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Bus driver complaint and OYBike
Nick Cooper wrote to uk.transport.london on Sun, 10 Oct 2004:
Yeah, well having seen speeding cyclists jumping reds at crossings and coming within a hair's bredth of sending OAPs flying, I'll reserve judgement on that one. Not even OAPs - I was very nearly sent flying by one the other day, and I am merely middle aged. All the same, I don't want to be knocked down, thank you. -- "Mrs Redboots" http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/ Website updated 26 September 2004 |
Bus driver complaint and OYBike
Annabel Smyth wrote:
Not even OAPs - I was very nearly sent flying by one the other day, and I am merely middle aged. All the same, I don't want to be knocked down, thank you. Methinks you do exaggerate a tad. The number of pedestrians killed by cylists in the carriageway is 0.1% of the number killed by motor vehicles. The number of pedestrians seriously injured by cyclists in the carriageway is 0.2% of those seriously injured by motor vehicles. I don't condone dangerous cycling but you need to get the sources of danger in perspective. Tony |
Bus driver complaint and OYBike
Tony Raven wrote to uk.transport.london on Mon, 11 Oct 2004:
Annabel Smyth wrote: Not even OAPs - I was very nearly sent flying by one the other day, and I am merely middle aged. All the same, I don't want to be knocked down, thank you. Methinks you do exaggerate a tad. No. I *am* middle-aged, and I *was* very nearly sent flying by a cyclist jumping a red light on Brixton Road. And it was within the last two months, so very recently. The number of pedestrians killed by cylists in the carriageway is 0.1% of the number killed by motor vehicles. Do feel free to point out where I said anything about being killed? I said "knocked down" - even were one not to be injured, I would really rather not be knocked down, whether by a cyclist, pedestrian or even a passing lamp-post! -- "Mrs Redboots" http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/ Website updated 26 September 2004 |
Bus driver complaint and OYBike
Annabel Smyth writes:
Tony Raven wrote to uk.transport.london on Mon, 11 Oct 2004: Annabel Smyth wrote: Not even OAPs - I was very nearly sent flying by one the other day, and I am merely middle aged. All the same, I don't want to be knocked down, thank you. Methinks you do exaggerate a tad. No. I *am* middle-aged, and I *was* very nearly sent flying ... I suppose the argument turns on the "nearly" - one person's "nearly" is another's "missed by miles"... |
Bus driver complaint and OYBike
"Tony Raven" wrote in message ... Spicknspan wrote: A few months ago I saw what this can lead to. A lycra clad cyclist went flying around the roundabout at Trafalgar Square at a good 30mph, and turned down Whitehall going straight through the red light, and straight into a woman crossing the road. It doesn't excuse bad behaviour like that but its interesting you have to delve back several months to come up with an example, I'd have to delve back even further for an example of a car accident I've seen, although I'm sure many have happened since. which, knowing the complex junction to turn into Whitehall from Trafalgar Sq is rather improbable. Maybe improbable, but true. I am sure the London cycling contingent can give you daily examples of cyclists becoming the victims of bad driving and pedestrians stepping out without looking. FWIW 30mph seems to be the norm for all traffic round other parts of Trafalgar square when it gets the opportunity. Does that include going through red lights without even a pretence of braking? Tony |
Bus driver complaint and OYBike
On 11/10/04 1:49 pm, in article ,
"Spicknspan" wrote: "Tony Raven" wrote in message ... Spicknspan wrote: A few months ago I saw what this can lead to. A lycra clad cyclist went flying around the roundabout at Trafalgar Square at a good 30mph, and turned down Whitehall going straight through the red light, and straight into a woman crossing the road. It doesn't excuse bad behaviour like that but its interesting you have to delve back several months to come up with an example, which, knowing the complex junction to turn into Whitehall from Trafalgar Sq is rather improbable. Maybe improbable, but true. 30mph? Really? How did you measure it? Or is it a 'my goodness they were going quickly, must have been at least pluck figure out of air 30mph' It would be nigh on impossible except on a completely clear road, and I doubt the road there ever gets that clear. ...d |
Bus driver complaint and OYBike
Paul Rudin wrote to uk.transport.london on Mon, 11 Oct 2004:
I suppose the argument turns on the "nearly" - one person's "nearly" is another's "missed by miles"... I dare say - when you step into the road and have to leap back on to the pavement to avoid being run down, you consider it "nearly". At least, I do..... Had I been another inch further into the road, we would have collided. Mind you, come to think of it, I'm so fat the cyclist would probably have come off worst. -- "Mrs Redboots" http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/ Website updated 26 September 2004 |
Bus driver complaint and OYBike
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Bus driver complaint and OYBike
David Martin wrote:
30mph? Really? How did you measure it? Or is it a 'my goodness they were going quickly, must have been at least pluck figure out of air 30mph' It would be nigh on impossible except on a completely clear road, and I doubt the road there ever gets that clear. Come to think of it, it wasn't the Tour of Britain final stage they were thinking of was it? Hordes of lycra clad cyclists averaging 30mph going through that junction 40 times in 100 mins whether the lights were red or green. OTOH it was an officially sanctioned closed road race and I don't remember the peleton hitting anyone. Tony |
Bus driver complaint and OYBike
Annabel Smyth wrote:
I dare say - when you step into the road and have to leap back on to the pavement to avoid being run down, you consider it "nearly". At least, I do..... Had I been another inch further into the road, we would have collided. Did you look before you stepped into the road or did you make the common pedestrian mistake of believing because you cannot hear a motor there is no traffic. Would you have stepped out in the same way if a car had been approaching at the same speed? Tony |
Bus driver complaint and OYBike
On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 21:12:49 +0100, "Frank X"
wrote: "David Martin" wrote in message .. . On 11/10/04 12:12 am, in article , "Nick Cooper" wrote: Indeed. Whinging cyclists should be aware that not all of their bretheren are white-clad angels-on-wheels. They are no more my brethren than they are yours. In the same way that uk.r.c regard most bus drivers as good, well trained and competent professionals who it is a pleasure to share the road with. ???? Where do you live? When I'm cycling I'd rather be sharing the road with bus drivers than car drivers. They've had more training and have more incentive to follow the rules and try not to kill anyone. |
Bus driver complaint and OYBike
"David Martin" wrote in message ... On 11/10/04 12:12 am, in article , "Nick Cooper" wrote: Indeed. Whinging cyclists should be aware that not all of their bretheren are white-clad angels-on-wheels. They are no more my brethren than they are yours. In the same way that uk.r.c regard most bus drivers as good, well trained and competent professionals who it is a pleasure to share the road with. ???? Where do you live? |
Bus driver complaint and OYBike
Tony Raven wrote:
Annabel Smyth wrote: I dare say - when you step into the road and have to leap back on to the pavement to avoid being run down, you consider it "nearly". At least, I do..... Had I been another inch further into the road, we would have collided. Did you look before you stepped into the road or did you make the common pedestrian mistake of believing because you cannot hear a motor there is no traffic. Why are you so reluctant to acknowledge the cause of this dangerous incident? The cyclist (or POB if you prefer) rode through a red light. Are you trying to condone that? -- Richard J. (to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address) |
Bus driver complaint and OYBike
Richard J. wrote:
Why are you so reluctant to acknowledge the cause of this dangerous incident? The cyclist (or POB if you prefer) rode through a red light. Are you trying to condone that? If you bothered to read my other posts in this thread you would already know that I do not condone red light jumping by cyclists (or motorcyclists, motorists, taxis or buses for that matter) Tony |
Bus driver complaint and OYBike
On 11/10/04 9:12 pm, in article , "Frank X"
wrote: "David Martin" wrote in message ... On 11/10/04 12:12 am, in article , "Nick Cooper" wrote: Indeed. Whinging cyclists should be aware that not all of their bretheren are white-clad angels-on-wheels. They are no more my brethren than they are yours. In the same way that uk.r.c regard most bus drivers as good, well trained and competent professionals who it is a pleasure to share the road with. ???? Where do you live? Dundee. It's the one in fifty who are complete ******* who tend to impinge more on your memory. The bus drivers around here are, in the vast majority of cases, very good and pleasant to share the road with. There are always some exceptions. ...d |
Bus driver complaint and OYBike
David Martin wrote:
Dundee. It's the one in fifty who are complete ******* who tend to impinge more on your memory. The bus drivers around here are, in the vast majority of cases, very good and pleasant to share the road with. There are always some exceptions. Around here - London Town Devine - approximately 50% of them appear to be terminal menks. Most notably he URL: http://tinyurl.co.uk/iz7c where they seem to regard the observance of red lights and box junctions as optional. Moreover, Uncle Ken and his Kohorts have now introduced Bendy-Buses on two routes which occupy some, or more, of my commute. They have big signs on the back saying "this vehicle is 18m long", a fact of which many of the drivers appear to be ignorant. Gagh! -- Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/ ================================================== ========= Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter http://www.bhpc.org.uk/ ================================================== ========= |
Bus driver complaint and OYBike
David Martin wrote to uk.transport.london on Tue, 12 Oct 2004:
The bus drivers around here are, in the vast majority of cases, very good and pleasant to share the road with. There are always some exceptions. From a pedestrian's point of view, even in London it is those bus drivers who see you running for the bus and deliberately pull away or slam the door in your face who are remembered; the many more who wait for you - and I saw one extremely nice driver wait for a young woman who had to run for quite a distance two days ago - are soon forgotten. -- "Mrs Redboots" http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/ Website updated 26 September 2004 |
Bus driver complaint and OYBike
Tony Raven wrote to uk.transport.london on Mon, 11 Oct 2004:
Annabel Smyth wrote: I dare say - when you step into the road and have to leap back on to the pavement to avoid being run down, you consider it "nearly". At least, I do..... Had I been another inch further into the road, we would have collided. Did you look before you stepped into the road or did you make the common pedestrian mistake of believing because you cannot hear a motor there is no traffic. Would you have stepped out in the same way if a car had been approaching at the same speed? Normally, when a pelican crossing is on a pedestrian cycle, the traffic stops to allow pedestrians to cross the road. The cars had stopped, the "little green man" was green, and the audible indicator was beeping. Cyclist came up inside a bus, where he couldn't be seen, and zoomed straight past, utterly ignoring the three facts mentioned above. -- "Mrs Redboots" http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/ Website updated 26 September 2004 |
Bus driver complaint and OYBike
In article , David Martin wrote:
On 11/10/04 9:12 pm, in article , "Frank X" wrote: "David Martin" wrote in message ... On 11/10/04 12:12 am, in article , "Nick Cooper" wrote: Indeed. Whinging cyclists should be aware that not all of their bretheren are white-clad angels-on-wheels. They are no more my brethren than they are yours. In the same way that uk.r.c regard most bus drivers as good, well trained and competent professionals who it is a pleasure to share the road with. ???? Where do you live? Dundee. It's the one in fifty who are complete ******* who tend to impinge more on your memory. The bus drivers around here are, in the vast majority of cases, very good and pleasant to share the road with. There are always some exceptions. There's more to being a competent professional bus driver than being a pleasure to share the road with. Making some attempt to stick to the route on the timetable, for example. Maybe they do that more often in Dundee than Cambridge, see cam.transport passim. |
Bus driver complaint and OYBike
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Bus driver complaint and OYBike
Jon Senior wrote to uk.transport.london on Tue, 12 Oct 2004:
In article , says... Normally, when a pelican crossing is on a pedestrian cycle, the traffic stops to allow pedestrians to cross the road. The above statement comes across as a little naive to me. Certainly the crossing outside my flat often bears witness to drivers approaching with wheels locked because they didn't notice in time, or simply driving straight through on red. The one outside my flat, too - but not the one just opposite Brixton Tube station, where this incident happened, where, if anything, it is the other way about (i.e. the pedestrians cross all the time and woe betide the hapless traffic!). -- "Mrs Redboots" http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/ Website updated 26 September 2004 |
Bus driver complaint and OYBike
Annabel Smyth wrote:
Normally, when a pelican crossing is on a pedestrian cycle, the traffic stops to allow pedestrians to cross the road. The cars had stopped, the "little green man" was green, and the audible indicator was beeping. Cyclist came up inside a bus, where he couldn't be seen, and zoomed straight past, utterly ignoring the three facts mentioned above. In that case you not only met a cyclist who's actions I don't condone, you also met one of those p******s who give the rest of us a bad name for which I apologise. Tony |
Bus driver complaint and OYBike
On 12 Oct 2004 12:49:06 +0100 (BST), (Alan
Braggins) wrote in message : There's more to being a competent professional bus driver than being a pleasure to share the road with. Making some attempt to stick to the route on the timetable, for example. We have two shuttle buses to my office from the station. One is owned and operated by the property management company, and the driver is a fine and courteous gentleman who has even been known to give me and my bike a lift on occasion. The other is of the sort who thinks of bicycles as a theoretical construct of zero thickness and infinite rigidity, to be passed with a minimum of diversion from straight-ahead, and moving at a speed whereby it is save to move back in again as soon as said cyclist is out of your peripheral vision. They are both driving the same route to the same timetable, so the more aggressive one merely has to wait somewhat longer at each end. Guy -- May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting. http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk 88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University |
Bus driver complaint and OYBike
On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 11:14:21 +0100, Annabel Smyth
wrote in message : Normally, when a pelican crossing is on a pedestrian cycle, the traffic stops to allow pedestrians to cross the road. Though not always, for example in Reading. Where it is also considered perfectly acceptable to drive through bus links clearly marked for buses and taxis only. Many road users do whatever they think they can get away with. In the case of cyclists, they do so primarily at risk to themselves. In the case of motorists, less so. Which is why some URCers take umbrage when the lawless behaviour of some cyclists is used as a smokescreen to obscure the lawless and much more dangerous behaviour of many drivers. Guy -- May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting. http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk 88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University |
Bus driver complaint and OYBike
Jon Senior wrote in message .. .
In article , says... I dare say - when you step into the road and have to leap back on to the pavement to avoid being run down, you consider it "nearly". At least, I do..... Had I been another inch further into the road, we would have collided. I've been surprisingly good at avoiding collisions when pedestrians randomly wander into the road without looking. It's possible that the moron in question wouldn't actually have hit you (Although if he was cycling through a red his skills are somewhat irrelevant). Good for you. Unfortunately, in most cases I've witness or been a party to, the cyclists in question invariably jumped reds at Pelicans, often swerving into view from behind moto vehicles that had actually stopped at the lights. Mind you, come to think of it, I'm so fat the cyclist would probably have come off worst. Despite my earlier claim I have however hit a pedestrian once while cycling. Neither of us sustained serious injuries (Although I did have a stiff arm for a few days) and he was very quick to apologise (His fault!). I think you'd actually have to be pretty unlucky to be seriously hurt by a cyclist. Being in some way attached to the bike means that they tend to come off worst! Oh, well that makes it perfectly alright then. |
Bus driver complaint and OYBike
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Bus driver complaint and OYBike
Jon Senior wrote in message .. .
In article , says... Normally, when a pelican crossing is on a pedestrian cycle, the traffic stops to allow pedestrians to cross the road. The above statement comes across as a little naive to me. Certainly the crossing outside my flat often bears witness to drivers approaching with wheels locked because they didn't notice in time, or simply driving straight through on red. The cars had stopped, the "little green man" was green, and the audible indicator was beeping. Cyclist came up inside a bus, where he couldn't be seen, and zoomed straight past, utterly ignoring the three facts mentioned above. As someone once pointed out. Every other driver could be a red light jumper and you'd never know because it only takes one car to block them. The same is not true of cyclists so you tend to see the real proportion of people who believe that the law doesn't apply to them. Not just a river in Egypt.... There is a five-way junction outside Lambeth North Tube station, which I use as it's the closest to where I work, and so have to negotiate it as a pedestrian at leat twice a day. Despite the heavy traffic, I genuinely can't recall the last time I saw a motor vehicle jumping the lights. Cyclists jumping reds or avoiding them by swerving onto the pavements, though, are virtually a daily occurance. |
Bus driver complaint and OYBike
"Just zis Guy, you know?" wrote in message . ..
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 18:43:20 GMT, (Nick Cooper) wrote: You can complain to uk.tosspot, who will greet you as a long-lost brother. They think the fact that "yoofs" on bikes commit offences justifies I don't recall putting the sort of cyclist I was complaining about into any particular age bracket. In fact, my own observations tell me that the most "serious"-looking of cyclists are - if anything - worse. Ah, so you are making a non age-specific invalid generalisation instead of the usual age-specific one. That changes everything, obviously... whatever behaviour they see fit to inflict on those unlucky enough to have to share the road with them, and the disparity in danger posed by cyclists and motorists is of no relevance. I could ask you to elaborate on the huge supposition you seem to have made here, but you've already dug yourself into too deep a hole as it is. What supposition? Look back at the history of cross-posted threads between urc and uk.tosspot. Your supposition that I have any affinity with - or remit to defend - the drivers of motor vehicles. Alternatively you could consider to what extent the relative seriousness of your pet hate Please justify use of phrase "pet hate". Please jsutify the use of illegal cyclist behaviour to excuse illegal and potentially lethal bus driver behaviour. And where am I supposed to have done that, smartarse? and the homicidal bus driver might be informed by the fact the fact that the bus driver is trained to a higher standard than most road users, is entrusted with the safety of multiple occupants of his vehicle, is driving a large and heavy vehicle and is notionally a professional driver paid to drive. His company has a duty of care to those with whom their drivers share the roads. So that excuses crap cyclists, does it? So you feel it's perfectly acceptable to use the behaviour of crap cyclists to excuse that of crap drivers, but not vice-versa? Fascinating. Since I haven't, then obviously not. Admit it - you don't even know what you're talkign about, do you? |
Bus driver complaint and OYBike
On 19 Oct 2004 06:16:58 -0700, (Nick
Cooper 625) wrote: What supposition? Look back at the history of cross-posted threads between urc and uk.tosspot. Your supposition that I have any affinity with - or remit to defend - the drivers of motor vehicles. And yet you seek to prosecute cyclists for the tiny risk they pose, without at the same time commenting on the equally commonplace and far more dangerous lawbreaking of motorised road users. Why is that, I wonder? Most pedestrians' representatives seem to have no trouble distinguishing between the scale of risk posed by cars and bicycles, and devote their efforts to controlling motor danger. We already know that you are about 200 times more likely to be killed /on the footway/ by a motor driver than by a cyclist, after all. But instead of railing against lawlessness among vehicle users - which is not in any way contentious (except on uk.tosspot, a fantasy land where speeding is not illegal) - you choose to pick on those who not only pose little risk, but actually share the danger. In case you hadnt noticed the leading cause of both pedestrian and cyclist death is collisions involving motor vehicles. And cyclists are actually much less likely to be to blame for their own demise than are pedestrians. It is a strange and inconsistent view you have. Please jsutify the use of illegal cyclist behaviour to excuse illegal and potentially lethal bus driver behaviour. And where am I supposed to have done that, smartarse? Up through the thread history, that is how you started the whole thing. So you feel it's perfectly acceptable to use the behaviour of crap cyclists to excuse that of crap drivers, but not vice-versa? Fascinating. Since I haven't, then obviously not. Admit it - you don't even know what you're talkign about, do you? Indeed I do, having spent a lot of time researching the matter. Guy -- May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting. http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk 88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University |
Bus driver complaint and OYBike
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Bus driver complaint and OYBike
On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 14:32:59 +0100, "Just zis Guy, you know?"
wrote: On 19 Oct 2004 06:16:58 -0700, (Nick Cooper 625) wrote: What supposition? Look back at the history of cross-posted threads between urc and uk.tosspot. Your supposition that I have any affinity with - or remit to defend - the drivers of motor vehicles. And yet you seek to prosecute cyclists for the tiny risk they pose, without at the same time commenting on the equally commonplace and far more dangerous lawbreaking of motorised road users. I daresay if you looked properly you would see a fair few comments by me about motor vehicle drivers. However, I see just as many cyclists behaving like aresholes as car/van/lorry drivers, so I don't see why they should be excused comment. Why is that, I wonder? Because you have a self-selecting chip on your shoulder? Most pedestrians' representatives seem to have no trouble distinguishing between the scale of risk posed by cars and bicycles, and devote their efforts to controlling motor danger. We already know that you are about 200 times more likely to be killed /on the footway/ by a motor driver than by a cyclist, after all. Yes, I'm sure that's a huge consolation to any pedestrian who gets hit by a reckless cyclist. Of course, cars do not routinely deliberate travel on pavements, but many cyclists certainly do. But instead of railing against lawlessness among vehicle users - which is not in any way contentious (except on uk.tosspot, a fantasy land where speeding is not illegal) - you choose to pick on those who not only pose little risk, but actually share the danger. In case you hadnt noticed the leading cause of both pedestrian and cyclist death is collisions involving motor vehicles. And cyclists are actually much less likely to be to blame for their own demise than are pedestrians. If you can prove that I have never made an adverse comment about motor vehicle drivers, you might have a point, but since you can't, you're just coming up with the same self-selecting ******** again. It is a strange and inconsistent view you have. No, it's a strange an inconsistent defensive attitude you have. Please jsutify the use of illegal cyclist behaviour to excuse illegal and potentially lethal bus driver behaviour. And where am I supposed to have done that, smartarse? Up through the thread history, that is how you started the whole thing. Really? I can't see any statement by me that "excuse illegal and potentially lethal bus driver behaviour." Would you care to identify it specifically, or are you just leaping to huge conclusions. Again. So you feel it's perfectly acceptable to use the behaviour of crap cyclists to excuse that of crap drivers, but not vice-versa? Fascinating. Since I haven't, then obviously not. Admit it - you don't even know what you're talkign about, do you? Indeed I do, having spent a lot of time researching the matter. Nice set of reasearch blinkers you have, obviously. -- Nick Cooper [Carefully remove the detonators from my e-mail address to reply!] The London Underground at War: http://www.cwgcuser.org.uk/personal/...ra/lu/tuaw.htm 625-Online - classic British television: http://www.625.org.uk 'Things to Come' - An Incomplete Classic: http://www.thingstocome.org.uk |
Bus driver complaint and OYBike
On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 08:13:11 GMT, Nick Cooper
wrote: On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 14:32:59 +0100, "Just zis Guy, you know?" wrote: Most pedestrians' representatives seem to have no trouble distinguishing between the scale of risk posed by cars and bicycles, and devote their efforts to controlling motor danger. We already know that you are about 200 times more likely to be killed /on the footway/ by a motor driver than by a cyclist, after all. Yes, I'm sure that's a huge consolation to any pedestrian who gets hit by a reckless cyclist. Of course, cars do not routinely deliberate travel on pavements, but many cyclists certainly do. Really? At the lights just over there, points out window, one lane opens to two for the stop line. If there are vehicles waiting to turn right, and there usually are, then those drivers who want to go straight on mount the pavement and drive along it to bypass stopped vehicles. The drivers' behaviour is routine, I see it every single day, and deliberate. At the school over there, points in roughly the same direction, the parents seem to not want to let their little dears walk too far along the pavement so they park as near to the school as possible. When the yellow zigzags are full, as they usually are, drivers will mount the pavement and drive along it, parking on the grass verge (and the pavement.) The drivers' behaviour is routine, I see it every school day, and deliberate. It makes the pavement so dangerous parents daren't let their kids walk on it! These are just two places in Durham, not a particularly large city. I would doubt they are the only examples or routine and deliberate pavement driving even for Durham. Why do you think there are so many bollards along the outer edges of pavements? Colin |
Bus driver complaint and OYBike
On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 08:13:11 GMT someone who may be
(Nick Cooper) wrote this:- Of course, cars do not routinely deliberate travel on pavements, but many cyclists certainly do. Correct. They are inanimate objects. However, car drivers do routinely and deliberately travel on pavements. I see it every day. I also see cyclists do the same thing. The one who did so outside my office yesterday was not keen on me sweeping some broken glass across the pavement and into the road. -- David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000. ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- |
Bus driver complaint and OYBike
In message , at 09:54:16 on
Wed, 20 Oct 2004, David Hansen remarked: Of course, cars do not routinely deliberate travel on pavements, but many cyclists certainly do. Correct. They are inanimate objects. However, car drivers do routinely and deliberately travel on pavements. I see it every day. I also see cyclists do the same thing. I've often seen cars *on* the pavement, but rarely had difficulty with one that was *driving* along the pavement. Never has one come close to threatening me (although sometimes it's inconvenient to get past them). However, I have often had collisions, or had to move very fast to avoid one, when a cyclist has been making progress along the pavement while ignoring the pedestrians. And no, these were not "shared use" pavements. -- Roland Perry |
Bus driver complaint and OYBike
On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 08:13:11 GMT,
(Nick Cooper) wrote: I daresay if you looked properly you would see a fair few comments by me about motor vehicle drivers. However, I see just as many cyclists behaving like aresholes as car/van/lorry drivers, so I don't see why they should be excused comment. First, "not around here" - remember this is x-posted to uk.rec.cycling, whihc is where I live. Second, I am not aware of *anybody* on urc who advocates cyclists being excused from wrongdoing. We might be able to advance possible reasons why they do it (e.g. riding on the pavement because of fear of traffic and councils' blurring of the boundaries with their cans of paint), what we take exception to is bald statements that cyclists are lawless, when the clear evidence is that /all/ vehicular road users are lawless, and a good many non-vehicular ones as well. Why is that, I wonder? Because you have a self-selecting chip on your shoulder? Or not. We get a lot of cross-posts around here from people who clearly walk and drive but never cycle, who then berate cyclists for their behaviour without acknowledging the poor behaviour of other road users. One of the key contributors to road danger, in my view, is the pernicious idea that all the danger is caused by the behaviour of the nebulous "them" and that the things we do must necessarily be safe because they have not yet ended in catastrophe. Most pedestrians' representatives seem to have no trouble distinguishing between the scale of risk posed by cars and bicycles, and devote their efforts to controlling motor danger. We already know that you are about 200 times more likely to be killed /on the footway/ by a motor driver than by a cyclist, after all. Yes, I'm sure that's a huge consolation to any pedestrian who gets hit by a reckless cyclist. Of course, cars do not routinely deliberate travel on pavements, but many cyclists certainly do. So explain, then, how car drivers, even though they almost never venture on the footway, still manage to kill 200 times as many pedestrians on the footway as do cyclists? It suggests to me that the risk from cyclists is rather small, and would be better tackled by addressing the source of most danger, which is also conicidentally responsible for encouraging the cyclists onto the footway in the first place. If you can prove that I have never made an adverse comment about motor vehicle drivers, you might have a point, but since you can't, you're just coming up with the same self-selecting ******** again. You started a cyclist-baiting crosspost. Prior behaviour is irrelevant. It is a strange and inconsistent view you have. No, it's a strange an inconsistent defensive attitude you have. On the contrary, my attitude is wholly consistent: all road users should control their vehicles according to the law and the Highway Code. I believe that if everybody drove and rode according to the HC the roads would be much safer. Please jsutify the use of illegal cyclist behaviour to excuse illegal and potentially lethal bus driver behaviour. And where am I supposed to have done that, smartarse? Up through the thread history, that is how you started the whole thing. Really? I can't see any statement by me that "excuse illegal and potentially lethal bus driver behaviour." Ah, so you are making the pedantic point that you were merely singling out cyclists from the much greater causes of risk, for some reason known only to yourself. A difference which makes no difference in my view, but I will concede the point if you like. So you feel it's perfectly acceptable to use the behaviour of crap cyclists to excuse that of crap drivers, but not vice-versa? Fascinating. Since I haven't, then obviously not. Admit it - you don't even know what you're talkign about, do you? Indeed I do, having spent a lot of time researching the matter. Nice set of reasearch blinkers you have, obviously. The blinkers are to be found on those who use only one type of vehicle, a group which does not include me. Guy -- May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting. http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk 88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University |
Bus driver complaint and OYBike
On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 10:43:36 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote: I've often seen cars *on* the pavement, but rarely had difficulty with one that was *driving* along the pavement. There are bollards on the pavement at one set of lights near me to stop precisely this, because cars (and especially buses and goods vehicles) were routinely driving along the footway to bypass the queue at a set of lights. Guy -- May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting. http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk 88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University |
Bus driver complaint and OYBike
In article ,
Just zis Guy, you know? wrote: So explain, then, how car drivers, even though they almost never venture on the footway, still manage to kill 200 times as many pedestrians on the footway as do cyclists? I'm curious, now. How many cycles are there? How many cars? Perhaps vechical-hours would be a better measure - do you have any estimates for that? -- You dont have to be illiterate to use the Internet, but it help's. |
Bus driver complaint and OYBike
On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 07:20:32 +0000 (UTC), Mike Bristow
wrote: So explain, then, how car drivers, even though they almost never venture on the footway, still manage to kill 200 times as many pedestrians on the footway as do cyclists? I'm curious, now. How many cycles are there? How many cars? Perhaps vechical-hours would be a better measure - do you have any estimates for that? There is no measure available that I am aware of for the number of hours spent (or miles covered) riding or driving on the footway. The only data we have is anecdotal, viz: - all cyclists ride only on the footway, except when they drop onto the road in order to ride through a red light - no motorist ever drives on the footway, all those cars parked on the footway are carefully lifted there by their drivers And yet, amazingly, there are orders of magnitude more people killed on the footway by motor drivers than by cyclists. Baffling, innit? Guy -- May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting. http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk 88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University |
Bus driver complaint and OYBike
On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 07:20:32 +0000 (UTC) someone who may be Mike
Bristow wrote this:- So explain, then, how car drivers, even though they almost never venture on the footway, still manage to kill 200 times as many pedestrians on the footway as do cyclists? I'm curious, now. How many cycles are there? How many cars? Perhaps vechical-hours would be a better measure - do you have any estimates for that? It is irrelevant. From the point of view of a pedestrian what matters is how likely they are to be killed by a cyclist or killed by a motorist. That is the relative risk they are concerned with and the raw numbers demonstrate it. -- David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000. |
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