Everything we know about traffic-calming is wrong
 

Velvet wrote:

All snipped.

....because you have no effective counter to any of it.

J Nugent, you clearly won't listen to reason

....by which you arrogantly mean I won't accept your arguments (all of which
have been easily shown to be unfounded).

[ ... ]

I will continue to drive that route at the prescribed limit, accepting
that while I might not see all the reasons for the limit being set as
it is, there may be reasons that I do not understand.

AAMOF, most of us will keep to the limit (certainly including me), but we
don't all necessarily share your touching belief in the good faith of the
government.


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Everything we know about traffic-calming is wrong
 

In article ,
says...
JNugent wrote:

The Chiswick section of M4 was designed and built to be
operated at no speed limit whatsoever - though it had the
national 70 limit imposed soon after opening.

You can't design a road for "no speed limit whatsoever". Britain's
motorways were generally designed for 70 mph, but it's obvious that the
first bend on the M4 going west was designed to a lower standard. I
thought the 50 mph limit on that stretch was imposed from first opening,
BICBW.


My understanding (based on dubious discussionswith policemen friends of
mine!) is that the motorway network in the uk is disigned for safe
travel within lanes upto 120mph. Greater speeds are safelypossible with
the full use of all carrigeways. This assumes good road conditions, and
competent drivers capable of accessing when it is safe to travel at
these speeds. This later point is why we have a maximum speed limit of
70mph on British roads.
--
..paul

If at first you don't succeed...
Skydiving is probably not the sport for you.

Everything we know about traffic-calming is wrong
 

In article ,
says...
"Just zis Guy, you know?" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 19:46:58 +0100, "Paul Weaver"
wrote in message
:

GErman Autobahns seem to throw that out of the window. Sure you can't
design
a road for "no speed whatsoever", but theres no need for a limit on many
roads. At least that's what the most populous country in Euroep seems to
think.

Have you checked the comparitive fatality figures? Last time I looked
the Autobahn was substantially more dangerous per mile travelled than
our motorways.

Much lower then the states, but a quick gogole doesnt reveal anything. As we
have one of the lowest fatality rates in the world it wouldn't surprise me
if Germany was higher. What if you compare Germany accident rates to Italy
or France though

Oh, and last time I checked they also had limits on the Autobahn.

Only in certain areas (which makes perfect sense to me, 100mph on the M5 as
it joins in M6 is probably not a great idea, 100mph on the M5 from Exeter up
to Bristol is generally fine)

Most of the system is limitless (for cars)

Oh, and last time I checked, their other roads do have speed limits.

Yes they do. Of course they have a decent autobahn system which means people
only travel in towns and on small roads when they are near their
destination. This of course reduces traffic in and arround towns, and
therfore accident rates.



you are Paul s***h and ICMFP
--
..paul

If at first you don't succeed...
Skydiving is probably not the sport for you.

Everything we know about traffic-calming is wrong
 

On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 23:36:30 +0100, "Paul Weaver"
wrote (more or less):

"Just zis Guy, you know?" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 19:46:58 +0100, "Paul Weaver"
wrote in message
:

GErman Autobahns seem to throw that out of the window. Sure you can't
design
a road for "no speed whatsoever", but theres no need for a limit on many
roads. At least that's what the most populous country in Euroep seems to
think.

Have you checked the comparitive fatality figures? Last time I looked
the Autobahn was substantially more dangerous per mile travelled than
our motorways.

Much lower then the states, but a quick gogole doesnt reveal anything. As we
have one of the lowest fatality rates in the world it wouldn't surprise me
if Germany was higher. What if you compare Germany accident rates to Italy
or France though

Oh, and last time I checked they also had limits on the Autobahn.

Only in certain areas

i.e. round about junctions...


(which makes perfect sense to me, 100mph on the M5 as
it joins in M6 is probably not a great idea, 100mph on the M5 from Exeter up
to Bristol is generally fine)

Most of the system is limitless (for cars)

But the Germans are now seriously discussing restricting all autobahn.


Oh, and last time I checked, their other roads do have speed limits.

Yes they do. Of course they have a decent autobahn system which means people
only travel in towns and on small roads when they are near their
destination. This of course reduces traffic in and arround towns, and
therfore accident rates.


--
Cheers,
Euan
Gawnsoft: http://www.gawnsoft.co.sr
Symbian/Epoc wiki: http://html.dnsalias.net:1122
Smalltalk links (harvested from comp.lang.smalltalk) http://html.dnsalias.net/gawnsoft/smalltalk

Everything we know about traffic-calming is wrong
 

paul wrote:
In article ,
says...
JNugent wrote:

The Chiswick section of M4 was designed and built to be
operated at no speed limit whatsoever - though it had the
national 70 limit imposed soon after opening.

You can't design a road for "no speed limit whatsoever". Britain's
motorways were generally designed for 70 mph, but it's obvious
that the first bend on the M4 going west was designed to a lower
standard. I thought the 50 mph limit on that stretch was imposed
from first opening, BICBW.


My understanding (based on dubious discussionswith policemen
friends of mine!) is that the motorway network in the uk is
disigned for safe travel within lanes upto 120mph.

I think you mean 120 kph.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Everything we know about traffic-calming is wrong
 

In message , Richard J.
writes
- In the early 1960s, the Maidenhead and Slough bypasses were built. I
thought they were always M4, but perhaps one or both were A4(M) for a
time. Certainly from about 1963 onwards, the M4 was planned as a
London-South Wales route.

At the time, the route was to be north of Reading, and what's now the
A404(M) was the last few miles of the M4 (up to the A4 at Burchetts
Green). There were some old M4 signs on that road up until quite
recently (not checked it for a year or two).
--
Roland Perry

Everything we know about traffic-calming is wrong
 

On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 00:52:59 GMT, Gawnsoft wrote:



Oh, and last time I checked they also had limits on the Autobahn.

Only in certain areas

i.e. round about junctions...


(which makes perfect sense to me, 100mph on the M5 as
it joins in M6 is probably not a great idea, 100mph on the M5 from Exeter up
to Bristol is generally fine)

Most of the system is limitless (for cars)

But the Germans are now seriously discussing restricting all autobahn.


As with many things, the situation with Autobahn speed limits is not as
simple as it first seems.

There are many stretches of Autobahn with speed limits. Speed limits are
often applied to reduce noise at night in urban areas and in potentially
dangerous situations such as long, steep downhills or on very bendy roads.
Variable speed limits are becoming more common, particularly on stretches
with fog risk. The vicinity of junctions is often limited. Being as
limits are common on the busiest Autobahns there's an element of truth in
saying that a very considerable proportion of Autobahn driving is done on
speed regulated sections.

A further complication is the existence of a recommended speed limit of
130kph throughout the system (where not otherwise limited). Drivers
exceeding this limit who are involved in accidents are often held to be
partially liable for the accident even though they have not broken the law.
They have to prove that the accident would not have occurred had they been
driving at 130kph.

This means that even where there is not a statutory speed limit on German
Autobahns personal liability and insurance considerations apply downward
pressure on the top speeds.

Also, most of the Autobahn network is two lane and there's plenty of
slow-moving traffic so it's often difficult to reach high speeds.

--
Michael MacClancy
Random putdown - "He is not only dull himself, he is the cause of dullness
in others." -Samuel Johnson
www.macclancy.demon.co.uk
www.macclancy.co.uk

Everything we know about traffic-calming is wrong
 

Richard J. wrote:

JNugent wrote:

The Chiswick section of M4 was designed and built to be
operated at no speed limit whatsoever - though it had the
national 70 limit imposed soon after opening.

You can't design a road for "no speed limit whatsoever".

I take your point.

A better phrase would been "was intended and built for no speed limit
whatsoever".


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Everything we know about traffic-calming is wrong
 

JNugent wrote:

Velvet wrote:


All snipped.


...because you have no effective counter to any of it.


J Nugent, you clearly won't listen to reason


...by which you arrogantly mean I won't accept your arguments (all of which
have been easily shown to be unfounded).

[ ... ]


I will continue to drive that route at the prescribed limit, accepting
that while I might not see all the reasons for the limit being set as
it is, there may be reasons that I do not understand.


AAMOF, most of us will keep to the limit (certainly including me), but we
don't all necessarily share your touching belief in the good faith of the
government.


---
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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.721 / Virus Database: 477 - Release Date: 16/07/04



All snipped because I no longer have the time nor the inclination to
participate in a thread that has been revisited ad nauseum - you may
like to think you've won a small victory and decided I have no valid
counters to your arguments, I know that to be untrue, I am just not
interested in perpetuating this total waste of time any longer.

You have the audacity to call me arrogant when you yourself make
arrogant statements like that?

Pot, kettle.

--


Velvet

Everything we know about traffic-calming is wrong
 

You held up the "unrestricted" German road network as a safety example.
This fails (a) because it is not unrestricted and (b) because it is less
safe :-)

GErman Autobahns seem to throw that out of the window. Sure you
can't design a road for "no speed whatsoever", but theres no need
for a limit on many roads. At least that's what the most populous
country in Euroep seems to think.

Have you checked the comparitive fatality figures? Last time I
looked the Autobahn was substantially more dangerous per mile
travelled than our motorways.

Much lower then the states, but a quick gogole doesnt reveal
anything.

The speed weenies in the states like to compare with the Autobahns because
they want a no-limits regime, but the Autobahn has a higher fatality rate
than is seen on the speed-limited motorways of some other countries, notably
Britain, which is nearly twice as safe as Germany. For some reason the
American speed weenies don't point this out :-)

As we have one of the lowest fatality rates in the world it
wouldn't surprise me if Germany was higher. What if you compare
Germany accident rates to Italy or France though

France is improving very rapidly at present, due, they say, to a recent
increase in enforcement. But that's not the point; the comparison being
made is between "unlimited" (actually they are limited, but not in the same
way) Autobahns and the British motorways. The British motorways are safer.
Much safer.

Oh, and last time I checked they also had limits on the Autobahn.

Only in certain areas (which makes perfect sense to me, 100mph on the
M5 as it joins in M6 is probably not a great idea, 100mph on the M5
from Exeter up to Bristol is generally fine)

url:http://www.german-way.com/german/autobahn.html

There are more limits than you might think :-) There is, I understand, a
blanket recommended 130kph limit anyway, above which you will be in Big
Trouble should you crash. And I believe they have some spectacular crashes
on the A-bahn; I recall reading about a helicopter ambulance service set up
to deal with them.

Oh, and last time I checked, their other roads do have speed limits.

Yes they do. Of course they have a decent autobahn system which means
people only travel in towns and on small roads when they are near
their destination. This of course reduces traffic in and arround
towns, and therfore accident rates.

That is more to do with geography. Germany's population density is much
lower - as with France. British motorways are often giant bypasses as much
as long-distance roads.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk