Hi all,

I sent the following message to Kensington & Chelsea council a while back.

+++++++++++++++

At the junction of Adair Road and Appleford Road (W10) is a crossroads with
no roundabout, no stop signs, no give way signs and no dotted lines on the
road. This evening I used the junction for the first time, and came straight
through the junction in the eastbound direction at about 30 mph, since the
lack of dotted lines made me believe I had the priority. Finding myself in a
dead end, I examined the junction carefully and realised that any car going
through the junction in a north-south or south-north direction would also
believe they had the priority, and there might have been fatalities.

++++++++++++++++

Receiving no reply, I phoned them up, only to be told that it was the
council's policy not to use any road markings on quiet roads because they
thought the streets looked better without them. I drove this route yesterday
for the second time and even though I was thinking about the previous
incident, the junction sprung itself on me, and a sharp brake application
was needed to avoid driving through it at speed again.

Does anyone know if the council's policy is legal? The whole neighbourhood
seems exceptionally quiet, but this route is the only reasonable way to
avoid the banned right turn from Harrow Road to Great Western Road, so I
can't be the only non-resident to use it.

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

John Rowland wrote:
Hi all,

I sent the following message to Kensington & Chelsea council a
while back.

+++++++++++++++

At the junction of Adair Road and Appleford Road (W10) is a
crossroads with no roundabout, no stop signs, no give way signs and
no dotted lines on the road. This evening I used the junction for
the first time, and came straight through the junction in the
eastbound direction at about 30 mph, since the lack of dotted lines
made me believe I had the priority. Finding myself in a dead end, I
examined the junction carefully and realised that any car going
through the junction in a north-south or south-north direction
would also believe they had the priority, and there might have been
fatalities.

++++++++++++++++

Receiving no reply, I phoned them up, only to be told that it was
the council's policy not to use any road markings on quiet roads
because they thought the streets looked better without them. I
drove this route yesterday for the second time and even though I
was thinking about the previous incident, the junction sprung
itself on me, and a sharp brake application was needed to avoid
driving through it at speed again.

Does anyone know if the council's policy is legal? The whole
neighbourhood seems exceptionally quiet,

.... but is still a "possible area for consideration" for inclusion in
the Mayor's extension of the congestion charge zone!

There appears to be no advice in the Highway Code on how to negotiate
such a junction. There is, for example, no equivalent of the French
priority-to-the-right rule. However, I don't know whether there is a
legal obligation on the council to mark out the junction. I note that
Streetmap shows a primary school west of the junction in Appleford Road.
Would be worth a visit in term time during the school run.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 12:30:15 +0100, "John Rowland"
wrote:

Hi all,

I sent the following message to Kensington & Chelsea council a while back.

+++++++++++++++

At the junction of Adair Road and Appleford Road (W10) is a crossroads with
no roundabout, no stop signs, no give way signs and no dotted lines on the
road. This evening I used the junction for the first time, and came straight
through the junction in the eastbound direction at about 30 mph, since the
lack of dotted lines made me believe I had the priority. Finding myself in a
dead end, I examined the junction carefully and realised that any car going
through the junction in a north-south or south-north direction would also
believe they had the priority, and there might have been fatalities.

++++++++++++++++

Receiving no reply, I phoned them up, only to be told that it was the
council's policy not to use any road markings on quiet roads because they
thought the streets looked better without them. I drove this route yesterday
for the second time and even though I was thinking about the previous
incident, the junction sprung itself on me, and a sharp brake application
was needed to avoid driving through it at speed again.

Does anyone know if the council's policy is legal? The whole neighbourhood
seems exceptionally quiet, but this route is the only reasonable way to
avoid the banned right turn from Harrow Road to Great Western Road, so I
can't be the only non-resident to use it.

There are loads round where I live (south Manchester). My GFs driving
instructor told her to treat them all as give ways irrespective of the
direction from which she approached. She passed first time so it must
have been reasonable advice :-)
--

ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø
Please reply to the group
Replies to this address will bounce!
ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø

Theres lots of them arround Warrington, basically noone has right of way.
Of course up north people are polite and will organise themselves if more
thne 2 cars are at the junction at one time. Like Cheeky's Sister, when I
learnt I was told to treat them as give ways.

There are loads round where I live (south Manchester). My GFs driving
instructor told her to treat them all as give ways irrespective of the
direction from which she approached. She passed first time so it must
have been reasonable advice :-)

It's an immediate fail if you actually drive through an unmarked crossroads
at speed - even if you are on the more major road (despite the fact that
generally speaking - most traffic on the more major road will simply drive
through without slowing)

"Richard Bullock" wrote in message
...

It's an immediate fail if you actually drive through
an unmarked crossroads at speed - even if you
are on the more major road (despite the fact that
generally speaking - most traffic on the more major
road will simply drive through without slowing)

But how can you know the junction is unmarked until you are already passing
through it?

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

John Rowland wrote:
"Richard Bullock" wrote in
message ...

It's an immediate fail if you actually drive through
an unmarked crossroads at speed - even if you
are on the more major road (despite the fact that
generally speaking - most traffic on the more major
road will simply drive through without slowing)

But how can you know the junction is unmarked until you are already
passing through it?

Are you another one of these people who only looks at what's going on six
inches past their window?

If you try lookiing at the road ahead it is possible to see the presence, or
otherwise, of road markings and signs.

Paul Weaver wrote:

Like Cheeky's Sister, when I
learnt I was told to treat them as give ways.

Cheeky, are you going out with your sister? :-O :-)

"Brimstone" wrote in message
...
John Rowland wrote:

But how can you know the junction is unmarked
until you are already passing through it?

Are you another one of these people who only looks
at what's going on six inches past their window?

No, but thanks for suggesting it.

If you try lookiing at the road ahead it is possible to see
the presence, or otherwise, of road markings and signs.

While you can certainly see whether your own road has markings at the
forthcoming junction, the presence of parked cars often prevents you from
seeing whether the side roads have markings until you are too close to the
junction to stop, even if checking side roads for markings was the only
thing on which a driver had to concentrate.

Thinking about this again, I realise that I have passed many unmarked
junctions, but they are always T-Junctions, and they are almost all in short
twisty dead end roads where I have neither the desire nor the ability to do
more than 15mph. The only exception I can think of is the Y-junction of East
View and Wyburn Avenue in Barnet, where you could easily do 30mph down
either road, but the road there is wide and devoid of parked cars, so
visibility is not a problem.

I think the problem with the Kensington one is that the council thinks it's
a T-junction because the fourth road is merely a (presumably private) drive
leading to the garages of a block of flats, but when you're approaching via
Appleford Rd it looks like you are on the main road crossing two side roads.
So it has probably slipped through the councils rules - if they thought of
it as a crossroads, I am sure they would mark which road had priority.

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

John Rowland wrote:

I think the problem with the Kensington one is that the council
thinks it's a T-junction because the fourth road is merely a
(presumably private) drive leading to the garages of a block of
flats, but when you're approaching via Appleford Rd it looks like you
are on the main road crossing two side roads. So it has probably
slipped through the councils rules - if they thought of it as a
crossroads, I am sure they would mark which road had priority.

But why does one road or the other have to have priority? I know that at
first sight it sounds perverse, but if fewer junctions had such markings
then all traffic would (apart from a few morons of course) slow down and
take care. As suggested, many people rely on the road signs etc and forget
about people emrging from the side turning whose view is blocked by vehicles
parked close to the junction.

A number of people have referred to the "give way to the right" method that
is in force in parts of Europe, Isn't it about time we had a similar "give
way to the left" rule in the UK?