Recliner wrote:
Marland wrote:



The reasonably practical measure taken at Old Dalby is presumably not
having staff walking at track level without an isolation.

Looking at e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9k7XvFH3pE there
isn't a lot of DC track out in the open away from the fenced off
"depot" and there is about 200y of shielding at the far end of the DC
track (about 5:12) which is rather more than usually seen at
transition points.


We will have to disagree about what “isn’t a lot is “ .

Quoting from this website.

http://www.old-dalby.com/operation.htm

“This line is now electrified with 750v DC conductor rails for
approximately 3 miles and the SSL trains are based in the compound during
the daily testing. The yard sidings at the former control centre have also
been equipped. Power for the DC line is routed from the sub-station at
Asfordby. All other functions are now conducted from the new complex at
Asfordby, and the SSL trains travel to and from Asfordby each day, hauled
by a diesel locomotive.�

I wonder if the 3rd/4th rails are only powered up when a DC train that
needs them is under test?


It would make sense, and unlike a regular line there will be little need
for staff to be out and about
close to the rails when trains are running which as someone commented
above would be a practical measure that satisfies the regulations, also
avoids them getting run over.

GH

In message , at 11:52:30 on Thu, 15 Apr
2021, remarked:
On Thu, 15 Apr 2021 10:17:50 +0100
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:07:24 on Thu, 15 Apr
2021, remarked:
On 15 Apr 2021 08:32:31 GMT
Marland wrote:
Charles Ellson wrote:
Looking at e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9k7XvFH3pE there
isn't a lot of DC track out in the open away from the fenced off
"depot" and there is about 200y of shielding at the far end of the DC
track (about 5:12) which is rather more than usually seen at
transition points.


We will have to disagree about what “isn’t a lot is “ .

Quoting from this website.

http://www.old-dalby.com/operation.htm

“This line is now electrified with 750v DC conductor rails for
approximately 3 miles and the SSL trains are based in the compound during
the daily testing. The yard sidings at the former control centre have also
been equipped. Power for the DC line is routed from the sub-station at
Asfordby. All other functions are now conducted from the new complex at
Asfordby, and the SSL trains travel to and from Asfordby each day, hauled
by a diesel locomotive.�

Given we have Old Dalby in the UK why do so many new trains do their testing
in the Czech Republic these days? Perhaps there's an argument for one track
to be returned to being a regular railway linking Melton Mowbray and
Nottingham?

The stretch from the north end of the Old Dalby line, to Central
Nottingham, has been obliterated by various development.

Ah ok. I thought there was a tunnel beyond the buffer stops at the end.
Hard to tell in google.

There's a residential development of a couple of dozen houses (on the
track and the site of Edwalton Station), you've then got a school
carpark (the least of the problems) and a deep cutting that's been
filled in. After that it's a nature trail which ends up on an
embankment. At the end of the embankment the bridges over Melton Road
and Rectory Road are demolished and there's housing most of the way to
Bridgford Road (and another demolished bridge).

A short nature trail along part of Bridge Field Park, then more housing
and industrial (including another ex-bridge over Radcliffe Rd) to Lady
Bay Bridge (the road) and the bridge itself (also a road). North of the
river more industrial development, the biggest being the City's waste
incinerator.
--
Roland Perry

On Thu, 15 Apr 2021 11:52:30 +0000, MrSpook_tH83opdv wrote:
On Thu, 15 Apr 2021 10:17:50 +0100 Roland Perry
wrote:
In message , at 09:07:24 on Thu, 15 Apr
2021, remarked:
Given we have Old Dalby in the UK why do so many new trains do their
testing in the Czech Republic these days? Perhaps there's an argument
for one track to be returned to being a regular railway linking Melton
Mowbray and Nottingham?

The stretch from the north end of the Old Dalby line, to Central
Nottingham, has been obliterated by various development.

Ah ok. I thought there was a tunnel beyond the buffer stops at the end.
Hard to tell in google.

The main issue is that Lady Bay Bridge has been converted to road use, so
there's no way to get the line into Nottingham station even if you could
clear the route. And converting the bridge back isn't going to happen, as
both bridges in West Bridgford are very busy roads.

Mike

On Thu, 15 Apr 2021 06:30:40 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
wrote:

Charles Ellson wrote:
On Thu, 15 Apr 2021 01:09:01 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
wrote:

Charles Ellson wrote:
On 14 Apr 2021 22:18:29 GMT, Marland
wrote:

James Heaton wrote:

"Anna Noyd-Dryver" wrote in message
...
MB wrote:
On 11/04/2021 11:56, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
Hummer have already built 2 large battery SUVs. And H2 trains makes no
bloody sense whatsoever - just electric the damn lines and if its too
expensive for overhead then they should recind that moronic rule about
no more 3rd rail and lay that instead.


Health and Safety at Work Act, isn't it?


I would not have expected the H&S at Work Act to go into detail like
that.


About having exposed electro conductors at floor level?

Apparently it's something specific in electrical regulations too.

Either way, the point is that it's about staff safety not about
trespassers, as often claimed.

Electricity at Work Regulations 1989

It is mainly focused on staff safety.

Realistically the only way we're ever going to get more 3rd rail, is with
fully protected contact like the DLR - which is incompatible with existing
installations on the southern/mersey.

James



There must be some mechanism to give dispensation in some circumstances

Other wise laying down the conductor rails on the Old Dalby test track to
test the LU S Stock
could not have occurred . A lot of it on there is protected by side
protection boards but quite a lot of pictures show a lot is not,

Regulation 7 gives you the choice of insulating or taking other
precautions "so far is reasonably practicable". Old Dalby doesn't have
passengers to worry about so precautions probably rely more on
suitable fencing and appropriate training of onsite staff. There is
minimal shielding of conductor rails on LU anyway, even on new work.
snip


The reasonably practical measure taken at Old Dalby is presumably not
having staff walking at track level without an isolation.

Looking at e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9k7XvFH3pE there
isn't a lot of DC track out in the open away from the fenced off
"depot" and there is about 200y of shielding at the far end of the DC
track (about 5:12) which is rather more than usually seen at
transition points.


Given the necessity for short sections with regular feeds, couldn’t you
arrange with modern power electronics to keep the power switched off unless
there was a train in section?

A more practical question though - what is the incidence of electrocution
on the third rail network vs the overhead system?

Humans, dogs or badgers?

On 15 Apr 2021 08:32:31 GMT, Marland
wrote:

Charles Ellson wrote:
On Thu, 15 Apr 2021 01:09:01 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
wrote:

Charles Ellson wrote:
On 14 Apr 2021 22:18:29 GMT, Marland
wrote:

James Heaton wrote:

"Anna Noyd-Dryver" wrote in message
...
MB wrote:
On 11/04/2021 11:56, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
Hummer have already built 2 large battery SUVs. And H2 trains makes no
bloody sense whatsoever - just electric the damn lines and if its too
expensive for overhead then they should recind that moronic rule about
no more 3rd rail and lay that instead.


Health and Safety at Work Act, isn't it?


I would not have expected the H&S at Work Act to go into detail like
that.


About having exposed electro conductors at floor level?

Apparently it's something specific in electrical regulations too.

Either way, the point is that it's about staff safety not about
trespassers, as often claimed.

Electricity at Work Regulations 1989

It is mainly focused on staff safety.

Realistically the only way we're ever going to get more 3rd rail, is with
fully protected contact like the DLR - which is incompatible with existing
installations on the southern/mersey.

James



There must be some mechanism to give dispensation in some circumstances

Other wise laying down the conductor rails on the Old Dalby test track to
test the LU S Stock
could not have occurred . A lot of it on there is protected by side
protection boards but quite a lot of pictures show a lot is not,

Regulation 7 gives you the choice of insulating or taking other
precautions "so far is reasonably practicable". Old Dalby doesn't have
passengers to worry about so precautions probably rely more on
suitable fencing and appropriate training of onsite staff. There is
minimal shielding of conductor rails on LU anyway, even on new work.
snip


The reasonably practical measure taken at Old Dalby is presumably not
having staff walking at track level without an isolation.

Looking at e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9k7XvFH3pE there
isn't a lot of DC track out in the open away from the fenced off
"depot" and there is about 200y of shielding at the far end of the DC
track (about 5:12) which is rather more than usually seen at
transition points.


We will have to disagree about what “isn’t a lot is “ .

Quoting from this website.

http://www.old-dalby.com/operation.htm

“This line is now electrified with 750v DC conductor rails for
approximately 3 miles and the SSL trains are based in the compound during
the daily testing. The yard sidings at the former control centre have also
been equipped. Power for the DC line is routed from the sub-station at
Asfordby. All other functions are now conducted from the new complex at
Asfordby, and the SSL trains travel to and from Asfordby each day, hauled
by a diesel locomotive.”

The DC electrification seems to be a minor proportion of the length of
track travelled in the video. The video is dated 2011 so it is
possible some more has been added since.

eCharles Ellson wrote:
On 15 Apr 2021 08:32:31 GMT, Marland

The reasonably practical measure taken at Old Dalby is presumably not
having staff walking at track level without an isolation.

Looking at e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9k7XvFH3pE there
isn't a lot of DC track out in the open away from the fenced off
"depot" and there is about 200y of shielding at the far end of the DC
track (about 5:12) which is rather more than usually seen at
transition points.


We will have to disagree about what “isn’t a lot is “ .

Quoting from this website.

http://www.old-dalby.com/operation.htm

“This line is now electrified with 750v DC conductor rails for
approximately 3 miles and the SSL trains are based in the compound during
the daily testing. The yard sidings at the former control centre have also
been equipped. Power for the DC line is routed from the sub-station at
Asfordby. All other functions are now conducted from the new complex at
Asfordby, and the SSL trains travel to and from Asfordby each day, hauled
by a diesel locomotive.”

The DC electrification seems to be a minor proportion of the length of
track travelled in the video. The video is dated 2011 so it is
possible some more has been added since.


There are more up to date ones which would have been a better choice such
as this one from the cab of an S stock train under test.

https://youtu.be/ZL8xZrY9SeU

GH

Marland wrote:
eCharles Ellson wrote:
On 15 Apr 2021 08:32:31 GMT, Marland

The reasonably practical measure taken at Old Dalby is presumably not
having staff walking at track level without an isolation.

Looking at e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9k7XvFH3pE there
isn't a lot of DC track out in the open away from the fenced off
"depot" and there is about 200y of shielding at the far end of the DC
track (about 5:12) which is rather more than usually seen at
transition points.


We will have to disagree about what “isn’t a lot is “ .

Quoting from this website.

http://www.old-dalby.com/operation.htm

“This line is now electrified with 750v DC conductor rails for
approximately 3 miles and the SSL trains are based in the compound during
the daily testing. The yard sidings at the former control centre have also
been equipped. Power for the DC line is routed from the sub-station at
Asfordby. All other functions are now conducted from the new complex at
Asfordby, and the SSL trains travel to and from Asfordby each day, hauled
by a diesel locomotive.”

The DC electrification seems to be a minor proportion of the length of
track travelled in the video. The video is dated 2011 so it is
possible some more has been added since.


There are more up to date ones which would have been a better choice such
as this one from the cab of an S stock train under test.

https://youtu.be/ZL8xZrY9SeU

Thanks, that was interesting. From the conversation, the 4th rail test
track is 4km long, and includes virtual stations and virtual tunnels. The
train has to do 500 miles (800km) of testing, so a 100 cycles.

On 14/04/2021 21:23, James Heaton wrote:

"Anna Noyd-Dryver" wrote in message
...
MB wrote:
On 11/04/2021 11:56, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
Hummer have already built 2 large battery SUVs. And H2 trains makes no
bloody sense whatsoever - just electric the damn lines and if its too
expensive for overhead then they should recind that moronic rule about
no more 3rd rail and lay that instead.


Health and Safety at Work Act, isn't it?


I would not have expected the H&S at Work Act to go into detail like
that.


About having exposed electro conductors at floor level?

Apparently it's something specific in electrical regulations too.

Either way, the point is that it's about staff safety not about
trespassers, as often claimed.

Electricity at Work Regulations 1989

It is mainly focused on staff safety.

Realistically the only way we're ever going to get more 3rd rail, is
with fully protected contact like the DLR - which is incompatible with
existing installations on the southern/mersey.

James



My point was that it is often written that something has to be done (or
can't be done) "because of the H&S Act" but it is more likely either in
specific regulations like the Electricity at Work Regulations or the
various regulations about railways. There might be a requirement for a
Risk Assessment which will refer to more specific regulations.

Recliner wrote:
Marland wrote:


There are more up to date ones which would have been a better choice such
as this one from the cab of an S stock train under test.

https://youtu.be/ZL8xZrY9SeU

Thanks, that was interesting. From the conversation, the 4th rail test
track is 4km long, and includes virtual stations and virtual tunnels. The
train has to do 500 miles (800km) of testing, so a 100 cycles.


One thing that strikes me from the various videos of the old Dalby test
route is that it is mainly straight. As more trains like the S stock get
constructed with full width connections between cars
or even articulations that could be an achilles heel.
The law of sod if you are testing something says it will be the bit that
wasn’t stressed that shows up an unexpected snag .

Obviously the S stock has been in service long enough now around the LU
system that they must have got it right in that case but there will be
other stock in the future.

I see plans for the Welsh based Global Centre For Rail Excellence were
recently published
and like the test tracks in the Czech Republic and Germany will have a
continuous circuit available.
so it could give Old Dalby competition .

https://nation.cymru/news/plans-subm...ence-in-wales/

GH

Marland wrote:
Recliner wrote:
Marland wrote:


There are more up to date ones which would have been a better choice such
as this one from the cab of an S stock train under test.

https://youtu.be/ZL8xZrY9SeU

Thanks, that was interesting. From the conversation, the 4th rail test
track is 4km long, and includes virtual stations and virtual tunnels. The
train has to do 500 miles (800km) of testing, so a 100 cycles.


One thing that strikes me from the various videos of the old Dalby test
route is that it is mainly straight. As more trains like the S stock get
constructed with full width connections between cars
or even articulations that could be an achilles heel.
The law of sod if you are testing something says it will be the bit that
wasn’t stressed that shows up an unexpected snag.

I know they have test rigs to repeatedly stress those connections to
destruction, with more violent movement in all directions than you'd want
to put a real train through.



Obviously the S stock has been in service long enough now around the LU
system that they must have got it right in that case but there will be
other stock in the future.

I assume Siemens has sorted out the connections for the new 24TS by now. Of
course, being articulated, those trains put the connections under much less
stress than the S stock does.


I see plans for the Welsh based Global Centre For Rail Excellence were
recently published
and like the test tracks in the Czech Republic and Germany will have a
continuous circuit available.
so it could give Old Dalby competition .

https://nation.cymru/news/plans-subm...ence-in-wales/


Like the Czech and German test tracks, that one is more for continuous
medium or high speed running, to build up the miles. Old Dalby seems to be
used more for early stage testing of new designs, but of course also has
its dedicated LU section that we saw in the video. The Welsh circuit is
responding to the need for a different type of UK test track.