On 02/06/2019 09:14, wrote:
On Sun, 2 Jun 2019 08:45:55 +0100
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 22:37:39 on Sat, 1 Jun 2019,
Recliner remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:25:49 on Sat, 1 Jun 2019,
Recliner remarked:

And now there's another contender, prepared to make even bigger losses in
the quest for market sha

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/r...s-to-drive-ube
r-off-the-road-as-cab-price-war-begins-ql50hf2d3?shareToken=ae520e4dc8d6
1cbc54da17360bf58ba6

This story mentions that Uber now takes a 35% commission from new drivers.

£7.50/hr [Uber driver quoted] and providing your own car, doesn't seem
like it's worth it to me.

That's why only immigrants will do it. It's probably a step up from a car
wash.

But I don't think Amazon delivery drivers have a much better deal.

No, I suppose not.

At least Amazon drivers now turn up in smart newish (unmarked) vans,

That may be a regional thing. My Amazon deliveries are still mainly
arriving in a beaten up and rattley ten year old car-based diesel van.
But is unmarked (by signage, anyway)

not beaten-up private cars, like some other couriers. They also don't
seem to have impossible delivery rounds, as they nearly always turn up
on the right day, and don't falsely pretend they've attempted a
delivery when they haven't (unlike Parcelforce).

I expect the Amazon drivers are tracked by their handheld devices which
may forbid the issuing of a "missed delivery" unless they are physically
on the doorstep.

The "silently post a card through the letterbox" syndrome is different,
and is more likely to be caused by the driver discovering the parcel o
his delivery list isn't in his van after all, but he has to register an
attempted delivery to make his quota. Amazon is likely better at
ensuring the vans are properly loaded at the depot.

That problem is easily solved by visiting a shop and buying the goods there.
When you have a full time job you can't wait in for some oik in a van to show
up sometime between 8am-8pm so end up collecting from the delivery office or
depot anyway. Whats the point?

The difficulty comes in several parts. The first is finding a local shop
that stocks that DVD box set (or whatever) you want. The second is
finding it at an acceptable price, with the third being all the hassle
deliberately inflicted on people buying or collecting items at shops,
with punitive parking charges and shopping streets often not even
allowing traffic into them, etc.

A week or two back, I ordered one of those little adaptors which
converts a car's 12v port into two USB sockets (for power purposes only,
of course). I could have just picked one up at the local sub-PO, believe
it or not. But there, it was £6.99. On Amazon, it was £1.99 and having
been ordered at around 01:00, it arrived at around 15:00 the same day.

Local authorities who think they are being cute by preventing business
from being conducted are often the first to decry the death of the High
Street.

On Sun, 2 Jun 2019 10:25:48 +0100
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 08:14:05 on Sun, 2 Jun
2019, remarked:
That problem is easily solved by visiting a shop and buying the goods there.

Not really, even not-that-local shops don't have most of the things I
buy online. Let alone the range of choice, or open Sundays.

Unless you're buying dilithium for a warp drive you're building in your
shed I'd be rather surprised if you couldn't find it in a shop.

When you have a full time job you can't wait in for some oik in a van to show
up sometime between 8am-8pm so end up collecting from the delivery office or
depot anyway. Whats the point?

We have neighbours, and they take parcels in. Other stuff fits through

Yeah, and then when you go and collect them the neighbours are out or, as
happened to my wife a few years back, they'd gone on holiday the same day and
she had to wait a week to get her parcel. Also we've stopped accepting parcels
for a certain neighbour who seems to order something every week, we're not the
bloody post office.

In message , at 13:56:23 on Sun, 2 Jun
2019, JNugent remarked:

I don't know what form their subsequent internal accounting
procedures take, but if it were their practice to issue invoices to
the driver, I strongly suspect that we would have heard about that by now.
Therefore you are now agreeing with my proposition that they pay the
driver only part of what they collected from the passenger. Having
deducted their commission.

Not in the slightest.

They do pay an amount to the driver. Whether that is a fixed proportion
or a flat fee based on time or mileage is more than I know. I cannot
agree that Uber pay the whole of the fare less their (Uber's)
commission to the driver for the rather obvious reason that I do not
know it to be true.

Even though you've been given plausible citations which say it is true?

Whether they pay it "on the spot", or perhaps 'at the end of the
week' or whatever, is peripheral to that particular aspect.

Is it? If you say so. I'm not convinced.

Even though you've been given plausible citations which say it is true?

There are two models possible:
* Passenger pays for the ride and the whole fare is collected by
Uber
* and sent to the driver (with Uber being in effect just a form of
* merchant services dealing with the card payment). Later, Uber sends a
* bill to the driver for his usage of their booking/billing platform.
Or,
* Passenger pays Uber for the ride, and they send him (maybe
* immediately, maybe later) a piecework payment for having done the
* driving aspect.

True enough. In either csae, Uber turns over the whole of the fare.

Now you are just being perverse. Paying the driver piece-work (if that
were the model) is absolutely not handing over the whole fare.

TheTrainline, does the train company get paid for the ticket
straight away, or does TTL have 30day (or whatever) credit with them
all. Whatever the answer, their turnover in their published accounts
is just the commission/fee element.

But they are not Uber. And Uber are going to have to argue that the
money they turn over is not part of their turnover.
The two business models are very similar.

Not at all. Does Trainline get 100% of the turnover of the TOCs running
through its accounts?

Through its bank accounts - yes. Through its trading accounts - no.

Uber certainly gets 100% of its own turnover passing through its books.

But the question is: what of the turnover of its drivers passing though
its "books", whatever the latter is supposed to mean.

Just to be clear about this: if an individual self-employed
taxi-driver (or private hire driver) turned over £85,000 and were
honest enough to report the fact, they would be forced by law to
register for VAT and to charge it on top of the fare.

But turning over £1808 a week (assuming five weeks' non-activity per
annum) would be a tall order. Not so for Uber.
Yes, I think we all understand why the £85k is important.

Uber have to collect and pay VAT (this is not automatically so for
other private hire drivers, proprietors or operators). The question is
only the quantum of their turnover.

Indeed. Is it just the commission, or also the drivers' pay.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 15:51:46 on Sun, 2 Jun
2019, remarked:
On Sun, 2 Jun 2019 10:25:48 +0100
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 08:14:05 on Sun, 2 Jun
2019, remarked:
That problem is easily solved by visiting a shop and buying the goods there.

Not really, even not-that-local shops don't have most of the things I
buy online. Let alone the range of choice, or open Sundays.

Unless you're buying dilithium for a warp drive you're building in your
shed I'd be rather surprised if you couldn't find it in a shop.

The example which for me was a tipping point involved black cup-hooks.

Several shops (including ones with only seasonal DIY sections such as
Sainsbury's) as well as regular hardware stores, pound-stores and so on
had either chrome or white, or both. None had black. It doesn't help if
I can buy chrome cup-hooks in five shops, but black ones in none.

It's also a challenge to get spare parts, even from franchised outlets.
A few years ago I needed a new glass turntable for my Panasonic
Microwave oven, and by some miracle [do you have one nearby?] there was
a Panasonic dealer in my High Street.

They sent me packing, on the grounds that all they really wanted to sell
me was a new flat-screen TV.

A year or two previously I was "forced" to buy a Panasonic laptop by
mail order from a dealership in I think Cornwall, because it was the
only one in the whole country which had availability.

When you have a full time job you can't wait in for some oik in a van to show
up sometime between 8am-8pm so end up collecting from the delivery office or
depot anyway. Whats the point?

We have neighbours, and they take parcels in. Other stuff fits through

Yeah, and then when you go and collect them the neighbours are out or, as
happened to my wife a few years back, they'd gone on holiday the same day and
she had to wait a week to get her parcel.

Obviously the relationships with your neighbours have broken down,
otherwise situations like that wouldn't happen.

Also we've stopped accepting parcels for a certain neighbour who seems
to order something every week, we're not the bloody post office.

I'm happy to accept parcels that regularly for a neighbour who I know
will claim it as soon as they arrive back home an hour or two later. Not
so much for neighbours with a track record of waiting for several days.
--
Roland Perry

On Mon, 3 Jun 2019 12:06:40 +0100
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 15:51:46 on Sun, 2 Jun
2019, remarked:
Yeah, and then when you go and collect them the neighbours are out or, as
happened to my wife a few years back, they'd gone on holiday the same day and
she had to wait a week to get her parcel.

Obviously the relationships with your neighbours have broken down,
otherwise situations like that wouldn't happen.

They broke down long before that. The problem is that these delivery guys
seem to think everyone is on good terms with their neighbour when it could
be a golden opportunity for said neighbour to screw you over.

On 03/06/2019 12:20, wrote:
On Mon, 3 Jun 2019 12:06:40 +0100
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 15:51:46 on Sun, 2 Jun
2019, remarked:
Yeah, and then when you go and collect them the neighbours are out or, as
happened to my wife a few years back, they'd gone on holiday the same day and
she had to wait a week to get her parcel.

Obviously the relationships with your neighbours have broken down,
otherwise situations like that wouldn't happen.

They broke down long before that. The problem is that these delivery guys
seem to think everyone is on good terms with their neighbour when it could
be a golden opportunity for said neighbour to screw you over.


Why am I not surprised that Neil has trouble with his neighbours!

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 03/06/2019 11:49, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 13:56:23 on Sun, 2 Jun
2019, JNugent remarked:

I don't know what form their subsequent internal accounting
proceduresÂ* take, but if it were their practice to issue invoices to
the driver, IÂ* strongly suspect that we would have heard about that
by now.
Â*Therefore you are now agreeing with my proposition that they pay the
driver only part of what they collected from the passenger. Having
deducted their commission.

Not in the slightest.

They do pay an amount to the driver. Whether that is a fixed
proportion or a flat fee based on time or mileage is more than I know.
I cannot agree that Uber pay the whole of the fare less their (Uber's)
commission to the driver for the rather obvious reason that I do not
know it to be true.

Even though you've been given plausible citations which say it is true?

Lots of incompatible things might be plausible.

"Plausible" does not mean the same as "definitive".

Whether they pay it "on the spot", or perhaps 'at the end of the
week'Â* or whatever, is peripheral to that particular aspect.

Is it? If you say so. I'm not convinced.

Even though you've been given plausible citations which say it is true?

See above.

The word "plausible" used to be a weasel word attached to con-men and spivs.
Â*There are two models possible:
Â* Â* Passenger pays for the ride and the whole fare is collected by Uber
Â*Â* and sent to the driver (with Uber being in effect just a form of
Â*Â* merchant services dealing with the card payment). Later, Uber sends a
Â*Â* bill to the driver for his usage of their booking/billing platform.
Â*Or,
Â* Â* Passenger pays Uber for the ride, and they send him (maybe
Â*Â* immediately, maybe later) a piecework payment for having done the
Â*Â* driving aspect.

True enough. In either csae, Uber turns over the whole of the fare.

Now you are just being perverse. Paying the driver piece-work (if that
were the model) is absolutely not handing over the whole fare.

I realised too late that "turns over" might be misinterpreted (whether
inadvertently or mischievously) as "handed over".

I mean that all of the money taken from the CC account of the hirer is
turned over (meaning simply "taken" or "collected") by Uber.

I hope that's clearer.

TheTrainline, does the train company get paid for the ticket
straight away, or does TTL have 30day (or whatever) credit with
them all. Whatever the answer, their turnover in their published
accounts is just the commission/fee element.

But they are not Uber. And Uber are going to have to argue that the
money they turn over is not part of their turnover.
Â*The two business models are very similar.

Not at all. Does Trainline get 100% of the turnover of the TOCs
running through its accounts?

Through its bank accounts - yes. Through its trading accounts - no.

Rubbish.

That could not be true unless trainline.com were the only way of buying
a railway ticket. And it isn't.

Uber certainly gets 100% of its own turnover passing through its books.

But the question is: what of the turnover of its drivers passing though
its "books", whatever the latter is supposed to mean.

That's a matter to be decided by HMRC and/or the courts.

Just to be clear about this: if an individual self-employed
taxi-driver (or private hire driver) turned over £85,000 and were
honest enough to report the fact, they would be forced by law to
register for VAT and to charge it on top of the fare.

But turning over £1808 a week (assuming five weeks' non-activity per
annum) would be a tall order. Not so for Uber.
Â*Yes, I think we all understand why the £85k is important.

Uber have to collect and pay VAT (this is not automatically so for
other private hire drivers, proprietors or operators). The question is
only the quantum of their turnover.

Indeed. Is it just the commission, or also the drivers' pay.

Indeed. That is the question which has to be decided by an official body
(probably the Court of Appeal, in the end).

On Sun, Jun 02, 2019 at 08:14:05AM +0000, wrote:
On Sun, 2 Jun 2019 08:45:55 +0100 Roland Perry wrote:
The "silently post a card through the letterbox" syndrome is different,
and is more likely to be caused by the driver discovering the parcel o
his delivery list isn't in his van after all, but he has to register an
attempted delivery to make his quota. Amazon is likely better at
ensuring the vans are properly loaded at the depot.
That problem is easily solved by visiting a shop and buying the goods there.
When you have a full time job you can't wait in for some oik in a van to show
up sometime between 8am-8pm so end up collecting from the delivery office or
depot anyway. Whats the point?

Taking my most recent Amazon order as an example, I probably could find
all the items in shops within a few miles, but I'd have to visit them
all in turn and spend most of Saturday doing so. Better by far to have
Amazon deliver to me. If they try to deliver while I'm out I can tell
them what day to try again (I can make sure that I'm working at home on
that day) or I can make one trip to their depot to pick everything up,
and then I can spend Saturday doing something better with my time like
cricket.

In practice, for most stuff I have them deliver to me at work, I only
have really bulky stuff delivered to me at home.

--
David Cantrell