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Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
From:
https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577 One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from a container port using old passenger trains. The first service, which is due to start in May between London Gateway and London Liverpool Street, is intended to help hauliers avoid the charges from London’s Ultra-Low Emissions Zone (ULEZ), which was introduced this year, and the congestion zone. It would also take traffic off the heavily congested A13 that links the port near Thurrock in Essex to the capital. A specialist rail engineering company, Rail Operations Group, is working with DP World, the owner of London Gateway, to develop the low-emissions scheme to compete with road hauliers to move consumer goods and freight nearer to their final destination in London. Karl Watts, ROG chief executive, said the response to its plans from logistics companies and retailers had been “overwhelming,” although he declined to name any customers that had signed up for the service. Paul Orchard, ROG production director, said a series of different companies — including logistics companies and retailers — were looking at participating. Heavy goods vehicles that fall short of the standards required for the ULEZ have to pay a charge of £100 for each trip into the zone, which from April this year mirrors the congestion-charging zone in central London. From October 2021, Transport for London will extend ULEZ to cover the area within the north and south circular roads. Mr Orchard said road hauliers can face environmental charges of up to £200 on a return trip into the capital depending on timing and the type of vehicle used. “The margins are in some cases wafer-thin,” Mr Orchard said of road transport. “You start adding in an extra £200 . . . and that’s enough to make rail competitive.” ROG, which will offer the service under the “Orion” brand, plans to initially run three round-trip rail services per day outside of peak hours. It plans to use two converted, four-carriage trains that previously operated the Thameslink cross-London passenger route. The trains, due for delivery in May, are having their seats removed and being fitted with diesel engines. The engines will generate power when the train is not running on non-electrified lines, such as the freight sidings at London Gateway. ROG estimates that each carriage on its trains will carry around the same as a heavy truck. Once the packages arrive at Liverpool Street, they will be distributed to their final destinations around the city by electric van or cargo bikes. Liverpool Street is the UK’s third-busiest station with 67m passengers using it in the year to the end of March 2018. ROG is looking to expand the service and is talking to customers about other destinations, including possible overnight trains between London and Scotland and from London to Bristol. DP World confirmed it had held discussions with ROG about starting the service. It said it was also talking to the Port of London Authority on plans to use barges to move some goods to a site in Fulham, west London, by river. |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
In message , at 08:49:40 on Tue, 22 Oct
2019, Recliner remarked: Once the packages arrive at Liverpool Street, they will be distributed to their final destinations around the city by electric van or cargo bikes. Whatever happened to the very similar sounding scheme a couple of years ago to deliver packages to Euston in the small hours, and have them distributed by electric vans? -- Roland Perry |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
On 22/10/2019 09:49, Recliner wrote:
From: https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577 One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from a container port using old passenger trains. The first service, which is due to start in May between London Gateway and London Liverpool Street, is intended to help hauliers avoid the charges from London’s Ultra-Low Emissions Zone (ULEZ), which was introduced this year, and the congestion zone. It would also take traffic off the heavily congested A13 that links the port near Thurrock in Essex to the capital. A specialist rail engineering company, Rail Operations Group, is working with DP World, the owner of London Gateway, to develop the low-emissions scheme to compete with road hauliers to move consumer goods and freight nearer to their final destination in London. Karl Watts, ROG chief executive, said the response to its plans from logistics companies and retailers had been “overwhelming,” although he declined to name any customers that had signed up for the service. Paul Orchard, ROG production director, said a series of different companies — including logistics companies and retailers — were looking at participating. Heavy goods vehicles that fall short of the standards required for the ULEZ have to pay a charge of £100 for each trip into the zone, which from April this year mirrors the congestion-charging zone in central London. From October 2021, Transport for London will extend ULEZ to cover the area within the north and south circular roads. Mr Orchard said road hauliers can face environmental charges of up to £200 on a return trip into the capital depending on timing and the type of vehicle used. “The margins are in some cases wafer-thin,” Mr Orchard said of road transport. “You start adding in an extra £200 . . . and that’s enough to make rail competitive.” ROG, which will offer the service under the “Orion” brand, plans to initially run three round-trip rail services per day outside of peak hours. It plans to use two converted, four-carriage trains that previously operated the Thameslink cross-London passenger route. The trains, due for delivery in May, are having their seats removed and being fitted with diesel engines. The engines will generate power when the train is not running on non-electrified lines, such as the freight sidings at London Gateway. ROG estimates that each carriage on its trains will carry around the same as a heavy truck. Once the packages arrive at Liverpool Street, they will be distributed to their final destinations around the city by electric van or cargo bikes. Liverpool Street is the UK’s third-busiest station with 67m passengers using it in the year to the end of March 2018. ROG is looking to expand the service and is talking to customers about other destinations, including possible overnight trains between London and Scotland and from London to Bristol. DP World confirmed it had held discussions with ROG about starting the service. It said it was also talking to the Port of London Authority on plans to use barges to move some goods to a site in Fulham, west London, by river. Then ship them up the Grand Union to Birmingham! -- Graeme Wall This account not read. |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
On 22/10/2019 09:59, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 08:49:40 on Tue, 22 Oct 2019, Recliner remarked: Once the packages arrive at Liverpool Street, they will be distributed to their final destinations around the city by electric van or cargo bikes. Whatever happened to the very similar sounding scheme a couple of years ago to deliver packages to Euston in the small hours, and have them distributed by electric vans? Wasn't one problem the then lack of electric vans, now not so much of a problem? -- Graeme Wall This account not read. |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
In message , at 10:13:59 on Tue, 22 Oct
2019, Graeme Wall remarked: On 22/10/2019 09:59, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 08:49:40 on Tue, 22 Oct 2019, Recliner remarked: Once the packages arrive at Liverpool Street, they will be distributed to their final destinations around the city by electric van or cargo bikes. Whatever happened to the very similar sounding scheme a couple of years ago to deliver packages to Euston in the small hours, and have them distributed by electric vans? Wasn't one problem the then lack of electric vans, now not so much of a problem? I didn't ever see an explanation. But the way it was originally presented sounded very much like someone with a fleet of electric vans having a solution looking for a problem to solve - which the overnight inner-City parcel delivery from Euston was a candidate for. -- Roland Perry |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:13:59 on Tue, 22 Oct 2019, Graeme Wall remarked: On 22/10/2019 09:59, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 08:49:40 on Tue, 22 Oct 2019, Recliner remarked: Once the packages arrive at Liverpool Street, they will be distributed to their final destinations around the city by electric van or cargo bikes. Whatever happened to the very similar sounding scheme a couple of years ago to deliver packages to Euston in the small hours, and have them distributed by electric vans? Wasn't one problem the then lack of electric vans, now not so much of a problem? I didn't ever see an explanation. But the way it was originally presented sounded very much like someone with a fleet of electric vans having a solution looking for a problem to solve - which the overnight inner-City parcel delivery from Euston was a candidate for. I don't think anyone had a fleet of under-used electric vans back then. Now, they're readily available, and the economic benefit from using them in the ULEZ will be much greater. https://www.nissan.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles/e-nv200.html https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/sep/17/arrival-time-how-the-white-van-went-green https://www.parkers.co.uk/vans-pickups/news/2019/levc-lcv-london-taxi-based-hybrid-delivery-van-revealed/ |
Very interesting so thanks for that. I'm a little surprised that
there are spare train paths for additional trains along that route. I would have guessed these trains were planned to run during the night, but as the plan also envisages barges instead of trains to Fulham, that seems unlikely. I recognise that Crossrail will reduce the number of trains into Liverpool Street itself, but the line between Forest Gate and Pudding Mill Lane will see no relief. |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 08:49:40 on Tue, 22 Oct 2019, Recliner remarked: Once the packages arrive at Liverpool Street, they will be distributed to their final destinations around the city by electric van or cargo bikes. Whatever happened to the very similar sounding scheme a couple of years ago to deliver packages to Euston in the small hours, and have them distributed by electric vans? That was a one-off concept demonstration, back in June 2014. It was organised by a consultancy (Intermodality) with Colas Rail and TNT. The demo proved that the idea was workable, but my guess is that the economics weren't favourable at the time. Things have obviously changed six years later. |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
Robin9 wrote:
Very interesting so thanks for that. I'm a little surprised that there are spare train paths for additional trains along that route. I would have guessed these trains were planned to run during the night, but as the plan also envisages barges instead of trains to Fulham, that seems unlikely. I recognise that Crossrail will reduce the number of trains into Liverpool Street itself, but the line between Forest Gate and Pudding Mill Lane will see no relief. It's probably not too hard to find three off-peak paths a day. These are non-stopping 100 mph trains, so they could use the fast or slow lines. |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
In message , at 09:58:34 on Tue, 22 Oct
2019, Recliner remarked: Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 08:49:40 on Tue, 22 Oct 2019, Recliner remarked: Once the packages arrive at Liverpool Street, they will be distributed to their final destinations around the city by electric van or cargo bikes. Whatever happened to the very similar sounding scheme a couple of years ago to deliver packages to Euston in the small hours, and have them distributed by electric vans? That was a one-off concept demonstration, back in June 2014. It was organised by a consultancy (Intermodality) with Colas Rail and TNT. The demo proved that the idea was workable, but my guess is that the economics weren't favourable at the time. Economics is a very big component of "workable". Things have obviously changed six years later. Not necessarily. This could be just another concept demonstration. -- Roland Perry |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:58:34 on Tue, 22 Oct 2019, Recliner remarked: Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 08:49:40 on Tue, 22 Oct 2019, Recliner remarked: Once the packages arrive at Liverpool Street, they will be distributed to their final destinations around the city by electric van or cargo bikes. Whatever happened to the very similar sounding scheme a couple of years ago to deliver packages to Euston in the small hours, and have them distributed by electric vans? That was a one-off concept demonstration, back in June 2014. It was organised by a consultancy (Intermodality) with Colas Rail and TNT. The demo proved that the idea was workable, but my guess is that the economics weren't favourable at the time. Economics is a very big component of "workable". Not in most dictionaries. Things have obviously changed six years later. Not necessarily. This could be just another concept demonstration. No it's not. The trains were ordered in January, and the service starts next May. |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
"Recliner" wrote in message ... From: https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577 One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from a container port using old passenger trains. Have I understood this right? someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s) and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual units onto little trucks What size of individual unit is this going to work for? tim |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
tim... wrote:
"Recliner" wrote in message ... From: https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577 One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from a container port using old passenger trains. Have I understood this right? someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s) and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual units onto little trucks What size of individual unit is this going to work for? Probably some sort of roll-on cages or containers that can get through the train doors and on to electric vans. The cages may be towed as a train along the platforms. In the 2014 demonstration run: The train was formed of former First Great Western motor-rail car carriers, which are suitable for carrying traffic in roll cages; these had previously been used for another trial with Stobart in 2012, delivering perishable food for six Sainsbury’s stores. For the latest trial, TNT delivered the roll cages to Colas Rail's Rugby depot, where the transfer from road to rail took 20 min. After a 132 km trip, the train arrived at Euston at 02.38, and the goods were transhipped into a fleet of TNT electric and low-emission road vehicles in less than an hour. https://www.railwaygazette.com/freight/colas-rail-and-tnt-test-express-rail-logistics/39578.article |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
On 22/10/2019 10:42, Robin9 wrote:
Very interesting so thanks for that. I'm a little surprised that there are spare train paths for additional trains along that route. I would have guessed these trains were planned to run during the night, but as the plan also envisages barges instead of trains to Fulham, that seems unlikely. I recognise that Crossrail will reduce the number of trains into Liverpool Street itself, but the line between Forest Gate and Pudding Mill Lane will see no relief. I wonder if the barges to Fulham idea is predicated on utilising the empty return workings of the Cory (now Biffa) barges that bring rubbish down river for incineration -- Graeme Wall This account not read. |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
In message , at 10:31:41 on Tue, 22 Oct
2019, Recliner remarked: Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 09:58:34 on Tue, 22 Oct 2019, Recliner remarked: Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 08:49:40 on Tue, 22 Oct 2019, Recliner remarked: Once the packages arrive at Liverpool Street, they will be distributed to their final destinations around the city by electric van or cargo bikes. Whatever happened to the very similar sounding scheme a couple of years ago to deliver packages to Euston in the small hours, and have them distributed by electric vans? That was a one-off concept demonstration, back in June 2014. It was organised by a consultancy (Intermodality) with Colas Rail and TNT. The demo proved that the idea was workable, but my guess is that the economics weren't favourable at the time. Economics is a very big component of "workable". Not in most dictionaries. You can make almost anything "work" if you throw enough money at it. Things have obviously changed six years later. Not necessarily. This could be just another concept demonstration. No it's not. The trains were ordered in January, and the service starts next May. Too far in the future to predict it won't get quietly dropped. -- Roland Perry |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
On 22/10/2019 11:35, tim... wrote:
"Recliner" wrote in message ... From: https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577 One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from a container port using old passenger trains. Have I understood this right? someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s) and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual units onto little trucks Actually into vans What size of individual unit is this going to work for? Pallets and wheeled cages, think updated BRUTES. Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes -- Graeme Wall This account not read. |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
tim... wrote:
"Recliner" wrote in message ... From: https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577 One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from a container port using old passenger trains. Have I understood this right? someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s) and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual units onto little trucks What size of individual unit is this going to work for? tim Thousands of packages but if you want a guide to size think what the different sizes of packages delivered by amazon warehouse or carried by the various couriers such as DPD or DHL . You will often see their interhub lorries on the motorways especially at night moving such goods , the train to London can be compared with them. 1000’s of small business import items made for them by the box load from say China all the time but not in the volumes to fill a whole container, hence the container is shared and unstuffed at the arrival Port or an Inland container terminal by firms who specialise in it . All that is different here is that instead of passing onwards by lorry it is going to be fowarded by train. GH |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
Graeme Wall wrote:
On 22/10/2019 11:35, tim... wrote: "Recliner" wrote in message ... From: https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577 One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from a container port using old passenger trains. Have I understood this right? someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s) and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual units onto little trucks Actually into vans What size of individual unit is this going to work for? Pallets and wheeled cages, think updated BRUTES. Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes His scheme involved autonomous, self-propelled containers being carried on the convertible upper deck of his giant high speed double-decker trains. They would drive themselves right to the cutomer's address. |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:31:41 on Tue, 22 Oct 2019, Recliner remarked: Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 09:58:34 on Tue, 22 Oct 2019, Recliner remarked: Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 08:49:40 on Tue, 22 Oct 2019, Recliner remarked: Once the packages arrive at Liverpool Street, they will be distributed to their final destinations around the city by electric van or cargo bikes. Whatever happened to the very similar sounding scheme a couple of years ago to deliver packages to Euston in the small hours, and have them distributed by electric vans? That was a one-off concept demonstration, back in June 2014. It was organised by a consultancy (Intermodality) with Colas Rail and TNT. The demo proved that the idea was workable, but my guess is that the economics weren't favourable at the time. Economics is a very big component of "workable". Not in most dictionaries. You can make almost anything "work" if you throw enough money at it. Now you're just arguing for argument's sake. Things have obviously changed six years later. Not necessarily. This could be just another concept demonstration. No it's not. The trains were ordered in January, and the service starts next May. Too far in the future to predict it won't get quietly dropped. Hardly. The train order was placed ten months ago, not 'far in the future'. My main reservation is that the work is being done by Wabtec (Brush) Loughborough, which seems to be late with everything. |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
tim... wrote:
"Recliner" wrote in message ... From: https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577 One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from a container port using old passenger trains. Have I understood this right? someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s) and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual units onto little trucks What size of individual unit is this going to work for? Presumably pallets, or the kind of wheeled cage often used to transport deliveries from road vehicles of whatever size, into town centre shops. Or perhaps Bellsian autonomous 2' gauge vehicles. Anna Noyd-Dryver |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
Graeme Wall wrote:
On 22/10/2019 11:35, tim... wrote: "Recliner" wrote in message ... From: https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577 One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from a container port using old passenger trains. Have I understood this right? someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s) and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual units onto little trucks Actually into vans What size of individual unit is this going to work for? Pallets and wheeled cages, think updated BRUTES. Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes His were autonomous, weren’t they? Were they 2' gauge or were they rubber-tyred? I don’t remember. Anna Noyd-Dryver |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
On 22/10/2019 12:11, Recliner wrote:
Graeme Wall wrote: On 22/10/2019 11:35, tim... wrote: "Recliner" wrote in message ... From: https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577 One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from a container port using old passenger trains. Have I understood this right? someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s) and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual units onto little trucks Actually into vans What size of individual unit is this going to work for? Pallets and wheeled cages, think updated BRUTES. Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes His scheme involved autonomous, self-propelled containers being carried on the convertible upper deck of his giant high speed double-decker trains. They would drive themselves right to the cutomer's address. Sounds like just the project for Elon. -- Graeme Wall This account not read. |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
"Graeme Wall" wrote in message ... On 22/10/2019 11:35, tim... wrote: "Recliner" wrote in message ... From: https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577 One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from a container port using old passenger trains. Have I understood this right? someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s) and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual units onto little trucks Actually into vans What size of individual unit is this going to work for? Pallets the problem with pallets is they presumably need to be fork lifted and you aren't going to be able to load up a train carriage through a couple of side doors (even if you widen them) using fork lifts, you'd need flat wagons for that and wheeled cages, wheeled cages would work, but that means that the goods have to be correctly loaded into wheeled cages at the origin and the cages transported 6000 miles on the ship. That seems a little bit too much organisation to me think updated BRUTES. I have no idea what BRUTES is Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes The only three trains a day is also a bit of a damp squib how many container movements is that going to replace, 100 or 2? and how many containers arrive at the port every day - Google tells me that the largest ships can carry 19 thousand, so 100,000 per day?? OK they aren't all going to London, but what the heck! tim |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
Graeme Wall wrote: On 22/10/2019 11:35, tim... wrote: "Recliner" wrote in message ... From: https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577 One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from a container port using old passenger trains. Have I understood this right? someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s) and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual units onto little trucks Actually into vans What size of individual unit is this going to work for? Pallets and wheeled cages, think updated BRUTES. Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes His were autonomous, weren’t they? Were they 2' gauge or were they rubber-tyred? I don’t remember. Rubber-tyred, able to self-unload from the convertible upper deck of his 3-3+3-3 trains, then drive themselves on public roads to the customers' premises. |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
"Recliner" wrote in message ... Graeme Wall wrote: On 22/10/2019 11:35, tim... wrote: "Recliner" wrote in message ... From: https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577 One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from a container port using old passenger trains. Have I understood this right? someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s) and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual units onto little trucks Actually into vans What size of individual unit is this going to work for? Pallets and wheeled cages, think updated BRUTES. Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes His scheme involved autonomous, self-propelled containers being carried on the convertible upper deck of his giant high speed double-decker trains. They would drive themselves right to the cutomer's address. you might jest, but I feel sure that Amazon are looking at doing that sort of thing without the train involvement tim |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
"Recliner" wrote in message ... Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 10:31:41 on Tue, 22 Oct 2019, Recliner remarked: Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 09:58:34 on Tue, 22 Oct 2019, Recliner remarked: Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 08:49:40 on Tue, 22 Oct 2019, Recliner remarked: Once the packages arrive at Liverpool Street, they will be distributed to their final destinations around the city by electric van or cargo bikes. Whatever happened to the very similar sounding scheme a couple of years ago to deliver packages to Euston in the small hours, and have them distributed by electric vans? That was a one-off concept demonstration, back in June 2014. It was organised by a consultancy (Intermodality) with Colas Rail and TNT. The demo proved that the idea was workable, but my guess is that the economics weren't favourable at the time. Economics is a very big component of "workable". Not in most dictionaries. You can make almost anything "work" if you throw enough money at it. Now you're just arguing for argument's sake. its' what he does you knew that already tim |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
tim... wrote:
"Graeme Wall" wrote in message ... On 22/10/2019 11:35, tim... wrote: "Recliner" wrote in message ... From: https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577 One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from a container port using old passenger trains. Have I understood this right? someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s) and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual units onto little trucks Actually into vans What size of individual unit is this going to work for? Pallets the problem with pallets is they presumably need to be fork lifted and you aren't going to be able to load up a train carriage through a couple of side doors (even if you widen them) using fork lifts, you'd need flat wagons for that and wheeled cages, wheeled cages would work, but that means that the goods have to be correctly loaded into wheeled cages at the origin and the cages transported 6000 miles on the ship. No, the parcel forwarder will open the containers and fill the cages, presumably at a new depot near the port. That's no different to now, except that the cages will be brought into central London by electric train, not a fleet of diesel tracks and vans. That seems a little bit too much organisation to me think updated BRUTES. I have no idea what BRUTES is Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes The only three trains a day is also a bit of a damp squib It's a starting point. As the story says, they have ambitions for more. how many container movements is that going to replace, 100 or 2? and how many containers arrive at the port every day - Google tells me that the largest ships can carry 19 thousand, so 100,000 per day?? OK they aren't all going to London, but what the heck! Each train carriage will replace an HGV. So one train replaces eight HGVs into central London, so 24/day. |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
On 22/10/2019 12:40, tim... wrote:
"Graeme Wall" wrote in message ... On 22/10/2019 11:35, tim... wrote: "Recliner" wrote in message ... From: https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577 One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from a container port using old passenger trains. Have I understood this right? someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s) and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual units onto little trucks Actually into vans What size of individual unit is this going to work for? Pallets the problem with pallets is they presumably need to be fork lifted and you aren't going to be able to load up a train carriage through a couple of side doors (even if you widen them) using fork lifts, you'd need flat wagons for that and wheeled cages, wheeled cages would work, but that means that the goods have to be correctly loaded into wheeled cages at the origin and the cages transported 6000 miles on the ship. No, the wheeled cages are loaded at the distribution depot. As someone else explained container loads with goods for multiple destinations get broken down at a distribution depot and made up into individual cage-loads for each destination. Normally then taken by van from the depot to the customer. The problem with the Orion concept is that it involves an extra handling phase, depot - train - van. However with the increased charges for operating diesel vehicles in major city centres it could well be economically feasible. The alternative would be to utilise electric lorries from the depot in the first place. That seems a little bit too much organisation to me think updated BRUTES. I have no idea what BRUTES is Are (or were, have any been preserved?): British Rail UTility Equipment, wheeled cages that could be formed into "trains". A common sight at major stations when BR was in the parcels business (Red Star). Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes The only three trains a day is also a bit of a damp squib how many container movements is that going to replace, 100 or 2? and how many containers arrive at the port every day - Google tells me that the largest ships can carry 19 thousand, so 100,000 per day?? They don't all get delivered to one port. A better idea of throughput is that each crane can shift up to 400 containers per shift, with three or four cranes per vessel. Figure derived from a doco on Southampton Container Port a few years back. 400 is the upper end of practicality, 350 per shift would be more normal. OK they aren't all going to London, but what the heck! Full containers would still continue by train and lorry to inland container ports. -- Graeme Wall This account not read. |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 10:02:18 -0000 (UTC), Recliner wrote:
Robin9 wrote: Very interesting so thanks for that. I'm a little surprised that there are spare train paths for additional trains along that route. I would have guessed these trains were planned to run during the night, but as the plan also envisages barges instead of trains to Fulham, that seems unlikely. I recognise that Crossrail will reduce the number of trains into Liverpool Street itself, but the line between Forest Gate and Pudding Mill Lane will see no relief. It's probably not too hard to find three off-peak paths a day. These are non-stopping 100 mph trains, so they could use the fast or slow lines. They seem to have found some: Trains will leave London Gateway at 0029, 1208 and 1856, returning from Liverpool Street at 0242, 1421 and 2100. They will use Platforms 9 and 10. https://www.railmagazine.com/news/ne...-trial-planned |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
In message , at 10:47:00 on Tue, 22 Oct
2019, Recliner remarked: In the 2014 demonstration run: The train was formed of former First Great Western motor-rail car carriers, which are suitable for carrying traffic in roll cages; these had previously been used for another trial with Stobart in 2012, delivering perishable food for six Sainsbury’s stores. There appear to be a series of such trials. Presumably the Stobart one didn't result in a production service? -- Roland Perry |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
tim... wrote:
"Graeme Wall" wrote in message ... On 22/10/2019 11:35, tim... wrote: "Recliner" wrote in message ... From: https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577 One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from a container port using old passenger trains. Have I understood this right? someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s) and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual units onto little trucks Actually into vans What size of individual unit is this going to work for? Pallets the problem with pallets is they presumably need to be fork lifted and you aren't going to be able to load up a train carriage through a couple of side doors (even if you widen them) using fork lifts, you'd need flat wagons for that You’ve never seen pallets being wheeled around supermarkets etc on one of these? https://www.northerntool.com/images/product/2000x2000/558/55833_2000x2000.jpg and wheeled cages, wheeled cages would work, but that means that the goods have to be correctly loaded into wheeled cages at the origin and the cages transported 6000 miles on the ship. That seems a little bit too much organisation to me think updated BRUTES. I have no idea what BRUTES is https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Universal_Trolley_Equipment Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes The only three trains a day is also a bit of a damp squib how many container movements is that going to replace, 100 or 2? Going from the OP, I’d guess 12 per day, or 24 if they’re running both units together. And if it’s successful, scope for more. and how many containers arrive at the port every day - Google tells me that the largest ships can carry 19 thousand, so 100,000 per day?? OK they aren't all going to London, but what the heck! Plenty get transported around the country by train; plenty more won’t be carrying stuff which needs to go to city centres. Anna Noyd-Dryver |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
On 22/10/2019 12:53, Graeme Wall wrote:
On 22/10/2019 12:40, tim... wrote: "Graeme Wall" wrote in message ... On 22/10/2019 11:35, tim... wrote: "Recliner" wrote in message ... From: https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577 One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from a container port using old passenger trains. Have I understood this right? someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s) and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual units onto little trucks Actually into vans What size of individual unit is this going to work for? Pallets the problem with pallets is they presumably need to be fork lifted and you aren't going to be able to load up a train carriage through a couple of side doors (even if you widen them) using fork lifts, you'd need flat wagons for that and wheeled cages, wheeled cages would work, but that means that the goods have to be correctly loaded into wheeled cages at the origin and the cages transported 6000 miles on the ship. No, the wheeled cages are loaded at the distribution depot. As someone else explained container loads with goods for multiple destinations get broken down at a distribution depot and made up into individual cage-loads for each destination. Normally then taken by van from the depot to the customer. The problem with the Orion concept is that it involves an extra handling phase, depot - train - van. However with the increased charges for operating diesel vehicles in major city centres it could well be economically feasible. The alternative would be to utilise electric lorries from the depot in the first place. That seems a little bit too much organisation to me think updated BRUTES. I have no idea what BRUTES is Are (or were, have any been preserved?): British Rail UTility Equipment, wheeled cages that could be formed into "trains". A common sight at major stations when BR was in the parcels business (Red Star). There were also placed onto trains, sometimes into the guards' van or more commonly onto dedicated trains. Ramps were provided but this could be achieved without. There are still one or two modified BUTES around but they're now used for other purposes. Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes The only three trains a day is also a bit of a damp squib how many container movements is that going to replace, 100 or 2? and how many containers arrive at the port every day - Google tells me that the largest ships can carry 19 thousand, so 100,000 per day?? They don't all get delivered to one port. A better idea of throughput is that each crane can shift up to 400 containers per shift, with three or four cranes per vessel. Figure derived from a doco on Southampton Container Port a few years back. 400 is the upper end of practicality, 350 per shift would be more normal. OK they aren't all going to London, but what the heck! Full containers would still continue by train and lorry to inland container ports. |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
On 22/10/2019 13:26, David Walters wrote:
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 10:02:18 -0000 (UTC), Recliner wrote: Robin9 wrote: Very interesting so thanks for that. I'm a little surprised that there are spare train paths for additional trains along that route. I would have guessed these trains were planned to run during the night, but as the plan also envisages barges instead of trains to Fulham, that seems unlikely. I recognise that Crossrail will reduce the number of trains into Liverpool Street itself, but the line between Forest Gate and Pudding Mill Lane will see no relief. It's probably not too hard to find three off-peak paths a day. These are non-stopping 100 mph trains, so they could use the fast or slow lines. They seem to have found some: Trains will leave London Gateway at 0029, 1208 and 1856, returning from Liverpool Street at 0242, 1421 and 2100. They will use Platforms 9 and 10. https://www.railmagazine.com/news/ne...-trial-planned How are they going to tansfer between train and road vehicle? I didn't think there was any access for road vehicles to the platforms at Liverpool Street railway station these days. |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
In message , at 11:13:05 on Tue, 22 Oct
2019, Recliner remarked: Economics is a very big component of "workable". Not in most dictionaries. You can make almost anything "work" if you throw enough money at it. Now you're just arguing for argument's sake. Pointing out basic economics doesn't meet that definition. Things have obviously changed six years later. Not necessarily. This could be just another concept demonstration. No it's not. The trains were ordered in January, and the service starts next May. Too far in the future to predict it won't get quietly dropped. Hardly. The train order was placed ten months ago, not 'far in the future'. Next May is too far in the future for us to predict today that it will actually happen. My main reservation is that the work is being done by Wabtec (Brush) Loughborough, which seems to be late with everything. I've recently been reading about 2014 ambitions for East-West rail (for a discussion in another place). The one consistency is that pretty much all the prerequisites upon which that plan was based have failed to materialise either on time (eg Ely North junction by 2016, or other much more significant projects like Crossrail) or at all (eg MML electrification). Rail industry vapourware is rampant. -- Roland Perry |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
In message , at 12:40:02 on Tue, 22 Oct
2019, tim... remarked: think updated BRUTES. I have no idea what BRUTES is Are. -- Roland Perry |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
wrote:
On 22/10/2019 12:53, Graeme Wall wrote: On 22/10/2019 12:40, tim... wrote: "Graeme Wall" wrote in message ... On 22/10/2019 11:35, tim... wrote: "Recliner" wrote in message ... From: https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577 One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from a container port using old passenger trains. Have I understood this right? someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s) and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual units onto little trucks Actually into vans What size of individual unit is this going to work for? Pallets the problem with pallets is they presumably need to be fork lifted and you aren't going to be able to load up a train carriage through a couple of side doors (even if you widen them) using fork lifts, you'd need flat wagons for that and wheeled cages, wheeled cages would work, but that means that the goods have to be correctly loaded into wheeled cages at the origin and the cages transported 6000 miles on the ship. No, the wheeled cages are loaded at the distribution depot. As someone else explained container loads with goods for multiple destinations get broken down at a distribution depot and made up into individual cage-loads for each destination. Normally then taken by van from the depot to the customer. The problem with the Orion concept is that it involves an extra handling phase, depot - train - van. However with the increased charges for operating diesel vehicles in major city centres it could well be economically feasible. The alternative would be to utilise electric lorries from the depot in the first place. That seems a little bit too much organisation to me think updated BRUTES. I have no idea what BRUTES is Are (or were, have any been preserved?): British Rail UTility Equipment, wheeled cages that could be formed into "trains". A common sight at major stations when BR was in the parcels business (Red Star). There were also placed onto trains, sometimes into the guards' van or more commonly onto dedicated trains. Ramps were provided but this could be achieved without. There are still one or two modified BUTES around but they're now used for other purposes. Different cages and different trains but the same concept - I remember watching a postal train call at Cardiff in the last few months before the service was curtailed - the speed and agility with which the staff loaded the 'York'(?) trolleys onto the train was very impressive, particularly considering they had to use a ramp with a 90° angle (and a turntable!) due to the limited platform width. Anna Noyd-Dryver |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
wrote:
On 22/10/2019 13:26, David Walters wrote: On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 10:02:18 -0000 (UTC), Recliner wrote: Robin9 wrote: Very interesting so thanks for that. I'm a little surprised that there are spare train paths for additional trains along that route. I would have guessed these trains were planned to run during the night, but as the plan also envisages barges instead of trains to Fulham, that seems unlikely. I recognise that Crossrail will reduce the number of trains into Liverpool Street itself, but the line between Forest Gate and Pudding Mill Lane will see no relief. It's probably not too hard to find three off-peak paths a day. These are non-stopping 100 mph trains, so they could use the fast or slow lines. They seem to have found some: Trains will leave London Gateway at 0029, 1208 and 1856, returning from Liverpool Street at 0242, 1421 and 2100. They will use Platforms 9 and 10. https://www.railmagazine.com/news/ne...-trial-planned How are they going to tansfer between train and road vehicle? I didn't think there was any access for road vehicles to the platforms at Liverpool Street railway station these days. The taxi rank used to be between platforms 10 and 11, at platform level. ISTR seeing service vehicles in that area on a recent journey, so presumably there’s still access. Anna Noyd-Dryver |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
tim... wrote:
"Recliner" wrote in message ... Graeme Wall wrote: On 22/10/2019 11:35, tim... wrote: "Recliner" wrote in message ... From: https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577 One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from a container port using old passenger trains. Have I understood this right? someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s) and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual units onto little trucks Actually into vans What size of individual unit is this going to work for? Pallets and wheeled cages, think updated BRUTES. Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes His scheme involved autonomous, self-propelled containers being carried on the convertible upper deck of his giant high speed double-decker trains. They would drive themselves right to the cutomer's address. you might jest, but I feel sure that Amazon are looking at doing that sort of thing without the train involvement tim The Ocado depot in Andover Hampshire burnt down early this possibly because the fire precautions were not thought through enough, that withstanding the publicity from the incident did show how far the technology of autonomous sorting equipment has become and similar equipment is used elsewhere. video of the Ocado system here, it would not be inconceivable to think that some of the units could be programmed to load themselves onto a truck or train get taken to distribution point and once self driving vehicle technology has developed complete the last leg though I imagine at first it would be other warehouses. Ocado before it burnt. https://youtu.be/4DKrcpa8Z_E GH |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
"Graeme Wall" wrote in message ... On 22/10/2019 12:40, tim... wrote: "Graeme Wall" wrote in message ... On 22/10/2019 11:35, tim... wrote: "Recliner" wrote in message ... From: https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577 One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from a container port using old passenger trains. Have I understood this right? someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s) and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual units onto little trucks Actually into vans What size of individual unit is this going to work for? Pallets the problem with pallets is they presumably need to be fork lifted and you aren't going to be able to load up a train carriage through a couple of side doors (even if you widen them) using fork lifts, you'd need flat wagons for that and wheeled cages, wheeled cages would work, but that means that the goods have to be correctly loaded into wheeled cages at the origin and the cages transported 6000 miles on the ship. No, the wheeled cages are loaded at the distribution depot. As someone else explained container loads with goods for multiple destinations get broken down at a distribution depot and made up into individual cage-loads for each destination. Normally then taken by van from the depot to the customer. The problem with the Orion concept is that it involves an extra handling phase, depot - train - van. I still can't get my head around, that it's not two extra steps However with the increased charges for operating diesel vehicles in major city centres it could well be economically feasible. Yes I can see that. The question is "will it?" (rhetorical.) The alternative would be to utilise electric lorries from the depot in the first place. That seems a little bit too much organisation to me think updated BRUTES. I have no idea what BRUTES is Are (or were, have any been preserved?): British Rail UTility Equipment, wheeled cages that could be formed into "trains". A common sight at major stations when BR was in the parcels business (Red Star). Oh I know what you mean now, Never knew the name though. Somehow it reminds me of one of the late Michael Bell's schemes The only three trains a day is also a bit of a damp squib how many container movements is that going to replace, 100 or 2? and how many containers arrive at the port every day - Google tells me that the largest ships can carry 19 thousand, so 100,000 per day?? They don't all get delivered to one port. Oh OK. tim |
Orion 769 Flex cargo services into Liverpool St
wrote in message ... On 22/10/2019 12:53, Graeme Wall wrote: On 22/10/2019 12:40, tim... wrote: "Graeme Wall" wrote in message ... On 22/10/2019 11:35, tim... wrote: "Recliner" wrote in message ... From: https://www.ft.com/content/c2b51fd2-f19f-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195?segmentId=080b04f5-af92-ae6f-0513-095d44fb3577 One of the Britain’s busiest railway stations is set to take on a new role as a freight hub as part of a plan to shuttle goods to central London from a container port using old passenger trains. Have I understood this right? someone is going to take a container of stuff from the port transfer the contents of it onto a converted passenger carriage individual "units" at a time, presumably through side door(s) and then at the other end empty the passenger carriage by individual units onto little trucks Actually into vans What size of individual unit is this going to work for? Pallets the problem with pallets is they presumably need to be fork lifted and you aren't going to be able to load up a train carriage through a couple of side doors (even if you widen them) using fork lifts, you'd need flat wagons for that and wheeled cages, wheeled cages would work, but that means that the goods have to be correctly loaded into wheeled cages at the origin and the cages transported 6000 miles on the ship. No, the wheeled cages are loaded at the distribution depot. As someone else explained container loads with goods for multiple destinations get broken down at a distribution depot and made up into individual cage-loads for each destination. Normally then taken by van from the depot to the customer. The problem with the Orion concept is that it involves an extra handling phase, depot - train - van. However with the increased charges for operating diesel vehicles in major city centres it could well be economically feasible. The alternative would be to utilise electric lorries from the depot in the first place. That seems a little bit too much organisation to me think updated BRUTES. I have no idea what BRUTES is Are (or were, have any been preserved?): British Rail UTility Equipment, wheeled cages that could be formed into "trains". A common sight at major stations when BR was in the parcels business (Red Star). There were also placed onto trains, sometimes into the guards' van or more commonly onto dedicated trains. Ramps were provided but this could be achieved without. There are still one or two modified BUTES around but they're now used for other purposes. flower displays :-) tim |
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