wrote:
On Fri, 9 Apr 2021 11:37:02 -0000 (UTC)
Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
It needs a handful of extra unbranded spare vehicles across a fleet, which
was obviously considered and costed when the first few companies began to
introduce it. It's obviously seen as a worthwhile expenditure for the
increased visual recognition of the buses and routes, not just among
passengers but among potential passengers, including those who don't
realise they're potential passengers yet.

I can't imagine too many people see a bus and think "Ooh, nice branding, I
must travel on it sometime!". Though I will grant you if its one of the ones
that has the route map down the side there may be some people who didn't
realise where it went and may use it in future.


I'm thinking of people who regularly drive a route and see lots of buses,
but without paying enough attention to the route/destination displayed on
them to realise that they're the same route; who may see the consistency of
route branding and suddenly realise that their journey is possible by bus
having never considered it before.

As a real-world example; despite having a higher than average interest in
buses, I didn't realise there was a bus 2 or 3 times an hour between
Bristol and Wells, until I started using a garage part way along the route;
the "Mendip Explorer" buses are very smart
https://www.somersetlive.co.uk/news/somerset-news/mendip-bus-route-named-one-1624469
and I can imagine someone who drives that route regularly in a car, seeing
the consistently branded buses and making a connection; then on a day when
their car is unavailable (in for service, or perhaps their partner is using
it) and they still want to make the journey, suddenly the bus is in their
mind as an option, where without the branding it may not have been.


Anna Noyd-Dryver

In message , at 08:53:03 on Sat, 10 Apr
2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver remarked:

It needs a handful of extra unbranded spare vehicles across a fleet, which
was obviously considered and costed when the first few companies began to
introduce it. It's obviously seen as a worthwhile expenditure for the
increased visual recognition of the buses and routes, not just among
passengers but among potential passengers, including those who don't
realise they're potential passengers yet.

I can't imagine too many people see a bus and think "Ooh, nice branding, I
must travel on it sometime!". Though I will grant you if its one of the ones
that has the route map down the side there may be some people who didn't
realise where it went and may use it in future.

I'm thinking of people who regularly drive a route and see lots of buses,
but without paying enough attention to the route/destination displayed on
them to realise that they're the same route; who may see the consistency of
route branding and suddenly realise that their journey is possible by bus
having never considered it before.

Yesterday, many of the Stagecoach Cambridge-Ely buses were a vivid shade
of turquoise that I don't remember seeing before, and completely without
branding.
--
Roland Perry

wrote:
On Fri, 9 Apr 2021 14:40:42 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote:
wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if induction charging points end up being spread
around the countryside and perhaps some cities for electric buses in the
future, because with the best will in the world, battery tech for large
vehicles isn't up to the job yet on the longer distance routes.

It's claimed to have a 300km range, more than enough to run all day on
urban routes. It gets a four hour overnight charge in Willesden bus garage.

BYD designed and developed the 10.2m long vehicles to TfL specifications
which feature air conditioning, seats for 54 passengers and space for 27
standing passengers.

https://www.metroline.co.uk/blog/pro...mission-electr
ic-double-decker

I suspect those ranges are just as optimistic as electric car ones.


Unfortunately that's the fault of the officially mandated tests, not the
manufacturers. The American official range figures tend to be much more
accurate.

You can
probably halve it in slow traffic

Actually IMX that's when EVs are at their most efficient.

in winter when regen braking is ineffective
and the heating is on full blast.


I will admit that during the recent spell of temperatures around 2°C to
-2°C, the range of my car was around half the predicted range, but another
factor played into that too - my daily commute ~halved to four miles,
meaning that the heating was on for the whole journey. On the days I
remembered to pre-heat the car, the energy consumption was much better (and
of course the windscreen was ready-defrosted!). Previously in such low
temperatures I've been driving further, and the impact of the low outside
temperature is much less noticeable.

Regardless, its pathetic the way the Chinese have just leapfrogged all the
european bus manufacturers who appear to have been caught with their pants
down.

And I can't
imagine National Express have done much flicking through electric bus
brochures yet.

No, not yet. They may have hydrogen-powered buses before battery electric
ones.

Hydrogen power is an enviromental dead end. I wish politicians would realise.


Surely that depends how the hydrogen is generated?


Anna Noyd-Dryver

On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 11:04:28 -0000 (UTC)
Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
wrote:
You can
probably halve it in slow traffic

Actually IMX that's when EVs are at their most efficient.

Most efficient *compared to combustion engines*. But if you drove an EV
down a road at a constant 30mph then drove it down the same road stopping
and starting every 100 metres or less the latter would waste far more power.

Hydrogen power is an enviromental dead end. I wish politicians would realise.



Surely that depends how the hydrogen is generated?

Well blue hydrogen is a non starter, but even green hydrogen is far less
efficient in wind turbine to wheel energy terms taking in every stage + the
vehicle itself than simply charging up a battery. Something like 50% for a
battery EV vs 30% for green H2 I remember reading. The only single advantage
H2 has over batteries is recharge time, other than that its hopeless.

wrote:
On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 11:04:28 -0000 (UTC)
Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
wrote:
You can
probably halve it in slow traffic

Actually IMX that's when EVs are at their most efficient.

Most efficient *compared to combustion engines*. But if you drove an EV
down a road at a constant 30mph then drove it down the same road stopping
and starting every 100 metres or less the latter would waste far more power.

Hydrogen power is an enviromental dead end. I wish politicians would realise.



Surely that depends how the hydrogen is generated?

Well blue hydrogen is a non starter, but even green hydrogen is far less
efficient in wind turbine to wheel energy terms taking in every stage + the
vehicle itself than simply charging up a battery. Something like 50% for a
battery EV vs 30% for green H2 I remember reading. The only single advantage
H2 has over batteries is recharge time, other than that its hopeless.

That’s a not inconsiderable advantage!

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as
Spit the dummy to reply

wrote:
On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 11:04:28 -0000 (UTC)
Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
wrote:
You can
probably halve it in slow traffic

Actually IMX that's when EVs are at their most efficient.

Most efficient *compared to combustion engines*. But if you drove an EV
down a road at a constant 30mph then drove it down the same road stopping
and starting every 100 metres or less the latter would waste far more power.

Hydrogen power is an enviromental dead end. I wish politicians would realise.



Surely that depends how the hydrogen is generated?

Well blue hydrogen is a non starter, but even green hydrogen is far less
efficient in wind turbine to wheel energy terms taking in every stage + the
vehicle itself than simply charging up a battery. Something like 50% for a
battery EV vs 30% for green H2 I remember reading. The only single advantage
H2 has over batteries is recharge time, other than that its hopeless.



Recharge time and capacity. It has a much higher energy density than
current and projected future batteries, unless there's a big step change
(possible at some stage, but not imminent). .

On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 15:16:50 -0000 (UTC)
Sam Wilson wrote:
wrote:
H2 has over batteries is recharge time, other than that its hopeless.

That’s a not inconsiderable advantage!

It is, but otoh once - one hopes - street recharging via some sort of
infrastructure built into street lights or similar for those who don't have
driveways becomes the norm in a decade or 2, that advantage will become
redundant except for the very few people who need to do ultra long journeys
without much in the way of stopping.

The main issue with EVs isn't the battery vs H2 argument , its where the power
is going to come from to power them all in the first place because right now
the generating capacity simply isn't there and short termist politicians
don't seem to be interested in providing it, merely exchanging like for like
with coal and gas gen replaced by wind farms so they can polish their green
halos.

On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 15:31:50 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote:
wrote:
On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 11:04:28 -0000 (UTC)
Well blue hydrogen is a non starter, but even green hydrogen is far less
efficient in wind turbine to wheel energy terms taking in every stage + the
vehicle itself than simply charging up a battery. Something like 50% for a
battery EV vs 30% for green H2 I remember reading. The only single advantage
H2 has over batteries is recharge time, other than that its hopeless.



Recharge time and capacity. It has a much higher energy density than
current and projected future batteries, unless there's a big step change
(possible at some stage, but not imminent). .

That matters for long distance lorries and buses for whom suitable batteries
would be a ridiculous size, but for cars its not even an issue right now,
never mind as technology advances. Yes, they're maybe half a ton heavier
than an equivalent ICE car at most, but the vehicle size is the same, if
not a bit smaller.

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 11:44:51 on Thu, 8 Apr 2021,
Basil Jet remarked:

Anglia have liveried trains for the Bittern line, East Suffolk line
etc, but I've only ever seen them on the wrong lines!

Odd you should mention that... this morning one of the Fen Line GN
trains was liveried "Gatwick Express". Which more different to the plain
livery than the straying GA Stansted Express ones (which are at least
the correct side of the river).

Apparently six GatEx 387s have been loaned to GN as temporary 365
replacements. In the medium term, the GA 379s or the cw2c 387s are the more
likely replacements.

In message , at 15:32:14 on Sat, 10 Apr
2021, remarked:
On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 15:16:50 -0000 (UTC)
Sam Wilson wrote:
wrote:
H2 has over batteries is recharge time, other than that its hopeless.

That’s a not inconsiderable advantage!

It is, but otoh once - one hopes - street recharging via some sort of
infrastructure built into street lights or similar for those who don't have
driveways becomes the norm in a decade or 2, that advantage will become
redundant except for the very few people who need to do ultra long journeys
without much in the way of stopping.

The main issue with EVs isn't the battery vs H2 argument , its where the power
is going to come from to power them all in the first place because right now
the generating capacity simply isn't there

And nor of course is there much more than 13A ring main linking up the
streetlights in any one street.

and short termist politicians
don't seem to be interested in providing it, merely exchanging like for like
with coal and gas gen replaced by wind farms so they can polish their green
halos.


--
Roland Perry