In message , at 10:25:49 on Sat, 1 Jun 2019,
Recliner remarked:

And now there's another contender, prepared to make even bigger losses in
the quest for market sha
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/r...n=ae520e4dc8d6
1cbc54da17360bf58ba6

This story mentions that Uber now takes a 35% commission from new drivers.

£7.50/hr [Uber driver quoted] and providing your own car, doesn't seem
like it's worth it to me.

But I don't think Amazon delivery drivers have a much better deal.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:25:49 on Sat, 1 Jun 2019,
Recliner remarked:

And now there's another contender, prepared to make even bigger losses in
the quest for market sha
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/r...n=ae520e4dc8d6
1cbc54da17360bf58ba6

This story mentions that Uber now takes a 35% commission from new drivers.

£7.50/hr [Uber driver quoted] and providing your own car, doesn't seem
like it's worth it to me.

That's why only immigrants will do it. It's probably a step up from a car
wash.


But I don't think Amazon delivery drivers have a much better deal.

No, I suppose not.

At least Amazon drivers now turn up in smart newish (unmarked) vans, not
beaten-up private cars, like some other couriers. They also don't seem to
have impossible delivery rounds, as they nearly always turn up on the right
day, and don't falsely pretend they've attempted a delivery when they
haven't (unlike Parcelforce).

In message , at 22:37:39 on Sat, 1 Jun 2019,
Recliner remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:25:49 on Sat, 1 Jun 2019,
Recliner remarked:

And now there's another contender, prepared to make even bigger losses in
the quest for market sha

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/r...s-to-drive-ube
r-off-the-road-as-cab-price-war-begins-ql50hf2d3?shareToken=ae520e4dc8d6
1cbc54da17360bf58ba6

This story mentions that Uber now takes a 35% commission from new drivers.

£7.50/hr [Uber driver quoted] and providing your own car, doesn't seem
like it's worth it to me.

That's why only immigrants will do it. It's probably a step up from a car
wash.

But I don't think Amazon delivery drivers have a much better deal.

No, I suppose not.

At least Amazon drivers now turn up in smart newish (unmarked) vans,

That may be a regional thing. My Amazon deliveries are still mainly
arriving in a beaten up and rattley ten year old car-based diesel van.
But is unmarked (by signage, anyway)

not beaten-up private cars, like some other couriers. They also don't
seem to have impossible delivery rounds, as they nearly always turn up
on the right day, and don't falsely pretend they've attempted a
delivery when they haven't (unlike Parcelforce).

I expect the Amazon drivers are tracked by their handheld devices which
may forbid the issuing of a "missed delivery" unless they are physically
on the doorstep.

The "silently post a card through the letterbox" syndrome is different,
and is more likely to be caused by the driver discovering the parcel o
his delivery list isn't in his van after all, but he has to register an
attempted delivery to make his quota. Amazon is likely better at
ensuring the vans are properly loaded at the depot.
--
Roland Perry

On Sun, 2 Jun 2019 08:45:55 +0100
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 22:37:39 on Sat, 1 Jun 2019,
Recliner remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:25:49 on Sat, 1 Jun 2019,
Recliner remarked:

And now there's another contender, prepared to make even bigger losses in
the quest for market sha

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/r...s-to-drive-ube
r-off-the-road-as-cab-price-war-begins-ql50hf2d3?shareToken=ae520e4dc8d6
1cbc54da17360bf58ba6

This story mentions that Uber now takes a 35% commission from new drivers.

£7.50/hr [Uber driver quoted] and providing your own car, doesn't seem
like it's worth it to me.

That's why only immigrants will do it. It's probably a step up from a car
wash.

But I don't think Amazon delivery drivers have a much better deal.

No, I suppose not.

At least Amazon drivers now turn up in smart newish (unmarked) vans,

That may be a regional thing. My Amazon deliveries are still mainly
arriving in a beaten up and rattley ten year old car-based diesel van.
But is unmarked (by signage, anyway)

not beaten-up private cars, like some other couriers. They also don't
seem to have impossible delivery rounds, as they nearly always turn up
on the right day, and don't falsely pretend they've attempted a
delivery when they haven't (unlike Parcelforce).

I expect the Amazon drivers are tracked by their handheld devices which
may forbid the issuing of a "missed delivery" unless they are physically
on the doorstep.

The "silently post a card through the letterbox" syndrome is different,
and is more likely to be caused by the driver discovering the parcel o
his delivery list isn't in his van after all, but he has to register an
attempted delivery to make his quota. Amazon is likely better at
ensuring the vans are properly loaded at the depot.

That problem is easily solved by visiting a shop and buying the goods there.
When you have a full time job you can't wait in for some oik in a van to show
up sometime between 8am-8pm so end up collecting from the delivery office or
depot anyway. Whats the point?

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 22:37:39 on Sat, 1 Jun 2019,
Recliner remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:25:49 on Sat, 1 Jun 2019,
Recliner remarked:

And now there's another contender, prepared to make even bigger losses in
the quest for market sha

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/r...s-to-drive-ube
r-off-the-road-as-cab-price-war-begins-ql50hf2d3?shareToken=ae520e4dc8d6
1cbc54da17360bf58ba6

This story mentions that Uber now takes a 35% commission from new drivers.

£7.50/hr [Uber driver quoted] and providing your own car, doesn't seem
like it's worth it to me.

That's why only immigrants will do it. It's probably a step up from a car
wash.

But I don't think Amazon delivery drivers have a much better deal.

No, I suppose not.

At least Amazon drivers now turn up in smart newish (unmarked) vans,

That may be a regional thing. My Amazon deliveries are still mainly
arriving in a beaten up and rattley ten year old car-based diesel van.
But is unmarked (by signage, anyway)

Mine come from Hemel Hempstead.


not beaten-up private cars, like some other couriers. They also don't
seem to have impossible delivery rounds, as they nearly always turn up
on the right day, and don't falsely pretend they've attempted a
delivery when they haven't (unlike Parcelforce).

I expect the Amazon drivers are tracked by their handheld devices which
may forbid the issuing of a "missed delivery" unless they are physically
on the doorstep.

Yes, very likely. They certainly track them in real time, and so can you,
as they show them on a map when they're under ten deliveries away, and tell
you how many more they have to do before getting to you.


The "silently post a card through the letterbox" syndrome is different,
and is more likely to be caused by the driver discovering the parcel o
his delivery list isn't in his van after all, but he has to register an
attempted delivery to make his quota. Amazon is likely better at
ensuring the vans are properly loaded at the depot.

I've had more than one Parcelforce 'delivery' where no delivery was
attempted, and no postcard through the door. But on their website, they
claimed that a delivery had been attempted, and the parcel had then been
taken to the local Post Office. My guess is that the driver was running
late, and just dropped all the remaining parcels off there.

In message , at 08:14:05 on Sun, 2 Jun
2019, remarked:
£7.50/hr [Uber driver quoted] and providing your own car, doesn't seem
like it's worth it to me.

That's why only immigrants will do it. It's probably a step up from a car
wash.

But I don't think Amazon delivery drivers have a much better deal.

No, I suppose not.

At least Amazon drivers now turn up in smart newish (unmarked) vans,

That may be a regional thing. My Amazon deliveries are still mainly
arriving in a beaten up and rattley ten year old car-based diesel van.
But is unmarked (by signage, anyway)

not beaten-up private cars, like some other couriers. They also don't
seem to have impossible delivery rounds, as they nearly always turn up
on the right day, and don't falsely pretend they've attempted a
delivery when they haven't (unlike Parcelforce).

I expect the Amazon drivers are tracked by their handheld devices which
may forbid the issuing of a "missed delivery" unless they are physically
on the doorstep.

The "silently post a card through the letterbox" syndrome is different,
and is more likely to be caused by the driver discovering the parcel o
his delivery list isn't in his van after all, but he has to register an
attempted delivery to make his quota. Amazon is likely better at
ensuring the vans are properly loaded at the depot.

That problem is easily solved by visiting a shop and buying the goods there.

Not really, even not-that-local shops don't have most of the things I
buy online. Let alone the range of choice, or open Sundays.

When you have a full time job you can't wait in for some oik in a van to show
up sometime between 8am-8pm so end up collecting from the delivery office or
depot anyway. Whats the point?

We have neighbours, and they take parcels in. Other stuff fits through
the letterbox. Larger things I tend to specify "Click and Collect", so
can fetch them as easily as if that store had the stuff on the shelves
(which it never does).
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 08:43:44 on Sun, 2 Jun 2019,
Recliner remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 22:37:39 on Sat, 1 Jun 2019,
Recliner remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:25:49 on Sat, 1 Jun 2019,
Recliner remarked:

And now there's another contender, prepared to make even bigger losses in
the quest for market sha

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/r...s-to-drive-ube
r-off-the-road-as-cab-price-war-begins-ql50hf2d3?shareToken=ae520e4dc8d6
1cbc54da17360bf58ba6

This story mentions that Uber now takes a 35% commission from new drivers.

£7.50/hr [Uber driver quoted] and providing your own car, doesn't seem
like it's worth it to me.

That's why only immigrants will do it. It's probably a step up from a car
wash.

But I don't think Amazon delivery drivers have a much better deal.

No, I suppose not.

At least Amazon drivers now turn up in smart newish (unmarked) vans,

That may be a regional thing. My Amazon deliveries are still mainly
arriving in a beaten up and rattley ten year old car-based diesel van.
But is unmarked (by signage, anyway)

Mine come from Hemel Hempstead.

Didn't we decide here was a local hub too, it's quite a way for every
van driver on every delivery run to start from.

not beaten-up private cars, like some other couriers. They also don't
seem to have impossible delivery rounds, as they nearly always turn up
on the right day, and don't falsely pretend they've attempted a
delivery when they haven't (unlike Parcelforce).

I expect the Amazon drivers are tracked by their handheld devices which
may forbid the issuing of a "missed delivery" unless they are physically
on the doorstep.

Yes, very likely. They certainly track them in real time, and so can you,
as they show them on a map when they're under ten deliveries away, and tell
you how many more they have to do before getting to you.

That varies a lot by courier.

The "silently post a card through the letterbox" syndrome is different,
and is more likely to be caused by the driver discovering the parcel o
his delivery list isn't in his van after all, but he has to register an
attempted delivery to make his quota. Amazon is likely better at
ensuring the vans are properly loaded at the depot.

I've had more than one Parcelforce 'delivery' where no delivery was
attempted, and no postcard through the door. But on their website, they
claimed that a delivery had been attempted, and the parcel had then been
taken to the local Post Office. My guess is that the driver was running
late, and just dropped all the remaining parcels off there.

Was that the local sub-post-office counter, or the sorting office?
Usually their missed delivery card gives an option of collection from
one or the other, or a re-delivery. Something the lack of a card is
circumventing.

If it had been left behind at the depot by mistake (or put in the wrong
van) then later sending it to a sub-post-office could be their attempt
to cover their tracks.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 08:43:44 on Sun, 2 Jun 2019,
Recliner remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 22:37:39 on Sat, 1 Jun 2019,
Recliner remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:25:49 on Sat, 1 Jun 2019,
Recliner remarked:

And now there's another contender, prepared to make even bigger losses in
the quest for market sha

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/r...s-to-drive-ube
r-off-the-road-as-cab-price-war-begins-ql50hf2d3?shareToken=ae520e4dc8d6
1cbc54da17360bf58ba6

This story mentions that Uber now takes a 35% commission from new drivers.

£7.50/hr [Uber driver quoted] and providing your own car, doesn't seem
like it's worth it to me.

That's why only immigrants will do it. It's probably a step up from a car
wash.

But I don't think Amazon delivery drivers have a much better deal.

No, I suppose not.

At least Amazon drivers now turn up in smart newish (unmarked) vans,

That may be a regional thing. My Amazon deliveries are still mainly
arriving in a beaten up and rattley ten year old car-based diesel van.
But is unmarked (by signage, anyway)

Mine come from Hemel Hempstead.

Didn't we decide here was a local hub too, it's quite a way for every
van driver on every delivery run to start from.

All my deliveries are assembled and despatched from Hemel. If I'm scheduled
for early on the round, I can watch him speeding down the M1 and follow his
route through the suburbs, as he drops off the earlier parcels.

There are obviously other Amazon Logistics centres around the country.



not beaten-up private cars, like some other couriers. They also don't
seem to have impossible delivery rounds, as they nearly always turn up
on the right day, and don't falsely pretend they've attempted a
delivery when they haven't (unlike Parcelforce).

I expect the Amazon drivers are tracked by their handheld devices which
may forbid the issuing of a "missed delivery" unless they are physically
on the doorstep.

Yes, very likely. They certainly track them in real time, and so can you,
as they show them on a map when they're under ten deliveries away, and tell
you how many more they have to do before getting to you.

That varies a lot by courier.

Not with Amazon, which is what I'm describing.


The "silently post a card through the letterbox" syndrome is different,
and is more likely to be caused by the driver discovering the parcel o
his delivery list isn't in his van after all, but he has to register an
attempted delivery to make his quota. Amazon is likely better at
ensuring the vans are properly loaded at the depot.

I've had more than one Parcelforce 'delivery' where no delivery was
attempted, and no postcard through the door. But on their website, they
claimed that a delivery had been attempted, and the parcel had then been
taken to the local Post Office. My guess is that the driver was running
late, and just dropped all the remaining parcels off there.

Was that the local sub-post-office counter, or the sorting office?

Lately, with Parcelforce, it's been the local sub-post office. Royal Mail
deliveries (and they don't cheat) go back to the sorting office.


Usually their missed delivery card gives an option of collection from
one or the other, or a re-delivery. Something the lack of a card is
circumventing.

Royal Mail give the option, but not Parcelforce.


If it had been left behind at the depot by mistake (or put in the wrong
van) then later sending it to a sub-post-office could be their attempt
to cover their tracks.

Could be, but I think it's the driver(s) cheating.

On 31/05/2019 08:01, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 16:43:29 on Thu, 30
May 2019, JNugent remarked:
On 30/05/2019 15:41, Roland Perry wrote:


JNugent remarked:

Â*The turnover for someone like Uber or TheTrainline being the
commissionÂ* element, not including the money that passes straight
through to theÂ* drivers and Train Companies respectively.

If Uber only received a commission or circuit fee from the driver,
that would be correct and I would certainly not argue with your
proposition.

But how can that correct be in the circumstance where they also turn
over the whole of the fare collected from the passenger
(account-holder) on the spot?
Â*Do they, and send the driver an invoice for their commission later
(endÂ* of the month perhaps)?

I assume your "Do they..." was a request for confirmation of what I said.

I was asking for confirmation that they "turn over the whole fare
collected from the passenger, on the spot".

There's two aspects:

The whole fare, and
On the spot.

Yes, Uber do collect the whole of the fare.

No-one ever claimed otherwise. It's what they do after collecting it
which matters.

I don't know what form their subsequent internal accounting procedures
take, but if it were their practice to issue invoices to the driver, I
strongly suspect that we would have heard about that by now.

Therefore you are now agreeing with my proposition that they pay the
driver only part of what they collected from the passenger. Having
deducted their commission.

Not in the slightest.

They do pay an amount to the driver. Whether that is a fixed proportion
or a flat fee based on time or mileage is more than I know. I cannot
agree that Uber pay the whole of the fare less their (Uber's) commission
to the driver for the rather obvious reason that I do not know it to be
true.

Whether they pay it "on the spot", or perhaps 'at the end of the week'
or whatever, is peripheral to that particular aspect.

Is it? If you say so. I'm not convinced.

That would nudge them a bit closer to being perceived by the
passengerÂ* as a cab company, rather than a booking agent for the driver.

The passenger's view isn't important anyway, but even so, it's hard to
see how "knowing" that Uber issue invoices to drivers [if that were
the case, for which there is no evidence] would affect passengers'
opinion of Uber.

There are two models possible:

Â* Passenger pays for the ride and the whole fare is collected by Uber
Â* and sent to the driver (with Uber being in effect just a form of
Â* merchant services dealing with the card payment). Later, Uber sends a
Â* bill to the driver for his usage of their booking/billing platform.

Or,

Â* Passenger pays Uber for the ride, and they send him (maybe
Â* immediately, maybe later) a piecework payment for having done the
Â* driving aspect.

True enough. In either csae, Uber turns over the whole of the fare.

The perceptual difference being whether the passenger has just
patronised a self-employed driver, or a multi-billion cab company.

The only perception that matters is that of HMRC (and eventually,
perhaps, the courts).

TheTrainline, does the train company get paid for the ticket
straight away, or does TTL have 30day (or whatever) credit with them
all. Whatever the answer, their turnover in their published accounts
is just the commission/fee element.

But they are not Uber. And Uber are going to have to argue that the
money they turn over is not part of their turnover.

The two business models are very similar.

Not at all. Does Trainline get 100% of the turnover of the TOCs running
through its accounts?

Uber certainly gets 100% of its own turnover passing through its books.

Just to be clear about this: if an individual self-employed
taxi-driver (or private hire driver) turned over £85,000 and were
honest enough to report the fact, they would be forced by law to
register for VAT and to charge it on top of the fare.

But turning over £1808 a week (assuming five weeks' non-activity per
annum) would be a tall order. Not so for Uber.

Yes, I think we all understand why the £85k is important.

Uber have to collect and pay VAT (this is not automatically so for other
private hire drivers, proprietors or operators). The question is only
the quantum of their turnover.

On 01/06/2019 07:51, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 00:26:56 on Sat, 1 Jun
2019, JNugent remarked:
On 31/05/2019 09:24, Recliner wrote:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 16:01:55 on Thu, 30 May
2019, Recliner remarked:

I don't know what form their subsequent internal accounting procedures
take, but if it were their practice to issue invoices to the driver, I
strongly suspect that we would have heard about that by now.

There's no need to speculate: Uber operates a weekly billing cycle,
Mon-Mon, and issues statements to drivers on Tuesdays. Their net money,
after User's fee, is then transferred to their accounts on Wednesday.

https://www.ridester.com/uber-payment/amp/

https://www.ridesharingdriver.com/ho...vers-get-paid-
and-how-to-resolve-payment-errors/

Thanks for digging that out. It is just as I expected.
One thing I noticed from those is that Uber automatically repays
drivers
for any tolls they have to pay when carrying fares. But not when empty. So
if a driver carried a fare across a toll bridge/tunnel, the toll is added
to the fare and repaid to the driver. But if the driver then has to return
home empty, they have to pay the fare out of their own pocket. So that is
like a self-employed cabbie, not an employee.

Taxi fare schedules with which i am familiar specify that any toll on
the outward journey is doubled, so as to cater for the return journey.

So that's a difference where Uber is concerned, not a similarity.

Following up on a question I asked earlier, I see that the biggest firm
in my locality has as T&C:

I wasn't talking about the policies of a "firm".

I was describing the law, as provided by regulation and local by-law,
made, as the case may be, under the Metropolitan Public Carriage Act
1869 (as amended), the Town Police Clauses Act 1847 and/or the Local
Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1976.

As I am sure you know, the law does not prescribe or control the charges
made by the drivers or operators of private hire cars (including Uber).
It only controls the fares of taxis. The private hire industry may
charge what it likes (subject to martket conditions).

All fares are quoted in Pounds (£) Sterling GBP. The pick up
fare includes initial 30 minutes waiting time, car parking fees,
motorway toll fees and any congestion charges.

But then kind of contradicts itself (drop-off fees are really a parking
charge for the drop-off area, being metered by time) with:

Stansted Airport and London Luton Airport have introduced a drop
off fee to drivers on exiting the airport drop off area, this
fee is currently set at £3.50[1] for Stansted and £3.00 for
Luton. This is an addition(sic) charge to the listed pricing.

All fine. They can do as they like. There is no question of their not
being allowed to do it. They are not taxis, after all.

The pick-up area at Stansted is a bus-ride away from the terminal
building, which is a bit inconvenient if you've ordered a taxi. Luton
airport describes its premium facility as both pick-up and drop-off.
Birmingham airport (like Stansted) as only drop-off, but I've been
picked up there by taxis.

[1] According to the airport it's £4 for the first 10 minutes, then
£1/minute.