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-   -   Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St (https://www.londonbanter.co.uk/london-transport/17699-orion-769-flex-cargo-services.html)

tim... October 22nd 19 03:43 PM

Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
 


"Anna Noyd-Dryver" wrote in message
...
tim... wrote:


"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
...
On 22/10/2019 11:35, tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...
From:

https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577

One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new
role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London
from
a container port using old passenger trains.


Have I understood this right?

someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port

transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage
individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s)

and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual
units onto little trucks

Actually into vans


What size of individual unit is this going to work for?


Pallets


the problem with pallets is they presumably need to be fork lifted

and you aren't going to be able to load up a train carriage through a
couple
of side doors (even if you widen them) using fork lifts, you'd need flat
wagons for that


You’ve never seen pallets being wheeled around supermarkets etc on one of
these?

https://www.northerntool.com/images/product/2000x2000/558/55833_2000x2000.jpg


yeah, In an earlier life I occasionally got to "drive" one

but I think their load is far more limited compared with a fork lift

And. of course, they will only deliver the bottom pallet of a stack



and wheeled cages,


wheeled cages would work, but that means that the goods have to be
correctly
loaded into wheeled cages at the origin and the cages transported 6000
miles
on the ship.

That seems a little bit too much organisation to me

think updated BRUTES.


I have no idea what BRUTES is


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Universal_Trolley_Equipment

Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes


The only three trains a day is also a bit of a damp squib

how many container movements is that going to replace, 100 or 2?


Going from the OP, I’d guess 12 per day, or 24 if they’re running both
units together. And if it’s successful, scope for more.

and how many containers arrive at the port every day - Google tells me
that
the largest ships can carry 19 thousand, so 100,000 per day??

OK they aren't all going to London, but what the heck!


Plenty get transported around the country by train;


Yes I know, I was being awkward

:-)

tim




[email protected] October 22nd 19 04:02 PM

Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
 
On 22/10/2019 14:34, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
wrote:
On 22/10/2019 12:53, Graeme Wall wrote:
On 22/10/2019 12:40, tim... wrote:


"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
...
On 22/10/2019 11:35, tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...
From:

https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577



One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a
new role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central
London from
a container port using old passenger trains.


Have I understood this right?

someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port

transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage
individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s)

and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual
units onto little trucks

Actually into vans


What size of individual unit is this going to work for?


Pallets

the problem with pallets is they presumably need to be fork lifted

and you aren't going to be able to load up a train carriage through a
couple of side doors (even if you widen them) using fork lifts, you'd
need flat wagons for that

and wheeled cages,

wheeled cages would work, but that means that the goods have to be
correctly loaded into wheeled cages at the origin and the cages
transported 6000 miles on the ship.

No, the wheeled cages are loaded at the distribution depot. As someone
else explained container loads with goods for multiple destinations get
broken down at a distribution depot and made up into individual
cage-loads for each destination. Normally then taken by van from the
depot to the customer. The problem with the Orion concept is that it
involves an extra handling phase, depot - train - van. However with the
increased charges for operating diesel vehicles in major city centres it
could well be economically feasible. The alternative would be to utilise
electric lorries from the depot in the first place.


That seems a little bit too much organisation to me

think updated BRUTES.

I have no idea what BRUTES is

Are (or were, have any been preserved?): British Rail UTility Equipment,
wheeled cages that could be formed into "trains". A common sight at
major stations when BR was in the parcels business (Red Star).

There were also placed onto trains, sometimes into the guards' van or
more commonly onto dedicated trains. Ramps were provided but this could
be achieved without.

There are still one or two modified BUTES around but they're now used
for other purposes.



Different cages and different trains but the same concept - I remember
watching a postal train call at Cardiff in the last few months before the
service was curtailed - the speed and agility with which the staff loaded
the 'York'(?) trolleys onto the train was very impressive, particularly
considering they had to use a ramp with a 90° angle (and a turntable!) due
to the limited platform width.


The signs showing the locations for destinations on the mail and parcel
trains are still located on Temple Meads railway station. I often
wonder if they are included in the listed status of the station.


Anna Noyd-Dryver October 22nd 19 04:41 PM

Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
 
tim... wrote:


"Anna Noyd-Dryver" wrote in message
...
tim... wrote:


"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
...
On 22/10/2019 11:35, tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...
From:

https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577

One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new
role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London
from
a container port using old passenger trains.


Have I understood this right?

someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port

transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage
individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s)

and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual
units onto little trucks

Actually into vans


What size of individual unit is this going to work for?


Pallets

the problem with pallets is they presumably need to be fork lifted

and you aren't going to be able to load up a train carriage through a
couple
of side doors (even if you widen them) using fork lifts, you'd need flat
wagons for that


You’ve never seen pallets being wheeled around supermarkets etc on one of
these?

https://www.northerntool.com/images/product/2000x2000/558/55833_2000x2000.jpg


yeah, In an earlier life I occasionally got to "drive" one

but I think their load is far more limited compared with a fork lift


2.5 tonnes according to the various images at the top of the first page of
a google search.

And. of course, they will only deliver the bottom pallet of a stack


How high do you think they’ll be stacked within a train carriage?


Anna Noyd-Dryver

Graeme Wall October 22nd 19 04:43 PM

Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
 
On 22/10/2019 15:39, tim... wrote:


"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
...
On 22/10/2019 12:40, tim... wrote:


"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
...
On 22/10/2019 11:35, tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...
From:

https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577


One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a
new role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central
London from
a container port using old passenger trains.


Have I understood this right?

someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port

transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage
individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s)

and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by
individual units onto little trucks

Actually into vans


What size of individual unit is this going to work for?


Pallets

the problem with pallets is they presumably need to be fork lifted

and you aren't going to be able to load up a train carriage through a
couple of side doors (even if you widen them) using fork lifts, you'd
need flat wagons for that

and wheeled cages,

wheeled cages would work, but that means that the goods have to be
correctly loaded into wheeled cages at the origin and the cages
transported 6000 miles on the ship.


No, the wheeled cages are loaded at the distribution depot. As someone
else explained container loads with goods for multiple destinations
get broken down at a distribution depot and made up into individual
cage-loads for each destination. Normally then taken by van from the
depot to the customer. The problem with the Orion concept is that it
involves an extra handling phase, depot - train - van.


I still can't get my head around, that it's not two extra steps


One step: depot to van

Two steps, depot to train to van


However with the increased charges for operating diesel vehicles in
major city centres it could well be economically feasible.


Yes I can see that.

The question is "will it?" (rhetorical.)


The $64,000 question.


The alternative would be to utilise electric lorries from the depot in
the first place.


That seems a little bit too much organisation to me

think updated BRUTES.

I have no idea what BRUTES is


Are (or were, have any been preserved?): British Rail UTility
Equipment, wheeled cages that could be formed into "trains". A common
sight at major stations when BR was in the parcels business (Red Star).


Oh I know what you mean now,* Never knew the name though.

Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes

The only three trains a day is also a bit of a damp squib

how many container movements is that going to replace, 100 or 2?

and how many containers arrive at the port every day - Google tells
me that the largest ships can carry 19 thousand, so 100,000 per day??


They don't all get delivered to one port.


Oh OK.


The ship will continue on, most likely to Antwerp or Rotterdam if
eastbound, to make further deliveries.


--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.


Graeme Wall October 22nd 19 04:44 PM

Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
 
On 22/10/2019 15:43, tim... wrote:


"Anna Noyd-Dryver" wrote in message
...
tim... wrote:


"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
...
On 22/10/2019 11:35, tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...
From:

https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577


One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new
role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London
from
a container port using old passenger trains.


Have I understood this right?

someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port

transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage
individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s)

and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual
units onto little trucks

Actually into vans


What size of individual unit is this going to work for?


Pallets

the problem with pallets is they presumably need to be fork lifted

and you aren't going to be able to load up a train carriage through a
couple
of side doors (even if you widen them) using fork lifts, you'd need flat
wagons for that


You’ve never seen pallets being wheeled around supermarkets etc on one of
these?

https://www.northerntool.com/images/product/2000x2000/558/55833_2000x2000.jpg


yeah, In an earlier life I occasionally got to "drive" one

but I think their load is far more limited compared with a fork lift

And. of course, they will only deliver the bottom pallet of a stack



and wheeled cages,

wheeled cages would work, but that means that the goods have to be
correctly
loaded into wheeled cages at the origin and the cages transported
6000 miles
on the ship.

That seems a little bit too much organisation to me

think updated BRUTES.

I have no idea what BRUTES is


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Universal_Trolley_Equipment


Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes

The only three trains a day is also a bit of a damp squib

how many container movements is that going to replace, 100 or 2?


Going from the OP, I’d guess 12 per day, or 24 if they’re running both
units together. And if it’s successful, scope for more.

and how many containers arrive at the port every day - Google tells
me that
the largest ships can carry 19 thousand, so 100,000 per day??

OK they aren't all going to London, but what the heck!


Plenty get transported around the country by train;


Yes I know, I was being awkward

:-)


Awkward, you? Surely not :-)


--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.


Recliner[_4_] October 22nd 19 05:08 PM

Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
 
Marland wrote:
tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...
Graeme Wall wrote:
On 22/10/2019 11:35, tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...
From:

https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577



One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new
role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London
from
a container port using old passenger trains.


Have I understood this right?

someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port

transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage
individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s)

and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual
units onto little trucks

Actually into vans


What size of individual unit is this going to work for?


Pallets and wheeled cages, think updated BRUTES.

Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes

His scheme involved autonomous, self-propelled containers being carried on
the convertible upper deck of his giant high speed double-decker trains.
They would drive themselves right to the cutomer's address.


you might jest, but I feel sure that Amazon are looking at doing that sort
of thing without the train involvement

tim





The Ocado depot in Andover Hampshire burnt down early this possibly because
the fire precautions were not thought through enough, that withstanding the
publicity from the incident did show how far the technology of
autonomous sorting equipment has become and similar equipment is used
elsewhere.
video of the Ocado system here, it would not be inconceivable to think that
some of the units could be programmed to load themselves onto a truck or
train get taken to distribution point and once self driving vehicle
technology has developed complete the last leg though I imagine at first it
would be other warehouses.

Ocado before it burnt.

https://youtu.be/4DKrcpa8Z_E


Automated robots following tracks in flat factory floors aren't new, and
the Ocado ones run in a segregated environment where they don't have to
steer clear of people or other vehicles. Extrapolating that to the general
problem of operating in a public space, where they have to self-navigate
around people and other vehicles, across curbs and bumpy surfaces, obeying
traffic lights, etc is a difficult problem whose solution isn't imminent.
Level 5 autonomous cars are certainly more than a decade away, perhaps much
more.



John Kenyon October 22nd 19 05:10 PM

Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
 
On 22/10/2019 12:40, tim... wrote:


think updated BRUTES.


I have no idea what BRUTES is


Plural of BRUTE aka "British Rail Universal Trolley Equipment"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britis...lley_Equipment



Marland October 22nd 19 05:18 PM

Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
 
tim... wrote:


wrote in message
...
On 22/10/2019 12:53, Graeme Wall wrote:
On 22/10/2019 12:40, tim... wrote:


"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
...
On 22/10/2019 11:35, tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...
From:

https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577

One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new
role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London
from
a container port using old passenger trains.


Have I understood this right?

someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port

transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage
individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s)

and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual
units onto little trucks

Actually into vans


What size of individual unit is this going to work for?


Pallets

the problem with pallets is they presumably need to be fork lifted

and you aren't going to be able to load up a train carriage through a
couple of side doors (even if you widen them) using fork lifts, you'd
need flat wagons for that

and wheeled cages,

wheeled cages would work, but that means that the goods have to be
correctly loaded into wheeled cages at the origin and the cages
transported 6000 miles on the ship.

No, the wheeled cages are loaded at the distribution depot. As someone
else explained container loads with goods for multiple destinations get
broken down at a distribution depot and made up into individual
cage-loads for each destination. Normally then taken by van from the
depot to the customer. The problem with the Orion concept is that it
involves an extra handling phase, depot - train - van. However with the
increased charges for operating diesel vehicles in major city centres it
could well be economically feasible. The alternative would be to utilise
electric lorries from the depot in the first place.


That seems a little bit too much organisation to me

think updated BRUTES.

I have no idea what BRUTES is

Are (or were, have any been preserved?): British Rail UTility Equipment,
wheeled cages that could be formed into "trains". A common sight at major
stations when BR was in the parcels business (Red Star).

There were also placed onto trains, sometimes into the guards' van or more
commonly onto dedicated trains. Ramps were provided but this could be
achieved without.

There are still one or two modified BUTES around but they're now used for
other purposes.


flower displays :-)

tim





They used to make good extra seating when left on platforms.


GH


Graeme Wall October 22nd 19 05:22 PM

Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
 
On 22/10/2019 17:08, Recliner wrote:
Marland wrote:
tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...
Graeme Wall wrote:
On 22/10/2019 11:35, tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...
From:

https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577



One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new
role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London
from
a container port using old passenger trains.


Have I understood this right?

someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port

transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage
individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s)

and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual
units onto little trucks

Actually into vans


What size of individual unit is this going to work for?


Pallets and wheeled cages, think updated BRUTES.

Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes

His scheme involved autonomous, self-propelled containers being carried on
the convertible upper deck of his giant high speed double-decker trains.
They would drive themselves right to the cutomer's address.

you might jest, but I feel sure that Amazon are looking at doing that sort
of thing without the train involvement

tim





The Ocado depot in Andover Hampshire burnt down early this possibly because
the fire precautions were not thought through enough, that withstanding the
publicity from the incident did show how far the technology of
autonomous sorting equipment has become and similar equipment is used
elsewhere.
video of the Ocado system here, it would not be inconceivable to think that
some of the units could be programmed to load themselves onto a truck or
train get taken to distribution point and once self driving vehicle
technology has developed complete the last leg though I imagine at first it
would be other warehouses.

Ocado before it burnt.

https://youtu.be/4DKrcpa8Z_E


Automated robots following tracks in flat factory floors aren't new,


The first ones were in the late 1960s IIRC.


--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.


tim... October 22nd 19 05:30 PM

Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
 


"Anna Noyd-Dryver" wrote in message
...
tim... wrote:


And. of course, they will only deliver the bottom pallet of a stack


How high do you think they’ll be stacked within a train carriage?


more than one

tim




tim... October 22nd 19 05:30 PM

Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
 


"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
...
On 22/10/2019 15:43, tim... wrote:


"Anna Noyd-Dryver" wrote in message
...
tim... wrote:


"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
...
On 22/10/2019 11:35, tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...
From:

https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577

One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a
new
role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central
London
from
a container port using old passenger trains.


Have I understood this right?

someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port

transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage
individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s)

and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual
units onto little trucks

Actually into vans


What size of individual unit is this going to work for?


Pallets

the problem with pallets is they presumably need to be fork lifted

and you aren't going to be able to load up a train carriage through a
couple
of side doors (even if you widen them) using fork lifts, you'd need
flat
wagons for that


You’ve never seen pallets being wheeled around supermarkets etc on one
of
these?

https://www.northerntool.com/images/product/2000x2000/558/55833_2000x2000.jpg


yeah, In an earlier life I occasionally got to "drive" one

but I think their load is far more limited compared with a fork lift

And. of course, they will only deliver the bottom pallet of a stack



and wheeled cages,

wheeled cages would work, but that means that the goods have to be
correctly
loaded into wheeled cages at the origin and the cages transported 6000
miles
on the ship.

That seems a little bit too much organisation to me

think updated BRUTES.

I have no idea what BRUTES is


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Universal_Trolley_Equipment

Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes

The only three trains a day is also a bit of a damp squib

how many container movements is that going to replace, 100 or 2?


Going from the OP, I’d guess 12 per day, or 24 if they’re running both
units together. And if it’s successful, scope for more.

and how many containers arrive at the port every day - Google tells me
that
the largest ships can carry 19 thousand, so 100,000 per day??

OK they aren't all going to London, but what the heck!


Plenty get transported around the country by train;


Yes I know, I was being awkward

:-)


Awkward, you? Surely not :-)


I learnt it from Roland :-)




tim... October 22nd 19 05:34 PM

Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
 


"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 12:40:02 on Tue, 22 Oct 2019,
tim... remarked:

think updated BRUTES.


I have no idea what BRUTES is


Are.


If you think you were correcting my grammar, fraid not

I had assumed it was the name of a concept or system solution, say like
TOPS.




tim... October 22nd 19 05:55 PM

Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
 


"Recliner" wrote in message
...

Automated robots following tracks in flat factory floors aren't new, and
the Ocado ones run in a segregated environment where they don't have to
steer clear of people or other vehicles. Extrapolating that to the general
problem of operating in a public space, where they have to self-navigate
around people and other vehicles, across curbs and bumpy surfaces, obeying
traffic lights, etc is a difficult problem whose solution isn't imminent.


Some of the "inside the factory" series have shown robot vehicles moving
around freely (obviously to some pre-programmed destination) and stopping
for people who get in their way

Cherry and Greg almost wet themselves at how exciting this technology is :-)
[1]

Can't remember which ones

tim

[1] Sorry that's an in joke from elsewhere



John Levine[_2_] October 22nd 19 06:22 PM

Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
 
In article ,
Recliner wrote:
The trains, due for delivery in May, are having their seats removed and
being fitted with diesel engines. The engines will generate power when the
train is not running on non-electrified lines, such as the freight sidings ...


Don't they mean that the engines will not generate power when the
train is not running on non-electrified lines?

--
Regards,
John Levine, , Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail.
https://jl.ly

Certes October 22nd 19 06:58 PM

Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
 
On 22/10/2019 18:22, John Levine wrote:
In article ,
Recliner wrote:
The trains, due for delivery in May, are having their seats removed and
being fitted with diesel engines. The engines will generate power when the
train is not running on non-electrified lines, such as the freight sidings ...


Don't they mean that the engines will not generate power when the
train is not running on non-electrified lines?


Perhaps they will generate power when the train is on non-electrified
lines but not running, as opposed to being on non-electrified lines and
coasting along with the momentum gained previously from the wires behind
it. But I don't think that's what they meant.

Anna Noyd-Dryver October 22nd 19 07:46 PM

Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
 
tim... wrote:


"Anna Noyd-Dryver" wrote in message
...
tim... wrote:


And. of course, they will only deliver the bottom pallet of a stack


How high do you think they’ll be stacked within a train carriage?


more than one


The pallets I’ve seen on supermarket shop floors are stacked to about 6
feet high and wrapped in shrink wrap. I didn’t realise 769s had 12 foot
internal headroom...


Anna Noyd-Dryver


[email protected] October 22nd 19 07:53 PM

Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
 
On 22/10/2019 10:58, Recliner wrote:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 08:49:40 on Tue, 22 Oct
2019, Recliner remarked:

Once the packages arrive at Liverpool Street, they will be distributed to
their final destinations around the city by electric van or cargo bikes.


Whatever happened to the very similar sounding scheme a couple of years
ago to deliver packages to Euston in the small hours, and have them
distributed by electric vans?


That was a one-off concept demonstration, back in June 2014. It was
organised by a consultancy (Intermodality) with Colas Rail and TNT. The
demo proved that the idea was workable, but my guess is that the economics
weren't favourable at the time. Things have obviously changed six years
later.


Whatever happened with the pilot programme to move freight about
Amsterdam via tram?

There was also CarGo in Leipzig, which served the VW plant in the area.
I wonder if anybody is thinking of restarting that service or even
expanding it to serve other parts of town.

[email protected] October 22nd 19 08:05 PM

Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
 
On 22/10/2019 19:53, wrote:
On 22/10/2019 10:58, Recliner wrote:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 08:49:40 on Tue, 22 Oct
2019, Recliner remarked:

Once the packages arrive at Liverpool Street, they will be
distributed to
their final destinations around the city by electric van or cargo
bikes.

Whatever happened to the very similar sounding scheme a couple of years
ago to deliver packages to Euston in the small hours, and have them
distributed by electric vans?


That was a one-off concept demonstration, back in June 2014. It was
organised by a consultancy (Intermodality) with Colas Rail and TNT. The
demo proved that the idea was workable, but my guess is that the
economics
weren't favourable at the time. Things have obviously changed six years
later.


Whatever happened with the pilot programme to move freight about
Amsterdam via tram?

There was also CarGo in Leipzig, which served the VW plant in the area.
I wonder if anybody is thinking of restarting that service or even
expanding it to serve other parts of town.


We can reintroduce prison trams as well:-
http://trippr.info/2018/02/07/look-b...9-prison-tram/

[email protected] October 22nd 19 08:50 PM

Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
 
On 22/10/2019 10:12, Graeme Wall wrote:
On 22/10/2019 09:49, Recliner wrote:
From:

https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577


One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new
role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London
from
a container port using old passenger trains.

The first service, which is due to start in May between London Gateway
and
London Liverpool Street, is intended to help hauliers avoid the charges
from London’s Ultra-Low Emissions Zone (ULEZ), which was introduced this
year, and the congestion zone. It would also take traffic off the heavily
congested A13 that links the port near Thurrock in Essex to the capital.

A specialist rail engineering company, Rail Operations Group, is working
with DP World, the owner of London Gateway, to develop the low-emissions
scheme to compete with road hauliers to move consumer goods and freight
nearer to their final destination in London.

Karl Watts, ROG chief executive, said the response to its plans from
logistics companies and retailers had been “overwhelming,” although he
declined to name any customers that had signed up for the service.

Paul Orchard, ROG production director, said a series of different
companies
— including logistics companies and retailers — were looking at
participating.

Heavy goods vehicles that fall short of the standards required for the
ULEZ
have to pay a charge of £100 for each trip into the zone, which from
April
this year mirrors the congestion-charging zone in central London. From
October 2021, Transport for London will extend ULEZ to cover the area
within the north and south circular roads.

Mr Orchard said road hauliers can face environmental charges of up to
£200
on a return trip into the capital depending on timing and the type of
vehicle used. “The margins are in some cases wafer-thin,” Mr Orchard said
of road transport. “You start adding in an extra £200 . . . and that’s
enough to make rail competitive.”

ROG, which will offer the service under the “Orion” brand, plans to
initially run three round-trip rail services per day outside of peak
hours.
It plans to use two converted, four-carriage trains that previously
operated the Thameslink cross-London passenger route.

The trains, due for delivery in May, are having their seats removed and
being fitted with diesel engines. The engines will generate power when
the
train is not running on non-electrified lines, such as the freight
sidings
at London Gateway. ROG estimates that each carriage on its trains will
carry around the same as a heavy truck.

Once the packages arrive at Liverpool Street, they will be distributed to
their final destinations around the city by electric van or cargo bikes.
Liverpool Street is the UK’s third-busiest station with 67m passengers
using it in the year to the end of March 2018.

ROG is looking to expand the service and is talking to customers about
other destinations, including possible overnight trains between London
and
Scotland and from London to Bristol.

DP World confirmed it had held discussions with ROG about starting the
service. It said it was also talking to the Port of London Authority on
plans to use barges to move some goods to a site in Fulham, west
London, by
river.


Then ship them up the Grand Union to* Birmingham!


I've wondered whether the Grand Union or even the Caledonian could find
commercial use once again.

Perhaps the Regents Canal from Limehouse up to Paddington Station via
Little Venice? That would require an intermodal station, however.

Does Sweden's Göta Canal ever see any commercial traffic?

Marland October 22nd 19 11:37 PM

Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
 
Recliner wrote:
Marland wrote:
tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...
Graeme Wall wrote:
On 22/10/2019 11:35, tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...
From:

https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577



One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new
role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London
from
a container port using old passenger trains.


Have I understood this right?

someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port

transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage
individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s)

and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual
units onto little trucks

Actually into vans


What size of individual unit is this going to work for?


Pallets and wheeled cages, think updated BRUTES.

Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes

His scheme involved autonomous, self-propelled containers being carried on
the convertible upper deck of his giant high speed double-decker trains.
They would drive themselves right to the cutomer's address.

you might jest, but I feel sure that Amazon are looking at doing that sort
of thing without the train involvement

tim





The Ocado depot in Andover Hampshire burnt down early this possibly because
the fire precautions were not thought through enough, that withstanding the
publicity from the incident did show how far the technology of
autonomous sorting equipment has become and similar equipment is used
elsewhere.
video of the Ocado system here, it would not be inconceivable to think that
some of the units could be programmed to load themselves onto a truck or
train get taken to distribution point and once self driving vehicle
technology has developed complete the last leg though I imagine at first it
would be other warehouses.

Ocado before it burnt.

https://youtu.be/4DKrcpa8Z_E


Automated robots following tracks in flat factory floors aren't new, and
the Ocado ones run in a segregated environment where they don't have to
steer clear of people or other vehicles. Extrapolating that to the general
problem of operating in a public space, where they have to self-navigate
around people and other vehicles, across curbs and bumpy surfaces, obeying
traffic lights, etc is a difficult problem whose solution isn't imminent.
Level 5 autonomous cars are certainly more than a decade away, perhaps much
more.




Have no argument with the long development time for autonomous vehicles
which is why I added the caveat
of first use could be to other warehouses ,which might be the store for a
large supermarket and further replace
the need for human staff

As it happens the system used by Ocado is little more sophisticated than a
flat factory floor in that the storage baskets are stacked several tiers
vertically, as well horizontally and the system stores items less in
demand at the bottom. And while it may be a controlled environment they do
have to avoid each other.

I wouldn’t expect to see anything like them roam free in public space
anytime soon but was more using them as an example that the late Mr Bells
idea of self loading cargo pods might not be so outlandish though not on a
super gauge railway.


GH


Recliner[_4_] October 22nd 19 11:56 PM

Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
 
Marland wrote:
Recliner wrote:
Marland wrote:
tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...
Graeme Wall wrote:
On 22/10/2019 11:35, tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...
From:

https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577



One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new
role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London
from
a container port using old passenger trains.


Have I understood this right?

someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port

transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage
individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s)

and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual
units onto little trucks

Actually into vans


What size of individual unit is this going to work for?


Pallets and wheeled cages, think updated BRUTES.

Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes

His scheme involved autonomous, self-propelled containers being carried on
the convertible upper deck of his giant high speed double-decker trains.
They would drive themselves right to the cutomer's address.

you might jest, but I feel sure that Amazon are looking at doing that sort
of thing without the train involvement

tim





The Ocado depot in Andover Hampshire burnt down early this possibly because
the fire precautions were not thought through enough, that withstanding the
publicity from the incident did show how far the technology of
autonomous sorting equipment has become and similar equipment is used
elsewhere.
video of the Ocado system here, it would not be inconceivable to think that
some of the units could be programmed to load themselves onto a truck or
train get taken to distribution point and once self driving vehicle
technology has developed complete the last leg though I imagine at first it
would be other warehouses.

Ocado before it burnt.

https://youtu.be/4DKrcpa8Z_E


Automated robots following tracks in flat factory floors aren't new, and
the Ocado ones run in a segregated environment where they don't have to
steer clear of people or other vehicles. Extrapolating that to the general
problem of operating in a public space, where they have to self-navigate
around people and other vehicles, across curbs and bumpy surfaces, obeying
traffic lights, etc is a difficult problem whose solution isn't imminent.
Level 5 autonomous cars are certainly more than a decade away, perhaps much
more.




Have no argument with the long development time for autonomous vehicles
which is why I added the caveat
of first use could be to other warehouses ,which might be the store for a
large supermarket and further replace
the need for human staff

As it happens the system used by Ocado is little more sophisticated than a
flat factory floor in that the storage baskets are stacked several tiers
vertically, as well horizontally and the system stores items less in
demand at the bottom. And while it may be a controlled environment they do
have to avoid each other.


Which is a lot easier than avoiding random pedestrians, cyclists, dogs,
cars, buses, etc.


I wouldn’t expect to see anything like them roam free in public space
anytime soon but was more using them as an example that the late Mr Bells
idea of self loading cargo pods might not be so outlandish though not on a
super gauge railway.


I think Michael's grand vision in this area was based on a number of
individually feasible, or at least theoretically possible, elements, but
collectively it was far from practical. That was true of many of his grand
plans, which generally weren't based on impossible science. One rare
exception was his strange belief that taller high speed trains would be
more stable than squatter ones.



Roland Perry October 23rd 19 06:41 AM

Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
 
In message , at 20:50:41 on Tue, 22
Oct 2019, " remarked:
On 22/10/2019 10:12, Graeme Wall wrote:
On 22/10/2019 09:49, Recliner wrote:
From:


https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-...d8281195?segme
ntId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577

One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a
new role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central
London from
a container port using old passenger trains.

The first service, which is due to start in May between London
Gateway and
London Liverpool Street, is intended to help hauliers avoid the charges
from London’s Ultra-Low Emissions Zone (ULEZ), which was introduced this
year, and the congestion zone. It would also take traffic off the heavily
congested A13 that links the port near Thurrock in Essex to the capital.

A specialist rail engineering company, Rail Operations Group, is working
with DP World, the owner of London Gateway, to develop the low-emissions
scheme to compete with road hauliers to move consumer goods and freight
nearer to their final destination in London.

Karl Watts, ROG chief executive, said the response to its plans from
logistics companies and retailers had been “overwhelming,” although he
declined to name any customers that had signed up for the service.

Paul Orchard, ROG production director, said a series of different
companies
— including logistics companies and retailers — were looking at
participating.

Heavy goods vehicles that fall short of the standards required for
the ULEZ
have to pay a charge of £100 for each trip into the zone, which
from April
this year mirrors the congestion-charging zone in central London. From
October 2021, Transport for London will extend ULEZ to cover the area
within the north and south circular roads.

Mr Orchard said road hauliers can face environmental charges of up
to £200
on a return trip into the capital depending on timing and the type of
vehicle used. “The margins are in some cases wafer-thin,” Mr
Orchard said
of road transport. “You start adding in an extra £200?.?.?.?and
that’s
enough to make rail competitive.”

ROG, which will offer the service under the “Orion” brand, plans to
initially run three round-trip rail services per day outside of peak
hours.
It plans to use two converted, four-carriage trains that previously
operated the Thameslink cross-London passenger route.

The trains, due for delivery in May, are having their seats removed and
being fitted with diesel engines. The engines will generate power
when the
train is not running on non-electrified lines, such as the freight
sidings
at London Gateway. ROG estimates that each carriage on its trains will
carry around the same as a heavy truck.

Once the packages arrive at Liverpool Street, they will be distributed to
their final destinations around the city by electric van or cargo bikes.
Liverpool Street is the UK’s third-busiest station with 67m passengers
using it in the year to the end of March 2018.

ROG is looking to expand the service and is talking to customers about
other destinations, including possible overnight trains between
London and
Scotland and from London to Bristol.

DP World confirmed it had held discussions with ROG about starting the
service. It said it was also talking to the Port of London Authority on
plans to use barges to move some goods to a site in Fulham, west
London, by
river.

Then ship them up the Grand Union to* Birmingham!


I've wondered whether the Grand Union or even the Caledonian could find
commercial use once again.

Perhaps the Regents Canal from Limehouse up to Paddington Station via
Little Venice? That would require an intermodal station, however.

Does Sweden's Göta Canal ever see any commercial traffic?


If the road hauliers are worried about their HGVs being banned, then
they could recruit OAPs (with Freedom cards) to hand-carry items from a
railhead near the M25. Brentwood to the east and Chorleywood to the
northwest. There's even a pub near each station where the OAPs could
gather while waiting for the HGVs to arrive.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry October 23rd 19 06:45 AM

Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
 
In message , at 17:34:28 on Tue, 22 Oct
2019, tim... remarked:


"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 12:40:02 on Tue, 22 Oct
2019, tim... remarked:

think updated BRUTES.

I have no idea what BRUTES is


Are.


If you think you were correcting my grammar, fraid not

I had assumed it was the name of a concept or system solution, say like
TOPS.


It's dispelling that assumption which requires your grammar to be
corrected.
--
Roland Perry

tim... October 23rd 19 08:08 AM

Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
 


"Anna Noyd-Dryver" wrote in message
...
tim... wrote:


"Anna Noyd-Dryver" wrote in message
...
tim... wrote:


And. of course, they will only deliver the bottom pallet of a stack


How high do you think they’ll be stacked within a train carriage?


more than one


The pallets I’ve seen on supermarket shop floors are stacked to about 6
feet high and wrapped in shrink wrap. I didn’t realise 769s had 12 foot
internal headroom...


from personal experience:

you wouldn't want to be moving around a 6 foot high stack with a hand driven
thingy

you need the item to be no higher than you can reasonably see over the top







Anna Noyd-Dryver


[email protected] October 23rd 19 08:17 AM

Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
 
On 23/10/2019 08:08, tim... wrote:


"Anna Noyd-Dryver" wrote in message
...
tim... wrote:


"Anna Noyd-Dryver" wrote in message
...
tim... wrote:

And. of course, they will only deliver the bottom pallet of a stack


How high do you think they’ll be stacked within a train carriage?

more than one


The pallets I’ve seen on supermarket shop floors are stacked to about 6
feet high and wrapped in shrink wrap. I didn’t realise 769s had 12 foot
internal headroom...


from personal experience:

you wouldn't want to be moving around a 6 foot high stack with a hand
driven thingy

you need the item to be no higher than you can reasonably see over the top


Tell that to Asda. Our local one has been re-fitted with their extra
high shelves and I'm forever being asked to reach items from the top one.

tim... October 23rd 19 09:26 AM

Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
 


wrote in message
...
On 23/10/2019 08:08, tim... wrote:


"Anna Noyd-Dryver" wrote in message
...
tim... wrote:


"Anna Noyd-Dryver" wrote in message
...
tim... wrote:

And. of course, they will only deliver the bottom pallet of a stack


How high do you think they’ll be stacked within a train carriage?

more than one


The pallets I’ve seen on supermarket shop floors are stacked to about 6
feet high and wrapped in shrink wrap. I didn’t realise 769s had 12 foot
internal headroom...


from personal experience:

you wouldn't want to be moving around a 6 foot high stack with a hand
driven thingy

you need the item to be no higher than you can reasonably see over the
top


Tell that to Asda. Our local one has been re-fitted with their extra high
shelves and I'm forever being asked to reach items from the top one.


That's a bit different from trying to push and steer a few hundredweight of
pallet around the store, isn't it?

As an aside, the 2.5 tonnes that (we have been told) these things can move
is never going to be likely in a manual loaded environment. With a 20 kg
personal lifting limit that's 100+ boxes per load.

Manually loading 100 boxes onto a single pallet repeatedly, just ain't gonna
happen


tim




Graeme Wall October 23rd 19 10:10 AM

Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
 
On 23/10/2019 09:26, tim... wrote:


wrote in message
...
On 23/10/2019 08:08, tim... wrote:


"Anna Noyd-Dryver" wrote in message
...
tim... wrote:


"Anna Noyd-Dryver" wrote in message
...
tim... wrote:

And. of course, they will only deliver the bottom pallet of a stack


How high do you think they’ll be stacked within a train carriage?

more than one


The pallets I’ve seen on supermarket shop floors are stacked to about 6
feet high and wrapped in shrink wrap. I didn’t realise 769s had 12 foot
internal headroom...

from personal experience:

you wouldn't want to be moving around a 6 foot high stack with a hand
driven thingy

you need the item to be no higher than you can reasonably see over
the top


Tell that to Asda.* Our local one has been re-fitted with their extra
high shelves and I'm forever being asked to reach items from the top one.


That's a bit different from trying to push and steer a few hundredweight
of pallet around the store, isn't it?

As an aside, the 2.5 tonnes that (we have been told) these things can
move is never going to be likely in a manual loaded environment.* With a
20 kg personal lifting limit that's 100+ boxes per load.

Manually loading 100 boxes onto a single pallet repeatedly, just ain't
gonna happen


You are assuming they will be loaded manually.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.


tim... October 23rd 19 11:07 AM

Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
 


"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
...
On 23/10/2019 09:26, tim... wrote:


Manually loading 100 boxes onto a single pallet repeatedly, just ain't
gonna happen


You are assuming they will be loaded manually.


I thought we'd established that's the MO here

tim



Graeme Wall October 23rd 19 11:13 AM

Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
 
On 23/10/2019 11:07, tim... wrote:


"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
...
On 23/10/2019 09:26, tim... wrote:


Manually loading 100 boxes onto a single pallet repeatedly, just
ain't gonna happen


You are assuming they will be loaded manually.


I thought we'd established that's the MO here


Depends how the are loaded into the container at origin, could already
be palletised. Automatic loading of individual items onto pallets is
also possible but the latter are more likely to loaded into cages which
are already in use so they have to loaded somehow.


--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.


Basil Jet[_4_] October 24th 19 01:01 PM

Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
 
On 22/10/2019 14:35, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:

The taxi rank used to be between platforms 10 and 11, at platform level.
ISTR seeing service vehicles in that area on a recent journey, so
presumably there’s still access.


There still is a taxi rank between platforms 10 & 11, at platform level.

--
Basil Jet recently enjoyed listening to
Tortoise - 2016 - The Catastrophist

Sam Wilson October 24th 19 02:06 PM

Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
 
On 2019-10-22 12:43:57 +0000, Anna Noyd-Dryver said:

tim... wrote:

the problem with pallets is they presumably need to be fork lifted

and you aren't going to be able to load up a train carriage through a couple
of side doors (even if you widen them) using fork lifts, you'd need flat
wagons for that


You’ve never seen pallets being wheeled around supermarkets etc on one of
these?

https://www.northerntool.com/images/product/2000x2000/558/55833_2000x2000.jpg


Some lorries (and, I think, many aircraft) are fitted with handling
systems in the floor for allowing loads to be shifted around without
having to run a vehicle inside the cargo space. The ones in trucks
were known as 'jo-loaders' when had student summer jobs, but that was
some time ago and I can't find many references to that term now.

Sam

--
The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.


Anna Noyd-Dryver October 24th 19 03:56 PM

Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
 
Basil Jet wrote:
On 22/10/2019 14:35, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:

The taxi rank used to be between platforms 10 and 11, at platform level.
ISTR seeing service vehicles in that area on a recent journey, so
presumably there’s still access.


There still is a taxi rank between platforms 10 & 11, at platform level.


Yes, I managed to miss the taxi logo on the NR website when I looked to
check platform numbers, and I posted before seeing Recliner(?)'s post
saying that the taxi rank is still in that location.


Anna Noyd-Dryver


Anna Noyd-Dryver October 31st 19 08:19 AM

Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
 
tim... wrote:


"Anna Noyd-Dryver" wrote in message
...
tim... wrote:


"Anna Noyd-Dryver" wrote in message
...
tim... wrote:

And. of course, they will only deliver the bottom pallet of a stack


How high do you think they’ll be stacked within a train carriage?

more than one


The pallets I’ve seen on supermarket shop floors are stacked to about 6
feet high and wrapped in shrink wrap. I didn’t realise 769s had 12 foot
internal headroom...


from personal experience:

you wouldn't want to be moving around a 6 foot high stack with a hand driven
thingy

you need the item to be no higher than you can reasonably see over the top


Yesterday I noted a pallet being moved around on a pallet trolley at my
local Aldi; it was stacked to far above head height with plastic trays
containing loaves of sliced bread, the whole lot wrapped in cling film to
keep it together.


Anna Noyd-Dryver



Roland Perry October 31st 19 08:49 AM

Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
 
In message , at 08:19:15 on Thu, 31 Oct
2019, Anna Noyd-Dryver remarked:

you wouldn't want to be moving around a 6 foot high stack with a hand driven
thingy

you need the item to be no higher than you can reasonably see over the top


Yesterday I noted a pallet being moved around on a pallet trolley at my
local Aldi; it was stacked to far above head height with plastic trays
containing loaves of sliced bread, the whole lot wrapped in cling film to
keep it together.


I don't know if yours is different, but our Aldi takes no prisoners when
it comes to shelf-stacking. The staff expect customers to scatter when
they barge past with the pallets, and then leave them blocking the
aisle.
--
Roland Perry

Charles Ellson[_2_] November 1st 19 03:15 AM

Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
 
On Thu, 31 Oct 2019 08:49:07 +0000, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 08:19:15 on Thu, 31 Oct
2019, Anna Noyd-Dryver remarked:

you wouldn't want to be moving around a 6 foot high stack with a hand driven
thingy

you need the item to be no higher than you can reasonably see over the top


Yesterday I noted a pallet being moved around on a pallet trolley at my
local Aldi; it was stacked to far above head height with plastic trays
containing loaves of sliced bread, the whole lot wrapped in cling film to
keep it together.


I don't know if yours is different, but our Aldi takes no prisoners when
it comes to shelf-stacking. The staff expect customers to scatter when
they barge past with the pallets, and then leave them blocking the
aisle.

Sounds like various ASDA branches at 3am (but with more leisurely
pallet moving).

[email protected] November 1st 19 08:10 PM

Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
 
On Thu, 31 Oct 2019 08:49:07 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 08:19:15 on Thu, 31 Oct
2019, Anna Noyd-Dryver remarked:

you wouldn't want to be moving around a 6 foot high stack with a hand driven


thingy

you need the item to be no higher than you can reasonably see over the top


Yesterday I noted a pallet being moved around on a pallet trolley at my
local Aldi; it was stacked to far above head height with plastic trays
containing loaves of sliced bread, the whole lot wrapped in cling film to
keep it together.


I don't know if yours is different, but our Aldi takes no prisoners when
it comes to shelf-stacking. The staff expect customers to scatter when
they barge past with the pallets, and then leave them blocking the
aisle.


Its always good to be reminded why I avoid those branded famine relief
centres called Aldi and Lidl. God awful ********s.


Jeremy Double November 1st 19 08:25 PM

Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
 
wrote:
On Thu, 31 Oct 2019 08:49:07 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 08:19:15 on Thu, 31 Oct
2019, Anna Noyd-Dryver remarked:

you wouldn't want to be moving around a 6 foot high stack with a hand driven


thingy

you need the item to be no higher than you can reasonably see over the top


Yesterday I noted a pallet being moved around on a pallet trolley at my
local Aldi; it was stacked to far above head height with plastic trays
containing loaves of sliced bread, the whole lot wrapped in cling film to
keep it together.


I don't know if yours is different, but our Aldi takes no prisoners when
it comes to shelf-stacking. The staff expect customers to scatter when
they barge past with the pallets, and then leave them blocking the
aisle.


Its always good to be reminded why I avoid those branded famine relief
centres called Aldi and Lidl. God awful ********s.


Aldi do very good 70% dark chocolate, in packs of 5 small
individually-wrapped bars.

--
Jeremy Double

[email protected] November 1st 19 09:05 PM

Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
 
On 1 Nov 2019 20:25:15 GMT
Jeremy Double wrote:
wrote:
On Thu, 31 Oct 2019 08:49:07 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 08:19:15 on Thu, 31 Oct
2019, Anna Noyd-Dryver remarked:

you wouldn't want to be moving around a 6 foot high stack with a hand

driven

thingy

you need the item to be no higher than you can reasonably see over the top




Yesterday I noted a pallet being moved around on a pallet trolley at my
local Aldi; it was stacked to far above head height with plastic trays
containing loaves of sliced bread, the whole lot wrapped in cling film to
keep it together.

I don't know if yours is different, but our Aldi takes no prisoners when
it comes to shelf-stacking. The staff expect customers to scatter when
they barge past with the pallets, and then leave them blocking the
aisle.


Its always good to be reminded why I avoid those branded famine relief
centres called Aldi and Lidl. God awful ********s.


Aldi do very good 70% dark chocolate, in packs of 5 small
individually-wrapped bars.


Probably in high strength plastic so the chavs can't munch on them before
they've got to the till.



Jeremy Double November 1st 19 09:45 PM

Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
 
wrote:
On 1 Nov 2019 20:25:15 GMT
Jeremy Double wrote:
wrote:
On Thu, 31 Oct 2019 08:49:07 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 08:19:15 on Thu, 31 Oct
2019, Anna Noyd-Dryver remarked:

you wouldn't want to be moving around a 6 foot high stack with a hand

driven

thingy

you need the item to be no higher than you can reasonably see over the top




Yesterday I noted a pallet being moved around on a pallet trolley at my
local Aldi; it was stacked to far above head height with plastic trays
containing loaves of sliced bread, the whole lot wrapped in cling film to
keep it together.

I don't know if yours is different, but our Aldi takes no prisoners when
it comes to shelf-stacking. The staff expect customers to scatter when
they barge past with the pallets, and then leave them blocking the
aisle.

Its always good to be reminded why I avoid those branded famine relief
centres called Aldi and Lidl. God awful ********s.


Aldi do very good 70% dark chocolate, in packs of 5 small
individually-wrapped bars.


Probably in high strength plastic so the chavs can't munch on them before
they've got to the till.


No, packed in card, so they look like a 100 (ish) g bar of chocolate.

--
Jeremy Double

Anna Noyd-Dryver November 1st 19 10:12 PM

Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
 
wrote:
On 1 Nov 2019 20:25:15 GMT
Jeremy Double wrote:
wrote:
On Thu, 31 Oct 2019 08:49:07 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 08:19:15 on Thu, 31 Oct
2019, Anna Noyd-Dryver remarked:

you wouldn't want to be moving around a 6 foot high stack with a hand

driven

thingy

you need the item to be no higher than you can reasonably see over the top




Yesterday I noted a pallet being moved around on a pallet trolley at my
local Aldi; it was stacked to far above head height with plastic trays
containing loaves of sliced bread, the whole lot wrapped in cling film to
keep it together.

I don't know if yours is different, but our Aldi takes no prisoners when
it comes to shelf-stacking. The staff expect customers to scatter when
they barge past with the pallets, and then leave them blocking the
aisle.

Its always good to be reminded why I avoid those branded famine relief
centres called Aldi and Lidl. God awful ********s.


Aldi do very good 70% dark chocolate, in packs of 5 small
individually-wrapped bars.


Probably in high strength plastic so the chavs can't munch on them before
they've got to the till.


If it's the one I'm thinking of it's in cardboard and foil-paper.


Anna Noyd-Dryver



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