|
ELL odity
Looking at my handy and informative central London bus map, I noticed that
the locations of several proposed East London Line stations (Shoreditch, Hoxton, and possibly Haggerston as well) are inside the zone 1 boundary. I think it's unlikely that they'll remain there on the final line - stations inside zone 1 with no interchange would just push up fares and detract from one of the major arguments for the extension. So, does this mean the zonal boundaries are going to have to be redrawn specifically for the ELL? Jonn |
ELL odity
On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 19:36:44 +0000 (UTC), "Jonn Elledge"
wrote: Looking at my handy and informative central London bus map, I noticed that the locations of several proposed East London Line stations (Shoreditch, Hoxton, and possibly Haggerston as well) are inside the zone 1 boundary. I think it's unlikely that they'll remain there on the final line - stations inside zone 1 with no interchange would just push up fares and detract from one of the major arguments for the extension. So, does this mean the zonal boundaries are going to have to be redrawn specifically for the ELL? why do you imagine that it is unlikely they'll stay in Zone 1? I'd imagine that they'll stay exactly in Zone 1 so as to maximise the revenue potential of the line. I take your point about it being more popular if it was all in Zone 2 but by no means is Bishopsgate in Zone 2 even if you moved the boundary for the others. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
ELL odity
Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 19:36:44 +0000 (UTC), "Jonn Elledge" wrote: Looking at my handy and informative central London bus map, I noticed that the locations of several proposed East London Line stations (Shoreditch, Hoxton, and possibly Haggerston as well) are inside the zone 1 boundary. I think it's unlikely that they'll remain there on the final line - stations inside zone 1 with no interchange would just push up fares and detract from one of the major arguments for the extension. So, does this mean the zonal boundaries are going to have to be redrawn specifically for the ELL? why do you imagine that it is unlikely they'll stay in Zone 1? I'd imagine that they'll stay exactly in Zone 1 so as to maximise the revenue potential of the line. I take your point about it being more popular if it was all in Zone 2 but by no means is Bishopsgate in Zone 2 even if you moved the boundary for the others. What use is an orbital line if it passes through Zone 1? People won't use a slower route designed to avoid central London if, in fact, it doesn't avoid central London. Shoreditch is in Zone 2; Shoreditch High St station will be barely 300m from Shoreditch. -- Dave Arquati Imperial College, SW7 www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London |
ELL odity
On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 23:51:20 +0100, Dave Arquati wrote:
[ellx in zone 1 or not] What use is an orbital line if it passes through Zone 1? People won't use a slower route designed to avoid central London if, in fact, it doesn't avoid central London. Since when did the definition of an orbital route mean it had to avoid Zone 1? Why is it somehow less effective if it does touch Zone 1. I thought the East London line was supposed to opening up job opportunities to people - doesn't Bishopsgate count as an area with jobs? Shoreditch is in Zone 2; Shoreditch High St station will be barely 300m from Shoreditch. Fine - the new station is just the wrong side of the boundary. Remember the OP was actually referring to the Hoxton and Haggerston station and it is true that the northern edge of Zone 1 is further north than many imagine. Having looked at the TfL site and at a bus map then Haggerston is just in Zone 2 while Hoxton is in Zone 1 as is Shoreditch High St. The zone 1/2 boundary curves out of what would be its logical alignment to ensure Shoreditch is in Zone 2 - which sort of makes sense given the ELL's current service. If the boundary did not curve then Shoreditch would most certainly be in Zone 1 - after all the nearest bus stops on Bethnal Green Road for routes 8 and 388 most certainly are. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
ELL odity
"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
... On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 23:51:20 +0100, Dave Arquati wrote: [ellx in zone 1 or not] If the boundary did not curve then Shoreditch would most certainly be in Zone 1 - after all the nearest bus stops on Bethnal Green Road for routes 8 and 388 most certainly are. Except that I thought all the buses were no longer zoned up - so it doesn't matter what zone they're in as they're not used on buses anymore (you can use any zone travelcard on any buses regardless of if you're in the right zone or not as long as it's on a valid day for the ticket). So, the only issue with the zones being redrawn to ensure that the ellx stays within a minimum of zone 2 would be if there's already existing tube or train stations nearby. |
ELL odity
Paul Corfield wrote to uk.transport.london on Sun, 24 Oct 2004:
Since when did the definition of an orbital route mean it had to avoid Zone 1? Why is it somehow less effective if it does touch Zone 1. I thought the East London line was supposed to opening up job opportunities to people - doesn't Bishopsgate count as an area with jobs? Basically, if the route did not go through zone 1, it would cost a lot less! If the orbital route is marginally less convenient but cheaper, you are a lot more likely to use it than if it is marginally less convenient but costs the same. = If the boundary did not curve then Shoreditch would most certainly be in Zone 1 - after all the nearest bus stops on Bethnal Green Road for routes 8 and 388 most certainly are. But it costs the same on the bus whatever zone you're in, so that makes no difference. -- "Mrs Redboots" http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/ Website updated 26 September 2004 |
ELL odity
On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 18:30:32 +0100, Annabel Smyth
wrote: Paul Corfield wrote to uk.transport.london on Sun, 24 Oct 2004: Since when did the definition of an orbital route mean it had to avoid Zone 1? Why is it somehow less effective if it does touch Zone 1. I thought the East London line was supposed to opening up job opportunities to people - doesn't Bishopsgate count as an area with jobs? Basically, if the route did not go through zone 1, it would cost a lot less! If the orbital route is marginally less convenient but cheaper, you are a lot more likely to use it than if it is marginally less convenient but costs the same. Surely people take the route that is most convenient and fastest when it comes to rail or tube travel? Do people really go through such journey contortions in order to save a few pence? In the case of ELLX there is a balancing act to be achieved between costs and revenue and ridership. If the line is genuinely useful - and I believe it certainly is - then putting some stations in zone 1 or possibly on the boundary of Z1 and 2 together with Whitechapel will not make a huge difference to ridership but it would certainly do something for revenue. I don't see the argument that says the line has to be wholly in Zone 2 for it to be a success or to fall into a category called "orbital". Surely part of the attraction will be frequent service and ease of interchange avoiding the normal Zone 1 termini like Victoria which will make it attractive for cross London trips? As it seems from the latest TfL business plan info that it will still be a National Rail service (franchise) but specified by TfL then I think on balance that we will get the DLR style fudge of stations on fare boundaries but with the LUL fare scale north of the New Cross stations and the hybrid Southern / TfL through ticket scale for trips to the south. If the boundary did not curve then Shoreditch would most certainly be in Zone 1 - after all the nearest bus stops on Bethnal Green Road for routes 8 and 388 most certainly are. But it costs the same on the bus whatever zone you're in, so that makes no difference. The original poster used the examples of fare zone boundaries. I simply checked the map he referenced and you can see that the boundary is very clearly fudged in the case of Shoreditch to place it in Zone 2. Just to be pedantic I think it should be remembered that bus zones are simply not used *at the moment* for pricing bus fares and passes. No one has gone round and removed the zone labels from bus stops and I would not be remotely surprised to see some form of bus zone be re-introduced if the financial situation warranted it. Flat fares will get to the level where they become so high that they discourage short journeys thus negating part of the reason for having a bus system. At that stage the fares structure will change - after all we have been here before when fares used to 30p flat fare and it only took 3 fares revisions to get to a graduated structure. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
ELL odity
|
ELL odity
Paul Corfield wrote to uk.transport.london on Mon, 25 Oct 2004:
Surely people take the route that is most convenient and fastest when it comes to rail or tube travel? Do people really go through such journey contortions in order to save a few pence? If you don't have a lot of money then, yes, you do. [Snip] Flat fares will get to the level where they become so high that they discourage short journeys thus negating part of the reason for having a bus system. They already are! I wouldn't take a bus for one or two stops unless I had a pass of some kind or another - a whole pound, just for a journey I could do in ten minutes on foot? I don't think so! With a bus-pass, of course, it's another story. At that stage the fares structure will change - after all we have been here before when fares used to 30p flat fare and it only took 3 fares revisions to get to a graduated structure. Did we? I don't remember that - I do remember that, until fairly recently, you paid a fare that was graduated according to the length of your journey. -- "Mrs Redboots" http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/ Website updated 26 September 2004 |
ELL odity
On Sat, 23 Oct 2004, Dave Arquati wrote:
Paul Corfield wrote: On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 19:36:44 +0000 (UTC), "Jonn Elledge" wrote: Looking at my handy and informative central London bus map, I noticed that the locations of several proposed East London Line stations (Shoreditch, Hoxton, and possibly Haggerston as well) are inside the zone 1 boundary. I think it's unlikely that they'll remain there on the final line why do you imagine that it is unlikely they'll stay in Zone 1? What use is an orbital line if it passes through Zone 1? What, you mean like how the NLL goes through zone 2? tom -- OBEY GIANT |
ELL odity
Tom Anderson wrote:
On Sat, 23 Oct 2004, Dave Arquati wrote: Paul Corfield wrote: On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 19:36:44 +0000 (UTC), "Jonn Elledge" wrote: Looking at my handy and informative central London bus map, I noticed that the locations of several proposed East London Line stations (Shoreditch, Hoxton, and possibly Haggerston as well) are inside the zone 1 boundary. I think it's unlikely that they'll remain there on the final line why do you imagine that it is unlikely they'll stay in Zone 1? What use is an orbital line if it passes through Zone 1? What, you mean like how the NLL goes through zone 2? Er... yeah? I was trying to point out that any journey passing through Zone 1 incurs significant extra expense; therefore an orbital journey, which probably will take longer than a journey via Z1, should *avoid* Z1 to make it more attractive economically. -- Dave Arquati Imperial College, SW7 www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London |
ELL odity
In message , Paul Cummins
writes My fastest route to work, from Forest Hill to Tolworth, was almost certainly Forest Hill - London Bridge - Waterloo - Tolworth. This would need a zone 1-5 ticket. By going from Forest Hill - East Croydon - Clapham - Tolworth, I saved over £30 a month and only needed a zone 2-5 ticket. Travelling via East Croydon is at least as fast as going via Waterloo according to the TFL journey planner. I suspect it is also the shorter route, since travelling via London Bridge would take you much too far north - Tolworth is SW of Forest Hill. -- Paul Terry |
ELL odity
"Paul Terry" wrote in message ... In message , Paul Cummins writes My fastest route to work, from Forest Hill to Tolworth, was almost certainly Forest Hill - London Bridge - Waterloo - Tolworth. This would need a zone 1-5 ticket. By going from Forest Hill - East Croydon - Clapham - Tolworth, I saved over £30 a month and only needed a zone 2-5 ticket. Travelling via East Croydon is at least as fast as going via Waterloo according to the TFL journey planner. Going Forest Hill - West Croydon - Tram to Wimbledon - Tolworth seems to be the fastest route (though as the TfL JourneyPlanner has been down all morning I can't check what it thinks), and you only need Z345 so saving more money. Dave. |
ELL odity
Dave Liney wrote:
"Paul Terry" wrote in message ... In message , Paul Cummins writes My fastest route to work, from Forest Hill to Tolworth, was almost certainly Forest Hill - London Bridge - Waterloo - Tolworth. This would need a zone 1-5 ticket. By going from Forest Hill - East Croydon - Clapham - Tolworth, I saved over £30 a month and only needed a zone 2-5 ticket. Travelling via East Croydon is at least as fast as going via Waterloo according to the TFL journey planner. Going Forest Hill - West Croydon - Tram to Wimbledon - Tolworth seems to be the fastest route (though as the TfL JourneyPlanner has been down all morning I can't check what it thinks), and you only need Z345 so saving more money. Dave. TfL say 1h03 for that in the morning, going via East Croydon (going via West Croydon involves two trams as West Croydon tramstop is eastbound only). Interestingly you can make the journey with a single change during the day. I had no idea there were direct trains between Forest Hill and Victoria. Unfortunately the half-hourly arrival at Clapham Junction is at exactly the same time as the half-hourly departure to Tolworth - meaning if you can make a snappy change, your whole journey is only 40 mins - otherwise it's 1h10 including a 30-min wait. -- Dave Arquati Imperial College, SW7 www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London |
ELL odity
|
ELL odity
|
ELL odity
|
ELL odity
"Dave Arquati" wrote in message ... Dave Liney wrote: Going Forest Hill - West Croydon - Tram to Wimbledon - Tolworth seems to be the fastest route (though as the TfL JourneyPlanner has been down all morning I can't check what it thinks), and you only need Z345 so saving more money. TfL say 1h03 for that in the morning, going via East Croydon (going via West Croydon involves two trams as West Croydon tramstop is eastbound only). Getting a tram from West Croydon to East Croydon to go west would be daft. I've never done it but walking from West Croydon to Church Street tramstop looks like 500m so a 5-6 minutes walk for the average person. And my quick calculations suggested that the time of the WC trains plus tram journey time fitted better with the Wimbledon-Tolworth half-hourly service. Dave |
ELL odity
On Mon, 25 Oct 2004, Dave Arquati wrote:
Tom Anderson wrote: On Sat, 23 Oct 2004, Dave Arquati wrote: Paul Corfield wrote: On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 19:36:44 +0000 (UTC), "Jonn Elledge" wrote: Looking at my handy and informative central London bus map, I noticed that the locations of several proposed East London Line stations (Shoreditch, Hoxton, and possibly Haggerston as well) are inside the zone 1 boundary. I think it's unlikely that they'll remain there on the final line why do you imagine that it is unlikely they'll stay in Zone 1? What use is an orbital line if it passes through Zone 1? What, you mean like how the NLL goes through zone 2? And what i should have said is "... through zone 2 at Acton Central", or, better, "... through zone 3 at Hampstead Heath". Er... yeah? I was trying to point out that any journey passing through Zone 1 incurs significant extra expense; therefore an orbital journey, which probably will take longer than a journey via Z1, should *avoid* Z1 to make it more attractive economically. Absolutely. And ditto, although admittedly somewhat less strongly, for the NLL. The reason the NLL doesn't do this, and the reason the ELL might well not, is that LU don't want people to be able to travel all the way across London [1] on a single-zone ticket. tom [1] Exaggeration. Although Clapham Junction to Highbury & Islington isn't bad. -- Memes don't exist. Tell your friends. |
ELL odity
Tom Anderson wrote:
On Mon, 25 Oct 2004, Dave Arquati wrote: Tom Anderson wrote: On Sat, 23 Oct 2004, Dave Arquati wrote: Paul Corfield wrote: On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 19:36:44 +0000 (UTC), "Jonn Elledge" wrote: Looking at my handy and informative central London bus map, I noticed that the locations of several proposed East London Line stations (Shoreditch, Hoxton, and possibly Haggerston as well) are inside the zone 1 boundary. I think it's unlikely that they'll remain there on the final line why do you imagine that it is unlikely they'll stay in Zone 1? What use is an orbital line if it passes through Zone 1? What, you mean like how the NLL goes through zone 2? And what i should have said is "... through zone 2 at Acton Central", or, better, "... through zone 3 at Hampstead Heath". I guess. But the difference between zones 1 & 2 is much more significant than between zones 2 and 3 (specifically, £416 per year more significant at current prices). Er... yeah? I was trying to point out that any journey passing through Zone 1 incurs significant extra expense; therefore an orbital journey, which probably will take longer than a journey via Z1, should *avoid* Z1 to make it more attractive economically. Absolutely. And ditto, although admittedly somewhat less strongly, for the NLL. The reason the NLL doesn't do this, and the reason the ELL might well not, is that LU don't want people to be able to travel all the way across London [1] on a single-zone ticket. I guess they just have to strike a balance between revenue and passenger numbers - as with any new railway! But if you live in Dalston and have been offered the prospect of a new railway which will help get you to work in Canary Wharf faster, then you discover it costs £308 per year more than before... you may well say "no thanks". [1] Exaggeration. Although Clapham Junction to Highbury & Islington isn't bad. -- Dave Arquati Imperial College, SW7 www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London |
ELL odity
zone 1 boundary. I think it's unlikely that they'll remain there on the final line why do you imagine that it is unlikely they'll stay in Zone 1? What use is an orbital line if it passes through Zone 1? The reason the NLL doesn't do this, and the reason the ELL might well not, is that LU don't want people to be able to travel all the way across London [1] on a single-zone ticket. tom As far as I know, this was requested by Network SouthEast. |
| All times are GMT. The time now is 02:00 AM. |
Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2006 LondonBanter.co.uk