In message , Bob Martin
writes

If you mean signs to the A3 Ripley services, the reason is likely to be
that you cannot easily get back to the M25 without a long deviation.

Surely other easy option for a "quick fix" at M25 J10 would be to route to
"local services" like Cobham, which has, amongst other things, a large
Sainsbury's, complete with Restaurant and Petrol Station, just off the A3?

It would certainly be reasonably near, but it is not 24-hour opening and
I suspect that the locals might well raise planning objections.

I don't know what the official policy is for signs to off-motorway
services, but all those I can recall have been very close-by on major
roads, rather than on local side roads, and tend to point to service
areas that offer the full range of motorway-style facilities.

In the case of Cobham, I suspect it is likely that work will begin on
the official M25 service area there within less than a year, so I doubt
that any quick-fix will be applied, however viable it might be.

(Wasn't it John Major who thought that the answer to all transport
problems was a Cones Hotline and many more Motorway Service Stations,
doubtless with his much-loved caffs selling delicious peas?)

--
Paul Terry

"Dave Liney" wrote in message
...

"Bob Martin" wrote in message
...

signage to nearest
available Fuel, Food and Lodging, both as lists as you approach the
exit,
and as directions from the slip road.

Dspite the fact this has to be a *very* low cost solution (after all,
its
just a bit of research, and some signage), I doubt it would ever happen.

I can think of several reasons why it won't happen that don't rely on
conspiracy theories.

How do you define 'nearest'? As the crow flies; by road; in time taken? I
can see arguments between petrol stations and hotels about who should be
on
the list as nearest.

The signs will need to be kept up-to-date because the last thing someone
running low on fuel needs is to follow the signs off the motorway to a
place
that has shut down.

Also motorway service stations are open 24 hours whereas most non-motorway
petrol stations aren't so opening time information will have to put on the
signs, and this would also have to be kept up-to-date. As the price of
fuel
on motorway service announcement signs is no longer displayed, presumably
because of the effort required, it isn't something I'd rely on happening.

Dave




I agree it isn't a conspiracy :-) but it's already happened on A routes.
"Local services" signs are quite common followed by either a "not 24 hours"
or "24 hours".

Personally, I tend to drive further to get to the motorway services rather
than use sometimes decidedly average local offerings.

In message , Paul Dicken
writes

"Paul Terry" wrote in message
...

Cobham (between jcts 9 and 10) was the subject of a recent public
enquiry looking into a number of new motorway service areas west of
London. However, although the enquiry has finished, I last heard that
it was not due to report until 2005 and was waiting, amongst other
things, for traffic projections post Heathrow T5.

There certainly was a proposal for a service area at Downside (just south of
Cobham) three years or so ago

That's the one ... specifically, the site is New Barn Farm, Downside.

but the usual NIMBYs hated the idea of the employment that would be
attracted to the area.

They will have to wait to see the outcome of the enquiry ... it is a
Greenbelt site, which is yet another reason for the delay until 2005.

--
Paul Terry

On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 19:26:54 +0100, "JB"
wrote:

Personally, I tend to drive further to get to the motorway services rather
than use sometimes decidedly average local offerings.

This never used to be the case for me, given how dreary they used to
be - however, I must say that I was impressed with the obviously
newly-built services at South Mimms yesterday - a bright, airy
building, spotlessly clean, lots of seats and a good range of
eateries. The railway would do well to look at[1] using the same kind
of design for their concourses.

[1] Manchester Piccadilly is in a similar style, and is very
impressive - only problem is the lack of seating.

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
To e-mail use neil at the above domain

I can think of several reasons why it won't happen that don't rely on
conspiracy theories.

I'm not actually evincing a conspiracy theory, merely accepting the reality
that the words Bernard Woolley from (the written version of) "Yes, Minister"
are as true now as they were 20 years ago:

"Every Department acts for the powerful sectional interests with whom
they
have a permanent relationship"

Thus DfT is always going to be more swayed by the (likely) views of service
area operators, who will be known to them, than the motorists, who are an
amorphous mass.

How do you define 'nearest'? As the crow flies; by road; in time taken? I
can see arguments between petrol stations and hotels about who should be
on
the list as nearest.

The signs will need to be kept up-to-date because the last thing someone
running low on fuel needs is to follow the signs off the motorway to a
place
that has shut down.

Also motorway service stations are open 24 hours whereas most non-motorway
petrol stations aren't so opening time information will have to put on the
signs, and this would also have to be kept up-to-date.

Well, if American cousins can manage this, it would be sad if the consensus
was that it was beyond the capabilities of the British :-(

"Dave Liney" wrote the following in:



"Bob Martin" wrote in message
...

signage to nearest
available Fuel, Food and Lodging, both as lists as you approach
the exit, and as directions from the slip road.

Dspite the fact this has to be a *very* low cost solution (after
all, its just a bit of research, and some signage), I doubt it
would ever happen.

I can think of several reasons why it won't happen that don't rely
on conspiracy theories.

How do you define 'nearest'? As the crow flies; by road; in time
taken? I can see arguments between petrol stations and hotels
about who should be on the list as nearest.

Not a particularly massive issue. Distance by road would seem a fairly
sensible way to decide it. I don't know why you even suggested distance
as the crow flies, because that would really have no relevance to the
motorist.

The signs will need to be kept up-to-date because the last thing
someone running low on fuel needs is to follow the signs off the
motorway to a place that has shut down.

This is hardly likely to be a massive task. I wouldn't have thought
these things change all that frequently.

Also motorway service stations are open 24 hours whereas most
non-motorway petrol stations aren't so opening time information
will have to put on the signs, and this would also have to be kept
up-to-date.

I've seen signs for non 24-hour service stations before. They just say
"non-24 hour".

As the price of fuel on motorway service announcement
signs is no longer displayed, presumably because of the effort
required, it isn't something I'd rely on happening.

Surely the opening hours of a service station are more constant than
the price of fuel?

--
message by Robin May-Silk and his close friend, Robert Kilroy-Kotton
"GIVE IN! IT'S TIME TO GO!" - The NHS offers a high standard of care.

Would you take the office of relief?:
http://robinmay.fotopic.net/p4600200.html

"Neil Williams" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 19:26:54 +0100, "JB"
wrote:

Personally, I tend to drive further to get to the motorway services
rather
than use sometimes decidedly average local offerings.

This never used to be the case for me, given how dreary they used to
be - however, I must say that I was impressed with the obviously
newly-built services at South Mimms yesterday - a bright, airy
building, spotlessly clean, lots of seats and a good range of
eateries. The railway would do well to look at[1] using the same kind
of design for their concourses.

[1] Manchester Piccadilly is in a similar style, and is very
impressive - only problem is the lack of seating.

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
To e-mail use neil at the above domain



Actually I agree they used to be horrible (very occasionally I'll stumble
across an unreconstructed one). I still think they're expensive but I
realise the extra costs associated with running them.

Also motorway service stations are open 24 hours whereas most
non-motorway
petrol stations aren't so opening time information will have to put on
the
signs, and this would also have to be kept up-to-date.

Well, if American cousins can manage this, it would be sad if the
consensus
was that it was beyond the capabilities of the British :-(



In my somewhat limited experience, the USA example is no different than
here. They tend not to have on freeway service areas and those signs you
talk about tend to lead you to the big chains, not the mom&pop everyone is
usually so proud of.

On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 at 17:36:35, Dave Liney wrote:

As the price of fuel
on motorway service announcement signs is no longer displayed, presumably
because of the effort required, it isn't something I'd rely on happening.

They seem to manage in France.

Talking of which, why can't we have what they have in France and
Germany, where only every other service area has petrol and food, but
the intermediate ones have a place to park, with picnic tables and loos
and possibly/probably telephones and a local information board? I
expect they are inspected at least once a day - and the loos have become
vastly cleaner in recent years, the ones we visited this year barely
smelt at all which is unusual for French loos - but they must be
infinitely cheaper than the huge service areas. Okay, so they have
those, too - and some very nice ones, like the Aire du Baie de la Somme
near Abbeville - but you can buy a sandwich (French motorway sarnies are
far nicer than their British equivalents, but not as nice as
off-motorway ones, of course) and take it 20 km down the road to have a
picnic..... or just stop for a "drain, flush and refill" if that's all
you need.
--
Annabel Smyth
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/index.html
Website updated 6 June 2004

Martin Underwood wrote:
"Bob Martin" wrote in message
...
IIRC, the plan for the M25 was that it should have 4 service
areas, of which we now have 3 (South Mimms, Thurrock, Clackett
Lane).

Logically, the 4th would sit somewhere around junction 10 (A3) or
junction 11 (M3). As there is another bout of works around J11 at
the moment, has anyone heard if they plan to recitify the
deficiency at the same time ? Or, for that matter, ever?

Given that the south-west quarter of the M25 is the most
intensively used, it's surprising that it wasn't the first to get a
service area. It's also surprising that there aren't signs at each
junction on the M25 to the nearest off-motorway services where you
could at least get a cup of coffee and a Mars Bar, and go to the
loo.

The idea of motorways is to take traffic away from ordinary roads, not
to inject additional traffic into villages which just happen to be close
to a motorway junction. Also, the M25 junctions are quite busy enough
without encouraging extra traffic leaving and entering the M25 at them.

There seems to have been a change in the design of motorway service
stations in recent years. Originally (with the exception of
Scratchwood at the southern end of the M1) two service stations
have always been built - one serving each direction with no vehicle
link between the two. Now (M40 services, M25 services) one service
station is built which is reached by coming right off the motorway
at a junction

This is not a change in design policy. There have been several such
service areas for many years, e.g. Aust on M4 (now Severn View on M48),
Gordano on M5, Exeter on M5, in addition to Scratchwood.

- this is probably more efficient as it avoids duplication and
allows the services to be used by non-motorway traffic too. I wonder
why this wasn't done from the start.

It adds traffic to the junction roundabout, possibly requiring a bigger
junction than would otherwise be necessary, and it adds journey time.
It also, in my experience, leads to lower standards in the service area,
perhaps because big does not necessarily mean better. Personally, I
would like to see more small service areas on the French pattern, not
all with full facilities, though they have the advantage of more land
being readily available.

--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)