Annabel Smyth:
what I have always wondered is how does New York manage to run a
24-hour service, or is this because they can often re-route trains
if they want to close a section of line ...

Dave Arquati:
Because some New York lines have four tracks (for fast/slow trains) of
which one pair can be used for all services at night.

Robin Mayes:
You'll find only the 4 track lines continue to run 7 days a week,
24 hours a day. The lines with only 2 tracks are shut at times for
engineering works and bus replacement services are offered.

True. However, almost all lines do run 24/7 *except* when this sort
of closure is needed. London's tube tunnels aren't big enough for
people working there to step aside and allow a train to pass, making
various kinds of work impossible that in New York would take place
during operating hours. (However, here in Toronto the tunnels *are*
big enough, and the TTC says they still need all the overnight shutdown
time that they now have, so maybe that's not much of a factor.)

I also recall one visit to New York on a Sunday afternoon when I was
riding on a 2-track line and saw a sizeable chunk of wood, painted
yellow and striped with black electrical tape, handed to the driver --
sure enough, it was a single-line token, and the other track was closed
while work was going on on it.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "I don't have a life; I have a program." --the Doctor
| (Michael Piller, Star Trek: Voyager, "Tattoo")

My text in this article is in the public domain.

I had asked whether the NY subway was able to stay open 24/7 because
trains could often/usually be rerouted if necessary:

Dave Arquati:
Because some New York lines have four tracks (for fast/slow trains) of
which one pair can be used for all services at night. So theoretically
engineering on Finchley Road - Wembley Park or Barons Court - Acton Town
needn't close the line (although I'm sure the HSE would disagree).


Robin Mayes:
You'll find only the 4 track lines continue to run 7 days a week, 24 hours a
day. The lines with only 2 tracks are shut at times for engineering works
and bus replacement services are offered. Aren't the 4 track lines more
separated than LUL / NR in most places, thus not having the engineering
staff subject to be hit by moving trains?

I wasn't aware of that when we travelled on an express line - it felt,
to be honest, like nothing so much as a Piccadilly Line train going
between Baron's Court and Acton Town, mostly travelling in between the
slow line tracks.

But only in New York have I seen a maintenance train running through
during normal working hours - it wasn't even late evening, as far as I
remember!

Thanks for the replies.
--
Annabel Smyth
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/index.html
Website updated 9 May 2004

In article , ()
wrote:

In article ,
(Paul Weaver) wrote:

"Respect" are promising a £1 flat fare for tube use. They want *more*
people
to use the tube.

I wonder if anyone in "Respect" has ever used the tube in the morning
rush
hour?

--
Everything above is the personal opinion of the author, and nothing
to do
with where he works and all that lovely disclaimery stuff.
Posted in his lunch hour too.



According to the Standard, TFL want to put the peak fares UP to stop
people using the tubes and go on the buses instead!

Roger

I see that there was a Letter in yesterday's Standard from Ken Livingston
saying that they had no intention that they were going to make Oyster
cards compulsory and that they weren't going to put peak fares up and that
he had already told the Standard it was a load of ******** (or something
like that!)

Roger

In message , Dave Arquati
writes
but what I have always wondered is how does New
York manage to run a 24-hour service, or is this because they can often
re-route trains if they want to close a section of line (very muddling
for visitors!), which we can't do in London?

Because some New York lines have four tracks (for fast/slow trains) of
which one pair can be used for all services at night. So theoretically
engineering on Finchley Road - Wembley Park or Barons Court - Acton
Town needn't close the line (although I'm sure the HSE would disagree).

I've seen them doing maintenance of the Atlanta Marta (which is similar
to a Met/District Line style of urban commuter railway) late in the
evening by working on one track and having alternate-working on the
other. No doubt the UK's safety mafia would disallow this!!

The trains run from about 5am to 1am.
--
Roland Perry

Because some New York lines have four tracks (for fast/slow trains) of
which one pair can be used for all services at night. So theoretically
engineering on Finchley Road - Wembley Park or Barons Court - Acton Town
needn't close the line (although I'm sure the HSE would disagree).

You'll find only the 4 track lines continue to run 7 days a week, 24 hours a
day. The lines with only 2 tracks are shut at times for engineering works
and bus replacement services are offered. Aren't the 4 track lines more
separated than LUL / NR in most places, thus not having the engineering
staff subject to be hit by moving trains?

No, they are all scheduled to run 24/7:
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/service/schemain.htm

There is no regular downtime planned into the schedules, even for 2
track lines, like the L, the Manhattan part of the 7, the M North of
Broadway/Myrtle, or the J/Z in Queens. If you'd got the impression
that 2 track lines are closed a lot, it would be because the L train
is currently being upgraded to use CBTC. Of course it does happen that
the 2 track sections tend to get closed. A Passenger Service Advisory
is then posted - this certainly doesn't happen every night or indeed
every weekend.

Of course there are also a lot of 3-track sections (mostly Els, but
also the Concourse Line), the middle track of which can be used for
peak direction express (like on the 6 in the Bronx or the 7 in Queens)
as well as providing a way of keeping service running whilst MOW are
on the tracks. The only one which really doesn't get much use is the
West End express track (D train in Brooklyn) - the trains tend to be
sent over the Sea Beach (N) Line in one direction.

As far as separation between tracks goes, it's very variable. There
are sections with curtain walls, others with columns. There are of
course areas with lots of clearance and others with very little.

Definitely dreaming.... but what I have always wondered is how does New
York manage to run a 24-hour service, or is this because they can often
re-route trains if they want to close a section of line (very muddling
for visitors!), which we can't do in London?

It's partly because of the ease of reroutes (yes, including, but not
restricted to, the 3 and 4 track sections) and partly because they
don't have a legal requirement to walk every inch of track at night.
They also have the advantage of not having a 4th Rail, so it's safe
for MOW to walk along the 4 foot.

In article , Roland Perry
writes
I've seen them doing maintenance of the Atlanta Marta (which is similar
to a Met/District Line style of urban commuter railway) late in the
evening by working on one track and having alternate-working on the
other. No doubt the UK's safety mafia would disallow this!!

Alternate working requires a sufficiency of crossovers to switch trains.
The tube lines don't have these, in general.

There's also a problem with trainstops - they need to be lowered to
prevent a train running the wrong way from "back-tripping". Except where
bidirectional working is allowed (e.g. at termini) this isn't designed
into the signalling.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

In message , Clive D. W. Feather
writes
Alternate working requires a sufficiency of crossovers to switch
trains. The tube lines don't have these, in general.

A design fault, then.

There's also a problem with trainstops - they need to be lowered to
prevent a train running the wrong way from "back-tripping". Except
where bidirectional working is allowed (e.g. at termini) this isn't
designed into the signalling.

Another fault.

[These are excusable when the tubes were originally designed for normal
working hours. I think we forget how little of life was 24x7 as recently
as 30 years ago. I could certainly drive from Cambridge to Chelmsford at
midnight and see no other car on the road. At some point this changed
radically - perhaps the tubes need to keep up.]
--
Roland Perry

In article , (Roland
Perry) wrote:

In message , Clive D. W. Feather
writes
Alternate working requires a sufficiency of crossovers to switch
trains. The tube lines don't have these, in general.

A design fault, then.

More a concept fault for tube tunnels. Not a problem with cut-and-cover
tunnels but then London's tubes aren't based on them.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In message ,
Colin Rosenstiel writes
More a concept fault for tube tunnels. Not a problem with cut-and-cover
tunnels but then London's tubes aren't based on them.

Most of the "Underground" system is either above ground, or in
twin-track cut and cover.
--
Roland Perry