On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 22:37:49 +0100, Spyke wrote:

There's also lots of silly differences, for example, I can buy an
all-zones travelcard with my Disabled railcard at a NationalRail station
and get one for a travelling companion at the same discounted price, yet
buying the same travelcard from a LUL station with the same railcard, I
can't get a discounted ticket for my companion.

What we need is for all LUL ticket offices to be brought up to the
standard of those on National Rail, able to sell any ticket that an NR
ticket office can sell with the same conditions and discounts.
Meanwhile, NR ticket offices should be able to sell through tickets to
any zone on LU.

When I asked TfL about this, they replied:

I can appreciate the points you raise. Indeed, I can confirm that Richmond
station, including the ticket office, is 'owned' by South West Trains so
only their ticketing range is available from this station. The situation is
the same at Gunnersbury and Kew Gardens stations. There are also other
similar situations elsewhere on the tube network. This can cause a problem
for bus ticket sales - either Bus Savers or Bus Passes - as National Rail
stations do not sell these tickets. All tube stations (owned by LU) do sell
the full range of bus tickets as do all high street Ticket Stops (eg:
newsagents). The latter are especially important in locations such as
Richmond, or any other National Rail-managed stations.

This is basically historical and down to the fact that we cannot provide a
fully integrated approach to transport in London as we are not responsible
for the National Rail network. The Mayor, and TfL, are keen to take more
control of the National Rail network in London to help improve these
services. The rationalisation of the fares systems of both networks would be
a major advantage should we be given these powers. I am sure part of this
work would involve the roll-out of the sales of bus tickets at these
locations to provide some uniformity across London.

The plans to hand control of London's rail services to TfL forms part of the
government's recent white paper on the future of the UK's rail network. We
hope to be handed more control in due course.

"Marc Brett" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 22:37:49 +0100, Spyke wrote:

There's also lots of silly differences, for example, I can buy an
all-zones travelcard with my Disabled railcard at a NationalRail station
and get one for a travelling companion at the same discounted price, yet
buying the same travelcard from a LUL station with the same railcard, I
can't get a discounted ticket for my companion.

What we need is for all LUL ticket offices to be brought up to the
standard of those on National Rail, able to sell any ticket that an NR
ticket office can sell with the same conditions and discounts.
Meanwhile, NR ticket offices should be able to sell through tickets to
any zone on LU.

When I asked TfL about this, they replied:

I can appreciate the points you raise. Indeed, I can confirm that Richmond
station, including the ticket office, is 'owned' by South West Trains so
only their ticketing range is available from this station. The situation
is
the same at Gunnersbury and Kew Gardens stations. There are also other
similar situations elsewhere on the tube network. This can cause a problem
for bus ticket sales - either Bus Savers or Bus Passes - as National Rail
stations do not sell these tickets. All tube stations (owned by LU) do
sell
the full range of bus tickets as do all high street Ticket Stops (eg:
newsagents). The latter are especially important in locations such as
Richmond, or any other National Rail-managed stations.

That sounds crazy to me - the only way in which Bus Savers and Bus Passes
can be sold at NR stations is for TfL to take them over? Do they think we
are really that naive? I suspect they are quite happy for the current
situation to prevail if it helps them make a case for taking over parts of
the NR network. Of course they could come to an arrangement with rail
operators to sell these tickets; they are clearly not trying very hard.

This is basically historical and down to the fact that we cannot provide a
fully integrated approach to transport in London as we are not responsible
for the National Rail network. The Mayor, and TfL, are keen to take more
control of the National Rail network in London to help improve these
services. The rationalisation of the fares systems of both networks would
be
a major advantage should we be given these powers. I am sure part of this
work would involve the roll-out of the sales of bus tickets at these
locations to provide some uniformity across London.

"The rationalisation of the fares systems of both networks would be
a major advantage" ...to TfL I assume. I am sure this will mean all sorts
of Cheap Day Deturn tickets and rail-only season tickets etc. disappear and
be replaced with higher 'zonal' fares or Travelcards.

I travel from a Zone 6 station to London by SET and pay for a rail-only
season ticket which is all I need, saving £50 per month on the cost of the
Z1-6 Travelcard.

I do not believe that the current fares system is that bad; the Travelcard
is the result of an integrated fares policy for the Greater London area.
Now they want yet more "simplification" of other fares, and that will simply
be to raise more revenue.

The plans to hand control of London's rail services to TfL forms part of
the
government's recent white paper on the future of the UK's rail network. We
hope to be handed more control in due course.

I bet they do.

Rich Mallard wrote:
"Marc Brett" wrote in message
...

On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 22:37:49 +0100, Spyke wrote:


There's also lots of silly differences, for example, I can buy an
all-zones travelcard with my Disabled railcard at a NationalRail station
and get one for a travelling companion at the same discounted price, yet
buying the same travelcard from a LUL station with the same railcard, I
can't get a discounted ticket for my companion.

What we need is for all LUL ticket offices to be brought up to the
standard of those on National Rail, able to sell any ticket that an NR
ticket office can sell with the same conditions and discounts.
Meanwhile, NR ticket offices should be able to sell through tickets to
any zone on LU.

When I asked TfL about this, they replied:

I can appreciate the points you raise. Indeed, I can confirm that Richmond
station, including the ticket office, is 'owned' by South West Trains so
only their ticketing range is available from this station. The situation

is

the same at Gunnersbury and Kew Gardens stations. There are also other
similar situations elsewhere on the tube network. This can cause a problem
for bus ticket sales - either Bus Savers or Bus Passes - as National Rail
stations do not sell these tickets. All tube stations (owned by LU) do

sell

the full range of bus tickets as do all high street Ticket Stops (eg:
newsagents). The latter are especially important in locations such as
Richmond, or any other National Rail-managed stations.


That sounds crazy to me - the only way in which Bus Savers and Bus Passes
can be sold at NR stations is for TfL to take them over? Do they think we
are really that naive? I suspect they are quite happy for the current
situation to prevail if it helps them make a case for taking over parts of
the NR network. Of course they could come to an arrangement with rail
operators to sell these tickets; they are clearly not trying very hard.


This is basically historical and down to the fact that we cannot provide a
fully integrated approach to transport in London as we are not responsible
for the National Rail network. The Mayor, and TfL, are keen to take more
control of the National Rail network in London to help improve these
services. The rationalisation of the fares systems of both networks would

be

a major advantage should we be given these powers. I am sure part of this
work would involve the roll-out of the sales of bus tickets at these
locations to provide some uniformity across London.


"The rationalisation of the fares systems of both networks would be
a major advantage" ...to TfL I assume. I am sure this will mean all sorts
of Cheap Day Deturn tickets and rail-only season tickets etc. disappear and
be replaced with higher 'zonal' fares or Travelcards.

I travel from a Zone 6 station to London by SET and pay for a rail-only
season ticket which is all I need, saving £50 per month on the cost of the
Z1-6 Travelcard.

I do not believe that the current fares system is that bad; the Travelcard
is the result of an integrated fares policy for the Greater London area.
Now they want yet more "simplification" of other fares, and that will simply
be to raise more revenue.

The Travelcard system works well enough for multiple trips but the
current fares fall down for integrated trips (i.e. Tube & rail) on
single journeys. For example, Gloucester Road to Wandsworth Road
involves a £1.60 Oyster Prepay journey in Zone 1 to Victoria followed by
a £1-ish journey on National Rail. Under the zonal system, that journey
would only cost £2.00.

Some sort of fares alteration would benefit a significant number of
users in inner London areas served by National Rail but not London
Underground. The abolition of CDRs isn't a requirement but CDR prices
could be meaningfully incorporated into a system which doesn't penalise
modal transfer. I believe TfL already have plans to introduce some sort
of discount via Oyster for combined bus/tube journeys.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

In article , Rich Mallard
writes
That sounds crazy to me - the only way in which Bus Savers and Bus Passes
can be sold at NR stations is for TfL to take them over?

No: the only way in which TfL can ensure that they are sold at NR
stations is to take them over.

You should be writing to SWT and asking *them* why they aren't selling
the tickets.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

"Colin" wrote in message ...
"Chris Henderson" wrote in message
...
When British Rail was created, what were the reasons for not making the
London Underground part of it?

Doesn't the existence of two very separate railway networks in London make
travelling in or across London harder (when separate fares and/or tickets
are needed), less well informed (due to relative lack of public knowledge
of the ability to make many journeys by NR instead of/as well as by LU, or
vice versa), and more expensive (due to missed economies of scale in
management, staffing and many other areas) than could be the case with one
merged network? What mitigating circumstances are there?

A metro system that is part of the National Rail network seems to work
perfectly well in Liverpool. Are there reasons why it wouldn't in London?

(Genuine questions from a puzzled non-expert.)

The split of LUL from NR does indeed impede integrated transport in London
due to the numerous ticketing differences and splits in responsibility. One
such inconvenience at the moment is the inability to use Oyster Pre-Pay on
NR services within Greater London.

The Government has recognised the need for further integration and is
proposing to give the Mayor of London / TfL greater powers over Suburban
Rail services in the Greater London area. This should result in a common
fare structure, integrated publicity / maps etc. and a common point of
reference for passengers.

Technically there are very many differences between the NR & LUL networks, &
the huge short term cost involved in trying to merge the structures will
probably mean they will always stay seperate, as any eventual savings will
never be realised within a single mayoral term or Government.

Surely, regardless of the politics, it is a good idea to keep
Network-Rail separate from London Underground. The two are actually
quite different types of business and the Underground actually carries
more passengers per day in London than Network Rail does over the
whole country - albeit over shorter distances in most cases. I
nevertheless welcome TfL getting more control over the surbarban
services which do need to be better integrated with the Underground.

If you gave Network Rail control over LUL tracks they just wouldn't be
able to cope with it - they have enough on their plate as it is.
Integrating the two organisations would be a pointless exercise.
Integrated transport is better served by co-operation between the
various organisations involved, not takeovers.

"Clive D. W. Feather" wrote in message ...
In article , Rich Mallard
writes
That sounds crazy to me - the only way in which Bus Savers and Bus Passes
can be sold at NR stations is for TfL to take them over?

No: the only way in which TfL can ensure that they are sold at NR
stations is to take them over.

You should be writing to SWT and asking *them* why they aren't selling
the tickets.

Or write to Alistair Darling and ask him to make it a condition of all
future rail franchises.

If anyone should take anyone over, NR should take over the tube. It is
ridiculous that I can't walk into a tube station and buy a Saver
Return to Leicester.

"Chris Henderson" wrote in message ...
A metro system that is part of the National Rail network seems to work
perfectly well in Liverpool. Are there reasons why it wouldn't in London?

But its not a metro system is it. Its just a load of old BR track lumped
together and rebranded as a metro. You could do the same to half a dozen
different suburban lines in cities around the country.

B2003

Boltar wrote to uk.transport.london on Mon, 4 Oct 2004:

"Chris Henderson" wrote in message
...
A metro system that is part of the National Rail network seems to work
perfectly well in Liverpool. Are there reasons why it wouldn't in London?

But its not a metro system is it. Its just a load of old BR track lumped
together and rebranded as a metro. You could do the same to half a dozen
different suburban lines in cities around the country.

They've done it in South London, where they call it the "Overground
Network" at the moment; at one stage it was South London Metro.
--
"Mrs Redboots"
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 26 September 2004

On 3 Oct 2004 13:21:29 -0700 James said...

If anyone should take anyone over, NR should take over the tube. It is
ridiculous that I can't walk into a tube station and buy a Saver
Return to Leicester.

Assuming of course facilities at Tube stations would be enhanced to
provide the (complex) sale of NR products. Imagine how two or three
ticket windows at say Leicester Square tube station would cope with
people wanting to book things like cheap Virgin Value fares in addition
to selling TfL tickets.

--
Phil Richards
London, UK
Home page: http://www.philrichards1.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk