest Road with reservoirs each side with people fishing and birds skimming the water - lovely on a Summer's morning at 07.00 on the top deck of a 123 bus. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
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On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 at 18:39:45, Paul Corfield
wrote: We are accepting by default that it is somehow "right" for non locals not to go and see a council estate or visit it. This means that those who do live there get their ghetto mentality re-inforced. But unless you are visiting a particular family or individual who lives there, what are you accomplishing by just wandering round - sort of Anthropologist Visits Native Village, sort of thing. Which I am beginning to find offensive when it is a programme about how people live in Africa or Malaysia - after all, I shouldn't like to have my life shown on television for all to see. Obviously, if it's somewhere that has won several awards (and most of the houses have been sold off, and probably worth a lot more than they're worth), that's different. I frequently cut through the council estate near us to get to where I want to go, and don't have a problem with it, but I should hate to do so at night simply because it is too quiet; people stay indoors with the television on, and it is traffic-free, so there aren't loads of cars passing, as there are on the main road. Another friend, though, has absolutely no qualms. -- Annabel Smyth http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/index.html Website updated 8 March 2004 |
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Paul Corfield wrote:
On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 14:02:40 +0100, Jason wrote: On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 23:48:15 +0100, John Ray wrote: I must try some of those! In the meantime, I would add the 48 to the "eye-opener" list, particularly the Lea Bridge Road to Clapton section. As someone who does part of this route infrequently - what in particular are you attempting to highlight here? Am wondering what I've missed! I am guessing but the transition from urban Hackney to the lower reaches of the Lea Valley with canals, canal side pubs, pony trekking centres and the marsh lands. Go for a walk on them - you would never know you were in London and the cycle path beside the canal is very pleasant on a warm day. Obviously you then wander into Waltham Forest which is a built up area but I always feel that it is somehow "separated" from Inner London. Certainly true if you cross from Tottenham over Forest Road with reservoirs each side with people fishing and birds skimming the water - lovely on a Summer's morning at 07.00 on the top deck of a 123 bus. Oh! I assumed the OP was referring to the stench of poppers and skunk coming from the teenage mothers on the top deck. (At least that was my experience of the 48 on Lea Bridge Road last week.) |
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On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 20:15:44 +0100, Annabel Smyth
wrote: On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 at 18:39:45, Paul Corfield wrote: We are accepting by default that it is somehow "right" for non locals not to go and see a council estate or visit it. This means that those who do live there get their ghetto mentality re-inforced. But unless you are visiting a particular family or individual who lives there, what are you accomplishing by just wandering round - sort of Anthropologist Visits Native Village, sort of thing. Which I am beginning to find offensive when it is a programme about how people live in Africa or Malaysia - after all, I shouldn't like to have my life shown on television for all to see. Obviously, if it's somewhere that has won several awards (and most of the houses have been sold off, and probably worth a lot more than they're worth), that's different. But if I decide I want to go to Peckham to see the award winning library and then catch a bus or continue walking to the North Peckham estate because I feel like it don't I have a right to go there? If the residents get upset then tough provided I'm not being insulting or damaging their property or commiting some other crime. Plenty of people wander down my street but I don't consider I have any right at all to object to them doing so provided they aren't committing a crime. I also don't consider them to be stupid if they opt to do it either. I take your point about television about other cultures - a lot of current stuff is done with little sensitivity which makes it very intrusive. Somehow though I think your life (or something probably close to it) already has been on television. I frequently cut through the council estate near us to get to where I want to go, and don't have a problem with it, but I should hate to do so at night simply because it is too quiet; people stay indoors with the television on, and it is traffic-free, so there aren't loads of cars passing, as there are on the main road. Another friend, though, has absolutely no qualms. Well I see why you are concerned of an evening. I had the unfortunate pleasure to be a juror for a trial involving an assault. It took place on a railway (not LUL) and involved a decent young chap. The whole experience left me feeling really quite unnerved (almost certainly wrongly) about a significant proportion of our youth populace. Much of that concern has now passed by as the apparent risk highlighted by the trial hasn't materialised in my own life. Perhaps there is an advantage to not buying my local rag and reading the scandalised headlines about attacks? -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
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In message , Annabel Smyth
writes But unless you are visiting a particular family or individual who lives there, what are you accomplishing by just wandering round - sort of Anthropologist Visits Native Village, sort of thing. In my case, it usually means that I'm doing a guided tour, especially if it's a Peabody Estate or something like that which I'd particularly want to show people because of the intrinsic interest. But - as usual - I accept that I'm a bit odd! :-)) -- Ian Jelf, MITG, Birmingham, UK Registered "Blue Badge" Tourist Guide for London & the Heart of England http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk |
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In article ,
Annabel Smyth wrote: But unless you are visiting a particular family or individual who lives there, what are you accomplishing by just wandering round - sort of Anthropologist Visits Native Village, sort of thing. Why can't I enjoy a public space without fear? Why shouldn't I take that short-cut? Why can't I explore the area within a mile or two of where I live? Why can't I study the architecture of 1960's council builds? Why can't I get lost? -- You dont have to be illiterate to use the Internet, but it help's. |
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Dave Newt firebird.remove.net.this.remove.me.20.den@spamgou rmet.com
wrote: Paul Corfield wrote: I am guessing but the transition from urban Hackney to the lower reaches of the Lea Valley with canals, canal side pubs, pony trekking centres and the marsh lands. Go for a walk on them - you would never know you were in London and the cycle path beside the canal is very pleasant on a warm day. Obviously you then wander into Waltham Forest which is a built up area but I always feel that it is somehow "separated" from Inner London. Certainly true if you cross from Tottenham over Forest Road with reservoirs each side with people fishing and birds skimming the water - lovely on a Summer's morning at 07.00 on the top deck of a 123 bus. Oh! I assumed the OP was referring to the stench of poppers and skunk coming from the teenage mothers on the top deck. (At least that was my experience of the 48 on Lea Bridge Road last week.) Sorry to sound so naïve, but what do poppers smell like? |
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On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 at 22:34:04, Mike Bristow wrote:
In article , Annabel Smyth wrote: But unless you are visiting a particular family or individual who lives there, what are you accomplishing by just wandering round - sort of Anthropologist Visits Native Village, sort of thing. Why can't I enjoy a public space without fear? Why shouldn't I take that short-cut? Why can't I explore the area within a mile or two of where I live? Why can't I study the architecture of 1960's council builds? Why can't I get lost? I don't know. You tell me..... -- Annabel Smyth http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/index.html Website updated 8 March 2004 |
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