In message , at
17:12:41 on Fri, 14 Dec 2018, Robin remarked:

[Dartford crossing charge]

I agree that something along the lines of pay stations at service
areas on the M2/20/25 would be a useful feature.

You can pay by phone

Do they give the phone number on the roadside signage?
--
Roland Perry

On 14/12/2018 16:43, wrote:
On Fri, 14 Dec 2018 16:10:59 -0000
"tim..." wrote:
I think you underestimate the chaos which "a few kiosks" would cause.

There'd be a bit more queuing , but I doubt it would make a huge amount of
difference. The regular users would still sail through the non toll sections.

You'd need barriers on the non-paying lanes to stop people who need to
pay trying to get through the "free" lanes. Then you will get people
reversing into the oncoming queue to get to a pay booth.




--
Tciao for Now!

John.

"Robin" wrote in message
...
On 14/12/2018 16:10, tim... wrote:


wrote in message
news
On Fri, 14 Dec 2018 13:13:53 -0000
"tim..." wrote:
wrote in message
news On Mon, 10 Dec 2018 14:57:35 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 14:33:09
on
Mon, 10 Dec 2018, Billy No Mates Billy No
remarked:

Going back to one of your earlier suggestions, it might be more
tolerable if the system was smart enough to allow a small number of
free visits by any vehicle to the zone (say, two per month), and
only
imposed a charge after that was exceeded. It would ensure that
people
regularly driving in the zone invested in clean vehicles, but rare
visitors weren't impeded.

The authorities seem wedded to the idea of nickel-and-diming everyone
whenever they can. It'd also be great to get half a dozen free trips
at
the Dartford Crossing a year, or maybe half a dozen peak-time rail
fares
at the off-peak rate.

The new dart charge was designed to make it a PITA to pay in order to
extract
fines from those who don't.

ITYF that's Cock-up, not Conspiracy

I'm not sure it is in this case. A significant proportion of the traffic
will be ad hoc trips of cars trucks and vans just passing through or
heading to
the ports who they know will probably forget (regular users will simply
have an
account). There was no reason not to retain a few pay by cash or
contactless
kiosks and its not as it its made a huge difference to the queues anyway
especially on the northbound through the tunnel which is is the real
bottleneck.

I think you underestimate the chaos which "a few kiosks" would cause.

Northbound there's enough zig-zagging of traffic trying to get into the
correct lane of a tunnel already, plus the problem of the junction
joining only a few 100 yards before the tunnel

I agree that something along the lines of pay stations at service areas
on the M2/20/25 would be a useful feature.

You can pay by phone so would this be for those who don't have a mobile
phone or those who want to pay in cash?

It'll be for those who don't know the number to phone because they didn't
have time to take it down as they drove past (if it's even there - I forget)

tim

wrote in message
news


plus the small matter of having to fund the third crossing

Widening and straightening the west bore of the Blackwall tunnel and
replacing
some of the traffics lights on the A12 with under/overpasses would
probably
cost a fraction of the price and significantly improve the northbound flow
across the river.

but nowhere near as much as a new 2+2 tunnel

tim

In message , at 17:49:25 on Fri, 14
Dec 2018, John Williamson remarked:
There'd be a bit more queuing , but I doubt it would make a huge
amount of
difference. The regular users would still sail through the non toll sections.

You'd need barriers on the non-paying lanes to stop people who need to
pay trying to get through the "free" lanes. Then you will get people
reversing into the oncoming queue to get to a pay booth.

Nonsense! You ANPR everyone - like they do now - and people who stop to
pay get ticked off the list just like people who have accounts, or pay
later online. Leaving just the people who haven't paid to be sent
penalty notices.
--
Roland Perry

On 14/12/2018 17:55, tim... wrote:


"Robin" wrote in message
...
On 14/12/2018 16:10, tim... wrote:


wrote in message
news On Fri, 14 Dec 2018 13:13:53 -0000
"tim..." wrote:
wrote in message
news On Mon, 10 Dec 2018 14:57:35 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at
14:33:09 on
Mon, 10 Dec 2018, Billy No Mates Billy No
remarked:

Going back to one of your earlier suggestions, it might be more
tolerable if the system was smart enough to allow a small number of
free visits by any vehicle to the zone (say, two per month), and
only
imposed a charge after that was exceeded. It would ensure that
people
regularly driving in the zone invested in clean vehicles, but rare
visitors weren't impeded.

The authorities seem wedded to the idea of nickel-and-diming
everyone
whenever they can. It'd also be great to get half a dozen free
trips at
the Dartford Crossing a year, or maybe half a dozen peak-time
rail fares
at the off-peak rate.

The new dart charge was designed to make it a PITA to pay in order to
extract
fines from those who don't.

ITYF that's Cock-up, not Conspiracy

I'm not sure it is in this case. A significant proportion of the
traffic
will be ad hoc trips of cars trucks and vans just passing through or
heading to
the ports who they know will probably forget (regular users will
simply have an
account). There was no reason not to retain a few pay by cash or
contactless
kiosks and its not as it its made a huge difference to the queues
anyway
especially on the northbound through the tunnel which is is the real
bottleneck.

I think you underestimate the chaos which "a few kiosks" would cause.

Northbound there's enough zig-zagging of traffic trying to get into
the correct lane of a tunnel already, plus the problem of the
junction joining only a few 100 yards before the tunnel

I agree that something along the lines of pay stations at service
areas on the M2/20/25 would be a useful feature.

You can pay by phone so would this be for those who don't have a
mobile phone or those who want to pay in cash?

It'll be for those who don't know the number to phone because they
didn't have time to take it down as they drove past (if it's even there
- I forget)


How do you take it down while driving?


--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
news
On 14/12/2018 17:55, tim... wrote:


"Robin" wrote in message
...
On 14/12/2018 16:10, tim... wrote:


wrote in message
news On Fri, 14 Dec 2018 13:13:53 -0000
"tim..." wrote:
wrote in message
news On Mon, 10 Dec 2018 14:57:35 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at
14:33:09 on
Mon, 10 Dec 2018, Billy No Mates Billy No
remarked:

Going back to one of your earlier suggestions, it might be more
tolerable if the system was smart enough to allow a small number
of
free visits by any vehicle to the zone (say, two per month), and
only
imposed a charge after that was exceeded. It would ensure that
people
regularly driving in the zone invested in clean vehicles, but rare
visitors weren't impeded.

The authorities seem wedded to the idea of nickel-and-diming
everyone
whenever they can. It'd also be great to get half a dozen free
trips at
the Dartford Crossing a year, or maybe half a dozen peak-time rail
fares
at the off-peak rate.

The new dart charge was designed to make it a PITA to pay in order
to
extract
fines from those who don't.

ITYF that's Cock-up, not Conspiracy

I'm not sure it is in this case. A significant proportion of the
traffic
will be ad hoc trips of cars trucks and vans just passing through or
heading to
the ports who they know will probably forget (regular users will
simply have an
account). There was no reason not to retain a few pay by cash or
contactless
kiosks and its not as it its made a huge difference to the queues
anyway
especially on the northbound through the tunnel which is is the real
bottleneck.

I think you underestimate the chaos which "a few kiosks" would cause.

Northbound there's enough zig-zagging of traffic trying to get into the
correct lane of a tunnel already, plus the problem of the junction
joining only a few 100 yards before the tunnel

I agree that something along the lines of pay stations at service areas
on the M2/20/25 would be a useful feature.

You can pay by phone so would this be for those who don't have a mobile
phone or those who want to pay in cash?

It'll be for those who don't know the number to phone because they didn't
have time to take it down as they drove past (if it's even there - I
forget)


How do you take it down while driving?

you don't - your passenger does - if you have one of course

On 14/12/2018 17:55, tim... wrote:


"Robin" wrote in message
...
On 14/12/2018 16:10, tim... wrote:


wrote in message
news On Fri, 14 Dec 2018 13:13:53 -0000
"tim..." wrote:
wrote in message
news On Mon, 10 Dec 2018 14:57:35 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at
14:33:09 on
Mon, 10 Dec 2018, Billy No Mates Billy No
remarked:

Going back to one of your earlier suggestions, it might be more
tolerable if the system was smart enough to allow a small number of
free visits by any vehicle to the zone (say, two per month), and
only
imposed a charge after that was exceeded. It would ensure that
people
regularly driving in the zone invested in clean vehicles, but rare
visitors weren't impeded.

The authorities seem wedded to the idea of nickel-and-diming
everyone
whenever they can. It'd also be great to get half a dozen free
trips at
the Dartford Crossing a year, or maybe half a dozen peak-time
rail fares
at the off-peak rate.

The new dart charge was designed to make it a PITA to pay in order to
extract
fines from those who don't.

ITYF that's Cock-up, not Conspiracy

I'm not sure it is in this case. A significant proportion of the
traffic
will be ad hoc trips of cars trucks and vans just passing through or
heading to
the ports who they know will probably forget (regular users will
simply have an
account). There was no reason not to retain a few pay by cash or
contactless
kiosks and its not as it its made a huge difference to the queues
anyway
especially on the northbound through the tunnel which is is the real
bottleneck.

I think you underestimate the chaos which "a few kiosks" would cause.

Northbound there's enough zig-zagging of traffic trying to get into
the correct lane of a tunnel already, plus the problem of the
junction joining only a few 100 yards before the tunnel

I agree that something along the lines of pay stations at service
areas on the M2/20/25 would be a useful feature.

You can pay by phone so would this be for those who don't have a
mobile phone or those who want to pay in cash?

It'll be for those who don't know the number to phone because they
didn't have time to take it down as they drove past (if it's even there
- I forget)


I would be very surprised if anyone who was ignorant of the toll in
advance but asked politely for the number at any of the services on the
M25/M2/M20 - or at the ferry/Eurotunnel terminal - would fail to get it,
if only from a passing member of the public.

And the phone and postal services for the Dart Charge seem quaint and
indulgent compared with the toll roads in eg Sydney where it's
electronic or else - including for visitors in hire cars.

https://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/sydney-mo...ges/index.html


https://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/sydney-mo...ges/index.html


--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 14/12/2018 21:05, Robin wrote:
On 14/12/2018 17:55, tim... wrote:


"Robin" wrote in message
...
On 14/12/2018 16:10, tim... wrote:


wrote in message
news On Fri, 14 Dec 2018 13:13:53 -0000
"tim..." wrote:
wrote in message
news On Mon, 10 Dec 2018 14:57:35 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at
14:33:09 on
Mon, 10 Dec 2018, Billy No Mates Billy No
remarked:

Going back to one of your earlier suggestions, it might be more
tolerable if the system was smart enough to allow a small
number of
free visits by any vehicle to the zone (say, two per month),
and only
imposed a charge after that was exceeded. It would ensure that
people
regularly driving in the zone invested in clean vehicles, but rare
visitors weren't impeded.

The authorities seem wedded to the idea of nickel-and-diming
everyone
whenever they can. It'd also be great to get half a dozen free
trips at
the Dartford Crossing a year, or maybe half a dozen peak-time
rail fares
at the off-peak rate.

The new dart charge was designed to make it a PITA to pay in
order to
extract
fines from those who don't.

ITYF that's Cock-up, not Conspiracy

I'm not sure it is in this case. A significant proportion of the
traffic
will be ad hoc trips of cars trucks and vans just passing through
or heading to
the ports who they know will probably forget (regular users will
simply have an
account). There was no reason not to retain a few pay by cash or
contactless
kiosks and its not as it its made a huge difference to the queues
anyway
especially on the northbound through the tunnel which is is the
real bottleneck.

I think you underestimate the chaos which "a few kiosks" would cause.

Northbound there's enough zig-zagging of traffic trying to get into
the correct lane of a tunnel already, plus the problem of the
junction joining only a few 100 yards before the tunnel

I agree that something along the lines of pay stations at service
areas on the M2/20/25 would be a useful feature.

You can pay by phone so would this be for those who don't have a
mobile phone or those who want to pay in cash?

It'll be for those who don't know the number to phone because they
didn't have time to take it down as they drove past (if it's even
there - I forget)


I would be very surprised if anyone who was ignorant of the toll in
advance but asked politely for the number at any of the services on the
M25/M2/M20 - or at the ferry/Eurotunnel terminal - would fail to get it,
if only from a passing member of the public.

And the phone and postal services for the Dart Charge seem quaint and
indulgent compared with the toll roads in eg Sydney where it's
electronic or else - including for visitors in hire cars.

https://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/sydney-mo...ges/index.html


https://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/sydney-mo...ges/index.html



Denver has something similar IIRC.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In article ,
Robin wrote:
And the phone and postal services for the Dart Charge seem quaint and
indulgent compared with the toll roads in eg Sydney where it's
electronic or else - including for visitors in hire cars. ...

Cashless tolling is increasingly popular. The 407 motorway near
Toronto has always been cashless. If you travel frequently you can
rent a transponder, otherwise they photograph your license tag and
send you a bill. If you travel semi-frequently as I do, you can
register on their web site and they'll e-mail you the bill, slightly
cheaper than a paper bill. If you're in an HGV you must have a
transponder, presumably with a large fine issued otherwise.

Some of the toll barriers on the New York Thruway, some bridges in New
York City, and the Pennsylvania Turnpike have been turned into
gantries, more or less the same deal, and the Thruway is planning to
go totally cashless in a year or so, saying that the vast majority of
users already use transponders. The roads are all well signed with
LAST EXIT BEFORE TOLL and the like so you have little excuse to be
surprised.

It does help that most of the toll agencies in the northeastern US
belong to the E-ZPass consortium so if you have a transponder from any
of them, it works on all of them. The 407's transponders are
technically compatible but for some reason they don't belong. (It's
not because they're in Canada, since the Niagara River bridges are
all E-ZPass.)

--
Regards,
John Levine, , Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly