[Marland]

wrote:
On 15 Jan 2020 20:17:18 GMT
Marland wrote:

I wonder if it was Twickenham I saw some tram lines on my last London
Trolleybus ride.
My Grandad took me out for a last day of rides on the Trolleys just before
they ceased and we went to the end of the route 667 from Chiswick to

I do sometimes wonder what - if anything - was going through the minds of
the people who authorised the destruction of tram and trolleybus systems
around the UK back then to replace them with diesel buses that in those days
were utterly filthy with thick blue-grey and even black smoke coming out of
the exhaust being the norm. I can't help thinking some brown envelopes were
involved at some point.




There were several factors that intermingled and this far away from the
events the debate probably cannot fully reach a conclusion as those who
took the decisions have long died,the initial moves starting in the 1930’s.
Many tram systems were worn out by then and the capital cost of replacing
rails was just too much,
the bigger places that could afford too sometimes decided that the power
distribution network still had some life so opted for trolleybuses but
many smaller towns went to the Motor bus.
WW2 altered things considerably, it actually prolonged the life of some
tram routes that should have ceased including London the Trolleybus
conversion being interrupted.
By the time that was over smaller diesel engines were available that were a
better proposition than the older 1930’s versions and so the programme was
never restarted.
Post war building and expansion of towns did not help either together with
extensive road remodelling
making it difficult to to accommodate trams or trolleys with their
infrastructure.
Another factor was the alterations to the power supply industry as councils
lost control of power stations that had originated to provide power for the
tramway but now they had to pay the nationalised
electricity boards just like everyone else.
A few places that looked like they would have kept trolleybuses came
across the problem that as there were now only a handful of them the
manufactures no longer made them or if they did they were
going to be very expensive compared to motor bus chassis coming of
production lines in quantity for here and export. A glut of serviceable
vehicles went from closed systems to others which filled in some gaps but
did nothing to encourage a manufacturer to stay in such a small market.

It was quite hostile environment for electric traction in city streets.
It would have taken something from central government to make the
conditions more favourable
such as cheaper electric . Brown envelopes probably were not needed, the
whole nation was turning petrolhead and the Motor industry had more
potential to export IC engined vehicles than electric
and at the time the UK badly needed foreign earnings from manufacturing
which means dirt.
It is only in recent times that we have got foreign earnings from financial
services etc so have the luxury of keeping our hands clean and the heavy
pollution in China ,India etc.



GH

[[email protected]]

On 16 Jan 2020 11:05:52 GMT
Marland wrote:
wrote:
On 15 Jan 2020 20:17:18 GMT
Marland wrote:

I wonder if it was Twickenham I saw some tram lines on my last London
Trolleybus ride.
My Grandad took me out for a last day of rides on the Trolleys just before
they ceased and we went to the end of the route 667 from Chiswick to

I do sometimes wonder what - if anything - was going through the minds of
the people who authorised the destruction of tram and trolleybus systems
around the UK back then to replace them with diesel buses that in those days
were utterly filthy with thick blue-grey and even black smoke coming out of
the exhaust being the norm. I can't help thinking some brown envelopes were
involved at some point.




There were several factors that intermingled and this far away from the

And they all sound plausible - but the same could equally be said about
germany or eastern europe after WW2 but in general the systems there were
kept and expanded.

[Robin[_6_]]

On 16/01/2020 11:43, wrote:
On 16 Jan 2020 11:05:52 GMT
Marland wrote:
wrote:
On 15 Jan 2020 20:17:18 GMT
Marland wrote:

I wonder if it was Twickenham I saw some tram lines on my last London
Trolleybus ride.
My Grandad took me out for a last day of rides on the Trolleys just before
they ceased and we went to the end of the route 667 from Chiswick to

I do sometimes wonder what - if anything - was going through the minds of
the people who authorised the destruction of tram and trolleybus systems
around the UK back then to replace them with diesel buses that in those days
were utterly filthy with thick blue-grey and even black smoke coming out of
the exhaust being the norm. I can't help thinking some brown envelopes were
involved at some point.




There were several factors that intermingled and this far away from the

And they all sound plausible - but the same could equally be said about
germany or eastern europe after WW2 but in general the systems there were
kept and expanded.


Many cities in France removed their trams after WW2. Some of them have
reinstated them since but it was a lot easier to do so with wide
boulevards. London is mostly different.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

[Bryan Morris]

In message , Robin
writes
On 16/01/2020 11:43, wrote:
On 16 Jan 2020 11:05:52 GMT
Marland wrote:
wrote:
On 15 Jan 2020 20:17:18 GMT
Marland wrote:

I wonder if it was Twickenham I saw some tram lines on my last London
Trolleybus ride.
My Grandad took me out for a last day of rides on the Trolleys just before
they ceased and we went to the end of the route 667 from Chiswick to

I do sometimes wonder what - if anything - was going through the minds of
the people who authorised the destruction of tram and trolleybus systems
around the UK back then to replace them with diesel buses that in
those days
were utterly filthy with thick blue-grey and even black smoke coming out of
the exhaust being the norm. I can't help thinking some brown envelopes were
involved at some point.




There were several factors that intermingled and this far away from the
And they all sound plausible - but the same could equally be said
about
germany or eastern europe after WW2 but in general the systems there were
kept and expanded.


Many cities in France removed their trams after WW2. Some of them have
reinstated them since but it was a lot easier to do so with wide
boulevards. London is mostly different.

Problem with trams/trolley busses is they can't overtake each other and
go at the speed of the one in front. With narrow streets they cause
congestion.

We used to have a trolley bus route outside our flat, there was a
junction so the conductor had to get out to pull a chain switching the
poles in a form of overhead points. Quite often then the poles became
detached from the line and then they had to stop again whilst the
conductor pulled a long pole from underneath the bus to fix the overhead
poles to the wires again, with a build up of traffic behind. Then if the
trolley bus broke down they could only travel a few yards on a battery
so again great build up behind (and no room on a narrow road for other
busses to pass without themselves getting detached from the wires.
No trolley busses in Central London as the wires were unsightly.

If roads were wider and straighter OK but London in particular was not
built with trolley busses in mind
--
Bryan Morris

[Recliner[_4_]]

On Thu, 16 Jan 2020 19:52:13 +0000, Bryan Morris
wrote:

In message , Robin
writes
On 16/01/2020 11:43, wrote:
On 16 Jan 2020 11:05:52 GMT
Marland wrote:
wrote:
On 15 Jan 2020 20:17:18 GMT
Marland wrote:

I wonder if it was Twickenham I saw some tram lines on my last London
Trolleybus ride.
My Grandad took me out for a last day of rides on the Trolleys just before
they ceased and we went to the end of the route 667 from Chiswick to

I do sometimes wonder what - if anything - was going through the minds of
the people who authorised the destruction of tram and trolleybus systems
around the UK back then to replace them with diesel buses that in
those days
were utterly filthy with thick blue-grey and even black smoke coming out of
the exhaust being the norm. I can't help thinking some brown envelopes were
involved at some point.




There were several factors that intermingled and this far away from the
And they all sound plausible - but the same could equally be said
about
germany or eastern europe after WW2 but in general the systems there were
kept and expanded.


Many cities in France removed their trams after WW2. Some of them have
reinstated them since but it was a lot easier to do so with wide
boulevards. London is mostly different.

Problem with trams/trolley busses is they can't overtake each other and
go at the speed of the one in front. With narrow streets they cause
congestion.

We used to have a trolley bus route outside our flat, there was a
junction so the conductor had to get out to pull a chain switching the
poles in a form of overhead points.

You might be interested in how contemporary trams switch routes with
points in the overhead wires:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/reclin...57657326035738

[Ian Clifton]

Recliner writes:

On Thu, 16 Jan 2020 19:52:13 +0000, Bryan Morris
wrote:

In message , Robin
writes
On 16/01/2020 11:43, wrote:
On 16 Jan 2020 11:05:52 GMT
Marland wrote:
wrote:
On 15 Jan 2020 20:17:18 GMT
Marland wrote:

I wonder if it was Twickenham I saw some tram lines on my last London
Trolleybus ride.
My Grandad took me out for a last day of rides on the Trolleys
just before
they ceased and we went to the end of the route 667 from Chiswick to

I do sometimes wonder what - if anything - was going through the minds of
the people who authorised the destruction of tram and trolleybus systems
around the UK back then to replace them with diesel buses that in
those days
were utterly filthy with thick blue-grey and even black smoke
coming out of
the exhaust being the norm. I can't help thinking some brown
envelopes were
involved at some point.




There were several factors that intermingled and this far away from the
And they all sound plausible - but the same could equally be said
about
germany or eastern europe after WW2 but in general the systems there were
kept and expanded.


Many cities in France removed their trams after WW2. Some of them have
reinstated them since but it was a lot easier to do so with wide
boulevards. London is mostly different.

Problem with trams/trolley busses is they can't overtake each other and
go at the speed of the one in front. With narrow streets they cause
congestion.

We used to have a trolley bus route outside our flat, there was a
junction so the conductor had to get out to pull a chain switching the
poles in a form of overhead points.

You might be interested in how contemporary trams switch routes with
points in the overhead wires:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/reclin...57657326035738

The trams seem to have the same type of pick�up as the trolley buses. Is
it possible to combine pantograph pick�ups with trolley buses? I’m just
trying to visualise it, the two cable systems would have to be at
slightly different levels, I suppose.
--
Ian â—Ž

[[email protected]]

On Fri, 17 Jan 2020 14:58:45 +0000
Ian Clifton wrote:
Recliner writes:

On Thu, 16 Jan 2020 19:52:13 +0000, Bryan Morris
wrote:

In message , Robin
writes
On 16/01/2020 11:43, wrote:
On 16 Jan 2020 11:05:52 GMT
Marland wrote:
wrote:
On 15 Jan 2020 20:17:18 GMT
Marland wrote:

I wonder if it was Twickenham I saw some tram lines on my last London
Trolleybus ride.
My Grandad took me out for a last day of rides on the Trolleys
just before
they ceased and we went to the end of the route 667 from Chiswick to

I do sometimes wonder what - if anything - was going through the minds
of
the people who authorised the destruction of tram and trolleybus systems

around the UK back then to replace them with diesel buses that in
those days
were utterly filthy with thick blue-grey and even black smoke
coming out of
the exhaust being the norm. I can't help thinking some brown
envelopes were
involved at some point.




There were several factors that intermingled and this far away from the
And they all sound plausible - but the same could equally be said
about
germany or eastern europe after WW2 but in general the systems there were
kept and expanded.


Many cities in France removed their trams after WW2. Some of them have
reinstated them since but it was a lot easier to do so with wide
boulevards. London is mostly different.

Problem with trams/trolley busses is they can't overtake each other and
go at the speed of the one in front. With narrow streets they cause
congestion.

We used to have a trolley bus route outside our flat, there was a
junction so the conductor had to get out to pull a chain switching the
poles in a form of overhead points.

You might be interested in how contemporary trams switch routes with
points in the overhead wires:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/reclin...57657326035738

The trams seem to have the same type of pick�up as the trolley buses. Is
it possible to combine pantograph pick�ups with trolley buses? I’m just
trying to visualise it, the two cable systems would have to be at
slightly different levels, I suppose.

Seimens tried something like that a few years back but nothing seems to have
come of it unfortunately. It requires electronic guidance but these days thats
not a problem. I imagine it makes the overhead an order of magnitude simpler
to build and maintain.

https://new.siemens.com/global/en/pr.../electromobili
ty/ehighway.html

[Peter Able[_2_]]

On 15/01/2020 20:17, Marland wrote:
Peter Able wrote:
On 11/01/2020 17:51, Marland wrote:
MissRiaElaine wrote:

It's all academic as far as I'm concerned. I refuse to travel on these




We all have our favourite eras often driven by emotion rather than
practical considerations.
Although I was only small when it took place it took me a long time to
like the Routemaster as they had displaced the Trolleybuses I found
fascinating , to me they were just another motorbus though later I got to
learn about their construction being quite advanced.



Ironically, long after the wires came down in Twickenham and, yes, they
were taken down very quickly, the tram rails used to regularly reappear
every summer when the diaphanously thin tar laid over them near
Twickenham Junction used to peel off.

I wonder if it was Twickenham I saw some tram lines on my last London
Trolleybus ride.
My Grandad took me out for a last day of rides on the Trolleys just before
they ceased and we went to the end of the route 667 from Chiswick to
Hampton Court. Normally we never went outwards that our journeys always
being inwards so had not seen any remaining tram lines in the road before.
Though at that time the former Tram depot in between Chiswick and
Hammersmith at that time still had them visible as far as the gate. I think
they were still there when the fleet assigned to BEA link bus duties were
located there a bit later.


As a conductor at Fulwell Garage around 1970, I can state that the RMs
were far more popular with my colleagues than the RT/Regents. The latter
were not that well sprung by then whereas the conductor's position in
the RMs were so much better ride-wise - plus that that position was

I always forget the RT was part of the AEC line, I suppose I was was mainly
thinking about the later Regent Vs which to a pure layman did not look too
dissimilar at first glance especially rear entrance open platform ones
operated by some operators like Southampton.

GH


I don't remember a garage/depot between Chiswick and Hammersmith. Must
have gone before my time. Chiswick Works had a code, CS, but only for
non-passenger duties. I remember being out on a training run on an RT
from CS, along with an instructor and about 20 trainee conductors.
Perhaps foolishly, the driver pulled up at a stop and an old, stooped,
"geezer" mounted the platform. Once firmly on-board he looked up
expecting, I guess, to see 20 passengers and one conductor. The fact
that it was the exact reverse of his expectations left him - well, you
can imagine (if not - just how a live cod-fish looks)!! The instructor
carefully shepherded him back onto the pavement.

The 267 or "London" - the RM successor to the 667 was the real
money-maker for FW. The run out to Hampton Court carried a lot of
tourists during the summer, and one was always pestered by Americans
asking "Is that Hampton Court?". Even the little Swiss-looking
Thames-side boat-house was fair game to their expectations. You can
imagine the raucus "Geeeeee", as we swung around the roundabout!

PA

[Peter Able[_2_]]

On 16/01/2020 19:52, Bryan Morris wrote:
Problem with trams/trolley busses is they can't overtake each other and
go at the speed of the one in front. With narrow streets they cause
congestion.

We used to have a trolley bus route outside our flat, there was a
junction so the conductor had to get out to pull a chain switching the
poles in a form of overhead points. Quite often then the poles became
detached from the line and then they had to stop again whilst the
conductor pulled a long pole from underneath the bus to fix the overhead
poles to the wires again, with a build up of traffic behind. Then if the
trolley bus broke down they could only travel a few yards on a battery
so again great build up behind (and no room on a narrow road for other
busses to pass without themselves getting detached from the wires.
No trolley busses in Central London as the wires were unsightly.

If roads were wider and straighter OK but London in particular was not
built with trolley busses in mind.

Wasn't a problem! Where routes 667 and 657(?) merged - at Busch Corner,
Isleworth - the drivers used to hold back intentionally so that the
other garage's trolleybus took the strain ALL the way along the Chiswick
High Road!

I guess that the same thing happened with trams - and the habit carried
through to the age of Routemasters UNTIL - in 1971, I think - the bonus
system switched from garage-based to crew-based. In an instant the
drivers were suddenly Stirling Mosses when heading for Busch Corner!

BTW - and this comment is only as good as 50 years memory allows - I
seem to recall that the ex-trolley drivers at FW said that they switched
wires by biasing the trolleys as they approached the bifurcation.

PA

[Bryan Morris]

In message , Recliner
writes
On Thu, 16 Jan 2020 19:52:13 +0000, Bryan Morris
wrote:

In message , Robin
writes
On 16/01/2020 11:43, wrote:
On 16 Jan 2020 11:05:52 GMT
Marland wrote:
wrote:
On 15 Jan 2020 20:17:18 GMT
Marland wrote:

I wonder if it was Twickenham I saw some tram lines on my last London
Trolleybus ride.
My Grandad took me out for a last day of rides on the Trolleys
just before
they ceased and we went to the end of the route 667 from Chiswick to

I do sometimes wonder what - if anything - was going through the minds of
the people who authorised the destruction of tram and trolleybus systems
around the UK back then to replace them with diesel buses that in
those days
were utterly filthy with thick blue-grey and even black smoke
coming out of
the exhaust being the norm. I can't help thinking some brown
envelopes were
involved at some point.




There were several factors that intermingled and this far away from the
And they all sound plausible - but the same could equally be said
about
germany or eastern europe after WW2 but in general the systems there were
kept and expanded.


Many cities in France removed their trams after WW2. Some of them have
reinstated them since but it was a lot easier to do so with wide
boulevards. London is mostly different.

Problem with trams/trolley busses is they can't overtake each other and
go at the speed of the one in front. With narrow streets they cause
congestion.

We used to have a trolley bus route outside our flat, there was a
junction so the conductor had to get out to pull a chain switching the
poles in a form of overhead points.

You might be interested in how contemporary trams switch routes with
points in the overhead wires:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/reclin...57657326035738


From memory the default was straight ahead, if the bus had to use the
outside pair of wires the conductor got off, pulled this chain down and
held it, the driver then drove the bus forward till it was on the
outside pair when the conductor let go of the chain, ran after the bus
and (I think) thumped the back so the driver knew he was back on board.
I can't see from the photos how the points work or who (if anyone)
operates them.
I also recall at, I think Shoreditch, where the buses had to make a
right hand turn , more often than not, the trolley poles flew off the
wires.

Then of course trolleybuses didn't cross the Thames.
--
Bryan Morris