Bus Lane Signs - Impossible to read - What's the solution
 

I'm getting really quite fed up with the different crazy bus lane
rules all over even small parts of London.

On the same road it is quite easy to move from a permanent 24hr bus
lane to a Monday-Friday (7:30-10:00 and 16:00-19:00) part time lane
and then turn the corner into a Monday-Saturday 8:00-18:00) lane and
various versions and mutations thereof.

To compound this, many times you pop out of a side road across a bus
lane which doesn't have a sign for another couple of hundred yards and
can easily do all the wrong things.

There are a few problems with this as I see it.

1. Roads are not used efficiently by drivers when bus lanes are not
operational leading to undertaking by those who know or outside lane
crawling by those who don't.
2. The potential to be caught out on the same road having read the
first sign (part time) and then run along that bus lane correctly only
to be caught out when in goes permanent.
3. Complicated signs which are impossible to read at even nominal
speeds, let along 30mph because you are past them before you got to
the bit that relates to you and your time.
4. All that thought processing (am I legal/not legal/what's the
time/day?) distracts the driver from what he should be doing - driving
safely.

Is it not possible to simply call the bus lanes either full time or
part time and have full times ones painted red and part times ones
painted green and have only one possible part time option?

I know that this will not be 100% suitable for 100% of the roads 100%
of the time but I can't believe that the current system is either.

It drives me mad, and I'm sure one day it will drive ne to a big fat
inadvertant penalty notice.

Bus Lane Signs - Impossible to read - What's the solution
 

"Buttoneer" wrote in message
om...
I'm getting really quite fed up with the different crazy bus lane
rules all over even small parts of London.

On the same road it is quite easy to move from a permanent 24hr bus
lane to a Monday-Friday (7:30-10:00 and 16:00-19:00) part time lane
and then turn the corner into a Monday-Saturday 8:00-18:00) lane and
various versions and mutations thereof.

To compound this, many times you pop out of a side road across a bus
lane which doesn't have a sign for another couple of hundred yards and
can easily do all the wrong things.

There are a few problems with this as I see it.

1. Roads are not used efficiently by drivers when bus lanes are not
operational leading to undertaking by those who know or outside lane
crawling by those who don't.
2. The potential to be caught out on the same road having read the
first sign (part time) and then run along that bus lane correctly only
to be caught out when in goes permanent.
3. Complicated signs which are impossible to read at even nominal
speeds, let along 30mph because you are past them before you got to
the bit that relates to you and your time.
4. All that thought processing (am I legal/not legal/what's the
time/day?) distracts the driver from what he should be doing - driving
safely.

Is it not possible to simply call the bus lanes either full time or
part time and have full times ones painted red and part times ones
painted green and have only one possible part time option?

A very good idea to distinguish full-time and part-time bus lanes by the
colour of the road surface: nice and clear and unambiguous.

I'd like to see the same applied to parking restrictions: to distinguish
between public spaces ("anyone may park here for all or part of the day")
and residents-only spaces ("unless you have a permit you may not park here
at any time"). I got a ticket because there were numerous bays of parking
spaces along a road near Magdalin Bridge in Oxford; most of these were
public spaces with a one-hour limit, but a few here and there were for
residents only. The only way to distinguish between them was the
plate-on-a-pole. IF only the residents' bays had been marked with a
different coloured surface and "Residents Only" road markings.

Bus Lane Signs - Impossible to read - What's the solution
 

In article , Buttoneer
writes
I'm getting really quite fed up with the different crazy bus lane rules
all over even small parts of London.

On the same road it is quite easy to move from a permanent 24hr bus lane
to a Monday-Friday (7:30-10:00 and 16:00-19:00) part time lane and then
turn the corner into a Monday-Saturday 8:00-18:00) lane and various
versions and mutations thereof.

Watch out also for signs saying Mon-Sun. Can be very deceptive
(probably deliberate).
--
Thoss

Bus Lane Signs - Impossible to read - What's the solution
 

In article ,
Buttoneer wrote:
Is it not possible to simply call the bus lanes either full time
or part time and have full times ones painted red and part times
ones painted green and have only one possible part time option?

You can't do the latter because some are tidal and others weekdays
only or Mon-Sat. What we really need - though the cost would
probably be too high - is red runway-style lights demarcating bus
lanes which are turned on when they are operational.

--
Tony Bryer

Bus Lane Signs - Impossible to read - What's the solution
 

On 8 Nov 2004 08:49:56 -0800, (Buttoneer) wrote:

I'm getting really quite fed up with the different crazy bus lane
rules all over even small parts of London.

What's the problem with making them all 24/7? Seriously. When traffic is
heavy, the buses get a lane to themselves, as it should be. When traffic is
light, there's no need for cars to use the extra lane anyway. And, of course,
it ends the confusion of when it is or is not a bus lane.

Bus Lane Signs - Impossible to read - What's the solution
 

"Marc Brett" wrote in message
...
On 8 Nov 2004 08:49:56 -0800, (Buttoneer) wrote:

I'm getting really quite fed up with the different crazy bus lane
rules all over even small parts of London.

What's the problem with making them all 24/7? Seriously. When traffic is
heavy, the buses get a lane to themselves, as it should be. When traffic
is
light, there's no need for cars to use the extra lane anyway. And, of
course,
it ends the confusion of when it is or is not a bus lane.

This would not work anywhere you have a business - you can ban loading for
part of the day but not all of it. Otherwise you'll drive them out of
business. And you can't allow loading all the time - otherwise there is no
point having a bus lane in the first place. Different rules are needed to
suit each location bit I agree clearer signagge is often needed. I don't
think coloured surfacing would be a good method of indicating times - there
are too many variations. Clear bus-lane signs at the start of the lane, and
repeated at intervals is the answer - but so many lanes just have a sign at
the beginning of the lane and not enough repeaters.

Incidentally, if there are no days or hours shown at the start of a bus lane
this means it is 'at any time'. However, I think putting 'at any time' on
the sign is clearer!

The same is NOT true for permit-parking signs. The hours of operation may
be (and all too often are) omitted from the plates in CPZ parking bays and
only have to be shown on the boundary signs at the entry points to the CPZ.
I think the operational hours should be shown on all plates in all parking
bays - as they are on all the schemes I have designed.

Bus Lane Signs - Impossible to read - What's the solution
 

"Marc Brett" wrote in message
...
On 8 Nov 2004 08:49:56 -0800, (Buttoneer) wrote:

I'm getting really quite fed up with the different crazy
bus lane rules all over even small parts of London.

What's the problem with making them all 24/7?

The problem is that one is not currently allowed to use bus lanes for
undertaking a car waiting to turn right.

The other problem is that I can get around very quickly because I use bus
lanes to undertake all the clowns who avoid them 24/7, and I couldn't do
that if they were operational 24/7.

What's the problem with people just staying out of bus lanes unless they've
read the sign and checked the hours? Why do you see a 24/7 ban as an
improvement, when no-one materially benefits from that? Why don't you just
learn how to read instead of trying to punish people who can read?

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

Bus Lane Signs - Impossible to read - What's the solution
 

"umpston" wrote in
:

This would not work anywhere you have a business - you can ban loading
for part of the day but not all of it. Otherwise you'll drive them
out of business. And you can't allow loading all the time - otherwise
there is no point having a bus lane in the first place.

How about making the bus lane 24 by 7 for flowing traffic, but allow
loading for specified times of the day.

Bus Lane Signs - Impossible to read - What's the solution
 

"Andrew Black (delete obvious bit)" wrote in
message ...
"umpston" wrote in
:

This would not work anywhere you have a business - you can ban loading
for part of the day but not all of it. Otherwise you'll drive them
out of business. And you can't allow loading all the time - otherwise
there is no point having a bus lane in the first place.

How about making the bus lane 24 by 7 for flowing traffic, but allow
loading for specified times of the day.

Once you allow loading you no longer have 'flowing traffic' in the lane!
However, many bus lanes already do exactly what you describe - for example
bus lanes are often 7am-10am and 4pm-7pm. Between 10am and 4pm the bus lane
restrictions don't apply - but there may well be yellow lines which allow
loading but not parking at these times. In other places parking may well be
allowed. Always look at the parking/loading signs as well as the bus-lane
ones. If they are not clear - complain, otherwise they never will be.

Bus Lane Signs - Impossible to read - What's the solution
 

On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 00:16:41 -0000, "John Rowland"
wrote:

"Marc Brett" wrote in message
.. .
On 8 Nov 2004 08:49:56 -0800, (Buttoneer) wrote:

I'm getting really quite fed up with the different crazy
bus lane rules all over even small parts of London.

What's the problem with making them all 24/7?

The problem is that one is not currently allowed to use bus lanes for
undertaking a car waiting to turn right.

What about using them when a carriageway is blocked by police horse
boxes? Shepherd's Bush Road for example, when they take over the
northbound side for boxes, traffic displaced to the middle (s/b) lane,
s/b traffic uses bus lane. And much use of bus lane to pass the rat
runners turning right. (The bus lane is policed occasionally by plod
hiding behind a bus shelter; lots of drivers crane necks to check if
the coast is clear and use the last 1/2 mi stretch if so).

What's the problem with people just staying out of bus lanes unless they've
read the sign and checked the hours?
TBH it's one more thing to decode: the signs are not standardised. As
others have said, some are 24h, some are Mon-Sun, some are At All
Times, some are At Any Time (when's that?) and the mix of 7-10 4-7
means distractions. California has no problem with controlled green
ticks and red Xs to control use of HOV lanes. London has missed a
trick here IMHO. If the road is heavily laden, keep the bus lane
reserved for longer with a red X (or indeed if emergency access is
needed); same with the congestion zone: illuminate the red C in
control times.

--
New anti-spam address cmylod at despammed dot com

Bus Lane Signs - Impossible to read - What's the solution
 

Marc Brett wrote to uk.transport.london on Mon, 8 Nov 2004:

On 8 Nov 2004 08:49:56 -0800, (Buttoneer) wrote:

I'm getting really quite fed up with the different crazy bus lane
rules all over even small parts of London.

What's the problem with making them all 24/7? Seriously. When traffic is
heavy, the buses get a lane to themselves, as it should be. When traffic is
light, there's no need for cars to use the extra lane anyway. And, of course,
it ends the confusion of when it is or is not a bus lane.

And when it is not in use as a bus lane there's usually cars parked all
over it so it's unusable by moving traffic anyway.
--
"Mrs Redboots"
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 6 November 2004 with new photos

Bus Lane Signs - Impossible to read - What's the solution
 

Colum Mylod wrote in message . ..
On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 00:16:41 -0000, "John Rowland"
wrote:

"Marc Brett" wrote in message
.. .
On 8 Nov 2004 08:49:56 -0800, (Buttoneer) wrote:

I'm getting really quite fed up with the different crazy
bus lane rules all over even small parts of London.

What's the problem with making them all 24/7?

The problem is that one is not currently allowed to use bus lanes for
undertaking a car waiting to turn right.

What about using them when a carriageway is blocked by police horse
boxes? Shepherd's Bush Road for example, when they take over the
northbound side for boxes, traffic displaced to the middle (s/b) lane,
s/b traffic uses bus lane. And much use of bus lane to pass the rat
runners turning right. (The bus lane is policed occasionally by plod
hiding behind a bus shelter; lots of drivers crane necks to check if
the coast is clear and use the last 1/2 mi stretch if so).

What's the problem with people just staying out of bus lanes unless they've
read the sign and checked the hours?
TBH it's one more thing to decode: the signs are not standardised. As
others have said, some are 24h, some are Mon-Sun, some are At All
Times, some are At Any Time (when's that?) and the mix of 7-10 4-7
means distractions. California has no problem with controlled green
ticks and red Xs to control use of HOV lanes. London has missed a
trick here IMHO. If the road is heavily laden, keep the bus lane
reserved for longer with a red X (or indeed if emergency access is
needed); same with the congestion zone: illuminate the red C in
control times.

That's exactly it.

If you're on a road with a part time bus lane and are familiar with
the hours of operation it's easy to just pop into that lane and buzz
up the inside lane. What it doesn't help with is the occasional (and
you do get them) vigilante driver who thinks it is his or her duty to
try and block both lanes simply to prevent you from doing something
'cheeky' and because they have not read the sign properly. Happened
to me more than once. And no, I don't do it when the traffic is
moving.

Some of these signs are really very hard to decipher and/or take in
when you go past them on the entry to the controlled area.

And then you get those people who are in the right hand lane (because
they've not read the sign) and who suddenly decide they need to turn
left in front of you with little warning. They should (and could)
have been in the left lane and out of harms way.

Clear signage, whatever the rules, has got to be the way forward.
Personally, I'd prefer to see the hours standardised so everyone can
tell at any a glance what the rules are for the road at any one time.

Bus Lane Signs - Impossible to read - What's the solution
 

On Mon, 8 Nov 2004 20:47:17, Marc Brett wrote:

On 8 Nov 2004 08:49:56 -0800, (Buttoneer) wrote:

I'm getting really quite fed up with the different crazy bus lane
rules all over even small parts of London.

What's the problem with making them all 24/7? Seriously. When traffic is
heavy, the buses get a lane to themselves, as it should be. When traffic is
light, there's no need for cars to use the extra lane anyway. And, of course,
it ends the confusion of when it is or is not a bus lane.

I'd go with that - as long as motor-cycles can use bus lanes at all
times...

(A motor-bike has *never* been known to hold up a bus, at least that's
what Google leads me to believe.)

--
Jim Crowther "It's MY computer" (tm SMG)

Always learning.

Bus Lane Signs - Impossible to read - What's the solution
 

Jim Crowther wrote in message ...
On Mon, 8 Nov 2004 20:47:17, Marc Brett wrote:

On 8 Nov 2004 08:49:56 -0800, (Buttoneer) wrote:

I'm getting really quite fed up with the different crazy bus lane
rules all over even small parts of London.

What's the problem with making them all 24/7? Seriously. When traffic is
heavy, the buses get a lane to themselves, as it should be. When traffic is
light, there's no need for cars to use the extra lane anyway. And, of course,
it ends the confusion of when it is or is not a bus lane.

I'd go with that - as long as motor-cycles can use bus lanes at all
times...

(A motor-bike has *never* been known to hold up a bus, at least that's
what Google leads me to believe.)

Motor-bikes using bus-lanes are more likely to be involved in
accidents because they go faster than the traffic in the outside lane
and may not be obvious to other drivers and pedestrians until it is
too late (not always the rider's fault - but the risk is there just
the same). The buses also go faster but are much bigger and easier to
see.

And would you agree with 24hr bus lanes if you owned a small business
along a bus route? Part-time bus lanes may not be ideal, but are a
necessary compromise, unless you only want to shop at supermarkets.

Bus Lane Signs - Impossible to read - What's the solution
 

On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 07:50:58, UM Pston wrote:

Jim Crowther wrote in
message ...
On Mon, 8 Nov 2004 20:47:17, Marc Brett wrote:

On 8 Nov 2004 08:49:56 -0800, (Buttoneer) wrote:

I'm getting really quite fed up with the different crazy bus lane
rules all over even small parts of London.

What's the problem with making them all 24/7? Seriously. When traffic is
heavy, the buses get a lane to themselves, as it should be. When traffic is
light, there's no need for cars to use the extra lane anyway. And,
of course,
it ends the confusion of when it is or is not a bus lane.

I'd go with that - as long as motor-cycles can use bus lanes at all
times...

(A motor-bike has *never* been known to hold up a bus, at least that's
what Google leads me to believe.)

Motor-bikes using bus-lanes are more likely to be involved in
accidents because they go faster than the traffic in the outside lane
and may not be obvious to other drivers and pedestrians until it is
too late (not always the rider's fault - but the risk is there just
the same).

A biker would be foolish to 'roar' up the inside - they should use the
same care as when filtering at any time. 10-15mph faster than the
slow-moving or stationary traffic as a maximum.

The buses also go faster but are much bigger and easier to
see.

And would you agree with 24hr bus lanes if you owned a small business
along a bus route? Part-time bus lanes may not be ideal, but are a
necessary compromise, unless you only want to shop at supermarkets.

Granted. Personally I always check the bus-lane info, as often the cars
haven't spotted it's open for business, and sometimes bikes are allowed
anyway. :)

Indeed, not using an available bus lane when it is 'out-of-hours' is a
'minor' failure point on a driving test (car or bike).

--
Jim Crowther "It's MY computer" (tm SMG)

Always learning.

Bus Lane Signs - Impossible to read - What's the solution
 

On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 20:47:17 +0000, Marc Brett wrote:
On 8 Nov 2004 08:49:56 -0800, (Buttoneer) wrote:

What's the problem with making them all 24/7? Seriously. When traffic is
heavy, the buses get a lane to themselves, as it should be. When traffic is
light, there's no need for cars to use the extra lane anyway. And, of course,
it ends the confusion of when it is or is not a bus lane.

you clearly don't have a buslane out side your shop/house

--
u n d e r a c h i e v e r