"Bevan Price" wrote in message
...
Dependent on the extent of their route knowledge, drivers may need to know
the locations of dozens of stations, numerous signals and speed
restrictions - at daylight - in good or bad visibility, or at night - and
then need to be able to judge the best places to apply brakes - often on
several types of unit - and in all sorts of weather conditions. In
addition, they need to be prepared for short term temporary speed limits.

So it is not as easy as you might think.

I have nothing but admiration for train drivers, having to remember the
route to a much greater extent than a driver of a car or lorry who are able
to stop in much shorter distances and who drive largely by sight - it is
considered safe for a car to be driven on a road that the driver has never
seen before, without "route knowledge".

I have enough difficulty remembering the *order* and *spacing* of landmarks
and hazards on a route that I drive frequently. I can remember *what* they
are, but not necessarily where or how far apart. And that's because there is
no need to remember them, because I'm driving according to what I can see is
safe ahead.

It's probably a memory skill that is similar to a London cabbie's
"knowledge": fewer junctions but much more detailed knowledge of braking
points and gradients.

On Mon, 25 Nov 2019 16:23:24 +0000
Bevan Price wrote:
On 25/11/2019 11:43, wrote:
On Sun, 24 Nov 2019 11:55:09 -0000 (UTC)
Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
wrote:
The test for a commercial vehicle is a LOT harder than a car. You don't get

away with many mistakes and the test enviroment is a lot more varied. Kev
and

Trace might scrape through driving their corsa a bit erratically on a car
test
but they'd be failed in minutes on an HGV or bus test.



And yet with the same breath you dismiss train driving as 'pulling levers'.
Surely you realise that the train driving assessment is just as strict, if
not more so?

I can imagine being a steam locomotive driver was a bugger of a job.
Physically
hard and you had to get the feel of the engine under different loads. I
suspect
driving a modern freight loco is still tricky (although not physically) as
you
could be just driving the loco itself or have 2000 tons behing you.

Driving a computer controlled EMU though that won't allow you to play silly
buggers with the throttle and brake, doesn't change much in behaviour from
empty to full load, doesn't have to be steered and when it goes wrong needs
a technician with a laptop to turn up anyway? Don't tell me thats
particularly
hard.

Seems to me the only hard part of being a modern EMU driver is the shift work

aspect of the job, other than that - piece of ****.


Nonsense. I have never driven a real train, but I was once allowed to
drive a dmu simulator. The most difficult part was knowing when / where
to apply the brakes for checks or station stops. And that involved just
one check and one (simulated) station.

So? A bit of practice and no doubt it becomes 2nd nature.

Dependent on the extent of their route knowledge, drivers may need to
know the locations of dozens of stations, numerous signals and speed
restrictions - at daylight - in good or bad visibility, or at night -
and then need to be able to judge the best places to apply brakes -
often on several types of unit - and in all sorts of weather conditions.
In addition, they need to be prepared for short term temporary speed limits.

And thats different to the experience of driving a road vehicle how exactly?

On Mon, 25 Nov 2019 16:33:39 -0000
"NY" wrote:
"Bevan Price" wrote in message
...
Dependent on the extent of their route knowledge, drivers may need to know
the locations of dozens of stations, numerous signals and speed
restrictions - at daylight - in good or bad visibility, or at night - and
then need to be able to judge the best places to apply brakes - often on
several types of unit - and in all sorts of weather conditions. In
addition, they need to be prepared for short term temporary speed limits.

So it is not as easy as you might think.

I have nothing but admiration for train drivers, having to remember the
route to a much greater extent than a driver of a car or lorry who are able
to stop in much shorter distances and who drive largely by sight - it is
considered safe for a car to be driven on a road that the driver has never
seen before, without "route knowledge".

I have enough difficulty remembering the *order* and *spacing* of landmarks
and hazards on a route that I drive frequently. I can remember *what* they
are, but not necessarily where or how far apart. And that's because there is
no need to remember them, because I'm driving according to what I can see is
safe ahead.

OTOH train drivers don't have to:
- steer
- maintain a safe distance from the vehicle in front
- keep in lane
- manouver in tight spaces
- know dozens of road signs and act accordingly
- reverse while looking in mirrors
- get the timing right pulling out from junctions
- merge with fast moving traffic on a motorway
- worry about height restrictions (for lorry and bus)

But they have to be good at judging braking distance. BFD. If that was all
driving a road vehicle entailed everyone would pass first time after a 30 min
lesson.

On 25/11/2019 14:44, Marland wrote:
wrote:
On 25/11/2019 11:36, wrote:
On Sun, 24 Nov 2019 10:58:07 +0000
wrote:
On 24/11/2019 10:50, wrote:
The test for a commercial vehicle is a LOT harder than a car. You don't get
away with many mistakes and the test enviroment is a lot more varied. Kev and

Trace might scrape through driving their corsa a bit erratically on a car
test
but they'd be failed in minutes on an HGV or bus test.

My cousin did his HGV test using all that was available... A tank
transported loaded with a tank.

Apparently he mounted the kerb several times and bent a few bollards but
still passed.

I'm guessing that was a while back, he wouldn't get away with that today.

Only about 10 years ago.

It depends exactly where and why that happened!


The military have different rules don’t they? ICBW but aren’t the age
limits lower to obtain a licence for large vehicles for personnel serving
in the forces. And at various times since motorised vehicles replaced
horses
The age is lower in the forces but only for driving military vehicles
and you are only given a military driving permit which cannot be used
with a private vehicle.

I'm not sure what the arrangements for getting a civil licence these
days. They were conducted by the military but that may have changed.
These "incidents" occurred during this conversion.

when the need demanded it a military test was basically not much more than
can you make it move ,can you steer it ,can you stop it. Pass any two
,well done lad you are now a driver. Though during WW2 driving tests were
suspended for civilians as well and many people took advantage that a
driving permit or provisional licence issued could for a short time
afterwards be converted to a full licence without any further test.
Explains a lot of the dire driving standards encountered from that
generation over the following decades especially when they became elderly
know it alls ,at least those reaching those years now will normally have
passed a test at some time.

GH

In message , at 16:47:21 on Mon, 25 Nov
2019, remarked:

train drivers don't have to:
- steer
- maintain a safe distance from the vehicle in front

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/t...t-neville-hill

- keep in lane
- manouver in tight spaces
- know dozens of road signs and act accordingly
- reverse while looking in mirrors
- get the timing right pulling out from junctions
- merge with fast moving traffic on a motorway
- worry about height restrictions (for lorry and bus)

--
Roland Perry

On Mon, 25 Nov 2019 11:51:28 +0000 (UTC), wrote:

On 24 Nov 2019 13:51:40 GMT
Marland wrote:
Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
wrote:
On Sat, 23 Nov 2019 23:22:23 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote:
NY wrote:
"Charles Ellson" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 23 Nov 2019 12:34:10 +0000 (UTC), wrote:
It took me 4 days to learn to drive a bus - test on the 5th. And that
involves
having to actually steer the vehicle through narrow streets and around
parked
vehicles, not something train drivers have to worry about. So I reckon
2
or 3
days to learn to push a lever backwards and forwards and get a feel for
braking under different loads (no different to an HGV) and a few more
weeks for
for learning signals, basic trouble shooting and some routes. A month
tops.

What sort of vehicles had you driven before then? Were you already used
to
driving anything larger than a standard Ford Cortina size of car?


But that is nowhere near as extreme as driving a bus which is wider still

and a lot longer. If you only had prior experience of driving a car, then

I'm impressed that you passed a bus test on day 5.

Neil also has an HGV licence — maybe he got that before driving the bus?


I did.



So you already had (a) experience of driving road vehicles (b) experience
of driving large road vehicles. 5 days to learn that the front wheels are
further back and that you have to look out for passengers?



Boltar may be a natural at vehicle handling which not all people are so the
physical driving was ticked off on the first day, the rest were spent
learning what the ringing sound was as the bus approached a stop.

You have to do bloody role play on the test - examiner pretends hes a
passenger - ding ding etc - pull up gently to at the correct stopping point
open/close doors, check Mrs Pensioner hasn't falled over in the aisle etc.
And miss the stopping point and that IIRC is a serious fault which = fail.

With a lorry test , as long as you can keep it on the road, don't clip the
scenery and don't hit anyone you'll probably pass though with the Class 1
test you have to reverse with a trailer which isn't easy. God knows how the
aussie drivers reverse a double or triple.

One at a time or just "go around"?

On Mon, 25 Nov 2019 15:27:24 -0000, "NY" wrote:



"Marland" wrote in message
...
Though during WW2 driving tests were
suspended for civilians as well and many people took advantage that a
driving permit or provisional licence issued could for a short time
afterwards be converted to a full licence without any further test.
Explains a lot of the dire driving standards encountered from that
generation over the following decades especially when they became elderly
know it alls ,at least those reaching those years now will normally have
passed a test at some time.

I didn't know that the civilian driving test was suspended during WWII -
presumably to free up examiners to do war work, and to remove all the
bureaucracy of administering the tests. However very few civilians would
have been able to get petrol unless they were in a reserved occupation.

Saving fuel was a significant reason IIRC.
snip

On Mon, 25 Nov 2019 16:37:37 +0000 (UTC), wrote:

On Mon, 25 Nov 2019 16:23:24 +0000
Bevan Price wrote:
On 25/11/2019 11:43, wrote:
On Sun, 24 Nov 2019 11:55:09 -0000 (UTC)
Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
wrote:
The test for a commercial vehicle is a LOT harder than a car. You don't get

away with many mistakes and the test enviroment is a lot more varied. Kev
and

Trace might scrape through driving their corsa a bit erratically on a car
test
but they'd be failed in minutes on an HGV or bus test.



And yet with the same breath you dismiss train driving as 'pulling levers'.
Surely you realise that the train driving assessment is just as strict, if
not more so?

I can imagine being a steam locomotive driver was a bugger of a job.
Physically
hard and you had to get the feel of the engine under different loads. I
suspect
driving a modern freight loco is still tricky (although not physically) as
you
could be just driving the loco itself or have 2000 tons behing you.

Driving a computer controlled EMU though that won't allow you to play silly
buggers with the throttle and brake, doesn't change much in behaviour from
empty to full load, doesn't have to be steered and when it goes wrong needs
a technician with a laptop to turn up anyway? Don't tell me thats
particularly
hard.

Seems to me the only hard part of being a modern EMU driver is the shift work

aspect of the job, other than that - piece of ****.


Nonsense. I have never driven a real train, but I was once allowed to
drive a dmu simulator. The most difficult part was knowing when / where
to apply the brakes for checks or station stops. And that involved just
one check and one (simulated) station.

So? A bit of practice and no doubt it becomes 2nd nature.

Dependent on the extent of their route knowledge, drivers may need to
know the locations of dozens of stations, numerous signals and speed
restrictions - at daylight - in good or bad visibility, or at night -
and then need to be able to judge the best places to apply brakes -
often on several types of unit - and in all sorts of weather conditions.
In addition, they need to be prepared for short term temporary speed limits.

And thats different to the experience of driving a road vehicle how exactly?

You can't swerve out of trouble if you get it wrong.

On 25/11/2019 18:45, Charles Ellson wrote:
On Mon, 25 Nov 2019 15:27:24 -0000, "NY" wrote:



"Marland" wrote in message
...
Though during WW2 driving tests were
suspended for civilians as well and many people took advantage that a
driving permit or provisional licence issued could for a short time
afterwards be converted to a full licence without any further test.
Explains a lot of the dire driving standards encountered from that
generation over the following decades especially when they became elderly
know it alls ,at least those reaching those years now will normally have
passed a test at some time.

I didn't know that the civilian driving test was suspended during WWII -
presumably to free up examiners to do war work, and to remove all the
bureaucracy of administering the tests. However very few civilians would
have been able to get petrol unless they were in a reserved occupation.

Saving fuel was a significant reason IIRC.
snip


Do not know about military / civilian licences, but the idea that
driving tests were stopped during the war is correct.
https://www.gov.uk/government/public...e-driving-test

--
Colin

wrote:


With a lorry test , as long as you can keep it on the road, don't clip the
scenery and don't hit anyone you'll probably pass though with the Class 1
test you have to reverse with a trailer which isn't easy. God knows how the
aussie drivers reverse a double or triple.


I strongly suspect that they don’t reverse them because it’s got to be near
enough impossible, surely?


Anna Noyd-Dryver