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#11
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On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 22:37:49 +0100, Spyke wrote:
There's also lots of silly differences, for example, I can buy an all-zones travelcard with my Disabled railcard at a NationalRail station and get one for a travelling companion at the same discounted price, yet buying the same travelcard from a LUL station with the same railcard, I can't get a discounted ticket for my companion. What we need is for all LUL ticket offices to be brought up to the standard of those on National Rail, able to sell any ticket that an NR ticket office can sell with the same conditions and discounts. Meanwhile, NR ticket offices should be able to sell through tickets to any zone on LU. When I asked TfL about this, they replied: I can appreciate the points you raise. Indeed, I can confirm that Richmond station, including the ticket office, is 'owned' by South West Trains so only their ticketing range is available from this station. The situation is the same at Gunnersbury and Kew Gardens stations. There are also other similar situations elsewhere on the tube network. This can cause a problem for bus ticket sales - either Bus Savers or Bus Passes - as National Rail stations do not sell these tickets. All tube stations (owned by LU) do sell the full range of bus tickets as do all high street Ticket Stops (eg: newsagents). The latter are especially important in locations such as Richmond, or any other National Rail-managed stations. This is basically historical and down to the fact that we cannot provide a fully integrated approach to transport in London as we are not responsible for the National Rail network. The Mayor, and TfL, are keen to take more control of the National Rail network in London to help improve these services. The rationalisation of the fares systems of both networks would be a major advantage should we be given these powers. I am sure part of this work would involve the roll-out of the sales of bus tickets at these locations to provide some uniformity across London. The plans to hand control of London's rail services to TfL forms part of the government's recent white paper on the future of the UK's rail network. We hope to be handed more control in due course. |
#12
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"Marc Brett" wrote in message
... On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 22:37:49 +0100, Spyke wrote: There's also lots of silly differences, for example, I can buy an all-zones travelcard with my Disabled railcard at a NationalRail station and get one for a travelling companion at the same discounted price, yet buying the same travelcard from a LUL station with the same railcard, I can't get a discounted ticket for my companion. What we need is for all LUL ticket offices to be brought up to the standard of those on National Rail, able to sell any ticket that an NR ticket office can sell with the same conditions and discounts. Meanwhile, NR ticket offices should be able to sell through tickets to any zone on LU. When I asked TfL about this, they replied: I can appreciate the points you raise. Indeed, I can confirm that Richmond station, including the ticket office, is 'owned' by South West Trains so only their ticketing range is available from this station. The situation is the same at Gunnersbury and Kew Gardens stations. There are also other similar situations elsewhere on the tube network. This can cause a problem for bus ticket sales - either Bus Savers or Bus Passes - as National Rail stations do not sell these tickets. All tube stations (owned by LU) do sell the full range of bus tickets as do all high street Ticket Stops (eg: newsagents). The latter are especially important in locations such as Richmond, or any other National Rail-managed stations. That sounds crazy to me - the only way in which Bus Savers and Bus Passes can be sold at NR stations is for TfL to take them over? Do they think we are really that naive? I suspect they are quite happy for the current situation to prevail if it helps them make a case for taking over parts of the NR network. Of course they could come to an arrangement with rail operators to sell these tickets; they are clearly not trying very hard. This is basically historical and down to the fact that we cannot provide a fully integrated approach to transport in London as we are not responsible for the National Rail network. The Mayor, and TfL, are keen to take more control of the National Rail network in London to help improve these services. The rationalisation of the fares systems of both networks would be a major advantage should we be given these powers. I am sure part of this work would involve the roll-out of the sales of bus tickets at these locations to provide some uniformity across London. "The rationalisation of the fares systems of both networks would be a major advantage" ...to TfL I assume. I am sure this will mean all sorts of Cheap Day Deturn tickets and rail-only season tickets etc. disappear and be replaced with higher 'zonal' fares or Travelcards. I travel from a Zone 6 station to London by SET and pay for a rail-only season ticket which is all I need, saving £50 per month on the cost of the Z1-6 Travelcard. I do not believe that the current fares system is that bad; the Travelcard is the result of an integrated fares policy for the Greater London area. Now they want yet more "simplification" of other fares, and that will simply be to raise more revenue. The plans to hand control of London's rail services to TfL forms part of the government's recent white paper on the future of the UK's rail network. We hope to be handed more control in due course. I bet they do. |
#13
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Rich Mallard wrote:
"Marc Brett" wrote in message ... On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 22:37:49 +0100, Spyke wrote: There's also lots of silly differences, for example, I can buy an all-zones travelcard with my Disabled railcard at a NationalRail station and get one for a travelling companion at the same discounted price, yet buying the same travelcard from a LUL station with the same railcard, I can't get a discounted ticket for my companion. What we need is for all LUL ticket offices to be brought up to the standard of those on National Rail, able to sell any ticket that an NR ticket office can sell with the same conditions and discounts. Meanwhile, NR ticket offices should be able to sell through tickets to any zone on LU. When I asked TfL about this, they replied: I can appreciate the points you raise. Indeed, I can confirm that Richmond station, including the ticket office, is 'owned' by South West Trains so only their ticketing range is available from this station. The situation is the same at Gunnersbury and Kew Gardens stations. There are also other similar situations elsewhere on the tube network. This can cause a problem for bus ticket sales - either Bus Savers or Bus Passes - as National Rail stations do not sell these tickets. All tube stations (owned by LU) do sell the full range of bus tickets as do all high street Ticket Stops (eg: newsagents). The latter are especially important in locations such as Richmond, or any other National Rail-managed stations. That sounds crazy to me - the only way in which Bus Savers and Bus Passes can be sold at NR stations is for TfL to take them over? Do they think we are really that naive? I suspect they are quite happy for the current situation to prevail if it helps them make a case for taking over parts of the NR network. Of course they could come to an arrangement with rail operators to sell these tickets; they are clearly not trying very hard. This is basically historical and down to the fact that we cannot provide a fully integrated approach to transport in London as we are not responsible for the National Rail network. The Mayor, and TfL, are keen to take more control of the National Rail network in London to help improve these services. The rationalisation of the fares systems of both networks would be a major advantage should we be given these powers. I am sure part of this work would involve the roll-out of the sales of bus tickets at these locations to provide some uniformity across London. "The rationalisation of the fares systems of both networks would be a major advantage" ...to TfL I assume. I am sure this will mean all sorts of Cheap Day Deturn tickets and rail-only season tickets etc. disappear and be replaced with higher 'zonal' fares or Travelcards. I travel from a Zone 6 station to London by SET and pay for a rail-only season ticket which is all I need, saving £50 per month on the cost of the Z1-6 Travelcard. I do not believe that the current fares system is that bad; the Travelcard is the result of an integrated fares policy for the Greater London area. Now they want yet more "simplification" of other fares, and that will simply be to raise more revenue. The Travelcard system works well enough for multiple trips but the current fares fall down for integrated trips (i.e. Tube & rail) on single journeys. For example, Gloucester Road to Wandsworth Road involves a £1.60 Oyster Prepay journey in Zone 1 to Victoria followed by a £1-ish journey on National Rail. Under the zonal system, that journey would only cost £2.00. Some sort of fares alteration would benefit a significant number of users in inner London areas served by National Rail but not London Underground. The abolition of CDRs isn't a requirement but CDR prices could be meaningfully incorporated into a system which doesn't penalise modal transfer. I believe TfL already have plans to introduce some sort of discount via Oyster for combined bus/tube journeys. -- Dave Arquati Imperial College, SW7 www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London |
#14
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In article , Rich Mallard
writes That sounds crazy to me - the only way in which Bus Savers and Bus Passes can be sold at NR stations is for TfL to take them over? No: the only way in which TfL can ensure that they are sold at NR stations is to take them over. You should be writing to SWT and asking *them* why they aren't selling the tickets. -- Clive D.W. Feather | Home: Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work: Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is: |
#15
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"Colin" wrote in message ...
"Chris Henderson" wrote in message ... When British Rail was created, what were the reasons for not making the London Underground part of it? Doesn't the existence of two very separate railway networks in London make travelling in or across London harder (when separate fares and/or tickets are needed), less well informed (due to relative lack of public knowledge of the ability to make many journeys by NR instead of/as well as by LU, or vice versa), and more expensive (due to missed economies of scale in management, staffing and many other areas) than could be the case with one merged network? What mitigating circumstances are there? A metro system that is part of the National Rail network seems to work perfectly well in Liverpool. Are there reasons why it wouldn't in London? (Genuine questions from a puzzled non-expert.) The split of LUL from NR does indeed impede integrated transport in London due to the numerous ticketing differences and splits in responsibility. One such inconvenience at the moment is the inability to use Oyster Pre-Pay on NR services within Greater London. The Government has recognised the need for further integration and is proposing to give the Mayor of London / TfL greater powers over Suburban Rail services in the Greater London area. This should result in a common fare structure, integrated publicity / maps etc. and a common point of reference for passengers. Technically there are very many differences between the NR & LUL networks, & the huge short term cost involved in trying to merge the structures will probably mean they will always stay seperate, as any eventual savings will never be realised within a single mayoral term or Government. Surely, regardless of the politics, it is a good idea to keep Network-Rail separate from London Underground. The two are actually quite different types of business and the Underground actually carries more passengers per day in London than Network Rail does over the whole country - albeit over shorter distances in most cases. I nevertheless welcome TfL getting more control over the surbarban services which do need to be better integrated with the Underground. If you gave Network Rail control over LUL tracks they just wouldn't be able to cope with it - they have enough on their plate as it is. Integrating the two organisations would be a pointless exercise. Integrated transport is better served by co-operation between the various organisations involved, not takeovers. |
#16
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"Clive D. W. Feather" wrote in message ...
In article , Rich Mallard writes That sounds crazy to me - the only way in which Bus Savers and Bus Passes can be sold at NR stations is for TfL to take them over? No: the only way in which TfL can ensure that they are sold at NR stations is to take them over. You should be writing to SWT and asking *them* why they aren't selling the tickets. Or write to Alistair Darling and ask him to make it a condition of all future rail franchises. |
#17
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If anyone should take anyone over, NR should take over the tube. It is
ridiculous that I can't walk into a tube station and buy a Saver Return to Leicester. |
#18
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"Chris Henderson" wrote in message ...
A metro system that is part of the National Rail network seems to work perfectly well in Liverpool. Are there reasons why it wouldn't in London? But its not a metro system is it. Its just a load of old BR track lumped together and rebranded as a metro. You could do the same to half a dozen different suburban lines in cities around the country. B2003 |
#19
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Boltar wrote to uk.transport.london on Mon, 4 Oct 2004:
"Chris Henderson" wrote in message ... A metro system that is part of the National Rail network seems to work perfectly well in Liverpool. Are there reasons why it wouldn't in London? But its not a metro system is it. Its just a load of old BR track lumped together and rebranded as a metro. You could do the same to half a dozen different suburban lines in cities around the country. They've done it in South London, where they call it the "Overground Network" at the moment; at one stage it was South London Metro. -- "Mrs Redboots" http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/ Website updated 26 September 2004 |
#20
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On 3 Oct 2004 13:21:29 -0700 James said...
If anyone should take anyone over, NR should take over the tube. It is ridiculous that I can't walk into a tube station and buy a Saver Return to Leicester. Assuming of course facilities at Tube stations would be enhanced to provide the (complex) sale of NR products. Imagine how two or three ticket windows at say Leicester Square tube station would cope with people wanting to book things like cheap Virgin Value fares in addition to selling TfL tickets. -- Phil Richards London, UK Home page: http://www.philrichards1.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk |
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