In article , John Rowland
wrote:
Secondly, as usual, nobody in the transport industry thinks
about what info passengers actually want. When I get to a bus
stop, I am not interested in the number and time of the next
three or four buses - I'm interested in the first and
possibly second arrival of the route I want. Even with only
one frequent route and one infrequent route, the current
system gives you a screen full of multiple occurences of the
frequent route and zilch info on the infrequent one.

Save that if buses 1, 2 and 3 are route 123 arriving in 3, 10 and
16 minutes you can infer that your 234 will not be coming for at
least 16 minutes. and if it's that far away then any information
is not likely to be very reliable. As to multiple indications of
the same route, I would agree that most people are only
interested in when the next bus is, but if there a buses in 2 and
10 minutes you might decide to pop across the road and come back
for the second one, whilst if it the only one shown is the 2
minute one you'll get on it.

In short, I can see it could have been done differently, but any
change would help some people and disadvantage others. For better
or worse the 1, 2, 3 next arrivals system is the one used on the
underground for years.

--
Tony Bryer

In article , wrote:
OK, "the next bus 13 will be here in (an estimated) 8 minutes"
--
this isn't what I wanted to know? Or isn't this what the
displays are telling me?

No, John's point, AIUI is that the display is telling you that a
12 will be here in one minute, a 33 in 3 minutes, and another 12
in 8 minutes, leaving you with no clue as to when the next 13 is.

--
Tony Bryer

Tony Bryer wrote to uk.transport.london on Thu, 30 Sep 2004:

In article , John Rowland
wrote:
Secondly, as usual, nobody in the transport industry thinks
about what info passengers actually want. When I get to a bus
stop, I am not interested in the number and time of the next
three or four buses - I'm interested in the first and
possibly second arrival of the route I want. Even with only
one frequent route and one infrequent route, the current
system gives you a screen full of multiple occurences of the
frequent route and zilch info on the infrequent one.

Save that if buses 1, 2 and 3 are route 123 arriving in 3, 10 and
16 minutes you can infer that your 234 will not be coming for at
least 16 minutes. and if it's that far away then any information
is not likely to be very reliable.

Save that half the time, a 234 appears with absolutely no indication
that it was going to.....
--
"Mrs Redboots"
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 26 September 2004

On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 12:14:31 +0100, Tony Bryer
wrote:

In article , John Rowland
wrote:
Secondly, as usual, nobody in the transport industry thinks
about what info passengers actually want. When I get to a bus
stop, I am not interested in the number and time of the next
three or four buses - I'm interested in the first and
possibly second arrival of the route I want. Even with only
one frequent route and one infrequent route, the current
system gives you a screen full of multiple occurences of the
frequent route and zilch info on the infrequent one.

I understand exactly what you mean and I agree that a comprehensive
system covering all routes should be provided. I'm not terribly in
favour of your proposal for painted route numbers and pods - it sounds
very like some of the tram displays in Amsterdam. It probably works for
a tram system where routes are typically fixed and vehicles always run
end to end. I think a display that shows the destination, route number
and mins left to wait is sufficient. The key is that you can trust the
system and that if something disrupts the system or the buses then
further info is provided. I haven't seen Countdown being used in that
way.

Save that if buses 1, 2 and 3 are route 123 arriving in 3, 10 and
16 minutes you can infer that your 234 will not be coming for at
least 16 minutes.

Sorry I disagree - at Aldwych the other day I missed a 76. I looked at
the display and no 76s were shown. However a few minutes later a 76
popped up on the screen as the third bus being 3 minutes away. For
whatever reason - either because it doesn't register until the bus
leaves Waterloo (3 mins away) or a beacon fault - buses can just appear
and disappear from the screens. More than once I have waited for an
invisible route 24 at Leicester Square station while other times none
are listed and yet one is coming down the road towards the stop.

and if it's that far away then any information
is not likely to be very reliable.

Don't understand this comment. Provided the system knows what time a bus
is due and the system communicates to all the vehicles it is entirely
possible to provide info on something 20 mins away. Happens all the time
on railways and at airports.

As to multiple indications of
the same route, I would agree that most people are only
interested in when the next bus is, but if there a buses in 2 and
10 minutes you might decide to pop across the road and come back
for the second one, whilst if it the only one shown is the 2
minute one you'll get on it.

Provided always that the information is reliable. At present you can't
really do that with Countdown information as routes are missing etc etc.

--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 12:14:31 +0100, Tony Bryer
wrote:



No, John's point, AIUI is that the display is telling you that a
12 will be here in one minute, a 33 in 3 minutes, and another 12
in 8 minutes, leaving you with no clue as to when the next 13 is.

Maybe because it doesn't know? The ones I've seen certainly have info
on more than 1 of each route.

On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 09:28:43 +0100, "Solar Penguin"
wrote:

Ok, I admit it. I'm biased. I don't travel by bus very often. Your system
might be better for frequent bus users, especially frequent users of only
one route, but the existing displays are more useful for everyone else.

The primitive (and pretty inaccurate) system that used to be in place
in Hamburg put the displays on the bus stop flag, like some of the
regional UK ones do. They have one "row" on the flag for each route
(because there aren't as many city-centre-penetrating routes as there
are anywhere in the UK) and that row has a printed representation of
the route and an HH:MM display in LCD form.

To display additional information, I've seen a similar system with an
extra "row" on the flag with a full-width scrolling LCD/LED. I think
that variety is in use in Preston, while Manchester are trialling a
Countdown-style system.

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
To e-mail use neil at the above domain

On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 13:17:03 +0100, Barry Salter
wrote:

I like the system they have in Southampton City Centre. Each group of
bus stops is given a series of letters (e.g. those by the station have
one prefix, the ones at the 'Above Bar' end of West Quay Shopping Centre
have another, etc), and associated monitors displaying the time the next
20 or so buses are due, what route they're on, their destination and
which stop they're calling at. If there's service disruption, that can
also be displayed on the appropriate monitors.

Such a system is in place in Milton Keynes, and it's pretty useful (if
lacking in real-time information - it's purely a timetable feed).
It's only really suited to large stops or bus stations, however, and a
CRT is, in general, less reliable and much more susceptible to
vandalism than an LED.

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
To e-mail use neil at the above domain

Tony Bryer wrote:
In article , wrote:
OK, "the next bus 13 will be here in (an estimated) 8 minutes"
--
this isn't what I wanted to know? Or isn't this what the
displays are telling me?

No, John's point, AIUI is that the display is telling you that a
12 will be here in one minute, a 33 in 3 minutes, and another 12
in 8 minutes, leaving you with no clue as to when the next 13 is.

Well, yes, but I've seen those displays swapping through a whole
series of eight or so bus/time combinations. It's true the route
13 I'm interested might not have been there, which I usually assume
is a secret code for "we have no idea when the next 13 is" ...
something no amount of display tech is going to fix. If you really
hate the no-13-info case, then I imagine it might be easy for the
displays to show "route 13, ??" (or perhaps a little infinity "oo"
symbol) -- no need for a completely different set of LEDs.

#Paul

On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 20:24:58 +0100, "John Rowland"
wrote:

Firstly, nearly all buses go to the end of the line, so the destination info
is a waste of a huge number of pixels.
Is that true for all routes? The destination also assures you that
you have the stop for the direction you want (not always obvious in a
one way system).

Secondly, as usual, nobody in the transport industry thinks about what info
passengers actually want. When I get to a bus stop, I am not interested in
the number and time of the next three or four buses - I'm interested in the
first and possibly second arrival of the route I want. Even with only one
frequent route and one infrequent route, the current system gives you a
screen full of multiple occurences of the frequent route and zilch info on
the infrequent one.

But you may be interested in the first bus to, say, Victoria,
regardless of route number. I would agree that displaying more than
two buses with the same route and destination is unnecessary.

So, what I want is a small pod for each route, with the number of the route
painted on the top third of the pod, the number of minutes to the first
arrival of that route as LEDs in the middle third, and the number of minutes
to the second arrival of that route as LEDs in the bottom third. If the bus
isn't going to the normal terminus for that route, the time should flash.
The same info would be on the back of the pod. Stack a load of them next to
each other for multiple routes. This would be cheaper and more informative
than the current system.

I think the current display is preferable as being self-explanatory -
desirable when ?50% of users are visitors.


--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes



--
Peter Lawrence

Dan Gravell wrote:
This is the thing: "when it is working". The biggest problem with it is
that seemingly every time that I walk to bus stops near where I live the
familiar "COUNTDOWN" display warns of another failure.
Plus there was the great time I saw a 319 due in 10 minutes... 9... 8...
3...2...1... went past the bus stop on the other side of the road. I
hope it was just co-incidence
*lol* I've had this experience, too. But over here in Stuttgart it
seems to me that these displays have a built-in Einstein's theory of
relativity: Sometimes one minute equals to 100 seconds, and sometimes
to even more (i.e. bus running at the speed of light?) ;-)

Torsten