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ELL in peril yet again
I see the East London Line has now got yet another vote of no confidence
from central government. What angers me is that noone seems to be accountable for this abject failure to build a railway that has always had surefire economic benefit. M. http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/l...ing%20Standard |
ELL in peril yet again
"marcb" wrote in message ... I see the East London Line has now got yet another vote of no confidence from central government. What angers me is that noone seems to be accountable for this abject failure to build a railway that has always had surefire economic benefit. M. http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/l...ing%20Standard Where are the Olympic Games facilities (existing or proposed) located, and how would the ELL extension serve them? |
ELL in peril yet again
marcb wrote in message ...
I see the East London Line has now got yet another vote of no confidence from central government. What angers me is that noone seems to be accountable for this abject failure to build a railway that has always had surefire economic benefit. M. http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/l...ing%20Standard I got so fed up at this that I went and got a response straight from the horse's mouth. According to the ELLP contact, all the bureaucratic crap is finished, and all they need now is formal permission to approach the construction industry for the purposes of building the extension. I guess 2010 was a good forecast after all. Brad |
ELL in peril yet again
"marcb" wrote in message ... I see the East London Line has now got yet another vote of no confidence from central government. What angers me is that noone seems to be accountable for this abject failure to build a railway that has always had surefire economic benefit. M. http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/l...ing%20Standard According to the London Development Agency (see http://www.lda.gov.uk/mediaoffice/pr...8.asp?print=1), an "Olympic Zone" is to be developed in the Lower Lea Valley, extending from the Thames to Stratford. But the proposed East London Line extension would not pass anywhere near the River Lea. Nor would it pass near any other sports facilities that would be used for the Olympic Games. The "surefire economic benefit" of the ELL extension is debatable, but that's another story. |
ELL in peril yet again
In message
able.rogers.com, David Fairthorne writes According to the London Development Agency (see http://www.lda.gov.uk/mediaoffice/pr...8.asp?print=1), an "Olympic Zone" is to be developed in the Lower Lea Valley, extending from the Thames to Stratford. But a large number of events are also expected to take place outside that area (Beach Volley Ball on Horse Guards Parade is one that takes my breath away). But the proposed East London Line extension would not pass anywhere near the River Lea. Nor would it pass near any other sports facilities that would be used for the Olympic Games. I thought the National Sports Centre at Crystal Palace (ELL) was likely to be a major Olympics venue, at least for training purposes? Also, events such as Sailing (probably Weymouth), Rowing (Eton), Shooting (Bisley) and Tennis (Wimbledon) can all be reached from Clapham Junction (ELL) - the ELLE making the east-west journey possible without crossing central London. Of course, the mystery is how well the ELLE might serve Stratford - the Jubilee exchange at Canada Water is a cheap and cheerful answer, but I suspect there was always a lingering hope of an eastward extension at Dalstan for the games. But the real mystery goes much deeper - Stratford will almost surely become an "international transport hub", but nobody seems very clear how the Lea Valley, should it become the "Olympics Zone", will connect with that international hub. In such a context, the ELLE does start to seem rather small fry! -- Paul Terry |
ELL in peril yet again
"Paul Terry" wrote in message ... In message able.rogers.com, David Fairthorne writes According to the London Development Agency (see http://www.lda.gov.uk/mediaoffice/pr...28.asp?print=1) , an "Olympic Zone" is to be developed in the Lower Lea Valley, extending from the Thames to Stratford. But a large number of events are also expected to take place outside that area (Beach Volley Ball on Horse Guards Parade is one that takes my breath away). But the proposed East London Line extension would not pass anywhere near the River Lea. Nor would it pass near any other sports facilities that would be used for the Olympic Games. I thought the National Sports Centre at Crystal Palace (ELL) was likely to be a major Olympics venue, at least for training purposes? "With the track, a 50m pool and an indoor sports hall, Crystal Palace could make an ideal holding camp for any one of the 200 countries that may complete in London in 2012." All options for training facilities for the Games are being worked on at the moment, he added, and the bid team was "delighted" that Crystal Palace has been confirmed as one of those options. The above comes from the site http://www.london2012.org/en/news/ar...2-24-12-40.htm How many "confirmed optional" passengers are we talking about here, and over what period? Also, events such as Sailing (probably Weymouth), Rowing (Eton), Shooting (Bisley) and Tennis (Wimbledon) can all be reached from Clapham Junction (ELL) - the ELLE making the east-west journey possible without crossing central London. It takes you to Clapham Junction, where you can catch a train to Woking, where you can catch a train to Weymouth! Of course, the mystery is how well the ELLE might serve Stratford - the Jubilee exchange at Canada Water is a cheap and cheerful answer, but I suspect there was always a lingering hope of an eastward extension at Dalstan for the games. That would be more relevant, but the ELL extension is supposed to go to Highbury! But the real mystery goes much deeper - Stratford will almost surely become an "international transport hub", but nobody seems very clear how the Lea Valley, should it become the "Olympics Zone", will connect with that international hub. There's no shortage of railways in that general area. How close is new the hub to Stratford station? In such a context, the ELLE does start to seem rather small fry! -- Paul Terry |
ELL in peril yet again
In message ogers.com,
David Fairthorne writes Crystal Palace How many "confirmed optional" passengers are we talking about here, and over what period? No idea - I was merely pointing out that the ELLE may well have a peripheral role in Olympics transport, since it provides a route to the National Sports Centre (and out to venues SW of London) that avoids central London. I have never thought the ELLE has any claim to being a key element in Olympics travel. There's no shortage of railways in that general area. How close is new the hub to Stratford station? The Olympic village would best be served by the hypothecated Temple Mills station (*) - unfortunately, passenger services on the Stratford - Tottenham Hale line are not too good at present :) - and the DLR has still not made up its mind whether it wants to go as far as Temple Mills. Failing that, Stratford International will be closest to the village, and Leyton (Central line) is probably closest to the more northerly venues such as the Velodrome and Baseball stadium. For the main stadium, the closest stations are Hackney Wick (hence a possible ELLE link) and Pudding Mill Lane (DLR). Stratford itself is not particularly near to any of the venues except the aqauatic centre. Of course, none of the distances from stations are vast, but I haven't seen anything that really resembles a coherent transport plan for the main Olympics complex - just the general claim that Stratford will be an international transport hub, and the hope that a station at Temple Mills would be rather useful. (*) If the NLL is diverted up the Lea Valley route to Tottenham Hale, it could actually serve two of the main Olympics sites (the village at Temple Mills and the main stadium near Hackney Wick) - a sobering thought! -- Paul Terry |
ELL in peril yet again
Paul Terry wrote in message ...
Of course, none of the distances from stations are vast, but I haven't seen anything that really resembles a coherent transport plan for the main Olympics complex - just the general claim that Stratford will be an I suspect thats because the politicians know that London has about as much chance of staging the Olympics as Eygpt does for the 2005 downhill skiing championships. Even in politics reality occasionally creeps in and there is sod all chance of the olympic commitee going ahead in a city that can't even transport its normal day to day population properly , never mind being able to manage a few hundrends of thousands (or even millions?) of extra visitors. Personally I'm not too upset about the ELL not going ahead. If it was to be a proper tube line then fine , but I'd rather my tax money was spent on something other than a bit of track to join up a load of **** poor TOCs just so they can **** up east london travel as much as they have everywhere else. B2003 |
ELL in peril yet again
Boltar wrote:
Personally I'm not too upset about the ELL not going ahead. If it was to be a proper tube line then fine , but I'd rather my tax money was spent on something other than a bit of track to join up a load of **** poor TOCs just so they can **** up east london travel as much as they have everywhere else. As far as I can tell, there isn't any "east london travel" that does the job the ELL would, and so I can't see how the ELL could **** up travel routes that don't exist. It might not improve them as much as we might hope, I suppose. Do you have a more cogent argument that you can advance? #Paul |
ELL in peril yet again
----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Terry" Newsgroups: uk.transport.london Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 6:21 AM Subject: ELL in peril yet again Thanks for the interesting information about the Olympic sites, Paul. |
ELL in peril yet again
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ELL in peril yet again
David Fairthorne wrote:
"marcb" wrote in message ... I see the East London Line has now got yet another vote of no confidence from central government. What angers me is that noone seems to be accountable for this abject failure to build a railway that has always had surefire economic benefit. M. http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/l...ing%20Standard Where are the Olympic Games facilities (existing or proposed) located, and how would the ELL extension serve them? The Olympics is a red herring - the ELL extensions are for us Londoners and were assessed independently of an Olympic bid. M. |
ELL in peril yet again
On 16 May 2004 12:40:35 GMT, Mark Hynes wrote:
[ellx] Other than the extension north the route follows existing national rail lines. Living on the proposed southern route of the extension, I've never quite been able to work out why it's been trumpted as so important. It doesn't open up many (if any, really) new journey opportunities that seem likely to have any great demand. All of the southern stations are currently commuter stations to London Bridge and London Victoria, and unsurprisingly commuter journeys to those terminuses are the vast majority of journeys. I can't really see the demand changing from that and all of a sudden there being a rush of people travelling from, say, Forest Hill to Whitechapel. Which is a journey, like most others using the proposed extension, which can already be made easily with just one change anyway. but surely the ELLX does the following? a) extend Tube services to South London b) provides a new cross London service c) provides faster journeys to Docklands via Canada Water / Shadwell stations d) provides a new access point to part of the City via the Shoreditch High St station e) provides a Tube service into the London Borough of Hackney f) provides a potential for economic development in deprived parts of London g) provides an orbital rail service across South and Inner East London h) provides a second Tube link into the Tramlink network i) potentially reduces the loading / congestion via key Central London termini and their adjacent tube stations. I don't doubt that a reasonable proportion of people will remain with the National Rail services to current termini but at least many people will be offered an increased choice of travel options with a reasonably high level of service. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
ELL in peril yet again
but surely the ELLX does the following? a) extend Tube services to South London It won't be tube, it'll be National Rail with National Rail frequencies b) provides a new cross London service Yes... bu more of a round London service c) provides faster journeys to Docklands via Canada Water / Shadwell stations Yes d) provides a new access point to part of the City via the Shoreditch High St station Not many people working in the city woudl call Shoreditch the city. Anyway, I think Shoreditch Station will be closed. e) provides a Tube service into the London Borough of Hackney See point a. Anyway, what is the use of a tube service if 90% of the people want to use it to go to the city or West end, and the tube goes somewhere else? f) provides a potential for economic development in deprived parts of London Yes g) provides an orbital rail service across South and Inner East London Yes h) provides a second Tube link into the Tramlink network not a tube i) potentially reduces the loading / congestion via key Central London termini and their adjacent tube stations. Yes I agree with the originator of this thread - I don't see what all the fuss is about. Yes, it would be nice to have, and it's a disgrace that it is being stopped (if it is) after starting work because we "can't afford" cost of 3.5 miiles of new track, but it's not a great addition to the London network, and hardly a major infrastructure build that is worth trumpeting from the rooftops.. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ |
ELL in peril yet again
Stephen Richards wrote:
I agree with the originator of this thread - I don't see what all the fuss is about. Yes, it would be nice to have, and it's a disgrace that it is being stopped (if it is) after starting work because we "can't afford" cost of 3.5 miiles of new track, but it's not a great addition to the London network, and hardly a major infrastructure build that is worth trumpeting from the rooftops.. A factor being overlooked when discussing the proposed service over the ELL is that having reconnected it to the national railway network is that through services from further afield will be able to make cross London journeys, "resident" service frequency permitting of course. |
ELL in peril yet again
Living on the proposed southern route of the extension, I've never quite been
able to work out why it's been trumpted as so important. It doesn't open up many (if any, really) new journey opportunities that seem likely to have any great demand. All of the southern stations are currently commuter stations to London Bridge and London Victoria, and unsurprisingly commuter journeys to those terminuses are the vast majority of journeys. I can't really see the demand changing from that and all of a sudden there being a rush of people travelling from, say, Forest Hill to Whitechapel. Which is a journey, like most others using the proposed extension, which can already be made easily with just one change anyway. but surely the ELLX does the following? a) extend Tube services to South London Not in a meaningful way. For any sensible journey, it would simply move a change at London Bridge to a change at Whitechapel. It would be better to scrap the Northern half of the project, abandon Shoreditch and extend the services terminating at Tower Hill and Whitechapel to the South Central (then there would be serious new journey opporunities - a one seat ride to the middle of things at Charing X Embankment and losing one connection from any journeys involving the ECML, MML, WCML, or GWML. b) provides a new cross London service No, it provides a service to stations in North London that aren't even on any main line. One of the major reasons for Thameslink being so successful is that passengers on the Midland Main Line have a single change to get to the South Coast. c) provides faster journeys to Docklands via Canada Water / Shadwell stations Depends where you're starting from. From Clapham Junction, it'd be quicker via Waterloo; from Croydon, it'd be quicker on a fast train to London Bridge; from New Cross you might as well walk to Deptford Bridge. In fact a far easier and more useful extension for South London to Docklands travel would be a DLR branch over the New Cross Rd with stations at New Cross, New Cross Gate, and Queen's Rd Peckham. d) provides a new access point to part of the City via the Shoreditch High St station It'd be almost as much a walk as from Whitechapel. e) provides a Tube service into the London Borough of Hackney Here's the real motive... pity it doesn't go anywhere like Chelney was meant to. f) provides a potential for economic development in deprived parts of London Explain. g) provides an orbital rail service across South and Inner East London Not quite. Tangential more like. h) provides a second Tube link into the Tramlink network And like the existing tube link, it has little practical use. Just as from Wimbledon, you'd ride into Waterloo unless you wanted specifically to go to Pad, I'm pretty sure anyone from Croydon would get on a Fast train to Victoria or a Thameslink rather than sit on a slow Underground train to Hackney (unless they wanted to go to Hackney. i) potentially reduces the loading / congestion via key Central London termini and their adjacent tube stations. This would be particularly useful at London Bridge, but ELLX in its current form looks like a bit of a damp squib. |
ELL in peril yet again
I've never understood why all the southern extensions will run from
New X Gate rather than being shared between New X Gate and New X. As a result passengers from outer South-East London will hardly benefit at all from the ELL extension. |
ELL in peril yet again
Gary Jenkins wrote:
I've never understood why all the southern extensions will run from New X Gate rather than being shared between New X Gate and New X. As a result passengers from outer South-East London will hardly benefit at all from the ELL extension. In a nutshell - capacity issues at Lewisham, which would be extremely expensive to resolve. -- Dave Arquati Imperial College, SW7 www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London |
ELL in peril yet again
Stephen Richards wrote:
but surely the ELLX does the following? a) extend Tube services to South London It won't be tube, it'll be National Rail with National Rail frequencies Correct on the first point - but 4tph on the other branches is a similar frequency to some outer London LUL services. And there will be 16tph through the core section. b) provides a new cross London service Yes... bu more of a round London service ....but it does get you across London. (snip) d) provides a new access point to part of the City via the Shoreditch High St station Not many people working in the city woudl call Shoreditch the city. Anyway, I think Shoreditch Station will be closed. Shoreditch High St, where the new station will be located, is certainly quite close to the City (about 10 minutes' walk from Livepool St?) and I believe some new developments are spreading out of the City in this direction. The existing Shoreditch station will close, to be replaced by the new Shoreditch High St station further west. e) provides a Tube service into the London Borough of Hackney See point a. Anyway, what is the use of a tube service if 90% of the people want to use it to go to the city or West end, and the tube goes somewhere else? Hackney has a rail link directly into the City. OK, it doesn't have a direct service to the West End - but such a route will be extremely expensive and is already being planned (Crossrail 2). This will certainly be a good link to *Docklands*. h) provides a second Tube link into the Tramlink network not a tube Again true - many people don't seem to realise this! i) potentially reduces the loading / congestion via key Central London termini and their adjacent tube stations. Yes Recent modelling predicted that 5,000 passengers will be removed from each of Waterloo and London Bridge stations - presumably passengers travelling to Docklands, who will use the less-used Canada Water station or Shadwell instead. I agree with the originator of this thread - I don't see what all the fuss is about. Yes, it would be nice to have, and it's a disgrace that it is being stopped (if it is) after starting work because we "can't afford" cost of 3.5 miiles of new track, but it's not a great addition to the London network, and hardly a major infrastructure build that is worth trumpeting from the rooftops.. There are two major points which haven't been mentioned. Price - the ELL avoids Zone 1. At current season ticket prices, someone travelling between two Zone 2 stations - for example Clapham Junction and Canary Wharf - could save themselves *£416* per year by taking the ELL. Passengers from West Croydon to Canary Wharf would save £548. If that's not a major point, I don't know what is. Part of the ELL's economic regeneration aspect is that it makes travelling cheaper for passengers from some depressed inner-city areas like Hackney. Orbirail - Construction of these links is the most important step to Orbirail, orbital services via Willesden Junction, Clapham Junction, Highbury, the NLL and ELLX. Journeys between opposite sides of London might still be faster via the centre (although some people will appreciate the not having to change) - but this orbital route connects some major centres, and once again, the price factor comes into play. -- Dave Arquati Imperial College, SW7 www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London |
ELL in peril yet again
On Mon, 17 May 2004 at 23:23:22, Dave Arquati wrote:
Recent modelling predicted that 5,000 passengers will be removed from each of Waterloo and London Bridge stations - presumably passengers travelling to Docklands, who will use the less-used Canada Water station or Shadwell instead. Were I still to be working where I am now, I'd certainly be one of them. And a rail link from Clapham High Street to Clapham Junction would be extremely useful to both my husband and me. -- Annabel Smyth http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/index.html Website updated 9 May 2004 |
ELL in peril yet again
"James" wrote in message
om... One of the major reasons for Thameslink being so successful is that passengers on the Midland Main Line have a single change to get to the South Coast. No, 95% of Thameslink journeys start or end in Zone 1. The reason Thameslink is "successful" is because it doesn't have enough seats per hour to meet the demand created by calling at up to five Zone 1 stations. Its demand does not come close to the Central and Piccadilly Lines, which serve a dozen Zone 1 stations each. -- John Rowland - Spamtrapped Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001 http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood. That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line - It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes |
ELL in peril yet again
"John Rowland" wrote in message
... No, 95% of Thameslink journeys start or end in Zone 1. The reason Thameslink is "successful" is because it doesn't have enough seats per hour to meet the demand created by calling at up to five Zone 1 stations. Its demand does not come close to the Central and Piccadilly Lines, which serve a dozen Zone 1 stations each. Isn't the reason for that that the passenger is continuing his journey by other means? From observation, there is always a considerable number of passengers getting on and off at each station between Kings Cross TL and London Bridge, and a large number who decamp at East Croydon southbound. If anything, City Thameslink, which doesn't have an interchange with other railway lines, is the lightest used. I suspect that the number of travellers whose total journey terminates at a Thameslink Zone 1 station is very small indeed. -- Terry Harper, Web Co-ordinator, The Omnibus Society 75th Anniversary 2004, see http://www.omnibussoc.org/75th.htm E-mail: URL: http://www.terry.harper.btinternet.co.uk/ |
ELL in peril yet again
marcb wrote in message ...
I see the East London Line has now got yet another vote of no confidence from central government. http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/l...ing%20Standard This story behind this thread has more anticlimaxes than the Archers - rumpty tumpty tumpty tum rumpty tumpty tum tum. Will Alastair be a darling? Will Steve be able to prove criminal negligence? Who is the they Ken is talking about? Will Seb Coe get the train to run on time? Quote Bid hangs on £1bn Tube By Ross Lydall, Evening Standard Local Government Correspondent 21 May 2004 London's struggling Olympic bid would be revitalised if a delayed £1billion Tube line extension is quickly approved, transport experts and senior politicians said today. Pressure was growing on Transport Secretary Alistair Darling to give an urgent go-ahead to the East London line extension after strong criticism of the capital's transport infrastructure from Olympics chiefs. The International Olympic Committee this week put London on the shortlist of five cities bidding to host the 2012 Games - but warned it had no chance of victory against Paris or Madrid unless rapid improvements were secured to the creaking and overcrowded Tube. Although the Government officially backs the bid to host the Games, criticism has emphasised the need to improve the package of transport measures that will definitely be in place by 2012. The East London line extension has backing in principle but is in a desperate battle against other national rail schemes to be awarded public money to make it happen. Campaigners now see it as the only way to convince the IOC that both London and the Government are serious about hosting the Games - and say construction work must start before July next year, when the Olympic host city is chosen. The extension would take the line to Highbury and Islington in the north and three stations in the south - Crystal Palace, Clapham Junction and West Croydon. This would allow direct connections with the Victoria line, North London line - which goes to the proposed Olympic village in Stratford - and suburban rail services in south London. The project has the advantage of being relatively cheap to build - while dramatically improving the transport options of the expected 500,000-a-day spectators. Many travelling from east and south-east London would not have to travel into the centre to change trains, while spectators flying to Gatwick would need only one connecting service to reach Stratford. Crucially, the extension could be finished several years in advance of the opening ceremony, unlike the eastwest Crossrail service, another delayed project. This would have linked Heathrow direct to Stratford but is now unlikely to be finished by 2013, at an estimated £10 billion cost. Ken Livingstone and his Conservative rival for Mayor Steve Norris joined forces last night to call on Mr Darling to find the money needed. Mr Livingstone said: "If they want to win the Olympics they have got to invest in transport." Mr Norris said: "Not to do the East London line has been criminally negligent. If the IOC is a spur to getting it started, so much the better." The IOC's criticism has also prompted East London line campaigners to write to London's new bid chairman, Lord Coe. Archie Galloway-chair of the East London Line Group, which includes 13 borough councils and major organisations such as Canary Wharf Ltd, London City Airport and London First, said the scheme could help rescue the Olympic bid. Mr Galloway said: "Crossrail is impossible to have done in that time. But the East London line would not only be ready, it would be tried and tested. "If they don't do the East London line I think it will kill the bid." Unquote |
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