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Eurostar to quit Waterloo
"John Rowland" wrote in
: "Graeme Wall" wrote in message ... once you do away with customs, immigration and insecurity. build a mezanine over the current sunken area before the barrier line and have level access to the platforms as per the rest of the station. I suspect customs etc at Waterloo will be mothballed rather than removed, because they will want somewhere to offload Johnny Foreigner if an incident closes the Stratford / St Pancras line. Can't see this happening. The new line will have Ashford, Ebbsfleet and Stratford for detraining is there is a problem at St. Pancras and I'd be surprised if the 3rd rail capability of the 373's wasn't removed at the first opportunity. |
Eurostar to quit Waterloo
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Eurostar to quit Waterloo
"Paul Cummins" wrote in message ... In article , (Dave Liney) wrote: None of Surrey is south-easy of London. Lingfield is south-east of London and in Surrey. Lingfield is due south of London City airport, and is one of the most easterly points in Surrey. Lingfield is both south and east of the City and the geographical centre of Greater London. And the reason I choose it was because it was the most easterly point I could remember. My post was a bit tongue in cheek. Kent is south-east of London, Surrey is south and Southwest. You don't say. Dave |
Eurostar to quit Waterloo
In message , at
11:40:00 on Wed, 17 Nov 2004, Colin Rosenstiel remarked: Thanks to CT's pathetic service to Stansted. Why do you say pathetic? I see it day to day and it seems pretty reliable these days. Even CT say (in the timetable) to allow an *extra* 2 hrs in between train arrival and check-in. It has no service on a Sunday morning, and only a sporadic one at other times. Trains are very liable to be cancelled southbound at Cambridge, when late running (which obviously also cancels the corresponding northbound one from the airport). -- Roland Perry |
Eurostar to quit Waterloo
In message , Mrs Redboots
writes I don't know about Mait001, but I was assuming these trains would not stop everywhere, just at major stations - Richmond perhaps, but not Barnes! And maybe not even Richmond.... first stop Feltham, perhaps, and make the most of the link to Heathrow? If they didn't stop at Putney, Richmond and Twickenham they wouldn't replace the existing service, they would have to be additional - and there is absolutely no way that line can take a more intense service west of Barnes. -- Paul Terry |
Eurostar to quit Waterloo
Peter Masson wrote:
[Eurostar platforms] It would not be difficult to use these platforms for Windsor Line trains, making it much less likely for any trains to have to queue up outside Waterloo waiting for platforms. But that wonn't make use of the platform length - it would probably be too expensive to extend any Windsor line station to take 12x20m trains, let alone 16- or 20-car. What were platforms 20-24 used for before construction of the Eurostar terminal? They looked forlorn and neglected the only time I remember seeing them in the late eighties. Was there a canopy that was demolished to make way for Eurostar? Theo |
Eurostar to quit Waterloo
Theo Markettos wrote to uk.transport.london on Wed, 17 Nov 2004:
What were platforms 20-24 used for before construction of the Eurostar terminal? They looked forlorn and neglected the only time I remember seeing them in the late eighties. Was there a canopy that was demolished to make way for Eurostar? Surely they were being built in the late 80s? Actually, I think they were built earlier - early 80s - but the construction of the Channel Tunnel was delayed so that they did sit mothballed for awhile. -- "Mrs Redboots" http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/ Website updated 6 November 2004 with new photos |
Eurostar to quit Waterloo
Terry Harper wrote:
"Solar Penguin" wrote in message ... --- Terry Harper said: I didn't say South East London, I said South-East of London, which covers large parts of Surrey, all of Kent and a large part of Sussex. Those who have the misfortune to live in Chairman Ken's domain have to put up with the consequences. What has Ken got to do with the decision to close Waterloo International? I didn't think TfL's authority covered international services. Or is this just a cheap party political shot that's got nothing to with the discussion...? No, it's a comment on the consequences of living in Greater London on one's choice of transport. The word, if it exists, is probably centrospective. Personally, I'd rather have Ken running my transport than the DfT, or whatever county council. At least things get done. -- Dave Arquati Imperial College, SW7 www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London |
Ebbsfleet (was Eurostar to quit Waterloo)
John Rowland wrote:
"Dave Arquati" wrote in message ... I believe that depends on the developers at Ebbsfleet. That whole area will be in the middle of a town in about ten years' time. Isn't it Green Belt? Errr... if it was, it isn't any more (so I'm guessing it wasn't!). Planning permission was granted last year for a 3,000 home + ~800,000m² commerical development called (at the moment) Kent Thameside. Part of the Prescott grand vision for the Thames Gateway I think. http://www.kt-s.co.uk Thankfully a generally-segregated bus system is planned for the area, with a network of buses running initially between Dartford, Bluewater, Greenhithe, Northfleet and Gravesend, with other legs added gradually afterwards (they expect to serve the international station by the time it opens). They mention a both local and express routes between Ebbsfleet and Gravesend. -- Dave Arquati Imperial College, SW7 www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London |
Eurostar to quit Waterloo
"Mrs Redboots" wrote in message ... Theo Markettos wrote to uk.transport.london on Wed, 17 Nov 2004: What were platforms 20-24 used for before construction of the Eurostar terminal? They looked forlorn and neglected the only time I remember seeing them in the late eighties. Was there a canopy that was demolished to make way for Eurostar? Surely they were being built in the late 80s? Actually, I think they were built earlier - early 80s - but the construction of the Channel Tunnel was delayed so that they did sit mothballed for awhile. The Eurostar platforms were built on the site of *old* platforms 16-21, which were the former Windsor line platforms, and were under the original roof of the 1885 North station. The rest of the station, and the concourse, were rebuilt between about 1908 and 1922. To make up for the platforms which were removed to make way for the Eurostar terminal, additional platforms were provided on the former cab road. Peter |
Eurostar to quit Waterloo
In message
"John Rowland" wrote: "Graeme Wall" wrote in message ... once you do away with customs, immigration and insecurity. build a mezanine over the current sunken area before the barrier line and have level access to the platforms as per the rest of the station. I suspect customs etc at Waterloo will be mothballed rather than removed, because they will want somewhere to offload Johnny Foreigner if an incident closes the Stratford / St Pancras line. KO as now I would assume. -- Graeme Wall This address is not read, substitute trains for rail. Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html |
Ebbsfleet (was Eurostar to quit Waterloo)
"Dave Arquati" wrote in message ... Isn't it Green Belt? Errr... if it was, it isn't any more (so I'm guessing it wasn't!). Planning permission was granted last year for a 3,000 home + ~800,000m² commerical development called (at the moment) Kent Thameside. Part of the Prescott grand vision for the Thames Gateway I think. http://www.kt-s.co.uk Thankfully a generally-segregated bus system is planned for the area, with a network of buses running initially between Dartford, Bluewater, Greenhithe, Northfleet and Gravesend, with other legs added gradually afterwards (they expect to serve the international station by the time it opens). They mention a both local and express routes between Ebbsfleet and Gravesend. Some of the area has been taken out of the Green Belt. One of the main development sites, Eastern Quarry, is an enormous chalk pit that stretches from Bluewater to Northfleet (the CTRL runs through this). Construction of the segregated bus network, which will run between Dartford and Gravesend, via Bluewater and Ebbsfleet, has started. Peter |
Eurostar to quit Waterloo
In article "Dave Arquati" writes:
Terry Harper wrote: snip No, it's a comment on the consequences of living in Greater London on one's choice of transport. The word, if it exists, is probably centrospective. Personally, I'd rather have Ken running my transport than the DfT, or whatever county council. You mean Ken Livingstone, the head of the local county council? What's the practical difference? -- _______ +---------------------------------------------------+ |\\ //| | Charles Ellson: | | \\ // | +---------------------------------------------------+ | | | // \\ | Alba gu brath |//___\\| |
Eurostar to quit Waterloo
On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 20:29:23 +0000, Mrs Redboots
wrote: Theo Markettos wrote to uk.transport.london on Wed, 17 Nov 2004: What were platforms 20-24 used for before construction of the Eurostar terminal? They looked forlorn and neglected the only time I remember seeing them in the late eighties. Was there a canopy that was demolished to make way for Eurostar? Surely they were being built in the late 80s? Actually, I think they were built earlier - early 80s - but the construction of the Channel Tunnel was delayed so that they did sit mothballed for awhile. They were certainly under construction during 1990-91 as I used Waterloo regularly during that period and can remember the building work going on. From memory, so the details may be incorrect, before the Eurostar terminal was built Waterloo had 21 platforms with something like platforms 18-21 on the site of the current Eurostar platforms. Space was found in the main part of the station to add two extra platforms. For a year or two during the construction work at least two of the platforms used by suburban trains to Wandsworth and points south-west started some way from the concourse. Martin |
Eurostar to quit Waterloo
"Martin Rich" wrote in message ... On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 20:29:23 +0000, Mrs Redboots wrote: Theo Markettos wrote to uk.transport.london on Wed, 17 Nov 2004: What were platforms 20-24 used for before construction of the Eurostar terminal? They looked forlorn and neglected the only time I remember seeing them in the late eighties. Was there a canopy that was demolished to make way for Eurostar? Surely they were being built in the late 80s? Actually, I think they were built earlier - early 80s - but the construction of the Channel Tunnel was delayed so that they did sit mothballed for awhile. They were certainly under construction during 1990-91 as I used Waterloo regularly during that period and can remember the building work going on. From memory, so the details may be incorrect, before the Eurostar terminal was built Waterloo had 21 platforms with something like platforms 18-21 on the site of the current Eurostar platforms. Space was found in the main part of the station to add two extra platforms. For a year or two during the construction work at least two of the platforms used by suburban trains to Wandsworth and points south-west started some way from the concourse. Martin My recollection of visits to Waterloo in the late 1960s suggest that at least part of the site of Waterloo International was carriage sidings, along with the lift used for stock exchanges to the Waterloo and City. Brian |
Eurostar to quit Waterloo
"Dave Arquati" wrote in message
... Terry Harper wrote: No, it's a comment on the consequences of living in Greater London on one's choice of transport. The word, if it exists, is probably centrospective. Personally, I'd rather have Ken running my transport than the DfT, or whatever county council. At least things get done. You miss the point, Dave. That is that transport in London tends to be almost exclusively radial. You have little option but to travel via the centre zone. -- Terry Harper, Web Co-ordinator, The Omnibus Society 75th Anniversary 2004, see http://www.omnibussoc.org/75th.htm E-mail: URL: http://www.terry.harper.btinternet.co.uk/ |
Eurostar to quit Waterloo
-- Terry Harper said: "Dave Arquati" wrote in message Terry Harper wrote: No, it's a comment on the consequences of living in Greater London on one's choice of transport. The word, if it exists, is probably centrospective. Personally, I'd rather have Ken running my transport than the DfT, or whatever county council. At least things get done. You miss the point, Dave. That is that transport in London tends to be almost exclusively radial. You have little option but to travel via the centre zone. Yes, that's true. But why did you bring Ken into it? The radial infrastructure was there for over a hundred years before he was elected. This is one of the few things he can't blamed for! |
Eurostar to quit Waterloo
In message , BH Williams
writes My recollection of visits to Waterloo in the late 1960s suggest that at least part of the site of Waterloo International was carriage sidings, along with the lift used for stock exchanges to the Waterloo and City. Correct. There were also a couple of large old BR office blocks, roughly where the new taxi drop-off road to Eurostar is now located. Incidentally, according to wikipedia, the Eurostar terminal was started in 1990 and opened in 1994. -- Paul Terry |
Eurostar to quit Waterloo
In article ,
Solar Penguin wrote: -- Terry Harper said: "Dave Arquati" wrote in message Terry Harper wrote: No, it's a comment on the consequences of living in Greater London on one's choice of transport. The word, if it exists, is probably centrospective. Personally, I'd rather have Ken running my transport than the DfT, or whatever county council. At least things get done. You miss the point, Dave. That is that transport in London tends to be almost exclusively radial. You have little option but to travel via the centre zone. Yes, that's true. But why did you bring Ken into it? The radial infrastructure was there for over a hundred years before he was elected. This is one of the few things he can't blamed for! ....and he is also pressing on with the ELL extension which will eventually, after completion of phase 2 to Clapham Jc, provide a full ring route around London in combination with the the NLL and WLL lines. David |
Eurostar to quit Waterloo
"Paul Terry" wrote in message ... In message , BH Williams writes My recollection of visits to Waterloo in the late 1960s suggest that at least part of the site of Waterloo International was carriage sidings, along with the lift used for stock exchanges to the Waterloo and City. Correct. There were also a couple of large old BR office blocks, roughly where the new taxi drop-off road to Eurostar is now located. Incidentally, according to wikipedia, the Eurostar terminal was started in 1990 and opened in 1994. -- Paul Terry Glad to know that the information storage facility isn't entirely full of fluff...BTW, I am told there is a press release today regarding the depot Temple Mills, which says definitively that this will REPLACE North Pole. Brian |
Eurostar to quit Waterloo
On Thu, 18 Nov 2004, gwr4090 wrote:
...and he is also pressing on with the ELL extension which will eventually, after completion of phase 2 to Clapham Jc, provide a full ring route around London in combination with the the NLL and WLL lines. It'd be like a rail version of the M25, and if the Crosslink experiment on the NLL and WLL is anything to go by, it'll have speeds to match :) -- Chris Johns |
Eurostar to quit Waterloo
On Tue, 16 Nov 2004, Neil Williams wrote:
On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 21:37:06 -0000, "John Rowland" wrote: I suspect customs etc at Waterloo will be mothballed rather than removed, because they will want somewhere to offload Johnny Foreigner if an incident closes the Stratford / St Pancras line. Kensington Olympia? Okay, i give up. Why are there customs and immigration facilities at Kensington Olympia? tom -- Annoying others means you are wise; it is when you annoy yourself that you are truly enlightened. -- The Bullet Proof Monk |
Eurostar to quit Waterloo
BH Williams wrote:
"Paul Terry" wrote in message ... In message , BH Williams writes My recollection of visits to Waterloo in the late 1960s suggest that at least part of the site of Waterloo International was carriage sidings, along with the lift used for stock exchanges to the Waterloo and City. Correct. There were also a couple of large old BR office blocks, roughly where the new taxi drop-off road to Eurostar is now located. Incidentally, according to wikipedia, the Eurostar terminal was started in 1990 and opened in 1994. -- Paul Terry Glad to know that the information storage facility isn't entirely full of fluff...BTW, I am told there is a press release today regarding the depot Temple Mills, which says definitively that this will REPLACE North Pole. Brian http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/st...352149,00.html -- Dave Arquati Imperial College, SW7 www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London |
Eurostar to quit Waterloo
"Tom Anderson" wrote
Okay, i give up. Why are there customs and immigration facilities at Kensington Olympia? They're in the huts and other buildings on the Northbound platform at Kensington. They were there as a contingency plan, but so far I think, never used. Nev |
Eurostar to quit Waterloo
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Eurostar to quit Waterloo
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Eurostar to quit Waterloo
"Solar Penguin" wrote in message
... Yes, that's true. But why did you bring Ken into it? The radial infrastructure was there for over a hundred years before he was elected. This is one of the few things he can't blamed for! I didn't, except to define Greater London. -- Terry Harper, Web Co-ordinator, The Omnibus Society 75th Anniversary 2004, see http://www.omnibussoc.org/75th.htm E-mail: URL: http://www.terry.harper.btinternet.co.uk/ |
Eurostar to quit Waterloo
In article ,
(Theo Markettos) wrote: What were platforms 20-24 used for before construction of the Eurostar terminal? They looked forlorn and neglected the only time I remember seeing them in the late eighties. Was there a canopy that was demolished to make way for Eurostar? There were only 2 platforms, 20 and 21. There were also some sidings and the lift used for access to the Waterloo and City Line. -- Colin Rosenstiel |
Eurostar to quit Waterloo
On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 13:38:34 +0000, Tom Anderson
wrote: Okay, i give up. Why are there customs and immigration facilities at Kensington Olympia? So a Eurostar can terminate there in the event of Waterloo being unavailable for any reason. I believe it has happened once or twice - though ISTR that Customs and Excise didn't show any interest when it did. Neil |
Eurostar to quit Waterloo
In message
Tom Anderson wrote: On Tue, 16 Nov 2004, Neil Williams wrote: On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 21:37:06 -0000, "John Rowland" wrote: I suspect customs etc at Waterloo will be mothballed rather than removed, because they will want somewhere to offload Johnny Foreigner if an incident closes the Stratford / St Pancras line. Kensington Olympia? Okay, i give up. Why are there customs and immigration facilities at Kensington Olympia? because they will want somewhere to offload Johnny Foreigner if an incident closes Waterloo. -- Graeme Wall This address is not read, substitute trains for rail. Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html |
Eurostar to quit Waterloo
--- Colin Rosenstiel said: (Theo Markettos) wrote: What were platforms 20-24 used for before construction of the Eurostar terminal? There were only 2 platforms, 20 and 21. There were also some sidings and the lift used for access to the Waterloo and City Line. Are you sure? IIRC there were for platforms (18-21) but when they were demolished, two new Southampton line platforms were opened up in the centre of the station, to make up for it, and the Windsor lines -- including the platform numbers -- were shifted along to make room. (I'm not putting this into words very well, but it makes sense if you think about it.) |
Eurostar to quit Waterloo
On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 09:47:12 -0000, Solar Penguin wrote:
--- Colin Rosenstiel said: (Theo Markettos) wrote: What were platforms 20-24 used for before construction of the Eurostar terminal? There were only 2 platforms, 20 and 21. There were also some sidings and the lift used for access to the Waterloo and City Line. Are you sure? IIRC there were for platforms (18-21) but when they were demolished, two new Southampton line platforms were opened up in the centre of the station, to make up for it, and the Windsor lines -- including the platform numbers -- were shifted along to make room. (I'm not putting this into words very well, but it makes sense if you think about it.) What we really need is someone like Clive to popup with an ASCII diagram of before and after. David |
Eurostar to quit Waterloo
"Nev Arthur" wrote in
message ... "Tom Anderson" wrote Okay, i give up. Why are there customs and immigration facilities at Kensington Olympia? They're in the huts and other buildings on the Northbound platform at Kensington. They were there as a contingency plan, but so far I think, never used. Wouldn't like 24 coaches of angry visitors getting onto the 3tph district service from Kenny - then most of them would change at Earls Court for district or Picadilly - argh! It's easy to jump over the wall onto the district line too. -- Everything above is the personal opinion of the author, and nothing to do with where he works and all that lovely disclaimery stuff. Posted in his lunch hour too. |
Eurostar to quit Waterloo
In article ,
Solar Penguin wrote: Are you sure? IIRC there were for platforms (18-21) but when they were demolished, two new Southampton line platforms were opened up in the centre of the station, to make up for it, and the Windsor lines -- including the platform numbers -- were shifted along to make room. (I'm not putting this into words very well, but it makes sense if you think about it.) There were at least four platforms - two side ones (with a wall between them and the new trainshed, I presume the same wall that's still there now) and one island platform. Like the E* platforms today, the outer parts were on quite a curve, and bore the painted markings "MIND THE GAP". I always wanted to alter it to "MIND THE HAP" and photograph one of the nx2HAPs which frequented that side for many years. Nick -- http://www.leverton.org/ ... So express yourself ... |
Eurostar to quit Waterloo
Back in May this year I was in a EuroStar train from Paris to London which
appeared to get lost. At any rate we eventually went in to Kensington Olympia. The carriage doors remained locked and a tannoy voice said that nobody could get out there because we had to go thru to Waterloo for Customs and Immigration. That was bull**** because of course we had done both French and British Customs at the Gare du Nord in Paris. After about half an hour of hanging around Olympia we eventually went to Waterloo. The train did not have to reverse en route. Once at Waterloo there were no further immigration or Customs checks. "Matthew" wrote in message ... Is there a direct link from Eurostar to Olympia, without reversing at Waterloo? Marc. When the rail link opens, it'll be via the North London Line. |
Eurostar to quit Waterloo
"Colin Wilson" wrote in message ... After about half an hour of hanging around Olympia we eventually went to Waterloo. The train did not have to reverse en route. You would have definitely reversed at Kensington Olympia. There is no other way back to Waterloo. The route that would have been taken from Brixton would have involved diverging left across Factory Junction, at Wandsworth Road, rather than continuing over Stewarts Lane flyover, then dropping under the Victoria and Waterloo lines to gain the northbound West London line at Latchmere Junctions, then continuing to Olympia. From Olympia the train would have reversed to Latchmere No. 3 Junction before taking the curve to join the South Western main line to Waterloo at West London Junction, rejoining the normal route just after the Stewarts Lane flyover trails in. |
Eurostar to quit Waterloo
Martin Whelton wrote:
A great shame trains are not going to run into Waterloo. For an extra journey time of 20 mins the benefits are more then made up when you consider the extra amount of time it will take to get to St Pancras. When completed St Pancras will be a superb building, but to withdraw service from Waterloo could potentially lead to lost revenue as people from South West London decide on Heathrow as an easier option. Yes, the railways may lose a small amount of revenue by closing Waterloo International. But the additional cost of maintaining and serving two international terminal stations in London would be far higher than the revenue that will be lost from the few passengers who will defect to air travel or other means. It is about the best use of limited resources. Most passengers will be content to use SPI or Stratford or Ebbsfleet or Ashford for their Eurostar travels, and while it would be more convenient for some passengers if trains did continue to serve Waterloo, there is no justifiable case for doing so. -- Stevie D \\\\\ ///// Bringing dating agencies to the \\\\\\\__X__/////// common hedgehog since 2001 - "HedgeHugs" ___\\\\\\\'/ \'///////_____________________________________________ |
Eurostar to quit Waterloo
Colin Wilson wrote:
Back in May this year I was in a EuroStar train from Paris to London which appeared to get lost. At any rate we eventually went in to Kensington Olympia. The carriage doors remained locked and a tannoy voice said that nobody could get out there because we had to go thru to Waterloo for Customs and Immigration. That was bull**** because of course we had done both French and British Customs at the Gare du Nord in Paris. You went through British Immigration at the Gare du Nord but not British Customs. -- John Ray, London UK. |
Eurostar to quit Waterloo
"Stevie D" wrote in message ... Martin Whelton wrote: A great shame trains are not going to run into Waterloo. For an extra journey time of 20 mins the benefits are more then made up when you consider the extra amount of time it will take to get to St Pancras. When completed St Pancras will be a superb building, but to withdraw service from Waterloo could potentially lead to lost revenue as people from South West London decide on Heathrow as an easier option. Yes, the railways may lose a small amount of revenue by closing Waterloo International. But the additional cost of maintaining and serving two international terminal stations in London would be far higher than the revenue that will be lost from the few passengers who will defect to air travel or other means. It is about the best use of limited resources. Most passengers will be content to use SPI or Stratford or Ebbsfleet or Ashford for their Eurostar travels, and while it would be more convenient for some passengers if trains did continue to serve Waterloo, there is no justifiable case for doing so. Your argument defies logic; how can it be demonstrated that there are not enough resources to maintain services to Waterloo and yet open not one but three new station to replace it? I don't know where E* passengers originate from but it is a good bet that a large proportion of them are in direct rail communication with Waterloo. It is these passengers who, if there is a regional airport close by, will desert E* simply because their current relatively seamless journey would be extended by at least half an hour and involve enduring travel on one of the worst underground lines. There is another matter which has not been noted in this discussion large sums have been invested in infrastructure to get E* to Waterloo the most recent being the relaying of the line on the Gravesend West branch to Longfield and the burrowing junction at Shortlands. Whilst the latter has a general use why should the other capital investments be wasted? MJW |
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