Tom Anderson wrote in uk.transport.london on Thu, 8 Jul 2004 10:27:37
+0100 :

On Thu, 8 Jul 2004, Solar Penguin wrote:

And, it still shows a Network Rail connection at Old Street while the
WAGN line from Finsbury Park runs to the Thameslink instead of Moorgate.
Confused? I am.

AIUI, the TL2K plan doesn't involve closing the GN Electrics route from
Finsbury Park to Moorgate, just taking trains which currently terminate at
King's Cross onto Thameslink. Thus, there will still be service from FP to
MG, via Old Street.

AIUI also, but that's not wot the map shows!

Dave

--
If the Internet is a Marx Brothers movie, and
Web, e-mail, and IRC are Groucho, Chico, and Harpo,
then Usenet is Zeppo.
(Harlan Messinger in ciwas, January 2004)

"Dave Hillam" ] wrote in message
...
Tom Anderson wrote in uk.transport.london on Thu, 8 Jul 2004 10:27:37
+0100 :

On Thu, 8 Jul 2004, Solar Penguin wrote:

And, it still shows a Network Rail connection at
Old Street while the WAGN line from Finsbury Park
runs to the Thameslink instead of Moorgate.
Confused? I am.

AIUI, the TL2K plan doesn't involve closing the GN Electrics
route from Finsbury Park to Moorgate, just taking trains
which currently terminate at King's Cross onto Thameslink.
Thus, there will still be service from FP to MG, via Old Street.

AIUI also, but that's not wot the map shows!

No, that is exactly what the map shows. The NR symbols at Moorgate, Old
Street, H&I and Finsbury Park represent the unchanged GN inner suburban.

Incidentally, the NR symbol at West Hampstead presumably represents the new
Chiltern interchange - it can't represent the NR services which currently
call here, because they are all shown as lines on the map, so no symbol
would be required.

Then again, there is an unexplained NR symbol at Blackhorse Road. They
probably just forgot to remove it when they added the Goblin to the map.

The NR symbols at West Brompton and Olympia would seem to represent services
to Watford, which presumably won't call at Shepherds Bush.

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

"John Rowland" wrote in message
...
"Dave Hillam" ] wrote in message
...
Tom Anderson wrote in uk.transport.london on Thu, 8 Jul 2004 10:27:37
+0100 :

On Thu, 8 Jul 2004, Solar Penguin wrote:

And, it still shows a Network Rail connection at
Old Street while the WAGN line from Finsbury Park
runs to the Thameslink instead of Moorgate.
Confused? I am.

AIUI, the TL2K plan doesn't involve closing the GN Electrics
route from Finsbury Park to Moorgate, just taking trains
which currently terminate at King's Cross onto Thameslink.
Thus, there will still be service from FP to MG, via Old Street.

AIUI also, but that's not wot the map shows!

No, that is exactly what the map shows. The NR symbols at Moorgate, Old
Street, H&I and Finsbury Park represent the unchanged GN inner suburban.

The map fails in one respect: it doesn't show existing NR lines - such as
the Finsbury Park to Moorgate line and the North London Line which were
usually shown even on LT-only maps long after FP-Moorgate transferred from
LT to BR. But I agree: the NR symbols at FP, OS and Moorgate *imply* the
existence of the NR line.

Where existing NR lines are shown on the map as extensions to LT lines (eg
Peckham to Clapham Junction extension to East London Line), does this imply
that NR and LT services will run together on the same lines or does it imply
that NR services will cease when LT services begin? The map doesn't answer
that question. Similarly for the New Cross to Crystal Palace and West
Croydon extensions to the East London line - will those routes be LT-only or
LT and NR interleaved?

Actually, the situation at Clapham Junction is interesting because the map
shows the existing Willesden Junction to Clapham Junction line as Silverlink
Metro, continuing unbroken (implying no change of train) as the ELL
extension. Does this mean WJ-CJ trains will be routed to use one of the
high-numbered platforms at CJ (as for long-distance trains that use the
WJ-CJ line), since Platform 2 at CJ is a terminus platform!


Lots of interesting additions:

- Shepherd's Bush to Uxbridge, presumably along GW Main line for some of the
route - will it then use the disused trackbed of the GW Main Line - Uxbridge
Vine Street line, I wonder?
- Heathrow to Essex and Kent via Crossrail: I wonder if this will be the
death knell of the premium-rate Heathrow Express service?
- North London Line terminating at Stratford instead of continuing to North
Woolwich
- Greenwich Waterfront line - interesting!
- Cross River Transit using a re-opened Aldwych station
- Thameslink using ECML as well as existing MML - I wonder how far north it
will serve on the ECML

In article m,
says...

- Shepherd's Bush to Uxbridge, presumably along GW Main line for some of the
route
This is (I assume) the West London tram which will run down the middle
of the Uxbridge Road from Shepherds Bush to Uxbridge. Very controversial
in Ealing.

Martin

On Thu, 8 Jul 2004 at 08:43:43, Dan Gravell
wrote:

Annabel Smyth wrote:

Why can't they go down Tooting Bec Common, if they can't go down
the
High Road? (No, I don't want them to bulldoze Lidl; I like Lidl!)

If you consider the route to the common that's quite a gradient at
Ambleside Avenue. I'm not sure if trams could cope with that? (not an
expert myself though).

True, and where would it come out... it's probably not really practical.

I guess it could cut into the common slightly where the horse riding
track is at the moment, then cut into the Streatham Hill area (not sure
about how the well heeled residents would feel about that though...
what do I care, BULLDOZE!). Come out at the high road at Streatham
Hill and onto Brixton from there.

Well, whatever - by then, we very much hope, the Streatham Hub will be
operational, and Streatham Station itself the site of a major transport
interchange (and a wonderful new leisure centre including ice rink and
swimming-pool etc). So why on earth not link it to Brixton by whatever
means possible - there is even a possibility for a railway connection
over existing lines.....
--
Annabel Smyth
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/index.html
Website updated 6 June 2004

John Rowland wrote in uk.transport.london on Thu, 8 Jul 2004 12:24:21
+0100 :

"Dave Hillam" ] wrote in message
...
Tom Anderson wrote in uk.transport.london on Thu, 8 Jul 2004 10:27:37
+0100 :

AIUI, the TL2K plan doesn't involve closing the GN Electrics
route from Finsbury Park to Moorgate, just taking trains
which currently terminate at King's Cross onto Thameslink.
Thus, there will still be service from FP to MG, via Old Street.

AIUI also, but that's not wot the map shows!

No, that is exactly what the map shows. The NR symbols at Moorgate, Old
Street, H&I and Finsbury Park represent the unchanged GN inner suburban.

Which is fairynuff, and accepting again the point about 'clutter',
though the current TfL Travelcard zones map at
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/pdfdocs/lon_con.pdf shows the GN inner
stations as well as the line of route from FP to MG.

I was, I suppose, speculating as to whether there had been any recent
change to the plans for the GN services under TL2.5K; but having
looked at this again and seen your other reply, I'll cheerfully bow to
your greater knowledge.

Cheers

Dave

--
If the Internet is a Marx Brothers movie, and
Web, e-mail, and IRC are Groucho, Chico, and Harpo,
then Usenet is Zeppo.
(Harlan Messinger in ciwas, January 2004)

"Annabel Smyth" wrote in message
...

I guess it could cut into the common slightly where the horse riding
track is at the moment, then cut into the Streatham Hill area (not sure
about how the well heeled residents would feel about that though...
what do I care, BULLDOZE!). Come out at the high road at Streatham
Hill and onto Brixton from there.

Well, whatever - by then, we very much hope, the Streatham Hub will be
operational, and Streatham Station itself the site of a major transport
interchange (and a wonderful new leisure centre including ice rink and
swimming-pool etc). So why on earth not link it to Brixton by whatever
means possible - there is even a possibility for a railway connection
over existing lines.....


Streatham needs the Victoria Line extension first mooted about 50 years ago.

Brixton-Streatham Hill-Streatham-Streatham Common----- thence overground to
Croydon.

It's a blindingly simple idea, and would almost definitely become the most
heavily-trafficked tube route out of Central London overnight thanks to the
existing rapidity of the Vic.

I know there were tunnelling problems in the 1960s, but surely technology
has moved on sufficiently now for this not to be a problem. They could
resite Brixton on a straight alignment and at a deeper level if necessary.

Seems like TfL are obsessed with pouring their money into 'new' schemes
which actually don't involve a lot of new routes at all, but are simply
using existing infrastructure in a differently-branded way.

BTN

On Thu, 8 Jul 2004, Solar Penguin wrote:

"John Rowland" wrote...

The omissions are more interesting.

Crazy ideas

Ah, that's my cue ...

I'd like to have seen, but there always was No Chance:

Extension of Northern line to Morden South.

And beyond - it's a short hop in tunnel under Morden park etc (with a
good opportunity for a station at the roundabout) to the NR
junction near Motspur Park, where it could take over the branch line to
Chessington South.

Colindeep Lane interchange between Thameslink and Northern Line.

Ooh, good one. Aka 'The Hyde', which, incidentally, is a very cool
neighbourhood name.

How about a similar interchange at Belsize Park? The Thameslink line
passes very close to the tube station, although it is underground, which
might make things tricky.

South Hampstead interchange for Chiltern Line.

I'm not convinced that that really makes any journeys much easier.

Much better would be to build bloody circle line platforms at Euston and
Marylebone.

Re-open Primrose Hill line to take ELLE to Kilburn.

Whassat?

tom

--
I see large and small words on this page, arranged in long rows separated by little dotty characters. Suspect written by little dotty characters, too. -- RonJeffries

On Thu, 8 Jul 2004, Sir Benjamin Nunn wrote:

"Annabel Smyth" wrote in message
...

I guess it could cut into the common slightly where the horse riding
track is at the moment, then cut into the Streatham Hill area (not sure
about how the well heeled residents would feel about that though...
what do I care, BULLDOZE!). Come out at the high road at Streatham
Hill and onto Brixton from there.

Well, whatever - by then, we very much hope, the Streatham Hub will be
operational, and Streatham Station itself the site of a major transport
interchange (and a wonderful new leisure centre including ice rink and
swimming-pool etc). So why on earth not link it to Brixton by whatever
means possible - there is even a possibility for a railway connection
over existing lines.....

Streatham needs the Victoria Line extension first mooted about 50 years ago.

Brixton-Streatham Hill-Streatham-Streatham Common----- thence overground to
Croydon.

I'll drink to that.

Seems like TfL are obsessed with pouring their money into 'new' schemes
which actually don't involve a lot of new routes at all, but are simply
using existing infrastructure in a differently-branded way.

Perhaps because you get more return-on-investment by using the money to
improve existing but poor lines than by building entirely new ones.

tom

--
Gotta have skills to pay those bills.

On Wed, 7 Jul 2004, Dave Arquati wrote:

Tom Anderson wrote:

On Wed, 7 Jul 2004, Sam Holloway wrote:

Any mooted plans to extend Victoria or Bakerloo lines south must be
pretty dormant.

I've heard mention of such plans, but no details (at least not for the
Victoria). What exactly has been proposed (seriously or not)?

Nothing is being considered seriously at the moment - I think TfL have a
full plate of projects at the moment and are having difficulty
extracting cash for any one of them, let alone new ones.

Fair enough!

It seems a bit silly, though. London must make up a huge fraction of the
GDP, yet we have two poorest boroughs in the country, and can't get the
money we need to make the city's transport network work. It's not fair! I
say we give Scotland, Wales and the North independence, and spend the tax
money we save on the tube! That's it, i'm forming a political party. VOTE
ANDERSON FOR UNWORKABLE POLICIES! YOU KNOW IT MAKES NO SENSE!

However...

Thanks for the info!

tom

--
Gotta have skills to pay those bills.