A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut)
 

If the Bank of England sacrificed its vaults (Very little use for them
now, with the gold sold off) and Cannon Street St was put underground
(Plus a new tunnel under the Thames), would a tunnel connecting
Moorgate and London Bridge be feasible? Or do the tube lines around
there make it impossible?

A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut)
 

--- Jim Brown said:

If the Bank of England sacrificed its vaults (Very little use for
them now, with the gold sold off) and Cannon Street St was
put underground (Plus a new tunnel under the Thames), would
a tunnel connecting Moorgate and London Bridge be feasible?
Or do the tube lines around there make it impossible?

Interesting idea, Jim... There's also the problem of the slope down
from the high-level platforms at London Bridge to below the level of the
river bed. Especially since the line also has to curve from east-west
to north-south as it drops.

A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut)
 

Solar Penguin wrote:
--- Jim Brown said:


If the Bank of England sacrificed its vaults (Very little use for
them now, with the gold sold off) and Cannon Street St was
put underground (Plus a new tunnel under the Thames), would
a tunnel connecting Moorgate and London Bridge be feasible?
Or do the tube lines around there make it impossible?


Interesting idea, Jim... There's also the problem of the slope down
from the high-level platforms at London Bridge to below the level of the
river bed. Especially since the line also has to curve from east-west
to north-south as it drops.

Surely the way to make this work is to build new tube-level platforms at
Cannon St and London Bridge, and break the surface east of London
Bridge? Of course that would increase your price by just a few quid.

Robin

A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut)
 

Jim Brown wrote:
If the Bank of England sacrificed its vaults (Very little use for them
now, with the gold sold off) and Cannon Street St was put underground
(Plus a new tunnel under the Thames), would a tunnel connecting
Moorgate and London Bridge be feasible? Or do the tube lines around
there make it impossible?

I seem to recall that in the post war plans for Londons Transport, one
of the new lines to be built was an extension of the Northern City line
from Moorgate, through the City and to new underground platforms at
London Bridge and linking with the Crystal Palace (High Level) branch
line of the SR.

A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut)
 

"Jim Brown" wrote in message
om...
If the Bank of England sacrificed its vaults (Very little use for them
now, with the gold sold off) and Cannon Street St was put underground
(Plus a new tunnel under the Thames), would a tunnel connecting
Moorgate and London Bridge be feasible? Or do the tube lines around
there make it impossible?

This is highly speculative and I'm sure the engineering feats involved
would be considerable, but how about connecting the Northern City / WAGN
line with the Thameslink spur into Moorgate, and restoring the 3rd curve at
Farringdon Junction making it a triangular junction again. Would create
more direct North-South journey possibilities without building a second
tunnel. However after Thameslink 2000 is complete this might prove rather
superfluous anyway as there will be a direct route from the ECML through the
new Kings Cross Thameslink station and on to Farringdon. It seems a shame
to abandon the Moorgate Thameslink route though.

Andrew

A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut)
 

A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut)
 

In message , at 22:10:48 on Tue,
12 Oct 2004, Andrew remarked:

It seems a shame to abandon the Moorgate Thameslink route though.

But it has to be closed to be able to extend the platform at Farringdon.
Of course, a "Grand Plan" could also include rebuilding that station to
reconfigure all the various junctions and level changes.
--
Roland Perry

A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut)
 

John Ruddy wrote in message ...
Jim Brown wrote:
If the Bank of England sacrificed its vaults (Very little use for them
now, with the gold sold off) and Cannon Street St was put underground
(Plus a new tunnel under the Thames), would a tunnel connecting
Moorgate and London Bridge be feasible? Or do the tube lines around
there make it impossible?

I seem to recall that in the post war plans for Londons Transport, one
of the new lines to be built was an extension of the Northern City line
from Moorgate, through the City and to new underground platforms at
London Bridge and linking with the Crystal Palace (High Level) branch
line of the SR.

There were certainly thoughts of extending from Moorgate to serve a
new station (i.e. not meeting up with other lines at Bank) near the
Bank of England itself many years ago, and a few yards of tunnel were
actually dug. This idea never really got past the drawing board stage,
though.

David E. Belcher

A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut)
 

On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 08:06:35 +0100 someone who may be Roland Perry
wrote this:-

It seems a shame to abandon the Moorgate Thameslink route though.

But it has to be closed to be able to extend the platform at Farringdon.

It does not have to be closed. The plan is to close it because,
apparently, of a RI diktat regarding level platforms. The same RI
seem perfectly happy with passengers getting off trams in Manchester
and onto the ramp of the (few remaining) profiled platforms. I have
yet to hear of a huge number of injuries as a result of this.

Note that the RI are sometimes used as an excuse by some people on
the railways now. Their "diktat" may be nothing of the sort and the
problem is dumbed down railway staff. However, note the word
"sometimes", there are examples of a stupid approach by the RI (one
of which has been highlighted in Modern Railways).


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.


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A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut)
 

"Andrew" wrote in message ...
This is highly speculative and I'm sure the engineering feats involved
would be considerable, but how about connecting the Northern City / WAGN
line with the Thameslink spur into Moorgate, and restoring the 3rd curve at
Farringdon Junction making it a triangular junction again. Would create

I suspect the gradiants and curves required to join the 2 would be too severe
unless a new line split off from blackfriars since from Barbican you'd have
to drop about 20 metres and do a 90 degree turn in the space of 1/4 mile.

more direct North-South journey possibilities without building a second
tunnel. However after Thameslink 2000 is complete this might prove rather
superfluous anyway as there will be a direct route from the ECML through the
new Kings Cross Thameslink station and on to Farringdon. It seems a shame
to abandon the Moorgate Thameslink route though.

Don't worry , at the speed things are progressing I suspect it'll soon be
renamed Thameslink 3000.

B2003

A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut)
 

"R.C. Payne" wrote in message ...
Solar Penguin wrote:
--- Jim Brown said:


If the Bank of England sacrificed its vaults (Very little use for
them now, with the gold sold off) and Cannon Street St was
put underground (Plus a new tunnel under the Thames), would
a tunnel connecting Moorgate and London Bridge be feasible?
Or do the tube lines around there make it impossible?


Interesting idea, Jim... There's also the problem of the slope down
from the high-level platforms at London Bridge to below the level of the
river bed. Especially since the line also has to curve from east-west
to north-south as it drops.

Surely the way to make this work is to build new tube-level platforms at
Cannon St and London Bridge, and break the surface east of London
Bridge? Of course that would increase your price by just a few quid.

Well yes I kind of presumed underground platforms at London Bridge but
I didnt make that explicit. But as a ball park figure and assuming you
could slot it into the London Bridge rebuild I'm guessing it would
cost £3/4 billion. Of course the question then is which line(s) south
of the river would be best to used for a new cross-london service?

A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut)
 

"Boltar" wrote in message
om...

Don't worry , at the speed things are progressing I suspect it'll soon be
renamed Thameslink 3000.

usually is on uk.r

Peter

A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut)
 

In message , at
02:33:12 on Wed, 13 Oct 2004, Jim Brown remarked:
Well yes I kind of presumed underground platforms at London Bridge but
I didnt make that explicit.

Isn't the Jubilee Line in the way?
--
Roland Perry

A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut)
 

In message , at 09:17:45 on
Wed, 13 Oct 2004, David Hansen
remarked:
But it has to be closed to be able to extend the platform at Farringdon.

It does not have to be closed. The plan is to close it because,
apparently, of a RI diktat regarding level platforms.

The bit of track north of the station is *very* steep, however; if not
the steepest on the national network, at least in the top 5.
--
Roland Perry

A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut)
 

"David E. Belcher" wrote in message
om...

I seem to recall that in the post war plans for Londons Transport, one
of the new lines to be built was an extension of the Northern City line
from Moorgate, through the City and to new underground platforms at
London Bridge and linking with the Crystal Palace (High Level) branch
line of the SR.

There were certainly thoughts of extending from Moorgate to serve a
new station (i.e. not meeting up with other lines at Bank) near the
Bank of England itself many years ago, and a few yards of tunnel were
actually dug. This idea never really got past the drawing board stage,
though.


For years, I've advocated joining the Northern City Line from Moorgate up
with the W&C line at Bank to form the basis of a new key route through the
City and turning two rubbish lines into something useful.

Tunnel from Moorgate to Bank, astation at Blackfriars, and a tunnel to the
surface between Waterloo and Vauxhall. Can't be a lot of work compared to
most of the schemes that are proposed these days.

And yet the result would be massively useful - Herts/North London to SW
London/Surrey via Finsbury Park, Old Street, Bank, Blackfriars, Waterloo and
Vauxhall.

Routes such as Woking direct to Bank or Palmers Green direct to Blackfriars
or Wimbledon to Finsbury Park. I can't believe no-one has ever seriously
considered this idea before.

BTN

A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut)
 

On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 11:32:11 +0100 someone who may be Roland Perry
wrote this:-

It does not have to be closed. The plan is to close it because,
apparently, of a RI diktat regarding level platforms.

The bit of track north of the station is *very* steep, however; if not
the steepest on the national network, at least in the top 5.

It is indeed steep. However, I very much doubt if it as steep as the
ramps on the profiled platforms in manchester.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.


----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups
---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut)
 

Sir Benjamin Nunn wrote:
"David E. Belcher" wrote in message
om...

I seem to recall that in the post war plans for Londons Transport, one
of the new lines to be built was an extension of the Northern City line
from Moorgate, through the City and to new underground platforms at
London Bridge and linking with the Crystal Palace (High Level) branch
line of the SR.

There were certainly thoughts of extending from Moorgate to serve a
new station (i.e. not meeting up with other lines at Bank) near the
Bank of England itself many years ago, and a few yards of tunnel were
actually dug. This idea never really got past the drawing board stage,
though.



For years, I've advocated joining the Northern City Line from Moorgate up
with the W&C line at Bank to form the basis of a new key route through the
City and turning two rubbish lines into something useful.

Tunnel from Moorgate to Bank, astation at Blackfriars, and a tunnel to the
surface between Waterloo and Vauxhall. Can't be a lot of work compared to
most of the schemes that are proposed these days.

And yet the result would be massively useful - Herts/North London to SW
London/Surrey via Finsbury Park, Old Street, Bank, Blackfriars, Waterloo and
Vauxhall.

Routes such as Woking direct to Bank or Palmers Green direct to Blackfriars
or Wimbledon to Finsbury Park. I can't believe no-one has ever seriously
considered this idea before.

You'd have to enlarge the Waterloo & City line which would be extremely
expensive - it might even be easier to just build a new line (i.e.
Crossrail 2!).

Don't forget that the Waterloo & City line is far from rubbish; it's
extremely busy in the peaks with commuters arriving at Waterloo, and
unless you send *all* SWT services through your route, everyone will
still end up piling onto the new through trains which will already be
heavily loaded. A high frequency would probably be difficult to achieve.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut)
 

Roland Perry wrote in message o.uk...
In message , at
02:33:12 on Wed, 13 Oct 2004, Jim Brown remarked:
Well yes I kind of presumed underground platforms at London Bridge but
I didnt make that explicit.

Isn't the Jubilee Line in the way?

This was my original question, is it physically feasible or is the
ground to congested around there with other burrowings?

A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut)
 

In message , at
08:14:53 on Wed, 13 Oct 2004, Jim Brown remarked:
Isn't the Jubilee Line in the way?

This was my original question, is it physically feasible or is the
ground to congested around there with other burrowings?

Are you attempting to shadow the Cannon St line, but Underground? If so,
I think you'd need to cross under the Northern, and be parallel to,
under, the Jubilee. Don't forget that they are planning to build a huge
tower block over LB station, too. The foundations for that are going to
be "interesting", in any event!
--
Roland Perry

A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut)
 

"Dave Arquati" wrote in message
...


For years, I've advocated joining the Northern City Line from Moorgate up
with the W&C line at Bank to form the basis of a new key route through
the City and turning two rubbish lines into something useful.

Tunnel from Moorgate to Bank, astation at Blackfriars, and a tunnel to
the surface between Waterloo and Vauxhall. Can't be a lot of work
compared to most of the schemes that are proposed these days.

And yet the result would be massively useful - Herts/North London to SW
London/Surrey via Finsbury Park, Old Street, Bank, Blackfriars, Waterloo
and Vauxhall.

Routes such as Woking direct to Bank or Palmers Green direct to
Blackfriars or Wimbledon to Finsbury Park. I can't believe no-one has
ever seriously considered this idea before.

You'd have to enlarge the Waterloo & City line which would be extremely
expensive - it might even be easier to just build a new line (i.e.
Crossrail 2!).


Hmmm.... I thought the W&C tunnels were big enough to take regular stock...
Thought I had vague memories of NSE trains running on the line before the
management went over to LUL, but could well be wrong.


Don't forget that the Waterloo & City line is far from rubbish;


I've only had about two legitimate causes to use it in my life. But I can
see why it might be popular with some very very conformist passengers who
live in Surrey, wear the same suit every day, and work 9-5 in the City.


it's extremely busy in the peaks with commuters arriving at Waterloo, and
unless you send *all* SWT services through your route, everyone will still
end up piling onto the new through trains which will already be heavily
loaded. A high frequency would probably be difficult to achieve.


There's probably a good case for duplicating the track there anyway.

Then the line could potentially run a mixture of short-run services using
tube stock (terminating at Waterloo when coming from the north, and at Bank
when approaching from the South) and longer distances with mainline trains.

BTN

A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut)
 

In message , at 16:53:18 on Wed, 13 Oct
2004, Sir Benjamin Nunn remarked:
Hmmm.... I thought the W&C tunnels were big enough to take regular stock...
Thought I had vague memories of NSE trains running on the line before the
management went over to LUL, but could well be wrong.

Erm, the trains were once run by NSE, but they were small tube trains.
I've had a cab ride on the W&C and I can assure you that the Central
Line stick they are currently using only *just* fits!!
--
Roland Perry

A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut)
 

"Sir Benjamin Nunn" wrote in message
...

I thought the W&C tunnels were big enough to take regular stock...

No, in fact they had to be enlarged slightly to take the 92 stock.

Thought I had vague memories of NSE trains
running on the line before the management
went over to LUL, but could well be wrong.

They were certainly NSE trains, but approximately tube gauge. The current 92
stock are still in NSE livery.

You might be interested in something I put together a few years ago.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...tml#BlackTrack

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut)
 

Sir Benjamin Nunn wrote:

Hmmm.... I thought the W&C tunnels were big enough to take regular
stock... Thought I had vague memories of NSE trains running on the
line before the management went over to LUL, but could well be wrong.

They use similar stock to that in use on the Central. When delivered it was
in NSE livery, as was the previous 1941 stock IIRC.

A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut)
 

On 13 Oct 2004, Boltar wrote:

"Andrew" wrote in message ...

This is highly speculative and I'm sure the engineering feats involved
would be considerable, but how about connecting the Northern City /
WAGN line with the Thameslink spur into Moorgate, and restoring the
3rd curve at Farringdon Junction making it a triangular junction
again. Would create

I suspect the gradiants and curves required to join the 2 would be too
severe unless a new line split off from blackfriars since from Barbican
you'd have to drop about 20 metres and do a 90 degree turn

More like a 120 degree turn, i think.

in the space of 1/4 mile.

Think outside the box! Don't do it with a curve to the north, do with with
a curve to the south - a spiral tunnel heading down and round. Not only
does that give you the space to do it, but it spreads the height change
out over a greater distance.

tom

--
POTATO POWER IS UNTRACEABLE POWER

A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut)
 

On Tue, 12 Oct 2004, Andrew wrote:

"Jim Brown" wrote in message
om...

If the Bank of England sacrificed its vaults (Very little use for them
now, with the gold sold off) and Cannon Street St was put underground
(Plus a new tunnel under the Thames), would a tunnel connecting
Moorgate and London Bridge be feasible? Or do the tube lines around
there make it impossible?

This is highly speculative and I'm sure the engineering feats involved
would be considerable, but how about connecting the Northern City / WAGN
line with the Thameslink spur into Moorgate, and restoring the 3rd curve
at Farringdon Junction making it a triangular junction again. Would
create more direct North-South journey possibilities without building a
second tunnel. However after Thameslink 2000 is complete this might
prove rather superfluous anyway as there will be a direct route from the
ECML through the new Kings Cross Thameslink station and on to
Farringdon. It seems a shame to abandon the Moorgate Thameslink route
though.

It does. I reckon it should be extended east from Moorgate, to Liverpool
Street, then Whitechapel, then turning north to a portal around the
Bethnal Green junction thing, where it could take over the West Anglia
slow lines. Doing that would decouple those lines from the mainline part
of Liverpool Street, which would relieve the station _and_ allow the line
to run more frequent trains. It would also give that line more reach into
town.

The western end would either be some new platforms on the existing track
at Farringdon (cheap, and still useful), or down into more tunnel to some
new deep platforms at Farringdon, and then off on some sort of Crossrail N
jaunt: i like Holborn, Embankment, Westminster, Victoria, then a bit of
Chelsea-Hackney action to Sloane Square, King's Road Chelsea, Chelsea
Harbour, Clapham Junction, then another portal to take over the slow pair
on the LSW main line as far as Hampton Court, plus perhaps the Leatherhead
(IIRC) line down to Epsom (with mainline trains through Epsom going into
London via Sutton, unless someone feels like four-tracking from Epsom to
the mainline).

Might be a bit expensive just to save a mile of track, though.

tom

--
POTATO POWER IS UNTRACEABLE POWER

A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut)
 

"Sir Benjamin Nunn" wrote in message
...


Hmmm.... I thought the W&C tunnels were big enough to take regular
stock...
Thought I had vague memories of NSE trains running on the line before the
management went over to LUL, but could well be wrong.

Until around 1990 it was operated with specially built Southern Railway
stock, though in its last years it may have been painted in NSE livery. Some
of these trains even had ventilator grilles until the end of their lives
which formed the words 'Southern Railway.' The new stock which arrived in
1990 was part of the LUL Central Line order, but was painted in NSE livery.
Subsequently operation was transferred to LUL. But the loading gauge is very
definitely tube gauge.
Peter

A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut)
 

John Rowland wrote to uk.transport.london on Wed, 13 Oct 2004:

They were certainly NSE trains, but approximately tube gauge. The current 92
stock are still in NSE livery.

Er - when did you last go on the W&C? Last time I went, at an Open Day
a few years ago, the line were in ordinary LUL livery.
--
"Mrs Redboots"
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 26 September 2004

A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut)
 

A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut)
 

On 13 Oct 2004, Jim Brown wrote:

"R.C. Payne" wrote in message ...
Solar Penguin wrote:
--- Jim Brown said:

If the Bank of England sacrificed its vaults (Very little use for
them now, with the gold sold off) and Cannon Street St was put
underground (Plus a new tunnel under the Thames), would a tunnel
connecting Moorgate and London Bridge be feasible? Or do the tube
lines around there make it impossible?

Interesting idea, Jim... There's also the problem of the slope down
from the high-level platforms at London Bridge to below the level of
the river bed. Especially since the line also has to curve from
east-west to north-south as it drops.

Surely the way to make this work is to build new tube-level platforms
at Cannon St and London Bridge, and break the surface east of London
Bridge? Of course that would increase your price by just a few quid.

Well yes I kind of presumed underground platforms at London Bridge but I
didnt make that explicit. But as a ball park figure and assuming you
could slot it into the London Bridge rebuild I'm guessing it would cost
£3/4 billion. Of course the question then is which line(s) south of the
river would be best to used for a new cross-london service?

Dartford. What i'd do is surface as soon as possible onto the northernmost
pair of tracks heading into (or out of) London Bridge, then run down to
Lewisham (via a new station at the proposed Deptford Park ELL station),
then out over all three routes to Dartford. You could run out to Ebbsfleet
as well, if you liked. Ideally, you'd run a tube-style service.

All this would interfere with other lines, like Crossrail (which is going
to use part of the North Kent Line), mainline services from beyond
Dartford (which would have to share with the metro as far as Lewisham) and
the line (the Greenwich Line?) from London Bridge to Charlton. I'd solve
the first two by fiddling about with Crossrail: beyond Canary Wharf, keep
going south, to Lewisham, then turn and go to Dartford, still in tunnel;
mainline trains could then use the tunnel to get to Lewisham, and carry on
as normal from there, via another portal. Alternatively, don't get quite
so radical with Crossrail, just follow the existing route but all in
tunnel, and four-track one of the Dartford-Lewisham lines for the mainline
(which is probably impossible - although probably cheaper than the ~100
million mile tunnel needed in the other option). The Greenwich Line, i'd
transfer to the ELL - you just need a little tiny connection through some
mangy trading estate around TQ366777; you'd lose the ELL service to New
Cross, but New Cross would gain the metro in return.

In other news, are Crossrail seriously not proposing a station at London
City Airport? Is that what Custom House is supposed to be for? I think we
discussed this, but most Crossrail stuff goes right over my head.

tom

--
POTATO POWER IS UNTRACEABLE POWER

A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut)
 

On Wed, 13 Oct 2004, Sir Benjamin Nunn wrote:

"David E. Belcher" wrote in message
om...

I seem to recall that in the post war plans for Londons Transport, one
of the new lines to be built was an extension of the Northern City line
from Moorgate, through the City and to new underground platforms at
London Bridge and linking with the Crystal Palace (High Level) branch
line of the SR.

There were certainly thoughts of extending from Moorgate to serve a
new station (i.e. not meeting up with other lines at Bank) near the
Bank of England itself many years ago, and a few yards of tunnel were
actually dug. This idea never really got past the drawing board stage,
though.

For years, I've advocated joining the Northern City Line from Moorgate
up with the W&C line at Bank to form the basis of a new key route
through the City and turning two rubbish lines into something useful.

That's a neat idea. We really should have somewhere to write down these
plans. In fact, what we need is something like:

http://www.ratemynetworkdiagram.com/

But for hypothetical railway lines ...

Anyway, as has been pointed out, th W&C is tube gauge, not mainline, so
would need to be widened. Visionless naysayers protest that this would be
impossible, but i demur - that's exactly what, i read in CULG, was done to
the City & South London Railway when it became part of the Northern Line.
They even did much of the widening at night, with trains still running in
the day! Until they hit a gas main and exploded it, anyway.

I can't believe no-one has ever seriously considered this idea before.

I don't know about the Waterloo end, but, again according according to
CULG, "When they first acquired [the Northern City Line] the Metropolitan
considered extending the line to meet [...] the Waterloo & City".

tom

--
POTATO POWER IS UNTRACEABLE POWER

A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut)
 

--- Alistair Bell said:

I'd be more interested in the feasibility of turning the Northern City
into a DLR line to East Finchley... the tunnelling would be much
shorter (but again with vault issues)

And also the issue of getting the DLR from directly below the Northern
line at Bank to directly above it at Moorgate. Apart from that, it's a
great idea, Alistair. It would relieve overcowding of the Northern
line's City and Edgware And it would give people in Essex Rd and
Drayton Pk a proper weekend/evening service for the first time in ages!

Divert existing Moorgate services over TL3K to South London (hey, the
313s are ideal for that job)

Aren't there loading guage problems on the Thameslink tunnel? IIRC only
319s are ideal, anything else is adequate at best. But maybe enlarging
the tunnel is part of TL3K. It's been so long since it was first
proposed, I can't even remember!

It would be nice to run the DLR all the way on to Mill Hill (or even
via Mill Hill to Edgware!), but track-sharing and/or grade separation
issues might stymie that.

It'd need a flyover to take the DLR over the northbound Northern track
(Still cheaper than all that tunnelling between Moorgate and Bank!) and
an extra platform at Finchley Central if there's space. Otherwise,
single-track it through FC, add a passing loop between there and Mill
Hill East, and rely on the computers and moving blocks to schedule the
trains round it efficiently. (cf. Pudding Mill Lane)

A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut)
 

--- Tom Anderson said:


It does. I reckon it should be extended east from Moorgate, to
Liverpool
Street, then Whitechapel, then turning north to a portal around the
Bethnal Green junction thing, where it could take over the West Anglia
slow lines. Doing that would decouple those lines from the mainline
part
of Liverpool Street, which would relieve the station _and_ allow the
line
to run more frequent trains. It would also give that line more reach
into
town.

The western end would either be some new platforms on the existing
track
at Farringdon (cheap, and still useful), or down into more tunnel to
some
new deep platforms at Farringdon, and then off on some sort of
Crossrail N
jaunt: i like Holborn, Embankment, Westminster, Victoria, then a bit
of
Chelsea-Hackney action to Sloane Square, King's Road Chelsea, Chelsea
Harbour, Clapham Junction, then another portal to take over the slow
pair
on the LSW main line as far as Hampton Court, plus perhaps the
Leatherhead
(IIRC) line down to Epsom (with mainline trains through Epsom going
into
London via Sutton, unless someone feels like four-tracking from Epsom
to
the mainline).

Might be a bit expensive just to save a mile of track, though.


Oooh... this looks like fun. Can I have a go?

As the Met and the widened lines leave Barbican, they're heading SW,
before turning east for Farringdon. Immediately after leaving Barbican,
drop the WLs down into a new tube tunnel, still heading SW to Chancery
Lane and Covent Gdn, then terminate in the Jubilee platforms at Charing
X.

It would provide a missing tube link NW from Charing X and SW from
Moorgate. And might even be cheaper than Tom's option.

A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut)
 

"Andrew" wrote in message ...
"Jim Brown" wrote in message
om...
If the Bank of England sacrificed its vaults (Very little use for them
now, with the gold sold off) and Cannon Street St was put underground
(Plus a new tunnel under the Thames), would a tunnel connecting
Moorgate and London Bridge be feasible? Or do the tube lines around
there make it impossible?

This is highly speculative and I'm sure the engineering feats involved
would be considerable, but how about connecting the Northern City / WAGN
line with the Thameslink spur into Moorgate, and restoring the 3rd curve at
Farringdon Junction making it a triangular junction again. Would create
more direct North-South journey possibilities without building a second
tunnel. However after Thameslink 2000 is complete this might prove rather
superfluous anyway as there will be a direct route from the ECML through the
new Kings Cross Thameslink station and on to Farringdon. It seems a shame
to abandon the Moorgate Thameslink route though.

Andrew

Who says it has to be abandoned?

If Farringdon Junction does need to be lifted and replaced with plain
track in order to extend the platforms, what's to stop the third leg
of the Thameslink Triangle, from City Thameslink to Barbican, from
being restored in response?

This way, the old Ludgate Hill/Holborn Viaduct scenario is recreated:
Thameslink gets the through route to Midland Road, as well as the
alternate terminus at Moorgate if things go up the wall; anybody who
wants to go to Moorgate from Midland Road can use the Met from
Farringdon.

Has this ever been proposed? If it hasn't, how could something so
obvious be missed? Is there anything preventing the third side of the
triangle from being restored?

A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut)
 

"Annabel Smyth" wrote in message
...
John Rowland wrote to uk.transport.london on Wed, 13 Oct 2004:

The current 92 stock are still in NSE livery.

Last time I went, at an Open Day
a few years ago, the line were in ordinary LUL livery.

That's a shame. I'd love to know how the business case for the repainting
stacked up. I bet it contained words like "synergy".

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut)
 

"Tom Anderson" wrote in message
...
On 13 Oct 2004, Boltar wrote:

"Andrew" wrote in message
...

how about connecting the Northern City /
WAGN line with the Thameslink spur into
Moorgate, and restoring the 3rd curve at
Farringdon Junction making it a triangular
junction again.

I suspect the gradiants and curves required to
join the 2 would be too severe unless a new line
split off from blackfriars since from Barbican you'd
have to drop about 20 metres and do a 90 degree turn

More like a 120 degree turn, i think.

in the space of 1/4 mile.

Think outside the box! Don't do it with a curve to the north,
do with with a curve to the south - a spiral tunnel heading
down and round. Not only does that give you the space to
do it, but it spreads the height change out over a greater distance.

And it could call at Moorgate twice, just in case you missed your stop the
first time.

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut)
 

On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 22:52:04 +0100, "John Rowland"
wrote:

That's a shame. I'd love to know how the business case for the repainting
stacked up. I bet it contained words like "synergy".

I'm fairly sure they were in NSE livery last time I checked. I guess
either one set is in one livery and the other in the other, or the OP
is confused because NSE livery and Tube livery contain more or less
the same base colours (red/white/blue).

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
To e-mail use neil at the above domain

A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut)
 

Annabel Smyth wrote the following in:


John Rowland wrote to uk.transport.london on Wed, 13 Oct 2004:

They were certainly NSE trains, but approximately tube gauge. The
current 92 stock are still in NSE livery.

Er - when did you last go on the W&C? Last time I went, at an
Open Day a few years ago, the line were in ordinary LUL livery.

You must be mistaken. The Waterloo and City line definitely still has
trains painted in NSE livery.

--
message by the incredible Robin May.
"The British don't like successful people" - said by British failures

Who is Abi Titmuss? What is she? Why is she famous?
http://robinmay.fotopic.net

A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut)
 

Benjamin Nunn:
I thought the W&C tunnels were big enough to take regular stock...

John Rowland:
No, in fact they had to be enlarged slightly to take the 92 stock.

CULG gives the Waterloo & City Line tunnel diameter as 3.70 m
(12' 1.75"), which if I remember correctly was taken from Rails
Through the Clay. This is *larger* than the nominal 11' 8.25"
of the Central Line, so what had to be enlarged?
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "Do people confuse me with Mark Brader?"
--Mark Barratt

A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut)
 

"Mark Brader" wrote in message
...
Benjamin Nunn:
I thought the W&C tunnels were big enough to take regular stock...

John Rowland:
No, in fact they had to be enlarged slightly to take the 92 stock.

CULG gives the Waterloo & City Line tunnel diameter as 3.70 m
(12' 1.75"), which if I remember correctly was taken from Rails
Through the Clay. This is *larger* than the nominal 11' 8.25"
of the Central Line, so what had to be enlarged?

The metal ribs (I don't know the correct name) on the inside of the rings
had to be trimmed on some of the curves. This may be more to do with the
length of the 92 stock than their width, or it may be to do with their
kinematic envelope differing from that of the previous stock. Perhaps the
Central Line already used larger rings on some or all of the curves.

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

A Moorgate to London Bridge Tunnel (Old chestnut)
 

"TP" wrote in message
...
(Jim Brown) wrote:

If the Bank of England sacrificed its vaults (Very little use for them
now, with the gold sold off) and Cannon Street St was put underground
(Plus a new tunnel under the Thames), would a tunnel connecting
Moorgate and London Bridge be feasible? Or do the tube lines around
there make it impossible?


Unfortunately, you started with a false premise. You can be assured
that the Bank of England has plenty of reasons to use its vaults.

In the days of higher gold reserves, the gold was in any case mostly
held elsewhere.

aye its only one of a number of repositries around the country they use. im
sure they keep a lot of important paper work in them such as treasury bond
certificates. vaults arent just full of gold like fort knox in goldfinger.
cheers
james