Sorry if this is an FAQ.

My partner has just been summonsed for fare evasion, for an incident in
November last year. She was worried about something important, got on an
R-route bus near Cannon St through the middle door & forgot to get her
pre-pay ticket (one of the hexagonal ones) validated by the driver. She was
asked for her ticket, realised that she'd forgotten, apologised, showed the
inspector her pre-pay voucher & offered to pay a penalty fare. He was
perfectly polite but wouldn't take this, & took her name & address.

The magistrates' court summons came today, almost 6 months after the
incident & she is very upset. It is totally unlike her - she really is very
honest & actually had bought a book of prepay tickets not long before. She's
no previous convictions for anything whatsoever. And she really did have a
lot on her mind that day.

A couple of people have frightened her about this & said she can get a fine
of up to £1000 & a criminal record - it's the criminal record bit she is
worried about. Is this likely? (as far as I can tell it's possible, but
that's not the same thing). Also, anyone any idea what the fine on a first
offence might be?

She admits she's in the wrong & plans to plead guilty, & was also wondering
if going to court herself to explain will have any affect on the penalty.

I can understand that they are trying to cut down fare dodging, but it seems
a bit over the top to me, given that she did have a ticket. However.

I've not been long enough in London to know what happens in these cases, so
any advice welcome.

IT.

--
Evan

remove certain words in address to email

On Fri, 30 Apr 2004 19:32:17 +0000 (UTC), evan wrote:

A couple of people have frightened her about this & said she can get a fine
of up to £1000 & a criminal record - it's the criminal record bit she is
worried about. Is this likely? (as far as I can tell it's possible, but
that's not the same thing). Also, anyone any idea what the fine on a first
offence might be?

A magistrate in a previous post puts it at £150 ish.


She admits she's in the wrong & plans to plead guilty, & was also wondering
if going to court herself to explain will have any affect on the penalty.

On the fine maybe, but by pleading guilty you get the criminal conviction.


I can understand that they are trying to cut down fare dodging, but it seems
a bit over the top to me, given that she did have a ticket. However.

You need a solicitor, they may tell you that pleading not-guilty is the
best bet (after all doing this will only increase the fine slightly if it
fails), it really depends on the text of the law if having a ticket but
forgetting to use it is a valid defence, it may well be.

Steve

"Steve Peake" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 30 Apr 2004 19:32:17 +0000 (UTC), evan wrote:

A couple of people have frightened her about this & said she can get a
fine
of up to £1000 & a criminal record - it's the criminal record bit she is
worried about. Is this likely? (as far as I can tell it's possible, but
that's not the same thing). Also, anyone any idea what the fine on a
first
offence might be?

A magistrate in a previous post puts it at £150 ish.


She admits she's in the wrong & plans to plead guilty, & was also
wondering
if going to court herself to explain will have any affect on the
penalty.

On the fine maybe, but by pleading guilty you get the criminal conviction.


I can understand that they are trying to cut down fare dodging, but it
seems
a bit over the top to me, given that she did have a ticket. However.

You need a solicitor, they may tell you that pleading not-guilty is the
best bet (after all doing this will only increase the fine slightly if it
fails), it really depends on the text of the law if having a ticket but
forgetting to use it is a valid defence, it may well be.

To get a criminal conviction the prosecution have to show intent.
This is usually impossible unless the person confesses to deliberately
evading the fare, can be shown to have lied to the inspector or they
have been nabbed a few times.

It used to be that in a case like this they wouldn't even bother
with a prosecution (which is why the PF was brought in in the
first place so that they had a sanction when there was no chance
of a prosecution).

So ISTM that either there is something missing from the story
or they have no chance of winning.

See a solicitor prompto.

tim






Steve

evan wrote:
Sorry if this is an FAQ.

My partner has just been summonsed for fare evasion, for an
incident in November last year. She was worried about something
important, got on an R-route bus near Cannon St through the middle
door & forgot to get her pre-pay ticket (one of the hexagonal ones)
validated by the driver. She was asked for her ticket, realised
that she'd forgotten, apologised, showed the inspector her pre-pay
voucher & offered to pay a penalty fare. He was perfectly polite
but wouldn't take this, & took her name & address.

The magistrates' court summons came today, almost 6 months after the
incident & she is very upset. It is totally unlike her - she really
is very honest & actually had bought a book of prepay tickets not
long before. She's no previous convictions for anything whatsoever.
And she really did have a lot on her mind that day.

A couple of people have frightened her about this & said she can
get a fine of up to £1000 & a criminal record - it's the criminal
record bit she is worried about. Is this likely? (as far as I can
tell it's possible, but that's not the same thing). Also, anyone
any idea what the fine on a first offence might be?

According to a London Buses press release of 19 March 2004, which
announced an increase in the Penalty Fare on buses from £5 to £10:
"During the last 12 months alone London Buses has brought over 7,000
prosecutions, and issued 39,000 penalties. The average payment incurred
by prosecution is £100".

I don't understand why this wasn't dealt with by imposing a £10 penalty
fare. I can only assume that they've had a lot of fare evasion on that
route, and wanted a few prosecutions as a deterrent.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

"tim" wrote in message ...
"Steve Peake" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 30 Apr 2004 19:32:17 +0000 (UTC), evan wrote:

A couple of people have frightened her about this & said she can get a
fine
of up to £1000 & a criminal record - it's the criminal record bit she is


So ISTM that either there is something missing from the story
or they have no chance of winning.

See a solicitor prompto.

tim






Steve

Whilist I think £1000 fine is a bit over the top I think anyone who
evades paying on the bendy buses should be proscuted for the sole
reason of the honest people who pay a pound to travel even though
there is little chance of anyone checking their ticket.
And it does seem strange that someone so innocent should be taken such
a hard line with. Possibly there is something that the poster "forgot"
to mention about the case as in my experince it doesn't matter how
honest the person when faced with being punished for something they
have done they are usually clean as a sheet but "forgot" certian
aspects of the case.

On Fri, 30 Apr 2004 19:32:17 +0000 (UTC), "evan"
wrote:

Sorry if this is an FAQ.

My partner has just been summonsed for fare evasion, for an incident in
November last year. She was worried about something important, got on an
R-route bus near Cannon St through the middle door & forgot to get her
pre-pay ticket (one of the hexagonal ones) validated by the driver. She was
asked for her ticket, realised that she'd forgotten, apologised, showed the
inspector her pre-pay voucher & offered to pay a penalty fare. He was
perfectly polite but wouldn't take this, & took her name & address.

[snip]

on the basis of what you have written the decision does seem to be a
little over the top to me. As others have suggested the non issuing of
the Penalty Fare seems odd - there must have been something your partner
said in response to the inspector's questions that made him conclude
that there was an intent to defraud London Buses. They do have
discretion as to what they do and their questioning technique is
designed to flush out the facts and intent behind the action. I should
point out that people carrying a £10 note or book of tickets "just in
case" can be seen as a sign of having "a back up" in your pocket in case
you are intercepted even though you are a determined and regular fare
evader (note that I am not casting aspersions here).

I assume you mean she was on a Red Arrow route - the 521? Did the
driver actually open the front doors? Many of them don't in order to
force people to use the other doors. Given the route can get
extraordinarily packed it can become impossible to offer a ticket to the
driver as you physically cannot get to the front. Your partner should
try to remember the journey in detail.

I understand that a conviction for fare evasion will result in a
criminal record because of the way the legislation works with regard to
public transport. Again as others have suggested you should enlist the
services of a solicitor.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

"CJG Now Thankfully Living In The North" wrote in
message om...
"tim" wrote in message
...
"Steve Peake" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 30 Apr 2004 19:32:17 +0000 (UTC), evan wrote:

A couple of people have frightened her about this & said she can get
a
fine
of up to £1000 & a criminal record - it's the criminal record bit
she is


So ISTM that either there is something missing from the story
or they have no chance of winning.

See a solicitor prompto.

tim






Steve

Whilist I think £1000 fine is a bit over the top I think anyone who
evades paying on the bendy buses should be proscuted for the sole
reason of the honest people who pay a pound to travel even though
there is little chance of anyone checking their ticket.
And it does seem strange that someone so innocent should be taken such
a hard line with. Possibly there is something that the poster "forgot"
to mention about the case as in my experince it doesn't matter how
honest the person when faced with being punished for something they
have done they are usually clean as a sheet but "forgot" certian
aspects of the case.

I take the point, but I really don't think so. She is absolutely an honest
person all the time - I've seen her give back £10 change when she was given
a £20 note rather than a £10. This was a genuine mistake: she'd just be told
she had to come to a meeting at which she thought she was going to be made
redundant, she was thinking about that & she simply forgot to get her ticket
torn off. We went over it in a lot of detail several times as she was very
upset at the time.

Looking at what the summons says, the *inspector* has left something that
may be significant out of his statement - that she accepted she'd made a
mistake & offered to pay the penalty fare. He said "it doesn't work like
that" (exact words as far as she can remember).

She carries a book of tickets because she occasionally uses buses rather
than the tube or train.

--
Evan
remove certain words in address to email

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 30 Apr 2004 19:32:17 +0000 (UTC), "evan"
wrote:

Sorry if this is an FAQ.

My partner has just been summonsed for fare evasion, for an incident in
November last year. She was worried about something important, got on an
R-route bus near Cannon St through the middle door & forgot to get her
pre-pay ticket (one of the hexagonal ones) validated by the driver. She
was
asked for her ticket, realised that she'd forgotten, apologised, showed
the
inspector her pre-pay voucher & offered to pay a penalty fare. He was
perfectly polite but wouldn't take this, & took her name & address.

[snip]

on the basis of what you have written the decision does seem to be a
little over the top to me. As others have suggested the non issuing of
the Penalty Fare seems odd - there must have been something your partner
said in response to the inspector's questions that made him conclude
that there was an intent to defraud London Buses. They do have
discretion as to what they do and their questioning technique is
designed to flush out the facts and intent behind the action. I should
point out that people carrying a £10 note or book of tickets "just in
case" can be seen as a sign of having "a back up" in your pocket in case
you are intercepted even though you are a determined and regular fare
evader (note that I am not casting aspersions here).

I assume you mean she was on a Red Arrow route - the 521? Did the
driver actually open the front doors? Many of them don't in order to
force people to use the other doors. Given the route can get
extraordinarily packed it can become impossible to offer a ticket to the
driver as you physically cannot get to the front. Your partner should
try to remember the journey in detail.

I understand that a conviction for fare evasion will result in a
criminal record because of the way the legislation works with regard to
public transport. Again as others have suggested you should enlist the
services of a solicitor.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!


That's helpful, thanks - especially the issue of intent. We're going to see
a solicitor, specifically because we need to find out how strongly the case
agaist her has to prove "intent" - as far as I understand it's a valid issue
in some areas of the law, but not in others. And also whether the refusal to
accept her offer to pay a penalty affects things.

She didn't notice if the driver opened the front doors or not - she got on
at the middle because she was worried & upset about a meeting at which she
expected to be made redundant, & simply wasn't paying enough attention at
the time. If she'd got on at the front as normal then she'd have got her
voucher torn & been issued with a ticket.

My feeling is still that this is over the top - I think you may be right
about that particular route, which was indeed the 521.

--
Evan

remove certain words in address to email

On Sat, 1 May 2004 11:30:42 +0000 (UTC), "evan"
wrote:

Looking at what the summons says, the *inspector* has left something that
may be significant out of his statement - that she accepted she'd made a
mistake & offered to pay the penalty fare. He said "it doesn't work like
that" (exact words as far as she can remember).

So, basically you're saying that she offered to pay a penalty fare on
the spot and this was refused by the inspector, but that the latter
has omitted this detail from his statement? How exactly did he
describe the incident?
--
Nick Cooper

[Carefully remove the detonators from my e-mail address to reply!]

The London Underground at War:
http://www.cwgcuser.org.uk/personal/...ra/lu/tuaw.htm
625-Online - classic British television:
http://www.625.org.uk
'Things to Come' - An Incomplete Classic:
http://www.thingstocome.org.uk

"Nick Cooper" wrote in
message ...
On Sat, 1 May 2004 11:30:42 +0000 (UTC), "evan"
wrote:

Looking at what the summons says, the *inspector* has left something that
may be significant out of his statement - that she accepted she'd made a
mistake & offered to pay the penalty fare. He said "it doesn't work like
that" (exact words as far as she can remember).

So, basically you're saying that she offered to pay a penalty fare on
the spot and this was refused by the inspector, but that the latter
has omitted this detail from his statement?

I find this all most strange. Am I alone here in believing that this
'offer' does not help the defense, but the prosecution. An immediate
offer to pay the PF is the expected action of the habitual evader who
has just been checked for the first time. A 'genuine' forgetful person
is expected to make a long play of how they 'forgot'.

An immediate offer to pay the PF is possibly why the GF is in the
situation she is currently in. It makes no sense to me that the
inspector should leave this bit off the form as IMHO it helps him
immensely (unless, of course this form is not expected to contain
the 'prosecution details', as I've never seen one I've no idea what
info they contain).

tim


How exactly did he
describe the incident?
--
Nick Cooper

[Carefully remove the detonators from my e-mail address to reply!]

The London Underground at War:
http://www.cwgcuser.org.uk/personal/...ra/lu/tuaw.htm
625-Online - classic British television:
http://www.625.org.uk
'Things to Come' - An Incomplete Classic:
http://www.thingstocome.org.uk