Eurostar to quit Waterloo
 

The Daily Telegraph reports that Eurostar will quit Waterloo in 2007.

I think this is a good idea. Even from Waterloo, it would be quicket
to take the tube to St Pancras and then take a fast Eurostar.

The question is, what will happen to the 4 400m long platforms. On
previuos form, the rail companies will consider the issue in 2007,
make a decision in 2009, order rolling stock in 2010, and start using
them properly in 2014.

My suggestion. Act now, build extended, 400m platforms at a few outer
London station (perhaps Surbiton and Staines), and use these to
consolidate 8 carriage trains into 16 carriage trains for the final
trip through London.

This needs preperation now, but SW Trains, or DfT, will probably do
nothing till 2007.



Eurostar will drop Waterloo services when link opens
By Paul Marston, Transport Correspondent
(Filed: 15/11/2004)

Eurostar has dropped long-standing plans to continue to run some
services from London Waterloo when the high-speed link to the Channel
Tunnel is completed in 2007.


The Anglo-French company is expected to announce today that it will
close Waterloo International, from which it had previously intended to
operate about a third of trains to the Continent, when the faster
route into St Pancras opens.

The decision means that customers from south of the Thames will have
to travel considerably further to reach trains to Paris and Brussels,
though the track and platform capacity vacated at Waterloo will become
available to improve the reliability of domestic commuter services.

The international station, built for £130 million in 1993 and famed
for its glass roof, has four platforms and controls about 50 train
pathways a day, which could be transferred to South West Trains to
relieve overcrowding.

More than 1,400 Eurostar staff are employed at Waterloo and its
associated train depot at North Pole in west London. All will be given
the opportunity to transfer to St Pancras and a £300 million
yet-to-be-built depot at Temple Mills, near Stratford, in the East
End.

Senior executives at the train company have deliberated for almost a
year over whether to desert Waterloo, where Eurostar services began 10
years ago.

Some managers argued that lucrative business passengers in London's
affluent south-west suburbs would fly from Heathrow rather than
struggle across the capital to St Pancras if the Waterloo link were
severed.

They also maintained that French and Belgian business demand might
fall because Waterloo's dedicated non-stop Underground route to the
heart of the City was felt to be superior to the four-stop run on the
Northern line from St Pancras.

However the company's management board eventually decided that the
cost of maintaining two London bases would be too great.

It also concluded that the fact that journeys to Paris and Brussels
would be 20 minutes faster from St Pancras would lead inevitably to
the Waterloo route becoming viewed as a second-class option. Opening
of the final section of the high-speed link in early 2007 will cut
London-Paris times to 2hr 15min and London-Brussels to 1hr 53min.

Growth potential is seen as greater at St Pancras, because the station
- with adjoining King's Cross - has direct feeder services from the
East Coast and Midland main lines, Thameslink and six Tube routes.

Considerable debate took place over whether to change the station's
name because the fourth-century saint sparked little recognition among
the French and Belgians but St Pancras was a widely known name in
Britain.

Eurostar's board accepted, too, that the shift of London's
"International" rail title would spare French passengers any lingering
resentments about Napoleon's defeat in 1815.

Eurostar to quit Waterloo
 

"Alex Terrell" wrote

The decision means that customers from south of the Thames will have
to travel considerably further to reach trains to Paris and Brussels.


Hard on the heels of British Airways binning the Gatwick-Paris services!

Eurostar to quit Waterloo
 

In message , Alex
Terrell writes

The Daily Telegraph reports that Eurostar will quit Waterloo in 2007.

I think this is a good idea. Even from Waterloo, it would be quicket
to take the tube to St Pancras and then take a fast Eurostar.

There's no direct tube! It ought to be quicker to take the Jubilee
direct from Waterloo to Stratford and pick-up Eurostar there. However,
the interchange at Stratford looks as though it is going to be poor.

--
Paul Terry

Eurostar to quit Waterloo
 

"Alex Terrell" wrote in message
om...

My suggestion. Act now, build extended, 400m platforms at a few outer
London station (perhaps Surbiton and Staines), and use these to
consolidate 8 carriage trains into 16 carriage trains for the final
trip through London.

It would not be difficult to use these platforms for Windsor Line trains,
making it much less likely for any trains to have to queue up outside
Waterloo waiting for platforms. But that wonn't make use of the platform
length - it would probably be too expensive to extend any Windsor line
station to take 12x20m trains, let alone 16- or 20-car.

There could be a case for running 15x23m trains on the Southampton Main
Line, with platform extensions at, say, Woking, Basingstoke, Winchester,
Southampton Airport Parkway and Southampton Central. But to make use of the
long platforms at Waterloo, the Fast Lines on the SWML would have to cross
the Windsor Lines. I don't think there's room after the Chatham Line bridge
to get up to the Linford Street flyover, so it would mean something like
getting the Windsor Lines to dive under the Main Lines between Clapham
Junction and Culvert Road. The cost would be likely to get so many noughts
on it to destroy any business case.

There's also the question of what to do with all the passenger accommodation
at Waterloo International, waiting rooms, immigration offices, etc. Would it
convert into a shopping mall? ;-)

Peter

Eurostar to quit Waterloo
 

Why can't the Kent express or whatever it's going to be called use it
to connect at Ashford?

Eurostar to quit Waterloo
 

Alex Terrell wrote to uk.transport.london on Mon, 15 Nov 2004:

The Daily Telegraph reports that Eurostar will quit Waterloo in 2007.

I think this is a good idea. Even from Waterloo, it would be quicket
to take the tube to St Pancras and then take a fast Eurostar.

I wish I could agree with you. From where I live, in South London, it
was easy to get a bus to Waterloo - much easier, with luggage, than
faffing about on the Tube. Okay, Northern Line to Waterloo and Vicky
line to KingsX/St P are probably about the same in terms of time, but,
dammit, trains from Waterloo go on lines I use and know.... the trains
even go through Brixton Station! It won't be at all the same when they
have their dedicated track.
--
"Mrs Redboots"
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 6 November 2004 with new photos

Eurostar to quit Waterloo
 

Peter Masson wrote to uk.transport.london on Mon, 15 Nov 2004:

There's also the question of what to do with all the passenger accommodation
at Waterloo International, waiting rooms, immigration offices, etc. Would it
convert into a shopping mall? ;-)

Fairly easily, I would think. Last time I was there, it looked like one
anyway!
--
"Mrs Redboots"
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 6 November 2004 with new photos

Eurostar to quit Waterloo
 

In message , at 12:09:34 on Mon, 15
Nov 2004, Peter Masson remarked:
There's also the question of what to do with all the passenger accommodation
at Waterloo International, waiting rooms, immigration offices, etc. Would it
convert into a shopping mall? ;-)

Half of it is already shops.

Also, the routes through the terminal will have to be considered - while
getting on is relatively straight forward assuming they drop the
last-minute-only boarding scheme, getting off currently involves a
considerable walk through the bowels of the building.
--
Roland Perry

Eurostar to quit Waterloo
 

In article , Roland
Perry writes
Also, the routes through the terminal will have to be considered -
while getting on is relatively straight forward assuming they drop the
last-minute-only boarding scheme, getting off currently involves a
considerable walk through the bowels of the building.

Actually, if you work it out that won't be necessary.

Looking from the west side, the layout is something like this:

Platform level
----------------------------------------------------
| S | / \ /
Booking | E | / Departure \ / SEC = security
hall | C | / lounge \ / checks
---------------------------------------------
| C | \ /
Meet & | & | \ Arrivals / C&I = Customs &
greet area | I | \ area / Immigration
-----------------------------------------

Passengers go from the departure lounge into little foyers which lead to
the escalators and travalators. On arrival, these same foyers divert
them into further routes downwards into the arrivals area.

Remove the security and C&I mess, and you can send everyone through one
layer and take over the other layer for other purposes.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

Eurostar to quit Waterloo
 

I would suggestr that if E* quit Waterloo then they are going to upset a lot
of important people. However leaving them aside I would think that at least
50% of E* present ridership has direct access to Waterloo and as a result
of the move any saving on the journey time from St.Pancras will be lost in
getting to St. Pancras. I foresee that the gainers in this piece of muddled
thinking will be E* competitors the airlines. Services from Gatwick to Paris
and Brssels will be reinstated and new ones will start from Southampton and
possibly Shoreham.

There are two other matters which come to mind E* say they cannot afford
Waterloo and yet they can afford three new stations. Perhaps someone can say
how they will be able to justify Stratford and Ebbsfleet. E* is at pains to
tell us how they have carried 6M passengers so far this year but I seem to
remember that 10 years ago the projection was that by now that there would
be 16M passengers. With regard to interchange at Stratford the E*station is
about 1/3rd of a mile from Stratford ML, UD and DLR but this will be
ameliorated by the decision to require Union Railways North to provide a
travelator.

Perhaps it is just as well that the passenger usage predictions have proved
to be wide of the mark because dispersal of such a measure of usage from the
Kings Cross area would only serve to demonstrate just how wrong the decision
to abandon Waterloo was.
MJW

Eurostar to quit Waterloo
 

"Henry" wrote in message ...
"Alex Terrell" wrote

The decision means that customers from south of the Thames will have
to travel considerably further to reach trains to Paris and Brussels.


Hard on the heels of British Airways binning the Gatwick-Paris services!

I wonder if there is scope for a Gatwick-Paris train service?

Actually, a fast Gatwick to Ashford service could do the trip in 1
hour. Asford is set to become a major hub with the CTRL, so this might
be an idea.

Eurostar to quit Waterloo
 

Eurostar to quit Waterloo
 

In message , at 16:55:21 on Mon, 15
Nov 2004, Clive D. W. Feather remarked:
In article , Roland
Perry writes
Also, the routes through the terminal will have to be considered -
while getting on is relatively straight forward assuming they drop the
last-minute-only boarding scheme, getting off currently involves a
considerable walk through the bowels of the building.

Actually, if you work it out that won't be necessary.

Looking from the west side, the layout is something like this:

Platform level
----------------------------------------------------
| S | / \ /
Booking | E | / Departure \ / SEC = security
hall | C | / lounge \ / checks
---------------------------------------------
| C | \ /
Meet & | & | \ Arrivals / C&I = Customs &
greet area | I | \ area / Immigration
-----------------------------------------

Passengers go from the departure lounge into little foyers which lead
to the escalators and travalators. On arrival, these same foyers divert
them into further routes downwards into the arrivals area.

Remove the security and C&I mess, and you can send everyone through one
layer and take over the other layer for other purposes.

You've done just what I suggested and "considered the route through the
terminals". Having everyone use a single layers is a definite
possibility: it certainly shortens the "considerable walk" I was worried
about.
--
Roland Perry

Eurostar to quit Waterloo
 

"Henry" wrote in message
...
"Alex Terrell" wrote

The decision means that customers from south
of the Thames will have to travel considerably
further to reach trains to Paris and Brussels.

Hard on the heels of British Airways
binning the Gatwick-Paris services!

Maybe a fast train from Reading via Guildford, Redhill and Tonbridge to
Ashford would do the trick.

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

Eurostar to quit Waterloo
 

"M.Whitson" wrote in message
...
I would suggestr that if E* quit Waterloo then they are going to upset a
lot
of important people.

Do important people only live in London and the South East, with rail
connections directly into Waterloo?

SNIP
E* is at pains to
tell us how they have carried 6M passengers so far this year but I seem to
remember that 10 years ago the projection was that by now that there
would
be 16M passengers.

Perhaps because of factors: NoL Eurostar, 11th September, and the delay in
building CTRL, to name but a few?

I'd like to be able to travel from my local station (about 1/4 mile from my
home), and get to France with minimal interchanges and fuss.

Present journey - Nodding Donkey to Sheffield, then a MML HST/Meridian to
St. Pancras, tube to Waterloo, E* to Lille.

Ideal journey - Tram/train to Sheffield, E* to Lille, along HSL.

As much as I'd like to go on train, as we prefer it, I drive us down to
Ashford, or we fly from Manchester. I don't want to suffer multiple changes
and dragging of suitcases on the tube, just to London and the SE can have
Waterloo for their sole "exclusive" use.

Charley, Huddersfield

Eurostar to quit Waterloo
 

Paul Terry wrote in message ...
In message , Alex
Terrell writes

The Daily Telegraph reports that Eurostar will quit Waterloo in 2007.

I think this is a good idea. Even from Waterloo, it would be quicket
to take the tube to St Pancras and then take a fast Eurostar.

There's no direct tube! It ought to be quicker to take the Jubilee
direct from Waterloo to Stratford and pick-up Eurostar there. However,
the interchange at Stratford looks as though it is going to be poor.

Actually, it won't. If the Stratford International DLR link is mooted,
passengers will have level access from the Jubbly terminus to the
former westbound NLL platform, where they can catch the DLR to the
International station.

You are right about the lack of direct tube services; unfortunately,
the obvious choice of changing at Warren Street requires hiking
through the station. Too bad that Crossrail 3 will be opened after the
sun has burnt out...

Eurostar to quit Waterloo
 

"M.Whitson" wrote in message
...

With regard to interchange at Stratford the E*station is
about 1/3rd of a mile from Stratford ML, UD and DLR but this will be
ameliorated by the decision to require Union Railways North to provide a
travelator.

It's likely that DLR will take over Canning Town - Stratford LL from NLL,
and be extended to Stratford International. NLL will be diverted into the
Lea Valley platforms. Crossrail will take over from west of Custom House to
east of Silvertown.
Peter

Eurostar to quit Waterloo
 

"Charley_Ashbury" wrote in message
...

"M.Whitson" wrote in message
...
I would suggestr that if E* quit Waterloo then they are going to upset a
lot
of important people.

Do important people only live in London and the South East, with rail
connections directly into Waterloo?

I think you have missed the point. The important people are the denizens of
Whitehall and the Palace of Westminster both within a short taxi ride of
Waterloo. Also you cannot escape the fact that it is more than likely that a
very large proportion of E* passengers originate from locations with direct
access to Waterloo. Paris/Brussels bound passengers from more than 40 miles
north of London will find it far more convenient and less time consuming to
use their regional airport - Stanstead, Manchester, Liverpool Newcastle etc.
MJW

Eurostar to quit Waterloo
 

In message , TheOneKEA
writes

withdrawal of Eurostar from Waterloo

If the Stratford International DLR link is mooted, passengers will have
level access from the Jubbly terminus to the former westbound NLL
platform, where they can catch the DLR to the International station.

But you see how this compares with the current interchange at Waterloo:
it takes just a few seconds from SWT to Eurostar. We know that is
closing, but Stratford is still being argued over and the interchange at
Waterloo to the jubbly is hardly brilliant. Customers will inevitably
re-evaluate Heathrow, which is usually cheaper and in the future may
prove quicker.

I guess that Eurostar have done their sums, but I regard a single very
slick change (as at Waterloo at present) as a huge selling point. So do
Eurostar, but they now only express this in terms of customers coming
from the north and midlands (good luck to those customers ... but they
are not going to provide the enormous day-trip trade to the near-
continent that is possible from SW London).

I suspect Eurostar will lose a fair amount of traffic to Heathrow, and
I'm not convinced they will easily replace it. Strange for a company to
want to restrict its outlets ... and if the government was serious in
wanting to restrict air-traffic pollution, it might have stepped in
(perhaps Eurostar are hoping they still might!).

--
Paul Terry

Eurostar to quit Waterloo
 

In message
"Peter Masson" wrote:

[snip]

There could be a case for running 15x23m trains on the Southampton Main
Line, with platform extensions at, say, Woking, Basingstoke, Winchester,
Southampton Airport Parkway and Southampton Central.

Winchester would be a bugger to extend and Southampton Central would cause
problems I suspect, you'd have to extend at the country end.

--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html

Eurostar to quit Waterloo
 

In message k
Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 12:09:34 on Mon, 15
Nov 2004, Peter Masson remarked:
There's also the question of what to do with all the passenger
accommodation at Waterloo International, waiting rooms, immigration
offices, etc. Would it convert into a shopping mall? ;-)

Half of it is already shops.

Also, the routes through the terminal will have to be considered - while
getting on is relatively straight forward assuming they drop the
last-minute-only boarding scheme, getting off currently involves a
considerable walk through the bowels of the building.

Not necessary once you do away with customs, immigration and insecurity.
build a mezanine over the current sunken area before the barrier line and
have level access to the platforms as per the rest of the station.

--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html

Eurostar to quit Waterloo
 

A great shame trains are not going to run into Waterloo. For an extra
journey time of 20 mins the benefits are more then made up when you
consider the extra amount of time it will take to get to St Pancras.
When completed St Pancras will be a superb building, but to withdraw
service from Waterloo could potentially lead to lost revenue as people
from South West London decide on Heathrow as an easier option.

In terms of Waterloo International, I am sure all the vacated space
from Eurostar will be filled up by retail developments.

In terms of trains, it would be ideal terminus if a link was ever
built into Heathrow Airport, much more convenient then Padddington and
in the middle of London to boot. With the numbers using a Heathrow it
is an option that should not be dismissed,indeed it could run via the
West London line and on to Paddington that way

In terms of North Pole how about use as the Crossrail depot, may save
the cost of building a depot at Romford and reduce costs on the
scheme.

Martin


Mrs Redboots wrote in message ...
Alex Terrell wrote to uk.transport.london on Mon, 15 Nov 2004:

The Daily Telegraph reports that Eurostar will quit Waterloo in 2007.

I think this is a good idea. Even from Waterloo, it would be quicket
to take the tube to St Pancras and then take a fast Eurostar.

I wish I could agree with you. From where I live, in South London, it
was easy to get a bus to Waterloo - much easier, with luggage, than
faffing about on the Tube. Okay, Northern Line to Waterloo and Vicky
line to KingsX/St P are probably about the same in terms of time, but,
dammit, trains from Waterloo go on lines I use and know.... the trains
even go through Brixton Station! It won't be at all the same when they
have their dedicated track.

Eurostar to quit Waterloo
 

"M.Whitson" wrote in message
...

I think you have missed the point. The important people are the denizens
of
Whitehall and the Palace of Westminster both within a short taxi ride of
Waterloo. Also you cannot escape the fact that it is more than likely that
a
very large proportion of E* passengers originate from locations with
direct
access to Waterloo. Paris/Brussels bound passengers from more than 40
miles
north of London will find it far more convenient and less time consuming
to
use their regional airport - Stanstead, Manchester, Liverpool Newcastle
etc.

Those from South-East of London find it more convenient to go to Ashford,
rather than go into London, transfer to Waterloo, walk down a very long
platform, and return whence they came. Gatwick was much more convenient, but
nature abhors a vacuum.
--
Terry Harper
http://www.terry.harper.btinternet.co.uk/

Eurostar to quit Waterloo
 

Paul Terry wrote:
In message ,
TheOneKEA writes


).

I suspect Eurostar will lose a fair amount of traffic to Heathrow, and
I'm not convinced they will easily replace it. Strange for a company
to want to restrict its outlets ... and if the government was serious
in wanting to restrict air-traffic pollution, it might have stepped in
(perhaps Eurostar are hoping they still might!).

Or a new boy on the block that will also offer trains through the
Channel Tunnel, competition anyone?

Eurostar to quit Waterloo
 

TheOneKEA wrote:
Paul Terry wrote in message ...

In message , Alex
Terrell writes


The Daily Telegraph reports that Eurostar will quit Waterloo in 2007.

I think this is a good idea. Even from Waterloo, it would be quicket
to take the tube to St Pancras and then take a fast Eurostar.

There's no direct tube! It ought to be quicker to take the Jubilee
direct from Waterloo to Stratford and pick-up Eurostar there. However,
the interchange at Stratford looks as though it is going to be poor.


Actually, it won't. If the Stratford International DLR link is mooted,
passengers will have level access from the Jubbly terminus to the
former westbound NLL platform, where they can catch the DLR to the
International station.

You are right about the lack of direct tube services; unfortunately,
the obvious choice of changing at Warren Street requires hiking
through the station. Too bad that Crossrail 3 will be opened after the
sun has burnt out...

Waterloo to King's Cross isn't terrible - if it's done via the
cross-platform interchange at Oxford Circus. However, it's not the most
obvious route (which I reckon, from the tube map, looks like via
Leicester Square). Perhaps they should put up really big signs at
Waterloo...

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Eurostar to quit Waterloo
 

In article , (Dave Arquati)
wrote:

Waterloo to King's Cross isn't terrible - if it's done via the
cross-platform interchange at Oxford Circus. However, it's not the most
obvious route (which I reckon, from the tube map, looks like via
Leicester Square). Perhaps they should put up really big signs at
Waterloo...

I agree. Years ago they had little lights up to show passengers the best
route.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Eurostar to quit Waterloo
 

In message , Dave Arquati
writes

Waterloo to King's Cross isn't terrible - if it's done via the
cross-platform interchange at Oxford Circus.

No, but the point is that there will now be three interchanges each way
where there is now only one.

Six interchanges on a return trip to the continent where there are now
only two.

I fear this will be a big disincentive to use Eurostar.

However, it's not the most obvious route (which I reckon, from the tube
map, looks like via Leicester Square). Perhaps they should put up
really big signs at Waterloo...

For SWT services that stop at Vauxhall, the Victoria line to King's
Cross will be a better bet - but the interchange at Vauxhall, with
luggage, in the rush hour, is an abomination.

--
Paul Terry

Eurostar to quit Waterloo
 

In message , at 23:03:05 on Mon,
15 Nov 2004, Terry Harper remarked:
Those from South-East of London find it more convenient to go to Ashford,
rather than go into London, transfer to Waterloo, walk down a very long
platform, and return whence they came. Gatwick was much more convenient, but
nature abhors a vacuum.

A year ago I had to plan a trip that involved an international flight
into Gatwick early morning, then getting to Brussels by lunchtime. There
was only one flight, which was too early. A train to Ashford was too
slow to make a useful connection with any of the few trains that stop at
Ashford. So I could only make it via Gatwick Express, Victoria and
Waterloo.

But my inbound flight was very late, and the next best plan was to drive
to Ashford and get to Brussels by teatime ahead of the second day of the
meeting (at least then I could drive straight home from Ashford on the
way back, rather than getting a train to Gatwick then driving home).

Integrated transport! Don't make me laugh.

--
Roland Perry

Eurostar to quit Waterloo
 

In message , at 07:08:03 on Tue, 16 Nov
2004, Paul Terry remarked:
For SWT services that stop at Vauxhall, the Victoria line to King's
Cross will be a better bet - but the interchange at Vauxhall, with
luggage, in the rush hour, is an abomination.

The interchange at KX isn't a picnic either. Although I hope they'll do
something about all the stairs as part of the St Pancras upgrade.
--
Roland Perry

Eurostar to quit Waterloo
 

Paris/Brussels bound passengers from more than 40 miles
north of London will find it far more convenient and less time consuming
to
use their regional airport - Stanstead, Manchester, Liverpool Newcastle
etc.
MJW



Please watch your comma use - "..Liverpool, Newcastle...." - us up here in
the centre of the universe don't need to be associated with an obscure
Midlands city like Liverpool!

Envo

Eurostar to quit Waterloo
 

Paul Terry wrote in message ...
In message , TheOneKEA
writes

withdrawal of Eurostar from Waterloo

If the Stratford International DLR link is mooted, passengers will have
level access from the Jubbly terminus to the former westbound NLL
platform, where they can catch the DLR to the International station.

But you see how this compares with the current interchange at Waterloo:
it takes just a few seconds from SWT to Eurostar. We know that is
closing, but Stratford is still being argued over and the interchange at
Waterloo to the jubbly is hardly brilliant. Customers will inevitably
re-evaluate Heathrow, which is usually cheaper and in the future may
prove quicker.

Maybe customers in SWT-land. But what about customers on the Central
Line? Or customers living in Beckton? Or folks on the District?

IMO, whatever custom Eurostar *might* lose by closing Waterloo and
forcing folks to go to St. Pancras and Stratford will undoubtedly be
reversed by the much larger numbers of people who will be able to get
to Stratford far more easily (and cheaply!) than Waterloo.


I guess that Eurostar have done their sums, but I regard a single very
slick change (as at Waterloo at present) as a huge selling point. So do
Eurostar, but they now only express this in terms of customers coming
from the north and midlands (good luck to those customers ... but they
are not going to provide the enormous day-trip trade to the near-
continent that is possible from SW London).

I suspect Eurostar will lose a fair amount of traffic to Heathrow, and
I'm not convinced they will easily replace it. Strange for a company to
want to restrict its outlets ... and if the government was serious in
wanting to restrict air-traffic pollution, it might have stepped in
(perhaps Eurostar are hoping they still might!).

As I've already stated, I feel that whatever traffic Eurostar might
lose at Waterloo, it will regain in spades at Stratford. *Especially*
if the Stratford International is opened in a timely fashion.

Eurostar to quit Waterloo
 

Problem with Vauxhall is the stairs...

And not all trains stop at Vauxhall.... plus the gap.
"Paul Terry" wrote in message
...
In message , Dave Arquati
writes

Waterloo to King's Cross isn't terrible - if it's done via the
cross-platform interchange at Oxford Circus.

No, but the point is that there will now be three interchanges each way
where there is now only one.

Six interchanges on a return trip to the continent where there are now
only two.

I fear this will be a big disincentive to use Eurostar.

However, it's not the most obvious route (which I reckon, from the tube
map, looks like via Leicester Square). Perhaps they should put up
really big signs at Waterloo...

For SWT services that stop at Vauxhall, the Victoria line to King's
Cross will be a better bet - but the interchange at Vauxhall, with
luggage, in the rush hour, is an abomination.

--
Paul Terry

Eurostar to quit Waterloo
 

In message , TheOneKEA
writes

Paul Terry wrote in message
...

Customers will inevitably re-evaluate Heathrow, which is usually
cheaper and in the future may prove quicker.

Maybe customers in SWT-land.

Those are the ones we are discussing, yes.

But what about customers on the Central
Line? Or customers living in Beckton? Or folks on the District?

They are likely to have to suffer the appalling interchange planned for
Stratford. The last I heard, Union Railways are even resisting putting
in a travelator (it is rumoured they want to force people to walk past a
quarter of mile of shops to get to the International station).

IMO, whatever custom Eurostar *might* lose by closing Waterloo and
forcing folks to go to St. Pancras and Stratford will undoubtedly be
reversed by the much larger numbers of people who will be able to get
to Stratford far more easily (and cheaply!) than Waterloo.

But will such people want or need to use Eurostar?

And why should a company merely want to replace one cohort of customers
with another? Most would use an opportunity such as this to *increase*
their customer base by *adding* all those new fares from Stratford, not
by using them to replace lost Waterloo customers.

As I've already stated, I feel that whatever traffic Eurostar might
lose at Waterloo, it will regain in spades at Stratford.

To a large extent it will depend on whether those needing to go to
Brussels and Paris for business meetings, or choosing to go there on
leisure breaks, live mainly in SW London or in Beckton etc. I suspect it
is mostly the former, and Eurostar are therefore going to be forced to
start building a new customer base from scratch instead of building on
their existing market.

--
Paul Terry

Eurostar to quit Waterloo
 

--- M.Whitson saked:


E* say they cannot afford Waterloo and yet they can afford
three new stations. Perhaps someone can say how they will
be able to justify Stratford and Ebbsfleet

Easy. From the money they save by closing Waterloo.

Eurostar to quit Waterloo
 

--- Charley_Ashbury said:


As much as I'd like to go on train, as we prefer it, I drive us down
to
Ashford, or we fly from Manchester. I don't want to suffer multiple
changes
and dragging of suitcases on the tube, just to London and the SE can
have
Waterloo for their sole "exclusive" use.


I think you've missed the point. Those of us in London and the SE want
Waterloo *as well as* St. Pancras. Just having one or the other is
always going to be inconvenient for someone.

Eurostar to quit Waterloo
 

--- Terry Harper said:

Those from South-East of London find it more convenient to go to
Ashford,
rather than go into London, transfer to Waterloo, walk down a very
long
platform, and return whence they came. Gatwick was much more
convenient, but
nature abhors a vacuum.

Some parts of South East London, maybe? But what about those of us in
other parts of South London? To get from here to Ashford, I'd probably
have to go to Victoria or London Bridge and change for a semi-fast train
out to Ashford, taking forever to get there. And again on the way back.
There'd be no time left to enjoy my day trip to Paris at all.

Eurostar to quit Waterloo
 

Dave Arquati wrote in message ...
TheOneKEA wrote:
Paul Terry wrote in message ...

In message , Alex
Terrell writes


The Daily Telegraph reports that Eurostar will quit Waterloo in 2007.

I think this is a good idea. Even from Waterloo, it would be quicket
to take the tube to St Pancras and then take a fast Eurostar.

There's no direct tube! It ought to be quicker to take the Jubilee
direct from Waterloo to Stratford and pick-up Eurostar there. However,
the interchange at Stratford looks as though it is going to be poor.


Actually, it won't. If the Stratford International DLR link is mooted,
passengers will have level access from the Jubbly terminus to the
former westbound NLL platform, where they can catch the DLR to the
International station.

You are right about the lack of direct tube services; unfortunately,
the obvious choice of changing at Warren Street requires hiking
through the station. Too bad that Crossrail 3 will be opened after the
sun has burnt out...

Waterloo to King's Cross isn't terrible - if it's done via the
cross-platform interchange at Oxford Circus. However, it's not the most
obvious route (which I reckon, from the tube map, looks like via
Leicester Square). Perhaps they should put up really big signs at
Waterloo...

There is of course Waterloo East to Northfleet (50 min), which could
perhaps be Waterloo to Ebsfleet. However, if I remember from the
plans, the North Kent line trains will still use Northfleet, which is
several hundred metres from Ebbsfleet. When the Crossrail terminus is
built ....

Eurostar to quit Waterloo
 

"Peter Masson" wrote in message ...
"Alex Terrell" wrote in message
om...

My suggestion. Act now, build extended, 400m platforms at a few outer
London station (perhaps Surbiton and Staines), and use these to
consolidate 8 carriage trains into 16 carriage trains for the final
trip through London.

It would not be difficult to use these platforms for Windsor Line trains,
making it much less likely for any trains to have to queue up outside
Waterloo waiting for platforms. But that wonn't make use of the platform
length - it would probably be too expensive to extend any Windsor line
station to take 12x20m trains, let alone 16- or 20-car.

There could be a case for running 15x23m trains on the Southampton Main
Line, with platform extensions at, say, Woking, Basingstoke, Winchester,
Southampton Airport Parkway and Southampton Central. But to make use of the
long platforms at Waterloo, the Fast Lines on the SWML would have to cross
the Windsor Lines. I don't think there's room after the Chatham Line bridge
to get up to the Linford Street flyover, so it would mean something like
getting the Windsor Lines to dive under the Main Lines between Clapham
Junction and Culvert Road. The cost would be likely to get so many noughts
on it to destroy any business case.

I was thinking you only need ONE inbound extension on each route, e.g
Woking or Surbiton, and Staines. Use this to consolidate trains.

There's also the question of what to do with all the passenger accommodation
at Waterloo International, waiting rooms, immigration offices, etc. Would it
convert into a shopping mall? ;-)

Undoubtedly.

They also need to build a travelator through the terminal to speed up
commuter flows.

Peter

Eurostar to quit Waterloo
 

"Peter Masson" wrote in message ...
"Alex Terrell" wrote in message
om...

My suggestion. Act now, build extended, 400m platforms at a few outer
London station (perhaps Surbiton and Staines), and use these to
consolidate 8 carriage trains into 16 carriage trains for the final
trip through London.

It would not be difficult to use these platforms for Windsor Line trains,
making it much less likely for any trains to have to queue up outside
Waterloo waiting for platforms. But that wonn't make use of the platform
length - it would probably be too expensive to extend any Windsor line
station to take 12x20m trains, let alone 16- or 20-car.

Not to mention the fact that they still can't even run a full complement
of 8 car trains of the new stocks on the 3rd rail system because of power
supply issues.

B2003

Eurostar to quit Waterloo
 

Terry Harper wrote to uk.transport.london on Mon, 15 Nov 2004:

Those from South-East of London find it more convenient to go to Ashford,
rather than go into London, transfer to Waterloo, walk down a very long
platform, and return whence they came. Gatwick was much more convenient, but
nature abhors a vacuum.

Not just south-east of London - my parents, who live about 15 miles west
of Brighton, go that way on the rare occasions they want to catch a E*.
--
"Mrs Redboots"
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 6 November 2004 with new photos