Looking at my handy and informative central London bus map, I noticed that
the locations of several proposed East London Line stations (Shoreditch,
Hoxton, and possibly Haggerston as well) are inside the zone 1 boundary.

I think it's unlikely that they'll remain there on the final line - stations
inside zone 1 with no interchange would just push up fares and detract from
one of the major arguments for the extension. So, does this mean the zonal
boundaries are going to have to be redrawn specifically for the ELL?

Jonn

On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 19:36:44 +0000 (UTC), "Jonn Elledge"
wrote:

Looking at my handy and informative central London bus map, I noticed that
the locations of several proposed East London Line stations (Shoreditch,
Hoxton, and possibly Haggerston as well) are inside the zone 1 boundary.

I think it's unlikely that they'll remain there on the final line - stations
inside zone 1 with no interchange would just push up fares and detract from
one of the major arguments for the extension. So, does this mean the zonal
boundaries are going to have to be redrawn specifically for the ELL?

why do you imagine that it is unlikely they'll stay in Zone 1? I'd
imagine that they'll stay exactly in Zone 1 so as to maximise the
revenue potential of the line. I take your point about it being more
popular if it was all in Zone 2 but by no means is Bishopsgate in Zone 2
even if you moved the boundary for the others.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 19:36:44 +0000 (UTC), "Jonn Elledge"
wrote:


Looking at my handy and informative central London bus map, I noticed that
the locations of several proposed East London Line stations (Shoreditch,
Hoxton, and possibly Haggerston as well) are inside the zone 1 boundary.

I think it's unlikely that they'll remain there on the final line - stations
inside zone 1 with no interchange would just push up fares and detract from
one of the major arguments for the extension. So, does this mean the zonal
boundaries are going to have to be redrawn specifically for the ELL?


why do you imagine that it is unlikely they'll stay in Zone 1? I'd
imagine that they'll stay exactly in Zone 1 so as to maximise the
revenue potential of the line. I take your point about it being more
popular if it was all in Zone 2 but by no means is Bishopsgate in Zone 2
even if you moved the boundary for the others.

What use is an orbital line if it passes through Zone 1? People won't
use a slower route designed to avoid central London if, in fact, it
doesn't avoid central London.

Shoreditch is in Zone 2; Shoreditch High St station will be barely 300m
from Shoreditch.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 23:51:20 +0100, Dave Arquati wrote:

[ellx in zone 1 or not]

What use is an orbital line if it passes through Zone 1? People won't
use a slower route designed to avoid central London if, in fact, it
doesn't avoid central London.

Since when did the definition of an orbital route mean it had to avoid
Zone 1? Why is it somehow less effective if it does touch Zone 1. I
thought the East London line was supposed to opening up job
opportunities to people - doesn't Bishopsgate count as an area with
jobs?

Shoreditch is in Zone 2; Shoreditch High St station will be barely 300m
from Shoreditch.

Fine - the new station is just the wrong side of the boundary. Remember
the OP was actually referring to the Hoxton and Haggerston station and
it is true that the northern edge of Zone 1 is further north than many
imagine. Having looked at the TfL site and at a bus map then Haggerston
is just in Zone 2 while Hoxton is in Zone 1 as is Shoreditch High St.
The zone 1/2 boundary curves out of what would be its logical alignment
to ensure Shoreditch is in Zone 2 - which sort of makes sense given the
ELL's current service. If the boundary did not curve then Shoreditch
would most certainly be in Zone 1 - after all the nearest bus stops on
Bethnal Green Road for routes 8 and 388 most certainly are.

--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 23:51:20 +0100, Dave Arquati wrote:

[ellx in zone 1 or not]

If the boundary did not curve then Shoreditch
would most certainly be in Zone 1 - after all the nearest bus stops on
Bethnal Green Road for routes 8 and 388 most certainly are.


Except that I thought all the buses were no longer zoned up - so it doesn't
matter what zone they're in as they're not used on buses anymore (you can
use any zone travelcard on any buses regardless of if you're in the right
zone or not as long as it's on a valid day for the ticket). So, the only
issue with the zones being redrawn to ensure that the ellx stays within a
minimum of zone 2 would be if there's already existing tube or train
stations nearby.

Paul Corfield wrote to uk.transport.london on Sun, 24 Oct 2004:

Since when did the definition of an orbital route mean it had to avoid
Zone 1? Why is it somehow less effective if it does touch Zone 1. I
thought the East London line was supposed to opening up job
opportunities to people - doesn't Bishopsgate count as an area with
jobs?

Basically, if the route did not go through zone 1, it would cost a lot
less! If the orbital route is marginally less convenient but cheaper,
you are a lot more likely to use it than if it is marginally less
convenient but costs the same.

=
If the boundary did not curve then Shoreditch
would most certainly be in Zone 1 - after all the nearest bus stops on
Bethnal Green Road for routes 8 and 388 most certainly are.

But it costs the same on the bus whatever zone you're in, so that makes
no difference.
--
"Mrs Redboots"
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 26 September 2004

On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 18:30:32 +0100, Annabel Smyth
wrote:

Paul Corfield wrote to uk.transport.london on Sun, 24 Oct 2004:

Since when did the definition of an orbital route mean it had to avoid
Zone 1? Why is it somehow less effective if it does touch Zone 1. I
thought the East London line was supposed to opening up job
opportunities to people - doesn't Bishopsgate count as an area with
jobs?

Basically, if the route did not go through zone 1, it would cost a lot
less! If the orbital route is marginally less convenient but cheaper,
you are a lot more likely to use it than if it is marginally less
convenient but costs the same.

Surely people take the route that is most convenient and fastest when it
comes to rail or tube travel? Do people really go through such journey
contortions in order to save a few pence?

In the case of ELLX there is a balancing act to be achieved between
costs and revenue and ridership. If the line is genuinely useful - and I
believe it certainly is - then putting some stations in zone 1 or
possibly on the boundary of Z1 and 2 together with Whitechapel will not
make a huge difference to ridership but it would certainly do something
for revenue. I don't see the argument that says the line has to be
wholly in Zone 2 for it to be a success or to fall into a category
called "orbital". Surely part of the attraction will be frequent service
and ease of interchange avoiding the normal Zone 1 termini like Victoria
which will make it attractive for cross London trips?

As it seems from the latest TfL business plan info that it will still be
a National Rail service (franchise) but specified by TfL then I think on
balance that we will get the DLR style fudge of stations on fare
boundaries but with the LUL fare scale north of the New Cross stations
and the hybrid Southern / TfL through ticket scale for trips to the
south.

If the boundary did not curve then Shoreditch
would most certainly be in Zone 1 - after all the nearest bus stops on
Bethnal Green Road for routes 8 and 388 most certainly are.

But it costs the same on the bus whatever zone you're in, so that makes
no difference.

The original poster used the examples of fare zone boundaries. I simply
checked the map he referenced and you can see that the boundary is very
clearly fudged in the case of Shoreditch to place it in Zone 2.

Just to be pedantic I think it should be remembered that bus zones are
simply not used *at the moment* for pricing bus fares and passes. No one
has gone round and removed the zone labels from bus stops and I would
not be remotely surprised to see some form of bus zone be re-introduced
if the financial situation warranted it. Flat fares will get to the
level where they become so high that they discourage short journeys thus
negating part of the reason for having a bus system. At that stage the
fares structure will change - after all we have been here before when
fares used to 30p flat fare and it only took 3 fares revisions to get to
a graduated structure.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

Surely people take the route that is most convenient and fastest when it
comes to rail or tube travel? Do people really go through such journey
contortions in order to save a few pence?

Most certainly. My fastest route to work, from Forest Hill to Tolworth,
was almost certainly Forest Hill - London Bridge - Waterloo - Tolworth.

This would need a zone 1-5 ticket.

By going from Forest Hill - East Croydon - Clapham - Tolworth, I saved
over £30 a month and only needed a zone 2-5 ticket.

--
Paul Cummins - Always a NetHead
Wasting Bandwidth since 1981

Paul Corfield wrote to uk.transport.london on Mon, 25 Oct 2004:

Surely people take the route that is most convenient and fastest when it
comes to rail or tube travel? Do people really go through such journey
contortions in order to save a few pence?

If you don't have a lot of money then, yes, you do.

[Snip]

Flat fares will get to the
level where they become so high that they discourage short journeys thus
negating part of the reason for having a bus system.

They already are! I wouldn't take a bus for one or two stops unless I
had a pass of some kind or another - a whole pound, just for a journey I
could do in ten minutes on foot? I don't think so! With a bus-pass, of
course, it's another story.

At that stage the
fares structure will change - after all we have been here before when
fares used to 30p flat fare and it only took 3 fares revisions to get to
a graduated structure.

Did we? I don't remember that - I do remember that, until fairly
recently, you paid a fare that was graduated according to the length of
your journey.
--
"Mrs Redboots"
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 26 September 2004

On Sat, 23 Oct 2004, Dave Arquati wrote:

Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 19:36:44 +0000 (UTC), "Jonn Elledge"
wrote:

Looking at my handy and informative central London bus map, I noticed
that the locations of several proposed East London Line stations
(Shoreditch, Hoxton, and possibly Haggerston as well) are inside the
zone 1 boundary.

I think it's unlikely that they'll remain there on the final line

why do you imagine that it is unlikely they'll stay in Zone 1?

What use is an orbital line if it passes through Zone 1?

What, you mean like how the NLL goes through zone 2?

tom

--
OBEY GIANT