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Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
"Anna Noyd-Dryver" wrote in message ... tim... wrote: "Graeme Wall" wrote in message ... On 22/10/2019 11:35, tim... wrote: "Recliner" wrote in message ... From: https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577 One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from a container port using old passenger trains. Have I understood this right? someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s) and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual units onto little trucks Actually into vans What size of individual unit is this going to work for? Pallets the problem with pallets is they presumably need to be fork lifted and you aren't going to be able to load up a train carriage through a couple of side doors (even if you widen them) using fork lifts, you'd need flat wagons for that You’ve never seen pallets being wheeled around supermarkets etc on one of these? https://www.northerntool.com/images/product/2000x2000/558/55833_2000x2000.jpg yeah, In an earlier life I occasionally got to "drive" one but I think their load is far more limited compared with a fork lift And. of course, they will only deliver the bottom pallet of a stack and wheeled cages, wheeled cages would work, but that means that the goods have to be correctly loaded into wheeled cages at the origin and the cages transported 6000 miles on the ship. That seems a little bit too much organisation to me think updated BRUTES. I have no idea what BRUTES is https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Universal_Trolley_Equipment Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes The only three trains a day is also a bit of a damp squib how many container movements is that going to replace, 100 or 2? Going from the OP, I’d guess 12 per day, or 24 if they’re running both units together. And if it’s successful, scope for more. and how many containers arrive at the port every day - Google tells me that the largest ships can carry 19 thousand, so 100,000 per day?? OK they aren't all going to London, but what the heck! Plenty get transported around the country by train; Yes I know, I was being awkward :-) tim |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
On 22/10/2019 14:34, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
wrote: On 22/10/2019 12:53, Graeme Wall wrote: On 22/10/2019 12:40, tim... wrote: "Graeme Wall" wrote in message ... On 22/10/2019 11:35, tim... wrote: "Recliner" wrote in message ... From: https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577 One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from a container port using old passenger trains. Have I understood this right? someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s) and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual units onto little trucks Actually into vans What size of individual unit is this going to work for? Pallets the problem with pallets is they presumably need to be fork lifted and you aren't going to be able to load up a train carriage through a couple of side doors (even if you widen them) using fork lifts, you'd need flat wagons for that and wheeled cages, wheeled cages would work, but that means that the goods have to be correctly loaded into wheeled cages at the origin and the cages transported 6000 miles on the ship. No, the wheeled cages are loaded at the distribution depot. As someone else explained container loads with goods for multiple destinations get broken down at a distribution depot and made up into individual cage-loads for each destination. Normally then taken by van from the depot to the customer. The problem with the Orion concept is that it involves an extra handling phase, depot - train - van. However with the increased charges for operating diesel vehicles in major city centres it could well be economically feasible. The alternative would be to utilise electric lorries from the depot in the first place. That seems a little bit too much organisation to me think updated BRUTES. I have no idea what BRUTES is Are (or were, have any been preserved?): British Rail UTility Equipment, wheeled cages that could be formed into "trains". A common sight at major stations when BR was in the parcels business (Red Star). There were also placed onto trains, sometimes into the guards' van or more commonly onto dedicated trains. Ramps were provided but this could be achieved without. There are still one or two modified BUTES around but they're now used for other purposes. Different cages and different trains but the same concept - I remember watching a postal train call at Cardiff in the last few months before the service was curtailed - the speed and agility with which the staff loaded the 'York'(?) trolleys onto the train was very impressive, particularly considering they had to use a ramp with a 90° angle (and a turntable!) due to the limited platform width. The signs showing the locations for destinations on the mail and parcel trains are still located on Temple Meads railway station. I often wonder if they are included in the listed status of the station. |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
tim... wrote:
"Anna Noyd-Dryver" wrote in message ... tim... wrote: "Graeme Wall" wrote in message ... On 22/10/2019 11:35, tim... wrote: "Recliner" wrote in message ... From: https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577 One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from a container port using old passenger trains. Have I understood this right? someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s) and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual units onto little trucks Actually into vans What size of individual unit is this going to work for? Pallets the problem with pallets is they presumably need to be fork lifted and you aren't going to be able to load up a train carriage through a couple of side doors (even if you widen them) using fork lifts, you'd need flat wagons for that You’ve never seen pallets being wheeled around supermarkets etc on one of these? https://www.northerntool.com/images/product/2000x2000/558/55833_2000x2000.jpg yeah, In an earlier life I occasionally got to "drive" one but I think their load is far more limited compared with a fork lift 2.5 tonnes according to the various images at the top of the first page of a google search. And. of course, they will only deliver the bottom pallet of a stack How high do you think they’ll be stacked within a train carriage? Anna Noyd-Dryver |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
On 22/10/2019 15:39, tim... wrote:
"Graeme Wall" wrote in message ... On 22/10/2019 12:40, tim... wrote: "Graeme Wall" wrote in message ... On 22/10/2019 11:35, tim... wrote: "Recliner" wrote in message ... From: https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577 One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from a container port using old passenger trains. Have I understood this right? someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s) and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual units onto little trucks Actually into vans What size of individual unit is this going to work for? Pallets the problem with pallets is they presumably need to be fork lifted and you aren't going to be able to load up a train carriage through a couple of side doors (even if you widen them) using fork lifts, you'd need flat wagons for that and wheeled cages, wheeled cages would work, but that means that the goods have to be correctly loaded into wheeled cages at the origin and the cages transported 6000 miles on the ship. No, the wheeled cages are loaded at the distribution depot. As someone else explained container loads with goods for multiple destinations get broken down at a distribution depot and made up into individual cage-loads for each destination. Normally then taken by van from the depot to the customer. The problem with the Orion concept is that it involves an extra handling phase, depot - train - van. I still can't get my head around, that it's not two extra steps One step: depot to van Two steps, depot to train to van However with the increased charges for operating diesel vehicles in major city centres it could well be economically feasible. Yes I can see that. The question is "will it?" (rhetorical.) The $64,000 question. The alternative would be to utilise electric lorries from the depot in the first place. That seems a little bit too much organisation to me think updated BRUTES. I have no idea what BRUTES is Are (or were, have any been preserved?): British Rail UTility Equipment, wheeled cages that could be formed into "trains". A common sight at major stations when BR was in the parcels business (Red Star). Oh I know what you mean now,* Never knew the name though. Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes The only three trains a day is also a bit of a damp squib how many container movements is that going to replace, 100 or 2? and how many containers arrive at the port every day - Google tells me that the largest ships can carry 19 thousand, so 100,000 per day?? They don't all get delivered to one port. Oh OK. The ship will continue on, most likely to Antwerp or Rotterdam if eastbound, to make further deliveries. -- Graeme Wall This account not read. |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
On 22/10/2019 15:43, tim... wrote:
"Anna Noyd-Dryver" wrote in message ... tim... wrote: "Graeme Wall" wrote in message ... On 22/10/2019 11:35, tim... wrote: "Recliner" wrote in message ... From: https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577 One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from a container port using old passenger trains. Have I understood this right? someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s) and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual units onto little trucks Actually into vans What size of individual unit is this going to work for? Pallets the problem with pallets is they presumably need to be fork lifted and you aren't going to be able to load up a train carriage through a couple of side doors (even if you widen them) using fork lifts, you'd need flat wagons for that You’ve never seen pallets being wheeled around supermarkets etc on one of these? https://www.northerntool.com/images/product/2000x2000/558/55833_2000x2000.jpg yeah, In an earlier life I occasionally got to "drive" one but I think their load is far more limited compared with a fork lift And. of course, they will only deliver the bottom pallet of a stack and wheeled cages, wheeled cages would work, but that means that the goods have to be correctly loaded into wheeled cages at the origin and the cages transported 6000 miles on the ship. That seems a little bit too much organisation to me think updated BRUTES. I have no idea what BRUTES is https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Universal_Trolley_Equipment Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes The only three trains a day is also a bit of a damp squib how many container movements is that going to replace, 100 or 2? Going from the OP, I’d guess 12 per day, or 24 if they’re running both units together. And if it’s successful, scope for more. and how many containers arrive at the port every day - Google tells me that the largest ships can carry 19 thousand, so 100,000 per day?? OK they aren't all going to London, but what the heck! Plenty get transported around the country by train; Yes I know, I was being awkward :-) Awkward, you? Surely not :-) -- Graeme Wall This account not read. |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
Marland wrote:
tim... wrote: "Recliner" wrote in message ... Graeme Wall wrote: On 22/10/2019 11:35, tim... wrote: "Recliner" wrote in message ... From: https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577 One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from a container port using old passenger trains. Have I understood this right? someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s) and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual units onto little trucks Actually into vans What size of individual unit is this going to work for? Pallets and wheeled cages, think updated BRUTES. Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes His scheme involved autonomous, self-propelled containers being carried on the convertible upper deck of his giant high speed double-decker trains. They would drive themselves right to the cutomer's address. you might jest, but I feel sure that Amazon are looking at doing that sort of thing without the train involvement tim The Ocado depot in Andover Hampshire burnt down early this possibly because the fire precautions were not thought through enough, that withstanding the publicity from the incident did show how far the technology of autonomous sorting equipment has become and similar equipment is used elsewhere. video of the Ocado system here, it would not be inconceivable to think that some of the units could be programmed to load themselves onto a truck or train get taken to distribution point and once self driving vehicle technology has developed complete the last leg though I imagine at first it would be other warehouses. Ocado before it burnt. https://youtu.be/4DKrcpa8Z_E Automated robots following tracks in flat factory floors aren't new, and the Ocado ones run in a segregated environment where they don't have to steer clear of people or other vehicles. Extrapolating that to the general problem of operating in a public space, where they have to self-navigate around people and other vehicles, across curbs and bumpy surfaces, obeying traffic lights, etc is a difficult problem whose solution isn't imminent. Level 5 autonomous cars are certainly more than a decade away, perhaps much more. |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
On 22/10/2019 12:40, tim... wrote:
think updated BRUTES. I have no idea what BRUTES is Plural of BRUTE aka "British Rail Universal Trolley Equipment" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britis...lley_Equipment |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
tim... wrote:
wrote in message ... On 22/10/2019 12:53, Graeme Wall wrote: On 22/10/2019 12:40, tim... wrote: "Graeme Wall" wrote in message ... On 22/10/2019 11:35, tim... wrote: "Recliner" wrote in message ... From: https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577 One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from a container port using old passenger trains. Have I understood this right? someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s) and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual units onto little trucks Actually into vans What size of individual unit is this going to work for? Pallets the problem with pallets is they presumably need to be fork lifted and you aren't going to be able to load up a train carriage through a couple of side doors (even if you widen them) using fork lifts, you'd need flat wagons for that and wheeled cages, wheeled cages would work, but that means that the goods have to be correctly loaded into wheeled cages at the origin and the cages transported 6000 miles on the ship. No, the wheeled cages are loaded at the distribution depot. As someone else explained container loads with goods for multiple destinations get broken down at a distribution depot and made up into individual cage-loads for each destination. Normally then taken by van from the depot to the customer. The problem with the Orion concept is that it involves an extra handling phase, depot - train - van. However with the increased charges for operating diesel vehicles in major city centres it could well be economically feasible. The alternative would be to utilise electric lorries from the depot in the first place. That seems a little bit too much organisation to me think updated BRUTES. I have no idea what BRUTES is Are (or were, have any been preserved?): British Rail UTility Equipment, wheeled cages that could be formed into "trains". A common sight at major stations when BR was in the parcels business (Red Star). There were also placed onto trains, sometimes into the guards' van or more commonly onto dedicated trains. Ramps were provided but this could be achieved without. There are still one or two modified BUTES around but they're now used for other purposes. flower displays :-) tim They used to make good extra seating when left on platforms. GH |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
On 22/10/2019 17:08, Recliner wrote:
Marland wrote: tim... wrote: "Recliner" wrote in message ... Graeme Wall wrote: On 22/10/2019 11:35, tim... wrote: "Recliner" wrote in message ... From: https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577 One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from a container port using old passenger trains. Have I understood this right? someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s) and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual units onto little trucks Actually into vans What size of individual unit is this going to work for? Pallets and wheeled cages, think updated BRUTES. Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes His scheme involved autonomous, self-propelled containers being carried on the convertible upper deck of his giant high speed double-decker trains. They would drive themselves right to the cutomer's address. you might jest, but I feel sure that Amazon are looking at doing that sort of thing without the train involvement tim The Ocado depot in Andover Hampshire burnt down early this possibly because the fire precautions were not thought through enough, that withstanding the publicity from the incident did show how far the technology of autonomous sorting equipment has become and similar equipment is used elsewhere. video of the Ocado system here, it would not be inconceivable to think that some of the units could be programmed to load themselves onto a truck or train get taken to distribution point and once self driving vehicle technology has developed complete the last leg though I imagine at first it would be other warehouses. Ocado before it burnt. https://youtu.be/4DKrcpa8Z_E Automated robots following tracks in flat factory floors aren't new, The first ones were in the late 1960s IIRC. -- Graeme Wall This account not read. |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
"Anna Noyd-Dryver" wrote in message ... tim... wrote: And. of course, they will only deliver the bottom pallet of a stack How high do you think they’ll be stacked within a train carriage? more than one tim |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
"Graeme Wall" wrote in message ... On 22/10/2019 15:43, tim... wrote: "Anna Noyd-Dryver" wrote in message ... tim... wrote: "Graeme Wall" wrote in message ... On 22/10/2019 11:35, tim... wrote: "Recliner" wrote in message ... From: https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577 One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from a container port using old passenger trains. Have I understood this right? someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s) and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual units onto little trucks Actually into vans What size of individual unit is this going to work for? Pallets the problem with pallets is they presumably need to be fork lifted and you aren't going to be able to load up a train carriage through a couple of side doors (even if you widen them) using fork lifts, you'd need flat wagons for that You’ve never seen pallets being wheeled around supermarkets etc on one of these? https://www.northerntool.com/images/product/2000x2000/558/55833_2000x2000.jpg yeah, In an earlier life I occasionally got to "drive" one but I think their load is far more limited compared with a fork lift And. of course, they will only deliver the bottom pallet of a stack and wheeled cages, wheeled cages would work, but that means that the goods have to be correctly loaded into wheeled cages at the origin and the cages transported 6000 miles on the ship. That seems a little bit too much organisation to me think updated BRUTES. I have no idea what BRUTES is https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Universal_Trolley_Equipment Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes The only three trains a day is also a bit of a damp squib how many container movements is that going to replace, 100 or 2? Going from the OP, I’d guess 12 per day, or 24 if they’re running both units together. And if it’s successful, scope for more. and how many containers arrive at the port every day - Google tells me that the largest ships can carry 19 thousand, so 100,000 per day?? OK they aren't all going to London, but what the heck! Plenty get transported around the country by train; Yes I know, I was being awkward :-) Awkward, you? Surely not :-) I learnt it from Roland :-) |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
"Roland Perry" wrote in message ... In message , at 12:40:02 on Tue, 22 Oct 2019, tim... remarked: think updated BRUTES. I have no idea what BRUTES is Are. If you think you were correcting my grammar, fraid not I had assumed it was the name of a concept or system solution, say like TOPS. |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
"Recliner" wrote in message ... Automated robots following tracks in flat factory floors aren't new, and the Ocado ones run in a segregated environment where they don't have to steer clear of people or other vehicles. Extrapolating that to the general problem of operating in a public space, where they have to self-navigate around people and other vehicles, across curbs and bumpy surfaces, obeying traffic lights, etc is a difficult problem whose solution isn't imminent. Some of the "inside the factory" series have shown robot vehicles moving around freely (obviously to some pre-programmed destination) and stopping for people who get in their way Cherry and Greg almost wet themselves at how exciting this technology is :-) [1] Can't remember which ones tim [1] Sorry that's an in joke from elsewhere |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
In article ,
Recliner wrote: The trains, due for delivery in May, are having their seats removed and being fitted with diesel engines. The engines will generate power when the train is not running on non-electrified lines, such as the freight sidings ... Don't they mean that the engines will not generate power when the train is not running on non-electrified lines? -- Regards, John Levine, , Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
On 22/10/2019 18:22, John Levine wrote:
In article , Recliner wrote: The trains, due for delivery in May, are having their seats removed and being fitted with diesel engines. The engines will generate power when the train is not running on non-electrified lines, such as the freight sidings ... Don't they mean that the engines will not generate power when the train is not running on non-electrified lines? Perhaps they will generate power when the train is on non-electrified lines but not running, as opposed to being on non-electrified lines and coasting along with the momentum gained previously from the wires behind it. But I don't think that's what they meant. |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
tim... wrote:
"Anna Noyd-Dryver" wrote in message ... tim... wrote: And. of course, they will only deliver the bottom pallet of a stack How high do you think they’ll be stacked within a train carriage? more than one The pallets I’ve seen on supermarket shop floors are stacked to about 6 feet high and wrapped in shrink wrap. I didn’t realise 769s had 12 foot internal headroom... Anna Noyd-Dryver |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
On 22/10/2019 10:58, Recliner wrote:
Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 08:49:40 on Tue, 22 Oct 2019, Recliner remarked: Once the packages arrive at Liverpool Street, they will be distributed to their final destinations around the city by electric van or cargo bikes. Whatever happened to the very similar sounding scheme a couple of years ago to deliver packages to Euston in the small hours, and have them distributed by electric vans? That was a one-off concept demonstration, back in June 2014. It was organised by a consultancy (Intermodality) with Colas Rail and TNT. The demo proved that the idea was workable, but my guess is that the economics weren't favourable at the time. Things have obviously changed six years later. Whatever happened with the pilot programme to move freight about Amsterdam via tram? There was also CarGo in Leipzig, which served the VW plant in the area. I wonder if anybody is thinking of restarting that service or even expanding it to serve other parts of town. |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
On 22/10/2019 10:12, Graeme Wall wrote:
On 22/10/2019 09:49, Recliner wrote: From: https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577 One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from a container port using old passenger trains. The first service, which is due to start in May between London Gateway and London Liverpool Street, is intended to help hauliers avoid the charges from London’s Ultra-Low Emissions Zone (ULEZ), which was introduced this year, and the congestion zone. It would also take traffic off the heavily congested A13 that links the port near Thurrock in Essex to the capital. A specialist rail engineering company, Rail Operations Group, is working with DP World, the owner of London Gateway, to develop the low-emissions scheme to compete with road hauliers to move consumer goods and freight nearer to their final destination in London. Karl Watts, ROG chief executive, said the response to its plans from logistics companies and retailers had been “overwhelming,” although he declined to name any customers that had signed up for the service. Paul Orchard, ROG production director, said a series of different companies — including logistics companies and retailers — were looking at participating. Heavy goods vehicles that fall short of the standards required for the ULEZ have to pay a charge of £100 for each trip into the zone, which from April this year mirrors the congestion-charging zone in central London. From October 2021, Transport for London will extend ULEZ to cover the area within the north and south circular roads. Mr Orchard said road hauliers can face environmental charges of up to £200 on a return trip into the capital depending on timing and the type of vehicle used. “The margins are in some cases wafer-thin,” Mr Orchard said of road transport. “You start adding in an extra £200 . . . and that’s enough to make rail competitive.” ROG, which will offer the service under the “Orion” brand, plans to initially run three round-trip rail services per day outside of peak hours. It plans to use two converted, four-carriage trains that previously operated the Thameslink cross-London passenger route. The trains, due for delivery in May, are having their seats removed and being fitted with diesel engines. The engines will generate power when the train is not running on non-electrified lines, such as the freight sidings at London Gateway. ROG estimates that each carriage on its trains will carry around the same as a heavy truck. Once the packages arrive at Liverpool Street, they will be distributed to their final destinations around the city by electric van or cargo bikes. Liverpool Street is the UK’s third-busiest station with 67m passengers using it in the year to the end of March 2018. ROG is looking to expand the service and is talking to customers about other destinations, including possible overnight trains between London and Scotland and from London to Bristol. DP World confirmed it had held discussions with ROG about starting the service. It said it was also talking to the Port of London Authority on plans to use barges to move some goods to a site in Fulham, west London, by river. Then ship them up the Grand Union to* Birmingham! I've wondered whether the Grand Union or even the Caledonian could find commercial use once again. Perhaps the Regents Canal from Limehouse up to Paddington Station via Little Venice? That would require an intermodal station, however. Does Sweden's Göta Canal ever see any commercial traffic? |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
Recliner wrote:
Marland wrote: tim... wrote: "Recliner" wrote in message ... Graeme Wall wrote: On 22/10/2019 11:35, tim... wrote: "Recliner" wrote in message ... From: https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577 One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from a container port using old passenger trains. Have I understood this right? someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s) and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual units onto little trucks Actually into vans What size of individual unit is this going to work for? Pallets and wheeled cages, think updated BRUTES. Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes His scheme involved autonomous, self-propelled containers being carried on the convertible upper deck of his giant high speed double-decker trains. They would drive themselves right to the cutomer's address. you might jest, but I feel sure that Amazon are looking at doing that sort of thing without the train involvement tim The Ocado depot in Andover Hampshire burnt down early this possibly because the fire precautions were not thought through enough, that withstanding the publicity from the incident did show how far the technology of autonomous sorting equipment has become and similar equipment is used elsewhere. video of the Ocado system here, it would not be inconceivable to think that some of the units could be programmed to load themselves onto a truck or train get taken to distribution point and once self driving vehicle technology has developed complete the last leg though I imagine at first it would be other warehouses. Ocado before it burnt. https://youtu.be/4DKrcpa8Z_E Automated robots following tracks in flat factory floors aren't new, and the Ocado ones run in a segregated environment where they don't have to steer clear of people or other vehicles. Extrapolating that to the general problem of operating in a public space, where they have to self-navigate around people and other vehicles, across curbs and bumpy surfaces, obeying traffic lights, etc is a difficult problem whose solution isn't imminent. Level 5 autonomous cars are certainly more than a decade away, perhaps much more. Have no argument with the long development time for autonomous vehicles which is why I added the caveat of first use could be to other warehouses ,which might be the store for a large supermarket and further replace the need for human staff As it happens the system used by Ocado is little more sophisticated than a flat factory floor in that the storage baskets are stacked several tiers vertically, as well horizontally and the system stores items less in demand at the bottom. And while it may be a controlled environment they do have to avoid each other. I wouldn’t expect to see anything like them roam free in public space anytime soon but was more using them as an example that the late Mr Bells idea of self loading cargo pods might not be so outlandish though not on a super gauge railway. GH |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
Marland wrote:
Recliner wrote: Marland wrote: tim... wrote: "Recliner" wrote in message ... Graeme Wall wrote: On 22/10/2019 11:35, tim... wrote: "Recliner" wrote in message ... From: https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577 One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from a container port using old passenger trains. Have I understood this right? someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s) and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual units onto little trucks Actually into vans What size of individual unit is this going to work for? Pallets and wheeled cages, think updated BRUTES. Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes His scheme involved autonomous, self-propelled containers being carried on the convertible upper deck of his giant high speed double-decker trains. They would drive themselves right to the cutomer's address. you might jest, but I feel sure that Amazon are looking at doing that sort of thing without the train involvement tim The Ocado depot in Andover Hampshire burnt down early this possibly because the fire precautions were not thought through enough, that withstanding the publicity from the incident did show how far the technology of autonomous sorting equipment has become and similar equipment is used elsewhere. video of the Ocado system here, it would not be inconceivable to think that some of the units could be programmed to load themselves onto a truck or train get taken to distribution point and once self driving vehicle technology has developed complete the last leg though I imagine at first it would be other warehouses. Ocado before it burnt. https://youtu.be/4DKrcpa8Z_E Automated robots following tracks in flat factory floors aren't new, and the Ocado ones run in a segregated environment where they don't have to steer clear of people or other vehicles. Extrapolating that to the general problem of operating in a public space, where they have to self-navigate around people and other vehicles, across curbs and bumpy surfaces, obeying traffic lights, etc is a difficult problem whose solution isn't imminent. Level 5 autonomous cars are certainly more than a decade away, perhaps much more. Have no argument with the long development time for autonomous vehicles which is why I added the caveat of first use could be to other warehouses ,which might be the store for a large supermarket and further replace the need for human staff As it happens the system used by Ocado is little more sophisticated than a flat factory floor in that the storage baskets are stacked several tiers vertically, as well horizontally and the system stores items less in demand at the bottom. And while it may be a controlled environment they do have to avoid each other. Which is a lot easier than avoiding random pedestrians, cyclists, dogs, cars, buses, etc. I wouldn’t expect to see anything like them roam free in public space anytime soon but was more using them as an example that the late Mr Bells idea of self loading cargo pods might not be so outlandish though not on a super gauge railway. I think Michael's grand vision in this area was based on a number of individually feasible, or at least theoretically possible, elements, but collectively it was far from practical. That was true of many of his grand plans, which generally weren't based on impossible science. One rare exception was his strange belief that taller high speed trains would be more stable than squatter ones. |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
In message , at 20:50:41 on Tue, 22
Oct 2019, " remarked: On 22/10/2019 10:12, Graeme Wall wrote: On 22/10/2019 09:49, Recliner wrote: From: https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-...d8281195?segme ntId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577 One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from a container port using old passenger trains. The first service, which is due to start in May between London Gateway and London Liverpool Street, is intended to help hauliers avoid the charges from London’s Ultra-Low Emissions Zone (ULEZ), which was introduced this year, and the congestion zone. It would also take traffic off the heavily congested A13 that links the port near Thurrock in Essex to the capital. A specialist rail engineering company, Rail Operations Group, is working with DP World, the owner of London Gateway, to develop the low-emissions scheme to compete with road hauliers to move consumer goods and freight nearer to their final destination in London. Karl Watts, ROG chief executive, said the response to its plans from logistics companies and retailers had been “overwhelming,” although he declined to name any customers that had signed up for the service. Paul Orchard, ROG production director, said a series of different companies — including logistics companies and retailers — were looking at participating. Heavy goods vehicles that fall short of the standards required for the ULEZ have to pay a charge of £100 for each trip into the zone, which from April this year mirrors the congestion-charging zone in central London. From October 2021, Transport for London will extend ULEZ to cover the area within the north and south circular roads. Mr Orchard said road hauliers can face environmental charges of up to £200 on a return trip into the capital depending on timing and the type of vehicle used. “The margins are in some cases wafer-thin,” Mr Orchard said of road transport. “You start adding in an extra £200?.?.?.?and that’s enough to make rail competitive.” ROG, which will offer the service under the “Orion” brand, plans to initially run three round-trip rail services per day outside of peak hours. It plans to use two converted, four-carriage trains that previously operated the Thameslink cross-London passenger route. The trains, due for delivery in May, are having their seats removed and being fitted with diesel engines. The engines will generate power when the train is not running on non-electrified lines, such as the freight sidings at London Gateway. ROG estimates that each carriage on its trains will carry around the same as a heavy truck. Once the packages arrive at Liverpool Street, they will be distributed to their final destinations around the city by electric van or cargo bikes. Liverpool Street is the UK’s third-busiest station with 67m passengers using it in the year to the end of March 2018. ROG is looking to expand the service and is talking to customers about other destinations, including possible overnight trains between London and Scotland and from London to Bristol. DP World confirmed it had held discussions with ROG about starting the service. It said it was also talking to the Port of London Authority on plans to use barges to move some goods to a site in Fulham, west London, by river. Then ship them up the Grand Union to* Birmingham! I've wondered whether the Grand Union or even the Caledonian could find commercial use once again. Perhaps the Regents Canal from Limehouse up to Paddington Station via Little Venice? That would require an intermodal station, however. Does Sweden's Göta Canal ever see any commercial traffic? If the road hauliers are worried about their HGVs being banned, then they could recruit OAPs (with Freedom cards) to hand-carry items from a railhead near the M25. Brentwood to the east and Chorleywood to the northwest. There's even a pub near each station where the OAPs could gather while waiting for the HGVs to arrive. -- Roland Perry |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
In message , at 17:34:28 on Tue, 22 Oct
2019, tim... remarked: "Roland Perry" wrote in message ... In message , at 12:40:02 on Tue, 22 Oct 2019, tim... remarked: think updated BRUTES. I have no idea what BRUTES is Are. If you think you were correcting my grammar, fraid not I had assumed it was the name of a concept or system solution, say like TOPS. It's dispelling that assumption which requires your grammar to be corrected. -- Roland Perry |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
"Anna Noyd-Dryver" wrote in message ... tim... wrote: "Anna Noyd-Dryver" wrote in message ... tim... wrote: And. of course, they will only deliver the bottom pallet of a stack How high do you think they’ll be stacked within a train carriage? more than one The pallets I’ve seen on supermarket shop floors are stacked to about 6 feet high and wrapped in shrink wrap. I didn’t realise 769s had 12 foot internal headroom... from personal experience: you wouldn't want to be moving around a 6 foot high stack with a hand driven thingy you need the item to be no higher than you can reasonably see over the top Anna Noyd-Dryver |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
On 23/10/2019 08:08, tim... wrote:
"Anna Noyd-Dryver" wrote in message ... tim... wrote: "Anna Noyd-Dryver" wrote in message ... tim... wrote: And. of course, they will only deliver the bottom pallet of a stack How high do you think they’ll be stacked within a train carriage? more than one The pallets I’ve seen on supermarket shop floors are stacked to about 6 feet high and wrapped in shrink wrap. I didn’t realise 769s had 12 foot internal headroom... from personal experience: you wouldn't want to be moving around a 6 foot high stack with a hand driven thingy you need the item to be no higher than you can reasonably see over the top Tell that to Asda. Our local one has been re-fitted with their extra high shelves and I'm forever being asked to reach items from the top one. |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
wrote in message ... On 23/10/2019 08:08, tim... wrote: "Anna Noyd-Dryver" wrote in message ... tim... wrote: "Anna Noyd-Dryver" wrote in message ... tim... wrote: And. of course, they will only deliver the bottom pallet of a stack How high do you think they’ll be stacked within a train carriage? more than one The pallets I’ve seen on supermarket shop floors are stacked to about 6 feet high and wrapped in shrink wrap. I didn’t realise 769s had 12 foot internal headroom... from personal experience: you wouldn't want to be moving around a 6 foot high stack with a hand driven thingy you need the item to be no higher than you can reasonably see over the top Tell that to Asda. Our local one has been re-fitted with their extra high shelves and I'm forever being asked to reach items from the top one. That's a bit different from trying to push and steer a few hundredweight of pallet around the store, isn't it? As an aside, the 2.5 tonnes that (we have been told) these things can move is never going to be likely in a manual loaded environment. With a 20 kg personal lifting limit that's 100+ boxes per load. Manually loading 100 boxes onto a single pallet repeatedly, just ain't gonna happen tim |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
On 23/10/2019 09:26, tim... wrote:
wrote in message ... On 23/10/2019 08:08, tim... wrote: "Anna Noyd-Dryver" wrote in message ... tim... wrote: "Anna Noyd-Dryver" wrote in message ... tim... wrote: And. of course, they will only deliver the bottom pallet of a stack How high do you think they’ll be stacked within a train carriage? more than one The pallets I’ve seen on supermarket shop floors are stacked to about 6 feet high and wrapped in shrink wrap. I didn’t realise 769s had 12 foot internal headroom... from personal experience: you wouldn't want to be moving around a 6 foot high stack with a hand driven thingy you need the item to be no higher than you can reasonably see over the top Tell that to Asda.* Our local one has been re-fitted with their extra high shelves and I'm forever being asked to reach items from the top one. That's a bit different from trying to push and steer a few hundredweight of pallet around the store, isn't it? As an aside, the 2.5 tonnes that (we have been told) these things can move is never going to be likely in a manual loaded environment.* With a 20 kg personal lifting limit that's 100+ boxes per load. Manually loading 100 boxes onto a single pallet repeatedly, just ain't gonna happen You are assuming they will be loaded manually. -- Graeme Wall This account not read. |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
"Graeme Wall" wrote in message ... On 23/10/2019 09:26, tim... wrote: Manually loading 100 boxes onto a single pallet repeatedly, just ain't gonna happen You are assuming they will be loaded manually. I thought we'd established that's the MO here tim |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
On 23/10/2019 11:07, tim... wrote:
"Graeme Wall" wrote in message ... On 23/10/2019 09:26, tim... wrote: Manually loading 100 boxes onto a single pallet repeatedly, just ain't gonna happen You are assuming they will be loaded manually. I thought we'd established that's the MO here Depends how the are loaded into the container at origin, could already be palletised. Automatic loading of individual items onto pallets is also possible but the latter are more likely to loaded into cages which are already in use so they have to loaded somehow. -- Graeme Wall This account not read. |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
On 22/10/2019 14:35, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
The taxi rank used to be between platforms 10 and 11, at platform level. ISTR seeing service vehicles in that area on a recent journey, so presumably there’s still access. There still is a taxi rank between platforms 10 & 11, at platform level. -- Basil Jet recently enjoyed listening to Tortoise - 2016 - The Catastrophist |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
On 2019-10-22 12:43:57 +0000, Anna Noyd-Dryver said:
tim... wrote: the problem with pallets is they presumably need to be fork lifted and you aren't going to be able to load up a train carriage through a couple of side doors (even if you widen them) using fork lifts, you'd need flat wagons for that You’ve never seen pallets being wheeled around supermarkets etc on one of these? https://www.northerntool.com/images/product/2000x2000/558/55833_2000x2000.jpg Some lorries (and, I think, many aircraft) are fitted with handling systems in the floor for allowing loads to be shifted around without having to run a vehicle inside the cargo space. The ones in trucks were known as 'jo-loaders' when had student summer jobs, but that was some time ago and I can't find many references to that term now. Sam -- The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
Basil Jet wrote:
On 22/10/2019 14:35, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote: The taxi rank used to be between platforms 10 and 11, at platform level. ISTR seeing service vehicles in that area on a recent journey, so presumably there’s still access. There still is a taxi rank between platforms 10 & 11, at platform level. Yes, I managed to miss the taxi logo on the NR website when I looked to check platform numbers, and I posted before seeing Recliner(?)'s post saying that the taxi rank is still in that location. Anna Noyd-Dryver |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
tim... wrote:
"Anna Noyd-Dryver" wrote in message ... tim... wrote: "Anna Noyd-Dryver" wrote in message ... tim... wrote: And. of course, they will only deliver the bottom pallet of a stack How high do you think they’ll be stacked within a train carriage? more than one The pallets I’ve seen on supermarket shop floors are stacked to about 6 feet high and wrapped in shrink wrap. I didn’t realise 769s had 12 foot internal headroom... from personal experience: you wouldn't want to be moving around a 6 foot high stack with a hand driven thingy you need the item to be no higher than you can reasonably see over the top Yesterday I noted a pallet being moved around on a pallet trolley at my local Aldi; it was stacked to far above head height with plastic trays containing loaves of sliced bread, the whole lot wrapped in cling film to keep it together. Anna Noyd-Dryver |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
In message , at 08:19:15 on Thu, 31 Oct
2019, Anna Noyd-Dryver remarked: you wouldn't want to be moving around a 6 foot high stack with a hand driven thingy you need the item to be no higher than you can reasonably see over the top Yesterday I noted a pallet being moved around on a pallet trolley at my local Aldi; it was stacked to far above head height with plastic trays containing loaves of sliced bread, the whole lot wrapped in cling film to keep it together. I don't know if yours is different, but our Aldi takes no prisoners when it comes to shelf-stacking. The staff expect customers to scatter when they barge past with the pallets, and then leave them blocking the aisle. -- Roland Perry |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
On Thu, 31 Oct 2019 08:49:07 +0000, Roland Perry
wrote: In message , at 08:19:15 on Thu, 31 Oct 2019, Anna Noyd-Dryver remarked: you wouldn't want to be moving around a 6 foot high stack with a hand driven thingy you need the item to be no higher than you can reasonably see over the top Yesterday I noted a pallet being moved around on a pallet trolley at my local Aldi; it was stacked to far above head height with plastic trays containing loaves of sliced bread, the whole lot wrapped in cling film to keep it together. I don't know if yours is different, but our Aldi takes no prisoners when it comes to shelf-stacking. The staff expect customers to scatter when they barge past with the pallets, and then leave them blocking the aisle. Sounds like various ASDA branches at 3am (but with more leisurely pallet moving). |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
On Thu, 31 Oct 2019 08:49:07 +0000
Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 08:19:15 on Thu, 31 Oct 2019, Anna Noyd-Dryver remarked: you wouldn't want to be moving around a 6 foot high stack with a hand driven thingy you need the item to be no higher than you can reasonably see over the top Yesterday I noted a pallet being moved around on a pallet trolley at my local Aldi; it was stacked to far above head height with plastic trays containing loaves of sliced bread, the whole lot wrapped in cling film to keep it together. I don't know if yours is different, but our Aldi takes no prisoners when it comes to shelf-stacking. The staff expect customers to scatter when they barge past with the pallets, and then leave them blocking the aisle. Its always good to be reminded why I avoid those branded famine relief centres called Aldi and Lidl. God awful ********s. |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
wrote:
On Thu, 31 Oct 2019 08:49:07 +0000 Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 08:19:15 on Thu, 31 Oct 2019, Anna Noyd-Dryver remarked: you wouldn't want to be moving around a 6 foot high stack with a hand driven thingy you need the item to be no higher than you can reasonably see over the top Yesterday I noted a pallet being moved around on a pallet trolley at my local Aldi; it was stacked to far above head height with plastic trays containing loaves of sliced bread, the whole lot wrapped in cling film to keep it together. I don't know if yours is different, but our Aldi takes no prisoners when it comes to shelf-stacking. The staff expect customers to scatter when they barge past with the pallets, and then leave them blocking the aisle. Its always good to be reminded why I avoid those branded famine relief centres called Aldi and Lidl. God awful ********s. Aldi do very good 70% dark chocolate, in packs of 5 small individually-wrapped bars. -- Jeremy Double |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
On 1 Nov 2019 20:25:15 GMT
Jeremy Double wrote: wrote: On Thu, 31 Oct 2019 08:49:07 +0000 Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 08:19:15 on Thu, 31 Oct 2019, Anna Noyd-Dryver remarked: you wouldn't want to be moving around a 6 foot high stack with a hand driven thingy you need the item to be no higher than you can reasonably see over the top Yesterday I noted a pallet being moved around on a pallet trolley at my local Aldi; it was stacked to far above head height with plastic trays containing loaves of sliced bread, the whole lot wrapped in cling film to keep it together. I don't know if yours is different, but our Aldi takes no prisoners when it comes to shelf-stacking. The staff expect customers to scatter when they barge past with the pallets, and then leave them blocking the aisle. Its always good to be reminded why I avoid those branded famine relief centres called Aldi and Lidl. God awful ********s. Aldi do very good 70% dark chocolate, in packs of 5 small individually-wrapped bars. Probably in high strength plastic so the chavs can't munch on them before they've got to the till. |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
wrote:
On 1 Nov 2019 20:25:15 GMT Jeremy Double wrote: wrote: On Thu, 31 Oct 2019 08:49:07 +0000 Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 08:19:15 on Thu, 31 Oct 2019, Anna Noyd-Dryver remarked: you wouldn't want to be moving around a 6 foot high stack with a hand driven thingy you need the item to be no higher than you can reasonably see over the top Yesterday I noted a pallet being moved around on a pallet trolley at my local Aldi; it was stacked to far above head height with plastic trays containing loaves of sliced bread, the whole lot wrapped in cling film to keep it together. I don't know if yours is different, but our Aldi takes no prisoners when it comes to shelf-stacking. The staff expect customers to scatter when they barge past with the pallets, and then leave them blocking the aisle. Its always good to be reminded why I avoid those branded famine relief centres called Aldi and Lidl. God awful ********s. Aldi do very good 70% dark chocolate, in packs of 5 small individually-wrapped bars. Probably in high strength plastic so the chavs can't munch on them before they've got to the till. No, packed in card, so they look like a 100 (ish) g bar of chocolate. -- Jeremy Double |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
wrote:
On 1 Nov 2019 20:25:15 GMT Jeremy Double wrote: wrote: On Thu, 31 Oct 2019 08:49:07 +0000 Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 08:19:15 on Thu, 31 Oct 2019, Anna Noyd-Dryver remarked: you wouldn't want to be moving around a 6 foot high stack with a hand driven thingy you need the item to be no higher than you can reasonably see over the top Yesterday I noted a pallet being moved around on a pallet trolley at my local Aldi; it was stacked to far above head height with plastic trays containing loaves of sliced bread, the whole lot wrapped in cling film to keep it together. I don't know if yours is different, but our Aldi takes no prisoners when it comes to shelf-stacking. The staff expect customers to scatter when they barge past with the pallets, and then leave them blocking the aisle. Its always good to be reminded why I avoid those branded famine relief centres called Aldi and Lidl. God awful ********s. Aldi do very good 70% dark chocolate, in packs of 5 small individually-wrapped bars. Probably in high strength plastic so the chavs can't munch on them before they've got to the till. If it's the one I'm thinking of it's in cardboard and foil-paper. Anna Noyd-Dryver |
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