Jobsworth driver
 

On Sun, 24 Nov 2019 11:55:09 -0000 (UTC)
Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
wrote:
The test for a commercial vehicle is a LOT harder than a car. You don't get
away with many mistakes and the test enviroment is a lot more varied. Kev and

Trace might scrape through driving their corsa a bit erratically on a car
test
but they'd be failed in minutes on an HGV or bus test.



And yet with the same breath you dismiss train driving as 'pulling levers'.
Surely you realise that the train driving assessment is just as strict, if
not more so?

I can imagine being a steam locomotive driver was a bugger of a job. Physically
hard and you had to get the feel of the engine under different loads. I suspect
driving a modern freight loco is still tricky (although not physically) as you
could be just driving the loco itself or have 2000 tons behing you.

Driving a computer controlled EMU though that won't allow you to play silly
buggers with the throttle and brake, doesn't change much in behaviour from
empty to full load, doesn't have to be steered and when it goes wrong needs
a technician with a laptop to turn up anyway? Don't tell me thats particularly
hard.

Seems to me the only hard part of being a modern EMU driver is the shift work
aspect of the job, other than that - piece of ****.

Jobsworth driver
 

On 24 Nov 2019 13:51:40 GMT
Marland wrote:
Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
wrote:
On Sat, 23 Nov 2019 23:22:23 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote:
NY wrote:
"Charles Ellson" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 23 Nov 2019 12:34:10 +0000 (UTC), wrote:
It took me 4 days to learn to drive a bus - test on the 5th. And that
involves
having to actually steer the vehicle through narrow streets and around
parked
vehicles, not something train drivers have to worry about. So I reckon
2
or 3
days to learn to push a lever backwards and forwards and get a feel for
braking under different loads (no different to an HGV) and a few more
weeks for
for learning signals, basic trouble shooting and some routes. A month
tops.

What sort of vehicles had you driven before then? Were you already used
to
driving anything larger than a standard Ford Cortina size of car?


But that is nowhere near as extreme as driving a bus which is wider still

and a lot longer. If you only had prior experience of driving a car, then

I'm impressed that you passed a bus test on day 5.

Neil also has an HGV licence — maybe he got that before driving the bus?


I did.



So you already had (a) experience of driving road vehicles (b) experience
of driving large road vehicles. 5 days to learn that the front wheels are
further back and that you have to look out for passengers?



Boltar may be a natural at vehicle handling which not all people are so the
physical driving was ticked off on the first day, the rest were spent
learning what the ringing sound was as the bus approached a stop.

You have to do bloody role play on the test - examiner pretends hes a
passenger - ding ding etc - pull up gently to at the correct stopping point
open/close doors, check Mrs Pensioner hasn't falled over in the aisle etc.
And miss the stopping point and that IIRC is a serious fault which = fail.

With a lorry test , as long as you can keep it on the road, don't clip the
scenery and don't hit anyone you'll probably pass though with the Class 1
test you have to reverse with a trailer which isn't easy. God knows how the
aussie drivers reverse a double or triple.

Jobsworth driver
 

On Sun, 24 Nov 2019 19:38:33 +0000
Charles Ellson wrote:
On Sun, 24 Nov 2019 11:55:10 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
wrote:

wrote:
On Sat, 23 Nov 2019 23:13:31 -0000
"NY" wrote:
"Charles Ellson" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 23 Nov 2019 12:34:10 +0000 (UTC), wrote:
It took me 4 days to learn to drive a bus - test on the 5th. And that
involves
having to actually steer the vehicle through narrow streets and around
parked
vehicles, not something train drivers have to worry about. So I reckon 2

or 3
days to learn to push a lever backwards and forwards and get a feel for
braking under different loads (no different to an HGV) and a few more
weeks for
for learning signals, basic trouble shooting and some routes. A month
tops.

What sort of vehicles had you driven before then? Were you already used to

driving anything larger than a standard Ford Cortina size of car?

Articulated HGV so I had a bit of a prior advantage.

Driving an ordinary car felt very weird afterwards - the steering wheel
felt
so high up, when I'd got used to the elbows-resting-on-my-knees position
for
steering the van.

Driving a lorry is like driving a large car for me. Driving a bus is wierd
however because you're about a meter in front of the steering wheels so you
have to leave turning movements later than feels normal.


Unless you're driving a half-cab or an Optare Solo :)

Bin lorries and some other specialist vehicles share the 'cab well forward'
position of a bus.

Often built by the same company - Dennis. Another of their design
oddities is cabs very close to the ground, usually on airport vehicles
but also see on some refuse vehicles.

In London they're becoming more common because of a rule Mr Mayor brought in
about visibility of cyclists in the cab. Which is fair enough I suppose.

Jobsworth driver
 

On Sun, 24 Nov 2019 23:33:10 +0000
Charles Ellson wrote:
On Sun, 24 Nov 2019 21:00:07 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
wrote:
Other than airport vehicles which have to fit under things, it's all for
the same reason - quick and easy access of people (be they staff or
passengers) into the vehicle.

Many airport vehicles tend to have equipment/structures which overhang
the cab. The great majority of refuse vehicles have conventional
height cabs including ones built by Dennis. AFAIR entry/egress is not
necessarily easier as the design causes the wheel arch to intrude into
the rear of the cab doorway and thus reduces the available width at
the bottom in what in photographs seems to be the shorter of two cab
lengths. Photographs also show that the rear door pillar is often
forward of the rear of the driver's seat thus preventing exiting by
simply turning through 90deg and stepping out.

Unlike in the railway industry - when road rules are made the driver is the
last person considered. In the USA truck drivers get nice large cabs and a long
bonnet thats a useful crumple zone in a crash. In the EU with its dumb
overall length rules the tractor unit and hence cab is made as short as
possible so the trailer can be as long as possible in the rules. So all there
is between you and whatever you hit is the windscreen and dashboard. Doesn't
matter if its a car, it does if its another lorry or a tree.

Jobsworth driver
 

On 25/11/2019 11:36, wrote:
On Sun, 24 Nov 2019 10:58:07 +0000
wrote:
On 24/11/2019 10:50, wrote:
The test for a commercial vehicle is a LOT harder than a car. You don't get
away with many mistakes and the test enviroment is a lot more varied. Kev and

Trace might scrape through driving their corsa a bit erratically on a car
test
but they'd be failed in minutes on an HGV or bus test.

My cousin did his HGV test using all that was available... A tank
transported loaded with a tank.

Apparently he mounted the kerb several times and bent a few bollards but
still passed.

I'm guessing that was a while back, he wouldn't get away with that today.

Only about 10 years ago.

It depends exactly where and why that happened!

Jobsworth driver
 

wrote:
On 25/11/2019 11:36, wrote:
On Sun, 24 Nov 2019 10:58:07 +0000
wrote:
On 24/11/2019 10:50, wrote:
The test for a commercial vehicle is a LOT harder than a car. You don't get
away with many mistakes and the test enviroment is a lot more varied. Kev and

Trace might scrape through driving their corsa a bit erratically on a car
test
but they'd be failed in minutes on an HGV or bus test.

My cousin did his HGV test using all that was available... A tank
transported loaded with a tank.

Apparently he mounted the kerb several times and bent a few bollards but
still passed.

I'm guessing that was a while back, he wouldn't get away with that today.

Only about 10 years ago.

It depends exactly where and why that happened!


The military have different rules don’t they? ICBW but aren’t the age
limits lower to obtain a licence for large vehicles for personnel serving
in the forces. And at various times since motorised vehicles replaced
horses
when the need demanded it a military test was basically not much more than
can you make it move ,can you steer it ,can you stop it. Pass any two
,well done lad you are now a driver. Though during WW2 driving tests were
suspended for civilians as well and many people took advantage that a
driving permit or provisional licence issued could for a short time
afterwards be converted to a full licence without any further test.
Explains a lot of the dire driving standards encountered from that
generation over the following decades especially when they became elderly
know it alls ,at least those reaching those years now will normally have
passed a test at some time.

GH

Jobsworth driver
 

"Marland" wrote in message
...
Though during WW2 driving tests were
suspended for civilians as well and many people took advantage that a
driving permit or provisional licence issued could for a short time
afterwards be converted to a full licence without any further test.
Explains a lot of the dire driving standards encountered from that
generation over the following decades especially when they became elderly
know it alls ,at least those reaching those years now will normally have
passed a test at some time.

I didn't know that the civilian driving test was suspended during WWII -
presumably to free up examiners to do war work, and to remove all the
bureaucracy of administering the tests. However very few civilians would
have been able to get petrol unless they were in a reserved occupation.

Apart from the WWII window of opportunity, the youngest person who has not
passed a test would have been 17 in 1935, so they'd be born in 1918 and
therefore 101 now. And the youngest person who would have slipped through
the WWII window would have been 17 in 1945 and therefore 91. Assuming that
the age of starting to drive was 17 in those days as well.

I think a lot of the problem with driving standards is not due to lack of
test, but to bravado and overconfidence (mainly in the young), or being
completely oblivious of surroundings and car controls (mainly in the
elderly) - in both cases, I'm making very broad-brush generalisations.
Intoxication and falling asleep at the wheel probably applies to most ages.

As I understand it, a lot of the cases of drivers (usually elderly) who
accidentally drive/reverse into shop fronts is because they confuse the
accelerator and brake in an automatic car, and then press the accelerator
instead of the brake when they realise they are out of control.


My grandpa was still driving right up until he died (*) when he was in his
mid 90s. He was very choosy about when/where he drove - out of rush hour, on
rural roads rather than busy urban roads. The last time I rode with him, I
was impressed with his standard of driving: he didn't cut corners when
pulling out from side roads, he got up to nearly the speed limit without too
much dawdling, he was cautious but not hesitant at junctions. The only
"funny" was that he had a habit of slipping the car into neutral and
coasting as he was approaching a junction or when going downhill, which I
think was a carry-over from wartime petrol rationing days as a fuel-saving
measure. Nowadays with fuel injection it would actually work against you: if
you stay in gear, the ECU detects that the car is in over-run and cuts the
fuel completely, whereas in neutral a bit of fuel is needed to keep the
engine idling. The instantaneous fuel consumption display on my car's trip
computer shows this: when coasting in neutral, the consumption is about 200
mpg, whereas in gear with no throttle it is 999 ("infinite") mpg.


(*) And that was complications from a fall when he was shopping, not in a
car crash ;-)

Jobsworth driver
 

On 25/11/2019 11:43, wrote:
On Sun, 24 Nov 2019 11:55:09 -0000 (UTC)
Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
wrote:
The test for a commercial vehicle is a LOT harder than a car. You don't get
away with many mistakes and the test enviroment is a lot more varied. Kev and

Trace might scrape through driving their corsa a bit erratically on a car
test
but they'd be failed in minutes on an HGV or bus test.



And yet with the same breath you dismiss train driving as 'pulling levers'.
Surely you realise that the train driving assessment is just as strict, if
not more so?

I can imagine being a steam locomotive driver was a bugger of a job. Physically
hard and you had to get the feel of the engine under different loads. I suspect
driving a modern freight loco is still tricky (although not physically) as you
could be just driving the loco itself or have 2000 tons behing you.

Driving a computer controlled EMU though that won't allow you to play silly
buggers with the throttle and brake, doesn't change much in behaviour from
empty to full load, doesn't have to be steered and when it goes wrong needs
a technician with a laptop to turn up anyway? Don't tell me thats particularly
hard.

Seems to me the only hard part of being a modern EMU driver is the shift work
aspect of the job, other than that - piece of ****.


Nonsense. I have never driven a real train, but I was once allowed to
drive a dmu simulator. The most difficult part was knowing when / where
to apply the brakes for checks or station stops. And that involved just
one check and one (simulated) station.

Dependent on the extent of their route knowledge, drivers may need to
know the locations of dozens of stations, numerous signals and speed
restrictions - at daylight - in good or bad visibility, or at night -
and then need to be able to judge the best places to apply brakes -
often on several types of unit - and in all sorts of weather conditions.
In addition, they need to be prepared for short term temporary speed limits.

So it is not as easy as you might think.

Jobsworth driver
 

On 24/11/2019 19:35, Charles Ellson wrote:
On 24 Nov 2019 13:51:40 GMT, Marland
wrote:

Boltar may be a natural at vehicle handling which not all people are so the
physical driving was ticked off on the first day, the rest were spent
learning what the ringing sound was as the bus approached a stop.

Not in London then where you get ****s ringing the bell 0.1sec after
the bus has left the previous stop.

I had that in Birmingham as well, it's not just a London thing. Also
people standing just behind the cab waiting to get off and NOT ringing
the bell, then complaining when the bus doesn't stop.


--
Ria in Aberdeen

[Send address is invalid, use sipsoup at gmail dot com to reply direct]

Jobsworth driver
 

On 24/11/2019 22:29, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
John Ray wrote:
On 24/11/2019 21:00, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:

Is there some approved timescale for omnibus campanology of which I'm
somehow unaware?

I always wait for the next stop to be announced on the PA system, which
means that, very often, I don't get the chance to ring the bell.


Could spend all day riding backwards and forwards on some routes waiting
for a PA announcement!

Assuming the bus has it fitted, ours never did, we were lucky to get
bells that worked (most of the time anyway, unless the scrotes had
ripped out the buttons and the wiring).

--
Ria in Aberdeen

[Send address is invalid, use sipsoup at gmail dot com to reply direct]

Jobsworth driver
 

"Bevan Price" wrote in message
...
Dependent on the extent of their route knowledge, drivers may need to know
the locations of dozens of stations, numerous signals and speed
restrictions - at daylight - in good or bad visibility, or at night - and
then need to be able to judge the best places to apply brakes - often on
several types of unit - and in all sorts of weather conditions. In
addition, they need to be prepared for short term temporary speed limits.

So it is not as easy as you might think.

I have nothing but admiration for train drivers, having to remember the
route to a much greater extent than a driver of a car or lorry who are able
to stop in much shorter distances and who drive largely by sight - it is
considered safe for a car to be driven on a road that the driver has never
seen before, without "route knowledge".

I have enough difficulty remembering the *order* and *spacing* of landmarks
and hazards on a route that I drive frequently. I can remember *what* they
are, but not necessarily where or how far apart. And that's because there is
no need to remember them, because I'm driving according to what I can see is
safe ahead.

It's probably a memory skill that is similar to a London cabbie's
"knowledge": fewer junctions but much more detailed knowledge of braking
points and gradients.

Jobsworth driver
 

On Mon, 25 Nov 2019 16:23:24 +0000
Bevan Price wrote:
On 25/11/2019 11:43, wrote:
On Sun, 24 Nov 2019 11:55:09 -0000 (UTC)
Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
wrote:
The test for a commercial vehicle is a LOT harder than a car. You don't get

away with many mistakes and the test enviroment is a lot more varied. Kev
and

Trace might scrape through driving their corsa a bit erratically on a car
test
but they'd be failed in minutes on an HGV or bus test.



And yet with the same breath you dismiss train driving as 'pulling levers'.
Surely you realise that the train driving assessment is just as strict, if
not more so?

I can imagine being a steam locomotive driver was a bugger of a job.
Physically
hard and you had to get the feel of the engine under different loads. I
suspect
driving a modern freight loco is still tricky (although not physically) as
you
could be just driving the loco itself or have 2000 tons behing you.

Driving a computer controlled EMU though that won't allow you to play silly
buggers with the throttle and brake, doesn't change much in behaviour from
empty to full load, doesn't have to be steered and when it goes wrong needs
a technician with a laptop to turn up anyway? Don't tell me thats
particularly
hard.

Seems to me the only hard part of being a modern EMU driver is the shift work

aspect of the job, other than that - piece of ****.


Nonsense. I have never driven a real train, but I was once allowed to
drive a dmu simulator. The most difficult part was knowing when / where
to apply the brakes for checks or station stops. And that involved just
one check and one (simulated) station.

So? A bit of practice and no doubt it becomes 2nd nature.

Dependent on the extent of their route knowledge, drivers may need to
know the locations of dozens of stations, numerous signals and speed
restrictions - at daylight - in good or bad visibility, or at night -
and then need to be able to judge the best places to apply brakes -
often on several types of unit - and in all sorts of weather conditions.
In addition, they need to be prepared for short term temporary speed limits.

And thats different to the experience of driving a road vehicle how exactly?

Jobsworth driver
 

On Mon, 25 Nov 2019 16:33:39 -0000
"NY" wrote:
"Bevan Price" wrote in message
...
Dependent on the extent of their route knowledge, drivers may need to know
the locations of dozens of stations, numerous signals and speed
restrictions - at daylight - in good or bad visibility, or at night - and
then need to be able to judge the best places to apply brakes - often on
several types of unit - and in all sorts of weather conditions. In
addition, they need to be prepared for short term temporary speed limits.

So it is not as easy as you might think.

I have nothing but admiration for train drivers, having to remember the
route to a much greater extent than a driver of a car or lorry who are able
to stop in much shorter distances and who drive largely by sight - it is
considered safe for a car to be driven on a road that the driver has never
seen before, without "route knowledge".

I have enough difficulty remembering the *order* and *spacing* of landmarks
and hazards on a route that I drive frequently. I can remember *what* they
are, but not necessarily where or how far apart. And that's because there is
no need to remember them, because I'm driving according to what I can see is
safe ahead.

OTOH train drivers don't have to:
- steer
- maintain a safe distance from the vehicle in front
- keep in lane
- manouver in tight spaces
- know dozens of road signs and act accordingly
- reverse while looking in mirrors
- get the timing right pulling out from junctions
- merge with fast moving traffic on a motorway
- worry about height restrictions (for lorry and bus)

But they have to be good at judging braking distance. BFD. If that was all
driving a road vehicle entailed everyone would pass first time after a 30 min
lesson.

Jobsworth driver
 

On 25/11/2019 14:44, Marland wrote:
wrote:
On 25/11/2019 11:36, wrote:
On Sun, 24 Nov 2019 10:58:07 +0000
wrote:
On 24/11/2019 10:50, wrote:
The test for a commercial vehicle is a LOT harder than a car. You don't get
away with many mistakes and the test enviroment is a lot more varied. Kev and

Trace might scrape through driving their corsa a bit erratically on a car
test
but they'd be failed in minutes on an HGV or bus test.

My cousin did his HGV test using all that was available... A tank
transported loaded with a tank.

Apparently he mounted the kerb several times and bent a few bollards but
still passed.

I'm guessing that was a while back, he wouldn't get away with that today.

Only about 10 years ago.

It depends exactly where and why that happened!


The military have different rules don’t they? ICBW but aren’t the age
limits lower to obtain a licence for large vehicles for personnel serving
in the forces. And at various times since motorised vehicles replaced
horses
The age is lower in the forces but only for driving military vehicles
and you are only given a military driving permit which cannot be used
with a private vehicle.

I'm not sure what the arrangements for getting a civil licence these
days. They were conducted by the military but that may have changed.
These "incidents" occurred during this conversion.

when the need demanded it a military test was basically not much more than
can you make it move ,can you steer it ,can you stop it. Pass any two
,well done lad you are now a driver. Though during WW2 driving tests were
suspended for civilians as well and many people took advantage that a
driving permit or provisional licence issued could for a short time
afterwards be converted to a full licence without any further test.
Explains a lot of the dire driving standards encountered from that
generation over the following decades especially when they became elderly
know it alls ,at least those reaching those years now will normally have
passed a test at some time.

GH

Jobsworth driver
 

In message , at 16:47:21 on Mon, 25 Nov
2019, remarked:

train drivers don't have to:
- steer
- maintain a safe distance from the vehicle in front

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/t...t-neville-hill

- keep in lane
- manouver in tight spaces
- know dozens of road signs and act accordingly
- reverse while looking in mirrors
- get the timing right pulling out from junctions
- merge with fast moving traffic on a motorway
- worry about height restrictions (for lorry and bus)

--
Roland Perry

Jobsworth driver
 

On Mon, 25 Nov 2019 11:51:28 +0000 (UTC), wrote:

On 24 Nov 2019 13:51:40 GMT
Marland wrote:
Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
wrote:
On Sat, 23 Nov 2019 23:22:23 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote:
NY wrote:
"Charles Ellson" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 23 Nov 2019 12:34:10 +0000 (UTC), wrote:
It took me 4 days to learn to drive a bus - test on the 5th. And that
involves
having to actually steer the vehicle through narrow streets and around
parked
vehicles, not something train drivers have to worry about. So I reckon
2
or 3
days to learn to push a lever backwards and forwards and get a feel for
braking under different loads (no different to an HGV) and a few more
weeks for
for learning signals, basic trouble shooting and some routes. A month
tops.

What sort of vehicles had you driven before then? Were you already used
to
driving anything larger than a standard Ford Cortina size of car?


But that is nowhere near as extreme as driving a bus which is wider still

and a lot longer. If you only had prior experience of driving a car, then

I'm impressed that you passed a bus test on day 5.

Neil also has an HGV licence — maybe he got that before driving the bus?


I did.



So you already had (a) experience of driving road vehicles (b) experience
of driving large road vehicles. 5 days to learn that the front wheels are
further back and that you have to look out for passengers?



Boltar may be a natural at vehicle handling which not all people are so the
physical driving was ticked off on the first day, the rest were spent
learning what the ringing sound was as the bus approached a stop.

You have to do bloody role play on the test - examiner pretends hes a
passenger - ding ding etc - pull up gently to at the correct stopping point
open/close doors, check Mrs Pensioner hasn't falled over in the aisle etc.
And miss the stopping point and that IIRC is a serious fault which = fail.

With a lorry test , as long as you can keep it on the road, don't clip the
scenery and don't hit anyone you'll probably pass though with the Class 1
test you have to reverse with a trailer which isn't easy. God knows how the
aussie drivers reverse a double or triple.

One at a time or just "go around"?

Jobsworth driver
 

On Mon, 25 Nov 2019 15:27:24 -0000, "NY" wrote:



"Marland" wrote in message
...
Though during WW2 driving tests were
suspended for civilians as well and many people took advantage that a
driving permit or provisional licence issued could for a short time
afterwards be converted to a full licence without any further test.
Explains a lot of the dire driving standards encountered from that
generation over the following decades especially when they became elderly
know it alls ,at least those reaching those years now will normally have
passed a test at some time.

I didn't know that the civilian driving test was suspended during WWII -
presumably to free up examiners to do war work, and to remove all the
bureaucracy of administering the tests. However very few civilians would
have been able to get petrol unless they were in a reserved occupation.

Saving fuel was a significant reason IIRC.
snip

Jobsworth driver
 

On Mon, 25 Nov 2019 16:37:37 +0000 (UTC), wrote:

On Mon, 25 Nov 2019 16:23:24 +0000
Bevan Price wrote:
On 25/11/2019 11:43, wrote:
On Sun, 24 Nov 2019 11:55:09 -0000 (UTC)
Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
wrote:
The test for a commercial vehicle is a LOT harder than a car. You don't get

away with many mistakes and the test enviroment is a lot more varied. Kev
and

Trace might scrape through driving their corsa a bit erratically on a car
test
but they'd be failed in minutes on an HGV or bus test.



And yet with the same breath you dismiss train driving as 'pulling levers'.
Surely you realise that the train driving assessment is just as strict, if
not more so?

I can imagine being a steam locomotive driver was a bugger of a job.
Physically
hard and you had to get the feel of the engine under different loads. I
suspect
driving a modern freight loco is still tricky (although not physically) as
you
could be just driving the loco itself or have 2000 tons behing you.

Driving a computer controlled EMU though that won't allow you to play silly
buggers with the throttle and brake, doesn't change much in behaviour from
empty to full load, doesn't have to be steered and when it goes wrong needs
a technician with a laptop to turn up anyway? Don't tell me thats
particularly
hard.

Seems to me the only hard part of being a modern EMU driver is the shift work

aspect of the job, other than that - piece of ****.


Nonsense. I have never driven a real train, but I was once allowed to
drive a dmu simulator. The most difficult part was knowing when / where
to apply the brakes for checks or station stops. And that involved just
one check and one (simulated) station.

So? A bit of practice and no doubt it becomes 2nd nature.

Dependent on the extent of their route knowledge, drivers may need to
know the locations of dozens of stations, numerous signals and speed
restrictions - at daylight - in good or bad visibility, or at night -
and then need to be able to judge the best places to apply brakes -
often on several types of unit - and in all sorts of weather conditions.
In addition, they need to be prepared for short term temporary speed limits.

And thats different to the experience of driving a road vehicle how exactly?

You can't swerve out of trouble if you get it wrong.

Jobsworth driver
 

On 25/11/2019 18:45, Charles Ellson wrote:
On Mon, 25 Nov 2019 15:27:24 -0000, "NY" wrote:



"Marland" wrote in message
...
Though during WW2 driving tests were
suspended for civilians as well and many people took advantage that a
driving permit or provisional licence issued could for a short time
afterwards be converted to a full licence without any further test.
Explains a lot of the dire driving standards encountered from that
generation over the following decades especially when they became elderly
know it alls ,at least those reaching those years now will normally have
passed a test at some time.

I didn't know that the civilian driving test was suspended during WWII -
presumably to free up examiners to do war work, and to remove all the
bureaucracy of administering the tests. However very few civilians would
have been able to get petrol unless they were in a reserved occupation.

Saving fuel was a significant reason IIRC.
snip


Do not know about military / civilian licences, but the idea that
driving tests were stopped during the war is correct.
https://www.gov.uk/government/public...e-driving-test

--
Colin

Jobsworth driver
 

wrote:


With a lorry test , as long as you can keep it on the road, don't clip the
scenery and don't hit anyone you'll probably pass though with the Class 1
test you have to reverse with a trailer which isn't easy. God knows how the
aussie drivers reverse a double or triple.


I strongly suspect that they don’t reverse them because it’s got to be near
enough impossible, surely?


Anna Noyd-Dryver

Jobsworth driver
 

wrote:
On Sun, 24 Nov 2019 23:33:10 +0000
Charles Ellson wrote:
On Sun, 24 Nov 2019 21:00:07 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
wrote:
Other than airport vehicles which have to fit under things, it's all for
the same reason - quick and easy access of people (be they staff or
passengers) into the vehicle.

Many airport vehicles tend to have equipment/structures which overhang
the cab. The great majority of refuse vehicles have conventional
height cabs including ones built by Dennis. AFAIR entry/egress is not
necessarily easier as the design causes the wheel arch to intrude into
the rear of the cab doorway and thus reduces the available width at
the bottom in what in photographs seems to be the shorter of two cab
lengths. Photographs also show that the rear door pillar is often
forward of the rear of the driver's seat thus preventing exiting by
simply turning through 90deg and stepping out.

Unlike in the railway industry - when road rules are made the driver is the
last person considered. In the USA truck drivers get nice large cabs and a long
bonnet thats a useful crumple zone in a crash. In the EU with its dumb
overall length rules the tractor unit and hence cab is made as short as
possible so the trailer can be as long as possible in the rules. So all there
is between you and whatever you hit is the windscreen and dashboard. Doesn't
matter if its a car, it does if its another lorry or a tree.



"Directive (EU) 2015/719 (which amends Directive 96/53/EC ) grants
derogations on the maximal lengths to make heavy goods vehicles greener by
improving their aerodynamic performance. This also provides the opportunity
to make them safer by including new features in the extra space in the
driver cabin."


Anna Noyd-Dryver

Jobsworth driver
 

wrote:


OTOH train drivers don't have to:
- steer
- maintain a safe distance from the vehicle in front
- keep in lane
- manouver in tight spaces
- know dozens of road signs and act accordingly

Dozens of railway signs instead.

- reverse while looking in mirrors
- get the timing right pulling out from junctions
- merge with fast moving traffic on a motorway
- worry about height restrictions (for lorry and bus)


Restrictions on which kinds of stock are/are not allowed along certain
lines/platforms instead, and different speeds for different kinds of stock
on some lines.


Anna Noyd-Dryver

Jobsworth driver
 

wrote:
On Mon, 25 Nov 2019 16:23:24 +0000
Bevan Price wrote:
On 25/11/2019 11:43, wrote:
On Sun, 24 Nov 2019 11:55:09 -0000 (UTC)
Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
wrote:
The test for a commercial vehicle is a LOT harder than a car. You don't get

away with many mistakes and the test enviroment is a lot more varied. Kev
and

Trace might scrape through driving their corsa a bit erratically on a car
test
but they'd be failed in minutes on an HGV or bus test.



And yet with the same breath you dismiss train driving as 'pulling levers'.
Surely you realise that the train driving assessment is just as strict, if
not more so?

I can imagine being a steam locomotive driver was a bugger of a job.
Physically
hard and you had to get the feel of the engine under different loads. I
suspect
driving a modern freight loco is still tricky (although not physically) as
you
could be just driving the loco itself or have 2000 tons behing you.

Driving a computer controlled EMU though that won't allow you to play silly
buggers with the throttle and brake, doesn't change much in behaviour from
empty to full load, doesn't have to be steered and when it goes wrong needs
a technician with a laptop to turn up anyway? Don't tell me thats
particularly
hard.

Seems to me the only hard part of being a modern EMU driver is the shift work

aspect of the job, other than that - piece of ****.


Nonsense. I have never driven a real train, but I was once allowed to
drive a dmu simulator. The most difficult part was knowing when / where
to apply the brakes for checks or station stops. And that involved just
one check and one (simulated) station.

So? A bit of practice and no doubt it becomes 2nd nature.

Dependent on the extent of their route knowledge, drivers may need to
know the locations of dozens of stations, numerous signals and speed
restrictions - at daylight - in good or bad visibility, or at night -
and then need to be able to judge the best places to apply brakes -
often on several types of unit - and in all sorts of weather conditions.
In addition, they need to be prepared for short term temporary speed limits.

And thats different to the experience of driving a road vehicle how exactly?



How much 'practice' do you think you'll need to drive a ~600 tonne object
which takes over a mile to stop, at up to 125mph in 50 yard visibility fog,
without losing time, over 700 miles of route?


Anna Noyd-Dryver

Jobsworth driver
 

On Mon, 25 Nov 2019 16:57:03 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 16:47:21 on Mon, 25 Nov
2019, remarked:

train drivers don't have to:
- steer
- maintain a safe distance from the vehicle in front

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/t...t-neville-hill

Well SPADs are another matter as is going through a red traffic light.

Jobsworth driver
 

On Mon, 25 Nov 2019 18:21:45 +0000
Charles Ellson wrote:
On Mon, 25 Nov 2019 11:51:28 +0000 (UTC), wrote:
With a lorry test , as long as you can keep it on the road, don't clip the
scenery and don't hit anyone you'll probably pass though with the Class 1
test you have to reverse with a trailer which isn't easy. God knows how the
aussie drivers reverse a double or triple.

One at a time or just "go around"?

At one time. Look on youtube, there's some examples of some amazing driving
skills with truckers reversing a 3 trailer road train. God knows how they do it.

Jobsworth driver
 

On Mon, 25 Nov 2019 22:57:16 -0000 (UTC)
Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
wrote:


With a lorry test , as long as you can keep it on the road, don't clip the
scenery and don't hit anyone you'll probably pass though with the Class 1
test you have to reverse with a trailer which isn't easy. God knows how the
aussie drivers reverse a double or triple.


I strongly suspect that they don’t reverse them because it’s got to be near

enough impossible, surely?

Impossible for me, you and 99.99% of people. But some people can do it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3j6FvzfnRE

I guess that counts counter counter counter steering.

When I was having lessons I spoke about this with my instructor. Once someone
got him out to reverse a continental double (trailer with its own steering
bogie) that had got stuck in a cul de sac and its driver couldn't do it. He
said he tried for 5 mins and gave up. Apparently the trailer had to be dragged
out backwards in the end.

Jobsworth driver
 

wrote:
On Mon, 25 Nov 2019 16:57:03 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 16:47:21 on Mon, 25 Nov
2019, remarked:

train drivers don't have to:
- steer
- maintain a safe distance from the vehicle in front

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/t...t-neville-hill

Well SPADs are another matter as is going through a red traffic light.


That wasn't a SPAD.

Jobsworth driver
 

On 25/11/2019 22:57, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:

How much 'practice' do you think you'll need to drive a ~600 tonne object
which takes over a mile to stop, at up to 125mph in 50 yard visibility fog,
without losing time, over 700 miles of route?


Surely the Aberdeen-Penzance train doesn't have a single driver for the
13 hour journey.

--
Basil Jet recently enjoyed listening to
Electronic - 1996 - Raise The Pressure (bonus tracks, complete)

Jobsworth driver
 

In message , at 13:08:46 on Tue, 26 Nov
2019, Basil Jet remarked:

How much 'practice' do you think you'll need to drive a ~600 tonne
object which takes over a mile to stop, at up to 125mph in 50 yard
visibility fog, without losing time, over 700 miles of route?

Surely the Aberdeen-Penzance train doesn't have a single driver for the
13 hour journey.

The reason so many trains stop a places like York and Preston isn't
because they are especially big important places, but they are halfway
to Scotland, and they can swap drivers.

No doubt the sleepers swap at Edinburgh/Glasgow too.
--
Roland Perry

Jobsworth driver
 

wrote:
On Mon, 25 Nov 2019 16:57:03 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 16:47:21 on Mon, 25 Nov
2019, remarked:

train drivers don't have to:
- steer
- maintain a safe distance from the vehicle in front

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/t...t-neville-hill

Well SPADs are another matter as is going through a red traffic light.


That wasn't a spad.


Anna Noyd-Dryver

Jobsworth driver
 

wrote:
On Mon, 25 Nov 2019 22:57:16 -0000 (UTC)
Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
wrote:


With a lorry test , as long as you can keep it on the road, don't clip the
scenery and don't hit anyone you'll probably pass though with the Class 1
test you have to reverse with a trailer which isn't easy. God knows how the
aussie drivers reverse a double or triple.


I strongly suspect that they don’t reverse them because it’s got to be near

enough impossible, surely?

Impossible for me, you and 99.99% of people. But some people can do it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3j6FvzfnRE

I guess that counts counter counter counter steering.


He only reversed it half its own length!


Anna Noyd-Dryver

Jobsworth driver
 

Basil Jet wrote:
On 25/11/2019 22:57, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:

How much 'practice' do you think you'll need to drive a ~600 tonne object
which takes over a mile to stop, at up to 125mph in 50 yard visibility fog,
without losing time, over 700 miles of route?


Surely the Aberdeen-Penzance train doesn't have a single driver for the
13 hour journey.


No, there will be several driver changes along the way, not least because
very few TOCs have lodging agreements for drivers.

But that's not what I meant. I sign 700 miles of route, obviously I don't
drive it all every day.


Anna Noyd-Dryver

Jobsworth driver
 

On Tue, 26 Nov 2019 14:48:24 -0000 (UTC)
Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
wrote:
On Mon, 25 Nov 2019 22:57:16 -0000 (UTC)
Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
wrote:


With a lorry test , as long as you can keep it on the road, don't clip the

scenery and don't hit anyone you'll probably pass though with the Class 1
test you have to reverse with a trailer which isn't easy. God knows how the

aussie drivers reverse a double or triple.


I strongly suspect that they don’t reverse them because it’s got to be
near

enough impossible, surely?

Impossible for me, you and 99.99% of people. But some people can do it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3j6FvzfnRE

I guess that counts counter counter counter steering.


He only reversed it half its own length!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODZ1MScvyZ8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sRQSWh0I90

Jobsworth driver
 

On Tue, 26 Nov 2019 14:48:24 -0000 (UTC)
Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
wrote:
On Mon, 25 Nov 2019 16:57:03 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 16:47:21 on Mon, 25 Nov
2019, remarked:

train drivers don't have to:
- steer
- maintain a safe distance from the vehicle in front

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/t...t-neville-hill

Well SPADs are another matter as is going through a red traffic light.


That wasn't a spad.

Well in that case I guess all those months of training and the driver still
can't judge braking distance. Either that or he's blind.

Jobsworth driver
 

On Sun, 24 Nov 2019 19:35:03 +0000, Charles Ellson
wrote:

On 24 Nov 2019 13:51:40 GMT, Marland
wrote:

Boltar may be a natural at vehicle handling which not all people are so the
physical driving was ticked off on the first day, the rest were spent
learning what the ringing sound was as the bus approached a stop.

Not in London then where you get ****s ringing the bell 0.1sec after
the bus has left the previous stop.

Better than ringing it too late IMO. Or ringing it when someone else
has already done it - why does the device not suppress that - or at
the terminus (if you know that it is). Shows a lack of awareness of
surroundings and fellow humans I think.

And points deducted from Alexander Dennis, who as well as making the
most rattling new buses in the world, provide them with the sound of
the *starting* signal when you press the bell.

Richard.

Jobsworth driver
 

Richard wrote:
On Sun, 24 Nov 2019 19:35:03 +0000, Charles Ellson
wrote:

On 24 Nov 2019 13:51:40 GMT, Marland
wrote:

Boltar may be a natural at vehicle handling which not all people are so the
physical driving was ticked off on the first day, the rest were spent
learning what the ringing sound was as the bus approached a stop.

Not in London then where you get ****s ringing the bell 0.1sec after
the bus has left the previous stop.

Better than ringing it too late IMO. Or ringing it when someone else
has already done it

If someone rings it immediately after departure from the previous stop, I
can see the logic in ringing it again on approach to the stop, in case the
driver has forgotten in the meantime.

- why does the device not suppress that


Until fairly recently they were very simple devices - either some
electrical contacts and a bell, or an air pressure operated device. Adding
something to make it only ring once would be unnecessary complication.

And points deducted from Alexander Dennis, who as well as making the
most rattling new buses in the world, provide them with the sound of
the *starting* signal when you press the bell.


Considering how rarely there is a requirement to give a starting signal by
bell code on a modern bus, I'd suggest that giving more than just one short
ding (which may be easily missed depending what else is going on) is a good
idea. The buses round my way give three dings of two different tones.


Anna Noyd-Dryver

Jobsworth driver
 

On 26/11/2019 11:28, wrote:
On Mon, 25 Nov 2019 16:57:03 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 16:47:21 on Mon, 25 Nov
2019, remarked:

train drivers don't have to:
- steer
- maintain a safe distance from the vehicle in front

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/t...t-neville-hill

Well SPADs are another matter as is going through a red traffic light.

I suggest you read the report before commenting.

Jobsworth driver
 

On 26/11/2019 20:17, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
Richard wrote:
On Sun, 24 Nov 2019 19:35:03 +0000, Charles Ellson
wrote:

On 24 Nov 2019 13:51:40 GMT, Marland
wrote:

Boltar may be a natural at vehicle handling which not all people are so the
physical driving was ticked off on the first day, the rest were spent
learning what the ringing sound was as the bus approached a stop.

Not in London then where you get ****s ringing the bell 0.1sec after
the bus has left the previous stop.

Better than ringing it too late IMO. Or ringing it when someone else
has already done it

If someone rings it immediately after departure from the previous stop, I
can see the logic in ringing it again on approach to the stop, in case the
driver has forgotten in the meantime.

Except most modern buses have a light on the dash that remains on till
the doors open again.


--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Jobsworth driver
 

On 25 Nov 2019 00:17:58 GMT, Marland
wrote:

Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
Charles Ellson wrote:
On 24 Nov 2019 13:51:40 GMT, Marland
wrote:


Boltar may be a natural at vehicle handling which not all people are so the
physical driving was ticked off on the first day, the rest were spent
learning what the ringing sound was as the bus approached a stop.

Not in London then where you get ****s ringing the bell 0.1sec after
the bus has left the previous stop.


Is there some approved timescale for omnibus campanology of which I'm
somehow unaware?



Although I haven’t used one for some years now Southampton passengers
seemed to be very reluctant to use the bell to the extent that visitors to
the City sometimes remarked about it.
The technique seemed to be that someone wishing to alight at the next stop
would get up from their seat
and just lurk a few feet behind the driver who took that as the signal they
wished to get off .
I rang the bell once and the effect wasn’t that much different to that
created by trying to start a conversation on the London Underground.

Any other places where the use of the Bell was similarly disdained.

I'm not sure if the buses in Lanarkshire even had bells, I never heard
one.

Jobsworth driver
 

In article , Marland
writes
The military have different rules don’t they? ICBW but aren’t the age
limits lower to obtain a licence for large vehicles for personnel serving
in the forces.

Last time I checked the minimum age limits on driving types of vehicles
didn't apply to those in the forces driving military/naval/air force
vehicles.

--
Clive D.W. Feather