Matthew Wild wrote in message ...
David Chorley wrote:

The only interest a politician will have in climate change will be how
to extract more money from the taxpayer and extend control over the
individual.
This, incidentally, is why "global warming through increased levels of
carbon dioxide in the atmosphere" was thought up as it is hogwash as
basic science and undisproveable, as it is unproveable.

David

Your evidence for this exactly?

Matthew

1. basic science: the ability of the CO2 molecule to absorb and
re-radiate energy is based on its dipole moment. CO2 is a linear
molecule with, at best a temporarily induced dipole moment, unlike
water, which with its unshared pair of electrons has a huge dipole
moment and is a very effective greenhouse gas. Witness the change in
temperature on a cloudy night, when the clouds clear and energy is not
re-radiated back to the ground. A change in the concentration of
carbon dioxide would have to be huge to perform this degree of effect.

2. Paeleontology.
The records of prehistoric London show a savannah-like climate with
species much more like East Africa as recently as 10000 years ago, not
so long ago that continental drift would have much of an effect (
1000years/metre)

3. The data set is too small: a sample of 200 years, notwithstanding
inferences made from ice cores, is just too small to make predictions.

4 the hypothesis makes no accounting for changes in solar radiation
and sunspot activity.

HTH

David

Oklahoma, USA has undergone its coolest summer since records began...
therefore we are subject to global cooling.

"David Chorley" wrote in message
om...

A change in the concentration of carbon dioxide
would have to be huge to perform this degree of effect.

2. Paeleontology.
The records of prehistoric London show a
savannah-like climate with species much more
like East Africa as recently as 10000 years ago

You sound like a knowledgeable bloke, but if global warming is hokum, why
does New Scientist tell me it's real? Is this to do with research grants,
like the asteroids heading towards the Earth that the astronomers find
whenever they are trying to get increases in funding?

Furthermore, aren't you concerned that the North Atlantic Conveyor seems to
be stopping, or is that hokum too?

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 23:23:52 +0100, "John Rowland"
wrote:

"David Chorley" wrote in message
. com...

A change in the concentration of carbon dioxide
would have to be huge to perform this degree of effect.

2. Paeleontology.
The records of prehistoric London show a
savannah-like climate with species much more
like East Africa as recently as 10000 years ago

You sound like a knowledgeable bloke, but if global warming is hokum, why
does New Scientist tell me it's real? Is this to do with research grants,
like the asteroids heading towards the Earth that the astronomers find
whenever they are trying to get increases in funding?

Furthermore, aren't you concerned that the North Atlantic Conveyor seems to
be stopping, or is that hokum too?

Its not the change so much as the rate of change and that rate of
change can be shown to be influenced by human activity. If the
Greenland ice melts it raises sea levels by 7m or so, so UK becomes a
chain of islands. This in itself is not a problem, unless it happens
quickly (in less than 100 years for example) because relocating people
takes time. Also as the climate changes it will disrupt the growing
patterns around the world so food supply will be a problem. If the
praries go dry but it rains in Somalia it will take us time to build
up the infrastructure to move food production there and establish the
transport links to move it to where the people are. Already the
Ukraine grain harvests are failing, so we are using more Canadian
grain in the UK, the grain is fine but it is different and I know one
person (me) that has problems with it (harder grains make me ill, got
a bug in the far east that damaged my gut).
In short the solids do appear to be about to hit the punkah, the
population of the earth is at an all time high, someone somewhere is
going to suffer.


Regds
Mike

On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 18:25:02 +0100 someone who may be Mike Roebuck
wrote this:-

Interestingly, the Duke of Cornwall has been to Boscastle since
Prescott visited.

Presumably he was representing the head of state.

The former *has* promised the local community
financial assistance.

I thought that he had already provided it.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.

On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 18:25:25 +0100 someone who may be Paul Weaver
wrote this:-

But then I hate cigarette fumes too, of coursehthe greenies wouldn't dream
of banning smoking and it's poisonous fumes),

Evidence for this assertion please.

the fundamental point is the greens are luddites.

Really. So all the complicated engineering involved with many parts
of energy conservation is the actions of Luddites. FYI the Luddites
objected to progress, which is precisely not what greens are doing.
The Luddites are those that want to stick with the tired policies of
the past. I suggest you know little about Luddites.

They moan about fossil fuels, so we build nuclear reactors.

Incorrect. The two piles at Windscale produced a lot of heat and
engineers pointed out that this heat could be used to produce
electricity. Calder Hall opened in 1956, compare with the facts
below. I suggest you know little about the history of nuclear power,
or the views of greens about it.

They moan about nuclear, so we build Wind

Incorrect. Wind power was used to operate machinery for centuries. I
suggest you know little about the history of wind power.

and hydro.

Incorrect. Hydro-electricity predates nuclear electricity in the UK
by decades. FYI the Foyers scheme for the British Aluminium Company
opened in 1896. There was a public supply in Fort Augustus in 1890,
but the first large project for public supply was Rannoch by the
Grampian Electricity Supply Company in 1930.

In Wales Croesor, Llechwedd, Votty and Oakley quarries around
Blaenau Ffestiniog were all using hydro-electricity by 1906.

Of course the use of water to power machinery was common long before
then. The cotton and wool industries of Lancashire and Yorkshire
were based on hydro power and it was used for centuries before that
to grind flour. I suggest you know little of the history of hydro
power.

Now they are moaning about how hydro plants disrupt the river,

They are pointing out some of the problems of large scale hydro
power. Most of the people doing this are not greens, rather they are
flora and fauna conservationists.

and wind disrupts the climate.

Evidence for this assertion please.





--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.

On 19 Aug 2004 14:56:39 -0700 someone who may be
(David Chorley) wrote this:-

Oklahoma, USA has undergone its coolest summer since records began...
therefore we are subject to global cooling.

Nice try, but that is not how those involved at places like the
Hadley Centre have come to their conclusions.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.

On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 13:19:46 +0100 someone who may be Mark Robinson
wrote this:-

The Luddites were simply looking after their own interests.

Only their short term interests.

While I accept that one can only consider the long term if one can
survive that long that is a matter of how society is organised
rather than engineering.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.

wrote in message
...
In short the solids do appear to be about to hit the
punkah, the population of the earth is at an all time
high, someone somewhere is going to suffer.

If we are heading for what the Chinese call "interesting times", we need a
government that will make sure that foreigners suffer and we don't.

I like the UK Independence Party more every day.

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

Colin McKenzie wrote in message ...
David Chorley wrote:
This, incidentally, is why "global warming through increased levels of
carbon dioxide in the atmosphere" was thought up as it is hogwash as
basic science and undisproveable, as it is unproveable.

If global warming is happening, it's a far more serious problem for
humanity than Islamic terrorism. Yet our politicians seem much more
exercised about the latter.

As to the theory, like all theories it cannot be proved 100%. But we
have warming, we have increased CO2, and we have a credible theory to
connect the two. Until a better theory comes along, intelligent people
without vested interests accept the hypothesis.

Colin McKenzie

Firstly, Global warming is happening, beyond reasonable doubt. It is
also beyond reasonable doubt that the chief cause of this is human
production of CO2.

Second, politicians in Europe at least are doing something. Perhaps
not enough, though many would argue too much.

And yes, less than they are against Islamic Terrorism. Global warming
is of little concern to people over the next election cycle. Islamic
terrorism is.

"John Rowland" wrote in message ...
"David Chorley" wrote in message
om...

A change in the concentration of carbon dioxide
would have to be huge to perform this degree of effect.

2. Paeleontology.
The records of prehistoric London show a
savannah-like climate with species much more
like East Africa as recently as 10000 years ago

You sound like a knowledgeable bloke, but if global warming is hokum, why
does New Scientist tell me it's real? Is this to do with research grants,
like the asteroids heading towards the Earth that the astronomers find
whenever they are trying to get increases in funding?

Astronomers continually detect asteroids which will pass near Earth.
They quite correctly point out that there is a small probability of
impact. The media then blows this up, and Jo Public has no idea what
probability is, so the whole thing gets blown out of all proportion.
Subsequent obeservations (multiple observations are required to define
the orbit) reduce probability to zero.

Because of public ignorance, astronomers are now not sure how to
report potentially hazardous objects. Should they keep them secret?

Anyway, Spaceguard and related NEO (Near Earth Object) searches are
essential, because sooner or later (probably later, but maybe next
month) an asteroid is going obliterate a few 1000km2. It probably
happened twice last century. And it now appears that less than a
million years ago, we were hit by what Hollywood called an Extinction
Level Event. With amzing luck, it hit Antarctica, only causing tidal
waves and a 7m rise in sea level, but no huge dust cover.

Furthermore, aren't you concerned that the North Atlantic Conveyor seems to
be stopping, or is that hokum too?

More information is required, but given the impact of this event
hapenning, we need to investigate FAST. If it is, buy shares in treble
glazing firms. We will have a few decades to revamp our entire
infrastructure to handle a Labrador type of climate - yes the railways
could still run fine, but not in their current state.