Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
 

Graeme Wall wrote:
On 22/10/2019 11:35, tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...
From:

https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577



One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new
role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London
from
a container port using old passenger trains.


Have I understood this right?

someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port

transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage
individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s)

and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual
units onto little trucks

Actually into vans


What size of individual unit is this going to work for?


Pallets and wheeled cages, think updated BRUTES.

Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes



His were autonomous, weren’t they? Were they 2' gauge or were they
rubber-tyred? I don’t remember.


Anna Noyd-Dryver

Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
 

On 22/10/2019 12:11, Recliner wrote:
Graeme Wall wrote:
On 22/10/2019 11:35, tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...
From:

https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577



One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new
role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London
from
a container port using old passenger trains.


Have I understood this right?

someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port

transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage
individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s)

and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual
units onto little trucks

Actually into vans


What size of individual unit is this going to work for?


Pallets and wheeled cages, think updated BRUTES.

Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes

His scheme involved autonomous, self-propelled containers being carried on
the convertible upper deck of his giant high speed double-decker trains.
They would drive themselves right to the cutomer's address.


Sounds like just the project for Elon.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
 

"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
...
On 22/10/2019 11:35, tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...
From:

https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577

One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new
role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London
from
a container port using old passenger trains.


Have I understood this right?

someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port

transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage
individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s)

and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual
units onto little trucks

Actually into vans


What size of individual unit is this going to work for?


Pallets

the problem with pallets is they presumably need to be fork lifted

and you aren't going to be able to load up a train carriage through a couple
of side doors (even if you widen them) using fork lifts, you'd need flat
wagons for that

and wheeled cages,

wheeled cages would work, but that means that the goods have to be correctly
loaded into wheeled cages at the origin and the cages transported 6000 miles
on the ship.

That seems a little bit too much organisation to me

think updated BRUTES.

I have no idea what BRUTES is

Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes

The only three trains a day is also a bit of a damp squib

how many container movements is that going to replace, 100 or 2?

and how many containers arrive at the port every day - Google tells me that
the largest ships can carry 19 thousand, so 100,000 per day??

OK they aren't all going to London, but what the heck!

tim

Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
 

Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
Graeme Wall wrote:
On 22/10/2019 11:35, tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...
From:

https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577



One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new
role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London
from
a container port using old passenger trains.


Have I understood this right?

someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port

transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage
individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s)

and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual
units onto little trucks

Actually into vans


What size of individual unit is this going to work for?


Pallets and wheeled cages, think updated BRUTES.

Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes



His were autonomous, weren’t they? Were they 2' gauge or were they
rubber-tyred? I don’t remember.


Rubber-tyred, able to self-unload from the convertible upper deck of his
3-3+3-3 trains, then drive themselves on public roads to the customers'
premises.

Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
 

"Recliner" wrote in message
...
Graeme Wall wrote:
On 22/10/2019 11:35, tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...
From:

https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577



One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new
role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London
from
a container port using old passenger trains.


Have I understood this right?

someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port

transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage
individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s)

and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual
units onto little trucks

Actually into vans


What size of individual unit is this going to work for?


Pallets and wheeled cages, think updated BRUTES.

Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes

His scheme involved autonomous, self-propelled containers being carried on
the convertible upper deck of his giant high speed double-decker trains.
They would drive themselves right to the cutomer's address.

you might jest, but I feel sure that Amazon are looking at doing that sort
of thing without the train involvement

tim

Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
 

"Recliner" wrote in message
...
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:31:41 on Tue, 22 Oct
2019, Recliner remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:58:34 on Tue, 22 Oct
2019, Recliner remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 08:49:40 on Tue, 22 Oct
2019, Recliner remarked:

Once the packages arrive at Liverpool Street, they will be
distributed to
their final destinations around the city by electric van or cargo
bikes.

Whatever happened to the very similar sounding scheme a couple of
years
ago to deliver packages to Euston in the small hours, and have them
distributed by electric vans?

That was a one-off concept demonstration, back in June 2014. It was
organised by a consultancy (Intermodality) with Colas Rail and TNT.
The
demo proved that the idea was workable, but my guess is that the
economics
weren't favourable at the time.

Economics is a very big component of "workable".

Not in most dictionaries.

You can make almost anything "work" if you throw enough money at it.

Now you're just arguing for argument's sake.

its' what he does

you knew that already

tim

Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
 

tim... wrote:


"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
...
On 22/10/2019 11:35, tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...
From:

https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577

One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new
role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London
from
a container port using old passenger trains.


Have I understood this right?

someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port

transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage
individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s)

and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual
units onto little trucks

Actually into vans


What size of individual unit is this going to work for?


Pallets

the problem with pallets is they presumably need to be fork lifted

and you aren't going to be able to load up a train carriage through a couple
of side doors (even if you widen them) using fork lifts, you'd need flat
wagons for that

and wheeled cages,

wheeled cages would work, but that means that the goods have to be correctly
loaded into wheeled cages at the origin and the cages transported 6000 miles
on the ship.

No, the parcel forwarder will open the containers and fill the cages,
presumably at a new depot near the port.

That's no different to now, except that the cages will be brought into
central London by electric train, not a fleet of diesel tracks and vans.


That seems a little bit too much organisation to me

think updated BRUTES.

I have no idea what BRUTES is

Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes

The only three trains a day is also a bit of a damp squib

It's a starting point. As the story says, they have ambitions for more.


how many container movements is that going to replace, 100 or 2?

and how many containers arrive at the port every day - Google tells me that
the largest ships can carry 19 thousand, so 100,000 per day??

OK they aren't all going to London, but what the heck!


Each train carriage will replace an HGV. So one train replaces eight HGVs
into central London, so 24/day.

Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
 

On 22/10/2019 12:40, tim... wrote:


"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
...
On 22/10/2019 11:35, tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...
From:

https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577


One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a
new role
as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central
London from
a container port using old passenger trains.


Have I understood this right?

someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port

transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage
individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s)

and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual
units onto little trucks

Actually into vans


What size of individual unit is this going to work for?


Pallets

the problem with pallets is they presumably need to be fork lifted

and you aren't going to be able to load up a train carriage through a
couple of side doors (even if you widen them) using fork lifts, you'd
need flat wagons for that

and wheeled cages,

wheeled cages would work, but that means that the goods have to be
correctly loaded into wheeled cages at the origin and the cages
transported 6000 miles on the ship.

No, the wheeled cages are loaded at the distribution depot. As someone
else explained container loads with goods for multiple destinations get
broken down at a distribution depot and made up into individual
cage-loads for each destination. Normally then taken by van from the
depot to the customer. The problem with the Orion concept is that it
involves an extra handling phase, depot - train - van. However with the
increased charges for operating diesel vehicles in major city centres it
could well be economically feasible. The alternative would be to utilise
electric lorries from the depot in the first place.


That seems a little bit too much organisation to me

think updated BRUTES.

I have no idea what BRUTES is

Are (or were, have any been preserved?): British Rail UTility Equipment,
wheeled cages that could be formed into "trains". A common sight at
major stations when BR was in the parcels business (Red Star).


Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes

The only three trains a day is also a bit of a damp squib

how many container movements is that going to replace, 100 or 2?

and how many containers arrive at the port every day - Google tells me
that the largest ships can carry 19 thousand, so 100,000 per day??

They don't all get delivered to one port. A better idea of throughput is
that each crane can shift up to 400 containers per shift, with three or
four cranes per vessel. Figure derived from a doco on Southampton
Container Port a few years back. 400 is the upper end of practicality,
350 per shift would be more normal.


OK they aren't all going to London, but what the heck!


Full containers would still continue by train and lorry to inland
container ports.


--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
 

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 10:02:18 -0000 (UTC), Recliner wrote:
Robin9 wrote:

Very interesting so thanks for that. I'm a little surprised that
there are spare train paths for additional trains along that
route. I would have guessed these trains were planned to run
during the night, but as the plan also envisages barges instead
of trains to Fulham, that seems unlikely. I recognise that Crossrail
will reduce the number of trains into Liverpool Street itself, but the
line between Forest Gate and Pudding Mill Lane will see no relief.


It's probably not too hard to find three off-peak paths a day. These are
non-stopping 100 mph trains, so they could use the fast or slow lines.

They seem to have found some:

Trains will leave London Gateway at 0029, 1208 and 1856,
returning from Liverpool Street at 0242, 1421 and 2100. They
will use Platforms 9 and 10.

https://www.railmagazine.com/news/ne...-trial-planned

Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
 

In message , at 10:47:00 on Tue, 22 Oct
2019, Recliner remarked:
In the 2014 demonstration run:

The train was formed of former First Great Western motor-rail car carriers,
which are suitable for carrying traffic in roll cages; these had previously
been used for another trial with Stobart in 2012, delivering perishable
food for six Sainsbury’s stores.

There appear to be a series of such trials. Presumably the Stobart one
didn't result in a production service?
--
Roland Perry