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A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut)
John Rowland wrote:
"Mark Brader" wrote in message ... Benjamin Nunn: I thought the W&C tunnels were big enough to take regular stock... John Rowland: No, in fact they had to be enlarged slightly to take the 92 stock. CULG gives the Waterloo & City Line tunnel diameter as 3.70 m (12' 1.75"), which if I remember correctly was taken from Rails Through the Clay. This is *larger* than the nominal 11' 8.25" of the Central Line, so what had to be enlarged? The metal ribs (I don't know the correct name) on the inside of the rings had to be trimmed on some of the curves. This may be more to do with the length of the 92 stock than their width, or it may be to do with their kinematic envelope differing from that of the previous stock. Perhaps the Central Line already used larger rings on some or all of the curves. The degree of curvature is also relevant, i.e. the tighter the curve the further the car overhangs the track. IIRC some of the track had to be realigned to take the 92 stock. |
A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut)
In message , at
13:20:33 on Wed, 13 Oct 2004, TheOneKEA remarked: Is there anything preventing the third side of the triangle from being restored? It was closed in 1916, so less likely to be restorable. Perhaps someone knows if the tunnel's still even there. -- Roland Perry |
A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut)
On Wed, 13 Oct 2004, John Rowland wrote:
"Tom Anderson" wrote in message ... On 13 Oct 2004, Boltar wrote: "Andrew" wrote in message ... how about connecting the Northern City / WAGN line with the Thameslink spur into Moorgate, and restoring the 3rd curve at Farringdon Junction making it a triangular junction again. I suspect the gradiants and curves required to join the 2 would be too severe unless a new line split off from blackfriars since from Barbican you'd have to drop about 20 metres and do a 90 degree turn More like a 120 degree turn, i think. in the space of 1/4 mile. Think outside the box! Don't do it with a curve to the north, do with with a curve to the south - a spiral tunnel heading down and round. Not only does that give you the space to do it, but it spreads the height change out over a greater distance. And it could call at Moorgate twice, just in case you missed your stop the first time. If it's good enough for Monument (on the Tyne & Wear Metro), it's dashed well good enough for Moorgate! tom -- I'm angry, but not Milk and Cheese angry. -- Mike Froggatt |
A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut)
On 13 Oct 2004, Alistair Bell wrote:
(Jim Brown) wrote in message . com... If the Bank of England sacrificed its vaults (Very little use for them now, with the gold sold off) and Cannon Street St was put underground (Plus a new tunnel under the Thames), would a tunnel connecting Moorgate and London Bridge be feasible? Or do the tube lines around there make it impossible? I'd be more interested in the feasibility of turning the Northern City into a DLR line to East Finchley... As soon as we started talking about abandoned track, i knew it wouldn't be long until someone started talking light rail, even if it ia on a different line ... back on the subject of the Midland City Line (aka Widened Lines), maybe you could get some Cross River Transit action down there, via a crafty tunnel from Holborn. That would be actually be pretty useful - it would link the southern half of XRT to the City. tom -- I'm angry, but not Milk and Cheese angry. -- Mike Froggatt |
A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut)
Tom Anderson wrote:
On 13 Oct 2004, Jim Brown wrote: "R.C. Payne" wrote in message ... Solar Penguin wrote: --- Jim Brown said: If the Bank of England sacrificed its vaults (Very little use for them now, with the gold sold off) and Cannon Street St was put underground (Plus a new tunnel under the Thames), would a tunnel connecting Moorgate and London Bridge be feasible? Or do the tube lines around there make it impossible? Interesting idea, Jim... There's also the problem of the slope down from the high-level platforms at London Bridge to below the level of the river bed. Especially since the line also has to curve from east-west to north-south as it drops. Surely the way to make this work is to build new tube-level platforms at Cannon St and London Bridge, and break the surface east of London Bridge? Of course that would increase your price by just a few quid. Well yes I kind of presumed underground platforms at London Bridge but I didnt make that explicit. But as a ball park figure and assuming you could slot it into the London Bridge rebuild I'm guessing it would cost £3/4 billion. Of course the question then is which line(s) south of the river would be best to used for a new cross-london service? Dartford. What i'd do is surface as soon as possible onto the northernmost pair of tracks heading into (or out of) London Bridge, then run down to Lewisham (via a new station at the proposed Deptford Park ELL station), (ears prick up at sound of possible project) Do you have any details on that proposal? (snip) In other news, are Crossrail seriously not proposing a station at London City Airport? Is that what Custom House is supposed to be for? I think we discussed this, but most Crossrail stuff goes right over my head. Crossrail will use the NLL alignment from Custom House to near North Woolwich - so it will actually pass through Silvertown station. However since they're it doesn't appear on any of their plans, I presume it is scheduled for closure - especially given that it is around 7 mins' walk from the airport whereas the DLR's new station will be right outside the terminal building. Nevertheless, since Crossrail interchange with the DLR will be at Custom House and not Canning Town, getting to LCY from Crossrail will either involve changing at Stratford from the west/northeast or catching SET to Woolwich Arsenal from the southeast. I'm not sure exactly why CLRL want to close Silvertown station. Could be for engineering reasons, although the portal for their Gallions Reach tunnel should be much further east. It might just be to speed up journey times through an area which will be well-served by the new DLR branch, which will eventually have trains running direct between Stratford - Canning Town - City Airport - Woolwich Arsenal. -- Dave Arquati Imperial College, SW7 www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London |
A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut)
TheOneKEA wrote:
"Andrew" wrote in message ... "Jim Brown" wrote in message .com... If the Bank of England sacrificed its vaults (Very little use for them now, with the gold sold off) and Cannon Street St was put underground (Plus a new tunnel under the Thames), would a tunnel connecting Moorgate and London Bridge be feasible? Or do the tube lines around there make it impossible? This is highly speculative and I'm sure the engineering feats involved would be considerable, but how about connecting the Northern City / WAGN line with the Thameslink spur into Moorgate, and restoring the 3rd curve at Farringdon Junction making it a triangular junction again. Would create more direct North-South journey possibilities without building a second tunnel. However after Thameslink 2000 is complete this might prove rather superfluous anyway as there will be a direct route from the ECML through the new Kings Cross Thameslink station and on to Farringdon. It seems a shame to abandon the Moorgate Thameslink route though. Andrew Who says it has to be abandoned? If Farringdon Junction does need to be lifted and replaced with plain track in order to extend the platforms, what's to stop the third leg of the Thameslink Triangle, from City Thameslink to Barbican, from being restored in response? This way, the old Ludgate Hill/Holborn Viaduct scenario is recreated: Thameslink gets the through route to Midland Road, as well as the alternate terminus at Moorgate if things go up the wall; anybody who wants to go to Moorgate from Midland Road can use the Met from Farringdon. Has this ever been proposed? If it hasn't, how could something so obvious be missed? Is there anything preventing the third side of the triangle from being restored? I can understand why TL trains from the north to Moorgate are useful, but many passengers coming from the south already have the option of getting a train into Cannon Street from London Bridge, and Cannon St is arguably closer to more City destinations than Moorgate. Running more trains through the Snow Hill tunnel will probably put an extra strain on even the TL2K signalling system, leading to unreliability (more so than existing TL services). Incidentally now that TL is split in two with northbound services starting at St Pancras, I'm getting the impression that it's more reliable... -- Dave Arquati Imperial College, SW7 www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London |
A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut)
On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 16:53:18 +0100, "Sir Benjamin Nunn"
wrote: I've only had about two legitimate causes to use it in my life. But I can see why it might be popular with some very very conformist passengers who live in Surrey, wear the same suit every day, and work 9-5 in the City. Well I've never worn a suit to work - never worked 9-5 when I could help it and never lived in Surrey. But I did use the W&C for many years. |
A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut)
On 13 Oct 2004 22:39:49 GMT, Robin May
wrote: You must be mistaken. The Waterloo and City line definitely still has trains painted in NSE livery. It must have some that aren't then as well, because the trains I've traveled on definitely weren't NSE livery |
A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut)
In message , k
writes On 13 Oct 2004 22:39:49 GMT, Robin May wrote: You must be mistaken. The Waterloo and City line definitely still has trains painted in NSE livery. It must have some that aren't then as well, because the trains I've traveled on definitely weren't NSE livery I've travelled on both, so presumably there some sets with NSE livery and some with LU roundels over the previous livery. (Note that the stock still has the blue doors and fronts from NSE days as opposed to the red doors and fronts that are standard elsewhere on LU). -- Spyke Address is valid, but messages are treated as junk. The opinions I express do not necessarily reflect those of the educational institution from which I post. |
A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut)
"Dave Arquati" wrote in message
... In other news, are Crossrail seriously not proposing a station at London City Airport? Is that what Custom House is supposed to be for? I think we discussed this, but most Crossrail stuff goes right over my head. Crossrail will use the NLL alignment from Custom House to near North Woolwich - so it will actually pass through Silvertown station. However since they're it doesn't appear on any of their plans, I presume it is scheduled for closure - especially given that it is around 7 mins' walk from the airport whereas the DLR's new station will be right outside the terminal building. Nevertheless, since Crossrail interchange with the DLR will be at Custom House and not Canning Town, getting to LCY from Crossrail will either involve changing at Stratford from the west/northeast or catching SET to Woolwich Arsenal from the southeast. I'm not sure exactly why CLRL want to close Silvertown station. Could be for engineering reasons, although the portal for their Gallions Reach tunnel should be much further east. It might just be to speed up journey times through an area which will be well-served by the new DLR branch, which will eventually have trains running direct between Stratford - Canning Town - City Airport - Woolwich Arsenal. My thoughts exactly. I can't see why they won't put in a station for LCY, given that it runs so close and the only other way from there would be DLR to Bank (once the North Woolwich extension opens) which would take forever. Angus |
A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut)
On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 17:07:31 +0000 (UTC), "Piccadilly Pilot"
wrote: Sir Benjamin Nunn wrote: Hmmm.... I thought the W&C tunnels were big enough to take regular stock... Thought I had vague memories of NSE trains running on the line before the management went over to LUL, but could well be wrong. They use similar stock to that in use on the Central. When delivered it was in NSE livery, as was the previous 1941 stock IIRC. I rather think the previous stock (1940 stock to be precise) was delivered in Southern Railway Malachite Green. It would only have been painted into NSE livery at the very end of its life. ( know that's what you meant, but it isn't what you said). Incidentally, the original W&C stock was painted salmon pink! -- Bill Hayles http://www.rossrail.com |
A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut)
"Dave Arquati" wrote in message ... Crossrail will use the NLL alignment from Custom House to near North Woolwich - so it will actually pass through Silvertown station. However since they're it doesn't appear on any of their plans, I presume it is scheduled for closure - especially given that it is around 7 mins' walk from the airport whereas the DLR's new station will be right outside the terminal building. I'm not sure exactly why CLRL want to close Silvertown station. Could be for engineering reasons, although the portal for their Gallions Reach tunnel should be much further east. It might just be to speed up journey times through an area which will be well-served by the new DLR branch, which will eventually have trains running direct between Stratford - Canning Town - City Airport - Woolwich Arsenal. I asked about this at a recent Crossrail information display, and was told that Crossrail examined the possibility of retaining Silvertown station, but there was no business case (even on a cost benefit basis). The station is too far from the LCY terminal for sensible interchange (DLR from Central London, or from Woolwich Arsenal for connection from SET stations makes more sense), it would be expensive to upgrade the station for Crossrail (lengthen platforms, make it accessible, etc), and there was a suggestion that the trackbed would be lowered. Crossrail will use both tracks of the Connaught tunnel, come up to ground level, and then descend again for the Gallions Reach tunnel. Peter |
A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut)
"Dave Arquati" wrote in message ... Has this ever been proposed? If it hasn't, how could something so obvious be missed? Is there anything preventing the third side of the triangle from being restored? I can understand why TL trains from the north to Moorgate are useful, but many passengers coming from the south already have the option of getting a train into Cannon Street from London Bridge, and Cannon St is arguably closer to more City destinations than Moorgate. Running more trains through the Snow Hill tunnel will probably put an extra strain on even the TL2K signalling system, leading to unreliability (more so than existing TL services). Apparently when the LCDR used to run trains through to Moorgate (because of an agreement they had with the Metropolitan Railway, the trains were empty betond Ludgate Hill - because of the unreliablity, passengers found it was quicker to walk from Ludgate Hill to their offiuces, than to stay on the train to Moorgate. Passengers from TL stations for Moorgate can of course change at Farringdon on to very frequent LUL trains. Peter |
A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut)
"k" wrote in message ... I've only had about two legitimate causes to use it in my life. But I can see why it might be popular with some very very conformist passengers who live in Surrey, wear the same suit every day, and work 9-5 in the City. Well I've never worn a suit to work - never worked 9-5 when I could help it and never lived in Surrey. But I did use the W&C for many years. As did the other W&C drivers, I suspect. BTN |
A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut)
k wrote to uk.transport.london on Thu, 14 Oct 2004:
On 13 Oct 2004 22:39:49 GMT, Robin May wrote: You must be mistaken. The Waterloo and City line definitely still has trains painted in NSE livery. It must have some that aren't then as well, because the trains I've traveled on definitely weren't NSE livery Thank you! I thought I wasn't going totally mad.... -- "Mrs Redboots" http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/ Website updated 26 September 2004 |
A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut)
Bill Hayles writes:
I rather think the previous [W&C] stock (1940 stock to be precise) was delivered in Southern Railway Malachite Green. It would only have been painted into NSE livery at the very end of its life. And in between, it was (naturally) in British Rail blue. -- Mark Brader, Toronto "Sex on trains, of course." -- Clive Feather |
A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut)
On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 15:29:44 +0100, "Sir Benjamin Nunn"
wrote: As did the other W&C drivers, I suspect. other? I've never driven a train in my life! |
A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut)
"Tom Anderson" wrote in message ... On Wed, 13 Oct 2004, Sir Benjamin Nunn wrote: "David E. Belcher" wrote in message om... snip Anyway, as has been pointed out, th W&C is tube gauge, not mainline, so would need to be widened. Visionless naysayers protest that this would be impossible, but i demur - that's exactly what, i read in CULG, was done to the City & South London Railway when it became part of the Northern Line. They even did much of the widening at night, with trains still running in the day! Until they hit a gas main and exploded it, anyway. Errrm, of course you don't actually need to widen the tunnel at all. You hand over the new extended line to LUL and they run it with tube stock... -- Cheers, Steve. Change from jealous to sad to reply. |
A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut)
k wrote the following in:
On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 15:29:44 +0100, "Sir Benjamin Nunn" wrote: As did the other W&C drivers, I suspect. other? I've never driven a train in my life! He seems to have the bizarre idea that because he doesn't use something it must be useless. -- message by the incredible Robin May. "The British don't like successful people" - said by British failures Who is Abi Titmuss? What is she? Why is she famous? http://robinmay.fotopic.net |
A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut)
On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 23:39:10 +0100, TP wrote:
(Jim Brown) wrote: If the Bank of England sacrificed its vaults (Very little use for them now, with the gold sold off) and Cannon Street St was put underground (Plus a new tunnel under the Thames), would a tunnel connecting Moorgate and London Bridge be feasible? Or do the tube lines around there make it impossible? Unfortunately, you started with a false premise. You can be assured that the Bank of England has plenty of reasons to use its vaults. In the days of higher gold reserves, the gold was in any case mostly held elsewhere. The Gold has indeed, by and large, been removed several years ago, offshore thanks to the EU. However, the vaults are still heavily used, mainly as office space. The BoE has removed itself from several buildings in and about the city, Bank Buildings, Exchange building (East of St Pauls) etc and shoe horned its operations into HO building (Threadneedle St to us) However, it must be remembered that one piece of paper can, quite literally be worth all the tea in China, so Security is still very much paramount there. So much so that really I suspect that I should not be joining in on this thread :-( Now the main thrust of its security argument is that it is on an island, with roads right round it and NO underground works under, except for building services, all contained within the C18/C19 curtain wall, breached only by some 3"or so thick metal doors. Updated by a very modern Citadel type security system. AIUI the Northern Line passes to the west of the Bank site itself and then down King Billy Street, which is over the Bank platforms. So I think that any thought of tunneling work under the Bank site would be met with a very erect middle finger. Keith J Chesworth www.unseenlondon.co.uk www.blackpooltram.co.uk www.happysnapper.com www.boilerbill.com - main site www.amerseyferry.co.uk |
A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut)
"Solar Penguin" wrote in message ...
--- Alistair Bell said: I'd be more interested in the feasibility of turning the Northern City into a DLR line to East Finchley... the tunnelling would be much shorter (but again with vault issues) And also the issue of getting the DLR from directly below the Northern line at Bank to directly above it at Moorgate. Apart from that, it's a great idea, Alistair. It would relieve overcowding of the Northern line's City and Edgware And it would give people in Essex Rd and Drayton Pk a proper weekend/evening service for the first time in ages! I rather suspect that if the side-to-side issues can be resolved, the vertical issues really won't be too bad. DLR stock can manage some pretty impressive gradients -- as you can see coming up from Bank to Royal Mint Street Junction! Also, the Northern Line crosses over itself between Bank and Moorgate, which again suggests that there's vertical room to ascend. Whether there's horizontal room is indeed the issue, but maybe there's a little room west of the Northern Line. |
A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut)
On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 14:30:11 +0100, Spyke wrote:
In message , k writes On 13 Oct 2004 22:39:49 GMT, Robin May wrote: You must be mistaken. The Waterloo and City line definitely still has trains painted in NSE livery. It must have some that aren't then as well, because the trains I've traveled on definitely weren't NSE livery I've travelled on both, so presumably there some sets with NSE livery and some with LU roundels over the previous livery. (Note that the stock still has the blue doors and fronts from NSE days as opposed to the red doors and fronts that are standard elsewhere on LU). If you look on the backs of the cars you will find the original 483 xxx unit numbers. PRAR -- http://www.i.am/prar/ As long as people will accept crap, it will be financially profitable to dispense it. Dick Cavett Please reply to the newsgroup. That is why it exists. NB Anti-spam measures in force - If you must email me use the Reply to address and not |
A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut)
PRAR wrote to uk.transport.london on Thu, 14 Oct 2004:
I've travelled on both, so presumably there some sets with NSE livery and some with LU roundels over the previous livery. (Note that the stock still has the blue doors and fronts from NSE days as opposed to the red doors and fronts that are standard elsewhere on LU). If you look on the backs of the cars you will find the original 483 xxx unit numbers. I thought the stock was identical to the '95 stock on the Central Line? -- "Mrs Redboots" http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/ Website updated 26 September 2004 |
A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut)
In message , at 13:16:43 on Fri,
15 Oct 2004, Annabel Smyth remarked: I thought the stock was identical to the '95 stock on the Central Line? It started off identical, but both fleets have now diverged in somewhat different directions, due to different operating environments. -- Roland Perry |
Waterloo & City (was A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut))
"Roland Perry" wrote in message
.uk... In message , at 13:16:43 on Fri, 15 Oct 2004, Annabel Smyth remarked: I thought the stock was identical to the '95 stock on the Central Line? (should be 92 stock) It started off identical, but both fleets have now diverged in somewhat different directions, due to different operating environments. ISTR the number of modifications performed on the Central fleet only, plus the number of modifications performed on the W&C fleet only, is over a hundred. -- John Rowland - Spamtrapped Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001 http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood. That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line - It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes |
A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut)
On Thu, 14 Oct 2004, Steve Dulieu wrote:
"Tom Anderson" wrote in message ... Anyway, as has been pointed out, th W&C is tube gauge, not mainline, so would need to be widened. Visionless naysayers protest that this would be impossible, but i demur - that's exactly what, i read in CULG, was done to the City & South London Railway when it became part of the Northern Line. They even did much of the widening at night, with trains still running in the day! Until they hit a gas main and exploded it, anyway. Errrm, of course you don't actually need to widen the tunnel at all. You hand over the new extended line to LUL and they run it with tube stock... This is true. However, it would be a bit of a waste of all that nice wide-gauge line to use it for titchy little midget trains: bigger trains have greater capacity and are a lot more passenger-friendly. This is especially important if we're talking about running long-distance services along this route, as Sir Benjy was. tom -- there is not much call for a Chinese George Michael |
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