More expensive for same journey?
 

Travelled from Haywards Heath to Newark last Sunday. Asked for the cheapest
way, and was told it would be £54. But when I got home, I checked prices
online and found that a single From HH to Kings Cross Thameslink is £15.70
and a single from Kings Cross to Newark is £30.40. Total price £46.10. Why
such the difference in price?

Marcus

More expensive for same journey?
 

"Marcus Fox" wrote in
message ...
Travelled from Haywards Heath to Newark last Sunday. Asked for the
cheapest
way, and was told it would be £54. But when I got home, I checked prices
online and found that a single From HH to Kings Cross Thameslink is £15.70
and a single from Kings Cross to Newark is £30.40. Total price £46.10. Why
such the difference in price?

Shows that you can't trust the answer given by the staff in a station (I
presume it was at HH ticket office that you asked for the cheapest fare).
Given a question like "what is the cheapest fare from HH to Newark", the
ticket office should have searched for the cheapest combination of tickets
(not beyond the wit of a computer) and sold you the two tickets that you
mention.

I bet you're well ****ed-off that they sold you a more expensive ticket...

More expensive for same journey?
 

"Martin Underwood" wrote in message
...
"Marcus Fox" wrote in
message ...
Travelled from Haywards Heath to Newark last Sunday. Asked for the
cheapest
way, and was told it would be £54. But when I got home, I checked prices
online and found that a single From HH to Kings Cross Thameslink is
£15.70
and a single from Kings Cross to Newark is £30.40. Total price £46.10.
Why
such the difference in price?

Shows that you can't trust the answer given by the staff in a station (I
presume it was at HH ticket office that you asked for the cheapest fare).
Given a question like "what is the cheapest fare from HH to Newark", the
ticket office should have searched for the cheapest combination of tickets
(not beyond the wit of a computer) and sold you the two tickets that you
mention.

I bet you're well ****ed-off that they sold you a more expensive ticket...


Doesn't that rather depend on the instructions given to the booking office
staff and also exactly how the intending purchaser phrases the question?.

More expensive for same journey?
 

[uk.railway added for expertise]

"Marcus Fox" wrote in message ...
Travelled from Haywards Heath to Newark last Sunday. Asked for the cheapest
way, and was told it would be £54. But when I got home, I checked prices
online and found that a single From HH to Kings Cross Thameslink is £15.70
and a single from Kings Cross to Newark is £30.40. Total price £46.10. Why
such the difference in price?

Because it's not a rational system. For another example, there are
plenty of places where A B and C are in that order along a line, but a
ticket A-B costs more than a ticket A-C.

A conspiracist might suggest that guarding against the exposure of
examples such as yours is one of the reasons the useful part of the
National Fares Manual (viz, the bit *with the fares*) is not available
in 'electronic form'...

--
Larry Lard
Replies to group please

More expensive for same journey?
 

"Marcus Fox" wrote in
message ...
Travelled from Haywards Heath to Newark last Sunday. Asked for the
cheapest
way, and was told it would be £54. But when I got home, I checked prices
online and found that a single From HH to Kings Cross Thameslink is £15.70
and a single from Kings Cross to Newark is £30.40. Total price £46.10. Why
such the difference in price?

The reason for the difference is that the £54 is for a Standard Open Single
while the £30.40 KX-Newark fare is for a Cheap Day Single so you are not
comparing like with like.

Peter Smyth

More expensive for same journey?
 

In message , at 17:24:39 on Thu, 26 Aug
2004, Peter Smyth remarked:
Travelled from Haywards Heath to Newark last Sunday. Asked for the
cheapest
way, and was told it would be £54. But when I got home, I checked prices
online and found that a single From HH to Kings Cross Thameslink is £15.70
and a single from Kings Cross to Newark is £30.40. Total price £46.10. Why
such the difference in price?

The reason for the difference is that the £54 is for a Standard Open Single
while the £30.40 KX-Newark fare is for a Cheap Day Single so you are not
comparing like with like.

Is there not a Cheap Day Single from HH to Newark, then?

If not, then perhaps this establishes some kind of "rule": never buy an
Open Single if your journey spans two TOCs, always buy two Cheap Day
Singles.
--
Roland Perry

More expensive for same journey?
 

"Piccadilly Pilot" wrote in message
...

"Martin Underwood" wrote in message
...
"Marcus Fox" wrote in
message ...
Travelled from Haywards Heath to Newark last Sunday. Asked for the
cheapest
way, and was told it would be £54. But when I got home, I checked
prices
online and found that a single From HH to Kings Cross Thameslink is
£15.70
and a single from Kings Cross to Newark is £30.40. Total price £46.10.
Why
such the difference in price?

Shows that you can't trust the answer given by the staff in a station (I
presume it was at HH ticket office that you asked for the cheapest
fare).
Given a question like "what is the cheapest fare from HH to Newark", the
ticket office should have searched for the cheapest combination of
tickets
(not beyond the wit of a computer) and sold you the two tickets that you
mention.

I bet you're well ****ed-off that they sold you a more expensive
ticket...


Doesn't that rather depend on the instructions given to the booking office
staff and also exactly how the intending purchaser phrases the question?.

It does: but I think "what is the cheapest fare from HH to Newark?" should
elicit the cheapest possible fare even if that involves multiple tickets.
But then of course it is not in the *railway's* best interests to tell you
this, only in the *passenger's" best interests. Where there is a conflict of
interest, who *can* you trust to give you information about the cheapest
ticket?

More expensive for same journey?
 

"Peter Smyth" wrote in message
...

"Marcus Fox" wrote in
message ...
Travelled from Haywards Heath to Newark last Sunday. Asked for the
cheapest
way, and was told it would be £54. But when I got home, I checked prices
online and found that a single From HH to Kings Cross Thameslink is
£15.70
and a single from Kings Cross to Newark is £30.40. Total price £46.10.
Why
such the difference in price?

The reason for the difference is that the £54 is for a Standard Open
Single
while the £30.40 KX-Newark fare is for a Cheap Day Single so you are not
comparing like with like.

So what exactly is the difference? Do I get, for example, unlimited free
coffee with the former? It was on a Sunday, so the whole day is off peak,
and standard class is standard class.

Marcus

More expensive for same journey?
 

In message , at
20:05:08 on Thu, 26 Aug 2004, Martin Underwood
remarked:
I think "what is the cheapest fare from HH to Newark?" should
elicit the cheapest possible fare even if that involves multiple tickets.

I think this is explicitly excluded from the equation.

Although some "cheaper" combinations of ticket are easy to predict, it
would be difficult to train people to investigate all possibilities,
given that (a) the railways don't have this computerised and (b) most
employees have trouble selling simple one-leg tickets.
--
Roland Perry

More expensive for same journey?
 

In message , at 19:43:11 on
Thu, 26 Aug 2004, Marcus Fox
remarked:
So what exactly is the difference?

You can use the more expensive one any day (perhaps within the next 30
days) at any time of day, and probably with any breaks of journey.

Others can confirm the exact parameters.
--
Roland Perry

More expensive for same journey?
 

"Martin Underwood" wrote in message
...
"Piccadilly Pilot" wrote in message
...

"Martin Underwood" wrote in message
...
"Marcus Fox" wrote in
message ...
Travelled from Haywards Heath to Newark last Sunday. Asked for the
cheapest
way, and was told it would be £54. But when I got home, I checked
prices
online and found that a single From HH to Kings Cross Thameslink is
£15.70
and a single from Kings Cross to Newark is £30.40. Total price
£46.10.
Why
such the difference in price?

Shows that you can't trust the answer given by the staff in a station
(I
presume it was at HH ticket office that you asked for the cheapest
fare).
Given a question like "what is the cheapest fare from HH to Newark",
the
ticket office should have searched for the cheapest combination of
tickets
(not beyond the wit of a computer) and sold you the two tickets that
you
mention.

I bet you're well ****ed-off that they sold you a more expensive
ticket...


Doesn't that rather depend on the instructions given to the booking
office
staff and also exactly how the intending purchaser phrases the
question?.

It does: but I think "what is the cheapest fare from HH to Newark?" should
elicit the cheapest possible fare even if that involves multiple tickets.

I suspect that most people faced with that question would not go the the
trouble of wading through the NFM to get the answer the intending purchaser
was wanting (but didn't actually ask for). The question would have to much
more tightly phrased than that.

But then of course it is not in the *railway's* best interests to tell you
this, only in the *passenger's" best interests. Where there is a conflict
of
interest, who *can* you trust to give you information about the cheapest
ticket?

No one.

More expensive for same journey?
 

"Piccadilly Pilot" wrote in message
...

"Martin Underwood" wrote in message
...
"Piccadilly Pilot" wrote in message
...

"Martin Underwood" wrote in message
...
"Marcus Fox" wrote
in
message ...
Travelled from Haywards Heath to Newark last Sunday. Asked for the
cheapest
way, and was told it would be £54. But when I got home, I checked
prices
online and found that a single From HH to Kings Cross Thameslink
is
£15.70
and a single from Kings Cross to Newark is £30.40. Total price
£46.10.
Why
such the difference in price?

Shows that you can't trust the answer given by the staff in a
station
(I
presume it was at HH ticket office that you asked for the cheapest
fare).
Given a question like "what is the cheapest fare from HH to Newark",
the
ticket office should have searched for the cheapest combination of
tickets
(not beyond the wit of a computer) and sold you the two tickets that
you
mention.

I bet you're well ****ed-off that they sold you a more expensive
ticket...


Doesn't that rather depend on the instructions given to the booking
office
staff and also exactly how the intending purchaser phrases the
question?.

It does: but I think "what is the cheapest fare from HH to Newark?"
should
elicit the cheapest possible fare even if that involves multiple
tickets.

The rule is that staff can sell multiple tickets - as the OP described - if
asked for them, but cannot offer them, because there could be an even
cheaper price by changing the place where you go from one ticket to the
next. Staff are only allowed to sell ordinary tickets unless asked
specifically for other combinations.

Actually, the OP was sold the cheapest ticket from HH to Newark, but what
was cheaper was a ticket from HH to London and London to Newark, but that's
a different question.

Michael

More expensive for same journey?
 

"Michael Hopkins" wrote in message
...


Actually, the OP was sold the cheapest ticket from HH to Newark, but what
was cheaper was a ticket from HH to London and London to Newark, but
that's
a different question.

I think to the average punter, the difference between the two would be seen
as splitting hairs.

I suppose the question asked of the ticket office should have been "what is
the cheapest combination of tickets that will take me from HH to Newark".
And if the rail companies don't have access to this information, then they
bloody-well should have - they do run the services and set the fares, after
all.

In an ideal world, there would be only one fare between A and B, it would be
valid for travel at any time (and return at any other time, on the same or
another day) and it would be directly proportional to distance travelled.
That would make life so much easier. Sadly our beloved rail watchdog has
allowed TOCs to charge perverse fares (such as A-B being more expensive than
A-C, where B is between A and C) and A-B being more expensive than B-A,
instead of uttering Harry Enfield "Oi! No!" edicts.

More expensive for same journey?
 

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
.uk...
In message , at 19:43:11 on
Thu, 26 Aug 2004, Marcus Fox
remarked:
So what exactly is the difference?

You can use the more expensive one any day (perhaps within the next 30
days) at any time of day, and probably with any breaks of journey.

Ticket states "valid on date shown"

Marcus

More expensive for same journey?
 

In message , at 20:42:56 on Thu, 26
Aug 2004, Piccadilly Pilot remarked:
It does: but I think "what is the cheapest fare from HH to Newark?" should
elicit the cheapest possible fare even if that involves multiple tickets.

I suspect that most people faced with that question would not go the the
trouble of wading through the NFM to get the answer the intending purchaser
was wanting (but didn't actually ask for). The question would have to much
more tightly phrased than that.

Something like "What's the cheapest ticket combination you can sell me
to go from here to Newark and back, travelling today only, no break of
journey"?
--
Roland Perry

More expensive for same journey?
 

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 20:42:56 on Thu, 26
Aug 2004, Piccadilly Pilot remarked:
It does: but I think "what is the cheapest fare from HH to Newark?"
should elicit the cheapest possible fare even if that involves
multiple tickets.

I suspect that most people faced with that question would not go the
the trouble of wading through the NFM to get the answer the
intending purchaser was wanting (but didn't actually ask for). The
question would have to much more tightly phrased than that.

Something like "What's the cheapest ticket combination you can sell me
to go from here to Newark and back, travelling today only, no break of
journey"?

Something like that. And just hope that the person behind you doesn't want
to catch a train in the next twenty minutes or so. :-)

More expensive for same journey?
 

In article ,
Martin Underwood wrote:
In an ideal world, there would be only one fare between A and B, it would be
valid for travel at any time (and return at any other time, on the same or
another day)

It is entirly reasonable for the pricing regime to encourage users
onto services with spare capacity. See, for example, the way that
hotels are cheaper on the off season.

Even in an ideal world, there will be services with spare capacity:
trains arriving at Liverpool Street at about 9am tend to be fuller
than trains leaving Waterloo at about 9am.


and it would be directly proportional to distance travelled.

And the dificulty of building lines to travel that distnce? Tunnels and
bridges are expensive to build!

That would make life so much easier. Sadly our beloved rail watchdog has
allowed TOCs to charge perverse fares (such as A-B being more expensive than
A-C, where B is between A and C)

I can't think of a reaon for this.

and A-B being more expensive than B-A,

Supply and demand make this both reasonable, fair, and proper.

instead of uttering Harry Enfield "Oi! No!" edicts.

--
You dont have to be illiterate to use the Internet, but it help's.

More expensive for same journey?
 

"Piccadilly Pilot" wrote in message
...
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 20:42:56 on Thu, 26
Aug 2004, Piccadilly Pilot remarked:
It does: but I think "what is the cheapest fare from HH to Newark?"
should elicit the cheapest possible fare even if that involves
multiple tickets.

I suspect that most people faced with that question would not go the
the trouble of wading through the NFM to get the answer the
intending purchaser was wanting (but didn't actually ask for). The
question would have to much more tightly phrased than that.

Something like "What's the cheapest ticket combination you can sell me
to go from here to Newark and back, travelling today only, no break of
journey"?

Something like that. And just hope that the person behind you doesn't want
to catch a train in the next twenty minutes or so. :-)

Yeah, thats kind of why I didn't press him to find something cheaper. There
was a chap in the line behind me wanting tickets for a family of seven to
Victoria. They made their train, but only barely, he came running up the
steps just as the train was pulling in.

Marcus

More expensive for same journey?
 

In message , at
22:36:07 on Thu, 26 Aug 2004, Martin Underwood
remarked:
In an ideal world, there would be only one fare between A and B, it would be
valid for travel at any time (and return at any other time, on the same or
another day) and it would be directly proportional to distance travelled.

The problem with making it directly proportional to the distance
travelled is that often there is more than one route.

Should a ticket from Peterborough to Nottingham be two different prices,
depending on whether one catches the [roughly alternating] services via
Leicester or Grantham?

You could set the fare as the shorter of the two, but that will then
create further anomalies. What, for example, if Peterborough to
Leicester was further than Peterborough to Nottingham via Grantham [1]?

You'd then have one of those situations where a ticket
Peterborough-Leicester-Nottingham was cheaper than
Peterborough-Leicester!!

[1] Surprisingly, Pbo-Leicester by train is 52 miles 16 chains
Pbo-Nottingham (via Grantham) is 51 miles 66 chains.
--
Roland Perry

More expensive for same journey?
 

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
.uk...
In message , at
22:36:07 on Thu, 26 Aug 2004, Martin Underwood
remarked:
In an ideal world, there would be only one fare between A and B, it would
be
valid for travel at any time (and return at any other time, on the same
or
another day) and it would be directly proportional to distance travelled.

The problem with making it directly proportional to the distance
travelled is that often there is more than one route.

Should a ticket from Peterborough to Nottingham be two different prices,
depending on whether one catches the [roughly alternating] services via
Leicester or Grantham?

You could set the fare as the shorter of the two, but that will then
create further anomalies. What, for example, if Peterborough to
Leicester was further than Peterborough to Nottingham via Grantham [1]?

You'd then have one of those situations where a ticket
Peterborough-Leicester-Nottingham was cheaper than
Peterborough-Leicester!!

This is what happened to me in Italy. I had travelled by an valid
alternative route that was not the one that I had a ticket for.

I had my official 'collection' ticket taken away from me,
surcharged for the different fare and was given back a tatty
scrap of paper.

And all for 400 lira (20p)

tim

More expensive for same journey?
 

Roland Perry wrote in message o.uk...
In message , at
22:36:07 on Thu, 26 Aug 2004, Martin Underwood
remarked:
In an ideal world, there would be only one fare between A and B, it would be
valid for travel at any time (and return at any other time, on the same or
another day) and it would be directly proportional to distance travelled.

The problem with making it directly proportional to the distance
travelled is that often there is more than one route.

Should a ticket from Peterborough to Nottingham be two different prices,
depending on whether one catches the [roughly alternating] services via
Leicester or Grantham?

You could set the fare as the shorter of the two, but that will then
create further anomalies. What, for example, if Peterborough to
Leicester was further than Peterborough to Nottingham via Grantham [1]?

You'd then have one of those situations where a ticket
Peterborough-Leicester-Nottingham was cheaper than
Peterborough-Leicester!!

[1] Surprisingly, Pbo-Leicester by train is 52 miles 16 chains
Pbo-Nottingham (via Grantham) is 51 miles 66 chains.

Then God invented the zonal fare, and it was good.