Crossrail was mentioned in a speech by some nice old lady today,
apparently, so the Beeb have an article on it:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/b...ts/4036327.stm

They say:

"It would allow trains serving the current Chiltern lines to run straight
into London and through to Essex."

That's wrong, right?

They also say:

"The second route would link Herts and Beds with Clapham Junction."

I take it they're referring to Crossrail 2; firstly, is that going to be
in the Crossrail bill, and secondly, is it going anywhere near
Hertfordshire and Bedfordshire? The last i heard was that it was going to
take over a bit of the Central Line, which i thought was in Essex. Or is
it all still up in the air? Is anyone even thinking about it seriously?

tom

--
REMOVE AND DESTROY

Tom Anderson wrote:
Crossrail was mentioned in a speech by some nice old lady today,
apparently, so the Beeb have an article on it:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/b...ts/4036327.stm

They say:

"It would allow trains serving the current Chiltern lines to run straight
into London and through to Essex."

That's wrong, right?

Definitely wrong. The scheme used to "go" to Aylesbury but that branch
was dropped pretty soon after CLRL took the project on board a few years
ago.

They also say:

"The second route would link Herts and Beds with Clapham Junction."

I take it they're referring to Crossrail 2; firstly, is that going to be
in the Crossrail bill, and secondly, is it going anywhere near
Hertfordshire and Bedfordshire? The last i heard was that it was going to
take over a bit of the Central Line, which i thought was in Essex. Or is
it all still up in the air? Is anyone even thinking about it seriously?

Beds is probably wrong, although it's very much up in the air. Herts
could get Crossrail 2 services; it depends if they decide to run any up
the Lea Valley line. Clapham Junction would almost definitely get
Crossrail 2.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004, Dave Arquati wrote:

Tom Anderson wrote:

"It would allow trains serving the current Chiltern lines to run straight
into London and through to Essex."

Definitely wrong. The scheme used to "go" to Aylesbury but that branch
was dropped pretty soon after CLRL took the project on board a few years
ago.

That's what i thought. That's really quite a while for the BBC to have
caught up!

"The second route would link Herts and Beds with Clapham Junction."

Beds is probably wrong, although it's very much up in the air. Herts
could get Crossrail 2 services; it depends if they decide to run any up
the Lea Valley line.

I hadn't heard about this idea (until i looked at your site, obviously).
It's pretty obvious - Stratford, Lea Valley Line (more or less unused for
passengers at the moment), Tottenham Hale, some set of stations to the
north (hopefully Stansted). Is it being seriously considered? For some
value of 'seriously' appropriate to the entirely hypothetical Crossrail 2,
of course.

Clapham Junction would almost definitely get Crossrail 2.

Almost? If it doesn't, someone's getting their legs broken.

Also, are they still going with this stupid tube gauge idea, or have they
seen sense?

tom

--
Optical illusions are terrorism of the mind.

Tom Anderson wrote:
On Tue, 23 Nov 2004, Dave Arquati wrote:


Tom Anderson wrote:


"It would allow trains serving the current Chiltern lines to run straight
into London and through to Essex."

Definitely wrong. The scheme used to "go" to Aylesbury but that branch
was dropped pretty soon after CLRL took the project on board a few years
ago.


That's what i thought. That's really quite a while for the BBC to have
caught up!

Well, it took them a *long* time to change the Southern stock photo
(although they did get to it in the end).

"The second route would link Herts and Beds with Clapham Junction."

Beds is probably wrong, although it's very much up in the air. Herts
could get Crossrail 2 services; it depends if they decide to run any up
the Lea Valley line.


I hadn't heard about this idea (until i looked at your site, obviously).
It's pretty obvious - Stratford, Lea Valley Line (more or less unused for
passengers at the moment), Tottenham Hale, some set of stations to the
north (hopefully Stansted). Is it being seriously considered? For some
value of 'seriously' appropriate to the entirely hypothetical Crossrail 2,
of course.

It would seem sensible for Crossrail 2 to take over the "one" services
from Stratford to Stansted and Hertford East starting next year, and
enhance them - especially given the desire to regenerate the Lea Valley.
A direct service from Stansted to the rest of Central London would also
be a bonus, if Stansted is to be expanded.

This is, of course, all entirely hypothetical. A route to Barnet and
Finchley via the closed Crouch End branch line from Finsbury Park has
even been proposed. They're just mulling over all the possible options
at the moment.

Clapham Junction would almost definitely get Crossrail 2.

Almost? If it doesn't, someone's getting their legs broken.

Quite. I only said "almost" because with these things (and with
politicians), you never know with 100% certainty that something is
definite until, for example, you see passengers get on a Crossrail 2
train at Clapham Junction and get successfully delivered to King's Cross...

Also, are they still going with this stupid tube gauge idea, or have they
seen sense?

Not sure about that. AIUI, the tube gauge route could include a useful
station at Piccadilly Circus which a mainline gauge route could not.
Then again, I don't think anyone's seriously proposing tube-gauge trains
to Stansted. It depends what branches they settle on and whether they
think Piccadilly Circus is a goal worth having for the sacrifice.


--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

On Wed, 24 Nov 2004, Dave Arquati wrote:

Tom Anderson wrote:
On Tue, 23 Nov 2004, Dave Arquati wrote:

Tom Anderson wrote:

"The second route would link Herts and Beds with Clapham Junction."

Beds is probably wrong, although it's very much up in the air. Herts
could get Crossrail 2 services; it depends if they decide to run any up
the Lea Valley line.

I hadn't heard about this idea (until i looked at your site,
obviously). It's pretty obvious - Stratford, Lea Valley Line (more or
less unused for passengers at the moment), Tottenham Hale, some set of
stations to the north (hopefully Stansted). Is it being seriously
considered? For some value of 'seriously' appropriate to the entirely
hypothetical Crossrail 2, of course.

It would seem sensible for Crossrail 2 to take over the "one" services
from Stratford to Stansted and Hertford East starting next year, and
enhance them - especially given the desire to regenerate the Lea Valley.
A direct service from Stansted to the rest of Central London would also
be a bonus, if Stansted is to be expanded.

Strongly agreed.

Of course, it would be yet another transport project which *just* misses
Hackney - after the ELL, stepping over the border into Dalston and then
fleeing to Islington, and the eternally promised but never delivered
prospect of Chelsea-Hackney.

This is, of course, all entirely hypothetical. A route to Barnet and
Finchley via the closed Crouch End branch line from Finsbury Park has
even been proposed.

Yes, because Finchley has such a shortage of rail links! And people in
Finsbury Park probably think trains are only a legend!

You know what really makes me want to cry? In Clapton, just up from where
i used to live, on the Upper Clapton Road, just before the corner shop
that's just down from the petrol station, there's a mural, presumably done
by local primary school children. It's charming, a really nice bit of twee
lefty local art/civicism stuff; it's virtually a regeneration area in its
own right. It's basically a painting of local life - tower blocks,
streets, parks, smiling, diverse Hackneyites, all that jazz. And you know
what's in the middle of it? A tube train. How they even knew what one
looked like escapes me.

Clapham Junction would almost definitely get Crossrail 2.

Almost? If it doesn't, someone's getting their legs broken.

Quite. I only said "almost" because with these things (and with
politicians), you never know with 100% certainty that something is
definite until, for example, you see passengers get on a Crossrail 2
train at Clapham Junction and get successfully delivered to King's
Cross...

!

Also, are they still going with this stupid tube gauge idea, or have they
seen sense?

Not sure about that. AIUI, the tube gauge route could include a useful
station at Piccadilly Circus which a mainline gauge route could not.
Then again, I don't think anyone's seriously proposing tube-gauge trains
to Stansted.

Oh, i don't know - if they take the Finsbury Park route down, they can
make it a spur on the Piccadilly, so people can go direct from Stansted to
Heathrow. That'll teach those air-travelling *******s a lesson!

It depends what branches they settle on and whether they think
Piccadilly Circus is a goal worth having for the sacrifice.

Is that a problem with mainline gauge per se, or with long platforms? It
seems hard to believe there isn't room for a mainline gauge station
anywhere in the area.

tom

--
Understand the world we're living in

Tom Anderson wrote:
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004, Dave Arquati wrote:


Tom Anderson wrote:

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004, Dave Arquati wrote:


Tom Anderson wrote:


"The second route would link Herts and Beds with Clapham Junction."

Beds is probably wrong, although it's very much up in the air. Herts
could get Crossrail 2 services; it depends if they decide to run any up
the Lea Valley line.

I hadn't heard about this idea (until i looked at your site,
obviously). It's pretty obvious - Stratford, Lea Valley Line (more or
less unused for passengers at the moment), Tottenham Hale, some set of
stations to the north (hopefully Stansted). Is it being seriously
considered? For some value of 'seriously' appropriate to the entirely
hypothetical Crossrail 2, of course.

It would seem sensible for Crossrail 2 to take over the "one" services
from Stratford to Stansted and Hertford East starting next year, and
enhance them - especially given the desire to regenerate the Lea Valley.
A direct service from Stansted to the rest of Central London would also
be a bonus, if Stansted is to be expanded.


Strongly agreed.

Of course, it would be yet another transport project which *just* misses
Hackney - after the ELL, stepping over the border into Dalston and then
fleeing to Islington, and the eternally promised but never delivered
prospect of Chelsea-Hackney.

Crossrail 2 *is* really Chelsea-Hackney - just evolved. In fact, it is
generally proposed to serve Hackney (Central). The oft-proposed route is
from King's Cross to Dalston (either via Highbury & Islington or via
Angel and Essex Road), then following the North London Line route to
Stratford. If this route were chosen, then it would seem to be a long
way round to serve the Lea Valley line from Stratford, and instead a
branch might leave at Hackney to head for Stansted.

Still all hypothetical of course - although the route from King's Cross
to Dalston, Hackney and then Stratford seems to be a recurring theme.

The problem with using the NLL route between Highbury and Stratford is
that it would be difficult to replicate it in a tunnel thanks to the
CTRL, and sharing tracks with the NLL itself would be a performance
liability - especially given the heavy freight use, the 6tph proposed
for the NLL and the further 4tph from the ELLX. Running Crossrail 2 this
way could mean NLL services being cut back.

This is, of course, all entirely hypothetical. A route to Barnet and
Finchley via the closed Crouch End branch line from Finsbury Park has
even been proposed.


Yes, because Finchley has such a shortage of rail links! And people in
Finsbury Park probably think trains are only a legend!

The conversion of the Parkland Walk back into a railway is likely to
raise some eyebrows.

You know what really makes me want to cry? In Clapton, just up from where
i used to live, on the Upper Clapton Road, just before the corner shop
that's just down from the petrol station, there's a mural, presumably done
by local primary school children. It's charming, a really nice bit of twee
lefty local art/civicism stuff; it's virtually a regeneration area in its
own right. It's basically a painting of local life - tower blocks,
streets, parks, smiling, diverse Hackneyites, all that jazz. And you know
what's in the middle of it? A tube train. How they even knew what one
looked like escapes me.

I'd give Hackney a good chance of being included in Crossrail 2, should
it ever be built. After all, the GN will have Thameslink 2000 and the GE
will have Crossrail 1 - there's really nowhere else for CR2 to go!

(snip)
It depends what branches they settle on and whether they think
Piccadilly Circus is a goal worth having for the sacrifice.

Is that a problem with mainline gauge per se, or with long platforms? It
seems hard to believe there isn't room for a mainline gauge station
anywhere in the area.

I'm not sure. All I know is that for some reason, fitting platforms like
Crossrail 1's into the space at Picc Circ is a big issue. It would be a
shame if they couldn't come up with an alternative engineering solution,
as I believe a station at Picc Circ would offer significant congestion
relief to the Piccadilly Line (all those tourists coming off CTRL and
heading for the West End!).


--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

On Thu, 25 Nov 2004, Dave Arquati wrote:

Tom Anderson wrote:
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004, Dave Arquati wrote:
Tom Anderson wrote:
On Tue, 23 Nov 2004, Dave Arquati wrote:
Tom Anderson wrote:

"The second route would link Herts and Beds with Clapham Junction."

Beds is probably wrong, although it's very much up in the air. Herts
could get Crossrail 2 services; it depends if they decide to run any up
the Lea Valley line.

I hadn't heard about this idea (until i looked at your site,
obviously). It's pretty obvious - Stratford, Lea Valley Line (more or
less unused for passengers at the moment), Tottenham Hale, some set of
stations to the north (hopefully Stansted). Is it being seriously
considered? For some value of 'seriously' appropriate to the entirely
hypothetical Crossrail 2, of course.

It would seem sensible for Crossrail 2 to take over the "one" services
from Stratford to Stansted and Hertford East starting next year, and
enhance them - especially given the desire to regenerate the Lea Valley.
A direct service from Stansted to the rest of Central London would also
be a bonus, if Stansted is to be expanded.

Strongly agreed.

Of course, it would be yet another transport project which *just*
misses Hackney - after the ELL, stepping over the border into Dalston
and then fleeing to Islington, and the eternally promised but never
delivered prospect of Chelsea-Hackney.

Crossrail 2 *is* really Chelsea-Hackney

Yes, i know - i just like the old name a lot more! The description
"eternally promised but never delivered" is as true under this name as any
previous.

- just evolved.

Hmph.

In fact, it is generally proposed to serve Hackney (Central). The
oft-proposed route is from King's Cross to Dalston (either via Highbury
& Islington or via Angel and Essex Road),

I hadn't heard of the Highbury & Islington option; is the idea to use the
NLL as some sort of cost-saving measure? Ah, ignore me, you answer this
below.

then following the North London Line route to Stratford. If this route
were chosen, then it would seem to be a long way round to serve the Lea
Valley line from Stratford, and instead a branch might leave at Hackney
to head for Stansted.

KX - Dalston i like, but going to Stratford is madness. People in
Stratford and beyond already have good ways into town, and no desire to go
to Hackney. Clearly, the only sensible solution is up the West Anglia from
Hackney.

The problem with using the NLL route between Highbury and Stratford is
that it would be difficult to replicate it in a tunnel thanks to the
CTRL, and sharing tracks with the NLL itself would be a performance
liability - especially given the heavy freight use, the 6tph proposed
for the NLL and the further 4tph from the ELLX. Running Crossrail 2 this
way could mean NLL services being cut back.

Indeed. Seems to be an ineffective way of doing something undesirable.

I'd give Hackney a good chance of being included in Crossrail 2, should
it ever be built. After all, the GN will have Thameslink 2000 and the GE
will have Crossrail 1 - there's really nowhere else for CR2 to go!

Crossrail 3!

tom

--
24-Hour Monkey-Vision!

Tom Anderson wrote:
On Thu, 25 Nov 2004, Dave Arquati wrote:
Tom Anderson wrote:
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004, Dave Arquati wrote:
Tom Anderson wrote:
On Tue, 23 Nov 2004, Dave Arquati wrote:
Tom Anderson wrote:

"The second route would link Herts and Beds with Clapham Junction."

Beds is probably wrong, although it's very much up in the air. Herts
could get Crossrail 2 services; it depends if they decide to run any up
the Lea Valley line.

I hadn't heard about this idea (until i looked at your site,
obviously). It's pretty obvious - Stratford, Lea Valley Line (more or
less unused for passengers at the moment), Tottenham Hale, some set of
stations to the north (hopefully Stansted). Is it being seriously
considered? For some value of 'seriously' appropriate to the entirely
hypothetical Crossrail 2, of course.

It would seem sensible for Crossrail 2 to take over the "one" services
from Stratford to Stansted and Hertford East starting next year, and
enhance them - especially given the desire to regenerate the Lea Valley.
A direct service from Stansted to the rest of Central London would also
be a bonus, if Stansted is to be expanded.

Strongly agreed.

Of course, it would be yet another transport project which *just*
misses Hackney - after the ELL, stepping over the border into Dalston
and then fleeing to Islington, and the eternally promised but never
delivered prospect of Chelsea-Hackney.

Crossrail 2 *is* really Chelsea-Hackney

Yes, i know - i just like the old name a lot more! The description
"eternally promised but never delivered" is as true under this name as any
previous.

'Tis Chelsea that's more likely to be bypassed.

- just evolved.

Hmph.

In fact, it is generally proposed to serve Hackney (Central). The
oft-proposed route is from King's Cross to Dalston (either via Highbury
& Islington or via Angel and Essex Road),

I hadn't heard of the Highbury & Islington option; is the idea to use the
NLL as some sort of cost-saving measure? Ah, ignore me, you answer this
below.

Hadn't that idea already been abandoned?

then following the North London Line route to Stratford. If this route
were chosen, then it would seem to be a long way round to serve the Lea
Valley line from Stratford, and instead a branch might leave at Hackney
to head for Stansted.

KX - Dalston i like, but going to Stratford is madness. People in
Stratford and beyond already have good ways into town, and no desire to go
to Hackney. Clearly, the only sensible solution is up the West Anglia from
Hackney.

I couldn't disagree more. Firstly, although Stratford's links with much
of Central London are good, there is no direct line to Kings Cross.
Secondly, Hackney's links with Stratford are currently inadequate - the
trains are infrequent, short and overcrowded. Thirdly, a well designed
Hackney station would incorporate Hackney Downs station, so you would
still get the benefits while the trains continue to serve the popular
destination of Liverpool Street.

The problem with using the NLL route between Highbury and Stratford is
that it would be difficult to replicate it in a tunnel thanks to the
CTRL, and sharing tracks with the NLL itself would be a performance
liability - especially given the heavy freight use, the 6tph proposed
for the NLL and the further 4tph from the ELLX. Running Crossrail 2 this
way could mean NLL services being cut back.

Indeed. Seems to be an ineffective way of doing something undesirable.

But sharing between Dalston and Stratford would not be a problem, as NLL
trains could be diverted to Bishopsgate and the ELL.

I'd give Hackney a good chance of being included in Crossrail 2, should
it ever be built. After all, the GN will have Thameslink 2000 and the GE
will have Crossrail 1 - there's really nowhere else for CR2 to go!

Crossrail 3!

I can think of a lot of possible routes for more Crossrail lines.
Unfortunately the routes aren't safeguarded, so constructing them would
probably require a lot of buildings to be demolished.

Aidan Stanger wrote:
Tom Anderson wrote:

On Thu, 25 Nov 2004, Dave Arquati wrote:

Tom Anderson wrote:

On Wed, 24 Nov 2004, Dave Arquati wrote:

Tom Anderson wrote:

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004, Dave Arquati wrote:

Tom Anderson wrote:


"The second route would link Herts and Beds with Clapham Junction."

Beds is probably wrong, although it's very much up in the air. Herts
could get Crossrail 2 services; it depends if they decide to run any up
the Lea Valley line.

I hadn't heard about this idea (until i looked at your site,
obviously). It's pretty obvious - Stratford, Lea Valley Line (more or
less unused for passengers at the moment), Tottenham Hale, some set of
stations to the north (hopefully Stansted). Is it being seriously
considered? For some value of 'seriously' appropriate to the entirely
hypothetical Crossrail 2, of course.

It would seem sensible for Crossrail 2 to take over the "one" services

from Stratford to Stansted and Hertford East starting next year, and

enhance them - especially given the desire to regenerate the Lea Valley.
A direct service from Stansted to the rest of Central London would also
be a bonus, if Stansted is to be expanded.

Strongly agreed.

Of course, it would be yet another transport project which *just*
misses Hackney - after the ELL, stepping over the border into Dalston
and then fleeing to Islington, and the eternally promised but never
delivered prospect of Chelsea-Hackney.

Crossrail 2 *is* really Chelsea-Hackney

Yes, i know - i just like the old name a lot more! The description
"eternally promised but never delivered" is as true under this name as any
previous.


'Tis Chelsea that's more likely to be bypassed.

RB Kensington & Chelsea are still clinging on to the hope that CR2 will
serve somewhere in Chelsea. They're not entirely off their rockers -
they consider a route from Victoria to Clapham Junction via Sloane
Square, King's Road (presumably somewhere near the Town Hall) and
Imperial Wharf to be desirable, and it would serve a larger population
that a simple direct tunnel to the Junction. The other main option is
via Battersea Park, and that would be popular with the Power Station
developers.

Interestingly, the CLRL map for CR2 shows an additional possible branch
from Victoria which does *not* go to Clapham Junction. That would
suggest a Chelsea & Putney route (which was in the original, safeguarded
plans).

- just evolved.

Hmph.


In fact, it is generally proposed to serve Hackney (Central). The
oft-proposed route is from King's Cross to Dalston (either via Highbury
& Islington or via Angel and Essex Road),

I hadn't heard of the Highbury & Islington option; is the idea to use the
NLL as some sort of cost-saving measure? Ah, ignore me, you answer this
below.


Hadn't that idea already been abandoned?


then following the North London Line route to Stratford. If this route
were chosen, then it would seem to be a long way round to serve the Lea
Valley line from Stratford, and instead a branch might leave at Hackney
to head for Stansted.

KX - Dalston i like, but going to Stratford is madness. People in
Stratford and beyond already have good ways into town, and no desire to go
to Hackney. Clearly, the only sensible solution is up the West Anglia from
Hackney.


I couldn't disagree more. Firstly, although Stratford's links with much
of Central London are good, there is no direct line to Kings Cross.
Secondly, Hackney's links with Stratford are currently inadequate - the
trains are infrequent, short and overcrowded. Thirdly, a well designed
Hackney station would incorporate Hackney Downs station, so you would
still get the benefits while the trains continue to serve the popular
destination of Liverpool Street.

Stratford will have a link to Farringdon with CR1; it's only a short hop
from there to King's Cross. And an upgrade of the NLL would go towards
improving links between Hackney and Stratford. I would say that giving
the West Anglia lines (particularly the Lea Valley) a direct link to the
West End would give greater regeneration benefits than going to
Stratford, which will already have some impressive new links.

The problem with using the NLL route between Highbury and Stratford is
that it would be difficult to replicate it in a tunnel thanks to the
CTRL, and sharing tracks with the NLL itself would be a performance
liability - especially given the heavy freight use, the 6tph proposed
for the NLL and the further 4tph from the ELLX. Running Crossrail 2 this
way could mean NLL services being cut back.

Indeed. Seems to be an ineffective way of doing something undesirable.


But sharing between Dalston and Stratford would not be a problem, as NLL
trains could be diverted to Bishopsgate and the ELL.

Removing a direct orbital link between Stratford and northwest/west
London would be a bad idea, IMHO. Interchange at Dalston would certainly
not be easy, as the ELL station is at Dalston Junction. Perhaps a CR2
route from Essex Road to Haggerston station and then Hackney would be
better - it could all be tunnelled (avoiding the CTRL tunnels, unlike
the NLL route), and would mean a less awkward curve at Hackney if it
took a West Anglia route.

I'd give Hackney a good chance of being included in Crossrail 2, should
it ever be built. After all, the GN will have Thameslink 2000 and the GE
will have Crossrail 1 - there's really nowhere else for CR2 to go!

Crossrail 3!


I can think of a lot of possible routes for more Crossrail lines.
Unfortunately the routes aren't safeguarded, so constructing them would
probably require a lot of buildings to be demolished.

We have east-west and a possible SW-NE. The other obvious connection is
NW-SE, to give Watford DC services a direct link to the City, and adding
extra capacity into London Bridge. The only problem there is that
apparently there is already extensive overprovision of services between
Queen's Park and Harrow.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

"Aidan Stanger" wrote in message
...

I couldn't disagree more. Firstly, although
Stratford's links with much of Central London
are good, there is no direct line to Kings Cross.

CTRL.

Secondly, Hackney's links with Stratford are currently
inadequate - the trains are infrequent, short and overcrowded.

Oh come on. Are you seriously suggesting that the solution to that is to
build a tube line which duplicates an existing overground line? The cheapest
way to solve that problem is to lengthen the platforms and/or increase
frequency. Alternatively, build a line on a nearby unserved route - that
will significantly shorten journey times on that corridor, while demand on
this one will be reduced but not decimated.

The problem with using the NLL route between Highbury
and Stratford is that it would be difficult to replicate it in
a tunnel thanks to the CTRL, and sharing tracks with
the NLL itself would be a performance liability

I have been told (not by a reliable source) that most or all of the
alignment is wide enough for 4 tracks. The only reason the CTRL was
underground was the extreme noise of fast trains.

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes