Crossrail 2 - Some Detective Work...
 

This is just rumour / speculation, however I have a hunch about what the
(current) route for Crossrail 2 is planned to be.

CLUES TO THE ROUTE ARE TO BE FOUND ALL OVER THE INTERNET.

This is what I have come up with. I just thought I would share it with
everyone.

· The central tunnel would run from just west of Clapham Junction to
Hackney Wick and Walthamstow (before St James’ Street Station).

· Central London stops would be at: Clapham Junction, Battersea Park,
Chelsea Bridge (stop somewhere south of Sloane Square, near Chelsea
Bridge Road), Victoria, Piccadilly Circus, Tottenham Court Road, King’s
Cross St Pancras, Dalston Junction and Hackney Central. All would be
sub surface stations.

· After Hackney Central, one branch would continue to a underground
Clapton station, and then rise to the surface, before serving all stops
on the Chingford Branch: St James’ Street, Walthamstow Central, Wood
Street, Highams Park and Chingford.

· The other branch would surface near Stratford before serving it, and
then running to Leyton and Leytonstone. The line would then take over
the Epping branch (but not the Woodford – Hainult section: this would
remain with the Central Line).

· After leaving sub surface platforms at Clapham Junction, Crossrail 2
would rise to the ground, and then run on a viaduct, serving Wandsworth
Town, before meeting the District Line at East Putney. Crossrail 2
would then stop at all stations to Wimbledon, with the District Line
being cut back to East Putney.

· Crossrail 2 would completely be a tube line, this would be cheaper
(allowing more tunnel and more sub surface stations), the whole route is
segregated, and a stop would be possible at Piccadilly Circus.

· One other part of the Crossrail 2 proposals (REMEMBERING THIS IS JUST
SPECULATION) would be the building of a Central Line station at
Shoreditch High Street. This would give interchange to the East London
Line Extensions, would allow the redevelopment of parts of Bishopsgate,
and crucially, give Chingford branch passengers a decent link to the
City (changing onto ELL at Dalston and again at Shoreditch High St).

· Crossrail Line 1 would free up capacity in the Central Line trains,
allowing East London Line passengers to change to and from the Central.

I have a strong hunch this is the route.


Jeff.


--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

Crossrail 2 - Some Detective Work...
 

On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 01:57:43 +0000 (UTC), "Jeffrey Asante"
wrote:

This is just rumour / speculation, however I have a hunch about what the
(current) route for Crossrail 2 is planned to be.

CLUES TO THE ROUTE ARE TO BE FOUND ALL OVER THE INTERNET.

This is what I have come up with. I just thought I would share it with
everyone.

· The central tunnel would run from just west of Clapham Junction to
Hackney Wick and Walthamstow (before St James’ Street Station).

· Central London stops would be at: Clapham Junction, Battersea Park,
Chelsea Bridge (stop somewhere south of Sloane Square, near Chelsea
Bridge Road), Victoria, Piccadilly Circus, Tottenham Court Road, King’s
Cross St Pancras, Dalston Junction and Hackney Central. All would be
sub surface stations.

· After Hackney Central, one branch would continue to a underground
Clapton station, and then rise to the surface, before serving all stops
on the Chingford Branch: St James’ Street, Walthamstow Central, Wood
Street, Highams Park and Chingford.

All lovely but you need at least 3 additional stations at Forest Road /
Hale End Road, Winchester Road and Chingford Hatch to deliver true
benefits to residents beyond Walthamstow Central if you are to deliver
tube type frequencies with this new service. While I accept journey time
may become a bit longer as a result of new stations it is essential that
new rail services properly serve the areas they run through. It is
irksome that people are crammed onto local bus services when a train
service could provide a better and faster service.

· Crossrail 2 would completely be a tube line, this would be cheaper
(allowing more tunnel and more sub surface stations), the whole route is
segregated, and a stop would be possible at Piccadilly Circus.

· One other part of the Crossrail 2 proposals (REMEMBERING THIS IS JUST
SPECULATION) would be the building of a Central Line station at
Shoreditch High Street. This would give interchange to the East London
Line Extensions, would allow the redevelopment of parts of Bishopsgate,
and crucially, give Chingford branch passengers a decent link to the
City (changing onto ELL at Dalston and again at Shoreditch High St).

Accepting that this is all speculation I doubt very much that anyone
using the Chingford line into Liverpool St will consider two changes at
Dalston and then again within striking distance of Liverpool St to be
remotely "decent". It typically takes 20 mins from Walthamstow to
Liverpool St - your suggested option would take at least half of that in
interchange and waiting time. That is a huge disbenefit in my view.

The proposal also does nothing to deal with the need (IMO) for
restoration of the old curve linking the Chingford Line to the Stratford
- Tottenham Hale line. This is a cheap and easy link to build and would
cut travel times into the Docklands area by a considerable margin from
Waltham Forest. Given the planned location of the Olympic facilities and
the supposed legacy benefits I find it odd that no one has thought to
restore a simple yet effective link.

While it would be lovely to imagine that this line will be built I think
I will die of shock if Crossrail 1 is ever built. While Ken is
undoubtedly in favour I just think the Treasury will never, ever provide
the government money that is needed to plug the funding gap. I'd also
prefer to see Thameslink 2060 actually built and using the expensive and
half redundant infrastructure now being built at Kings Cross.

Oh and a strategy for the proper development of all of London's
transport would also be a good thing.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Crossrail 2 - Some Detective Work...
 

Paul Corfield wrote:
(lots of snip)
Oh and a strategy for the proper development of all of London's
transport would also be a good thing.

Like this?
http://www.london.gov.uk/mayor/strategies/transport/

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - transport projects in London

Crossrail 2 - Some Detective Work...
 

In article , Dave Arquati
writes
Paul Corfield wrote:
(lots of snip)
Oh and a strategy for the proper development of all of London's
transport would also be a good thing.

Like this?
http://www.london.gov.uk/mayor/strategies/transport/

A quick glance suggests that whilst it may be approaching Paul's
objective, the revisions suggest that we are in the normal quasi-
political government cycle of proposal, change, proposal with no
consistency or any actual investment.

Like education, you only see the results of a transport policy after a
significant number of years, the changes made today will not be apparent
for some time and so our elected representatives feel obliged to try
other changes before they find out if their first policy actually
worked!!

--
John Alexander,

Crossrail 2 - Some Detective Work...
 

John wrote:
In article , Dave Arquati
writes

Paul Corfield wrote:
(lots of snip)

Oh and a strategy for the proper development of all of London's
transport would also be a good thing.

Like this?
http://www.london.gov.uk/mayor/strategies/transport/

A quick glance suggests that whilst it may be approaching Paul's
objective, the revisions suggest that we are in the normal quasi-
political government cycle of proposal, change, proposal with no
consistency or any actual investment.

Like education, you only see the results of a transport policy after a
significant number of years, the changes made today will not be apparent
for some time and so our elected representatives feel obliged to try
other changes before they find out if their first policy actually
worked!!

That may be true for nationwide transport policies, but to me it seems
to be progressing much more quickly in London. The congestion charge is
in place, improved bus services are in place, the first phase of the
East London Line project has approval and funding, the DLR extension to
City Airport is under construction and the further extension to Woolwich
is ready to go; the West London Tram, East London Transit and
Greenwich Waterfront Transit are all well-advanced. Crossrail would be
ready to go if central government decided how little money it wants to
contribute.

I'd say money is being poured into London's transport, and some of the
effects have already been felt.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - transport projects in London

Crossrail 2 - Some Detective Work...
 

On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 01:04:03 +0000, Dave Arquati wrote:

John wrote:
In article , Dave Arquati
writes

Paul Corfield wrote:
(lots of snip)

Oh and a strategy for the proper development of all of London's
transport would also be a good thing.

Like this?
http://www.london.gov.uk/mayor/strategies/transport/

Well yes there is that document. I just wonder to what extent it is
actually being implemented.

A quick glance suggests that whilst it may be approaching Paul's
objective, the revisions suggest that we are in the normal quasi-
political government cycle of proposal, change, proposal with no
consistency or any actual investment.

Precisely. There are far too many schemes that to all intents are
finalised but which are going nowhere - Thameslink being the biggest
victim of this inertia.

Like education, you only see the results of a transport policy after a
significant number of years, the changes made today will not be apparent
for some time and so our elected representatives feel obliged to try
other changes before they find out if their first policy actually
worked!!

That may be true for nationwide transport policies, but to me it seems
to be progressing much more quickly in London.

The congestion charge is
in place,

Well yes it is but what purpose does it now serve? It makes very little
money to fund extra public transport investment and in some parts of
town there seem to be as many cars around as before. I think that the
cost has now been absorbed by many businesses and individuals and thus
the deterrent effect will reduce.

improved bus services are in place,

but no more development can be afforded. There are now cuts being made
to a range of services including the night bus network which is contrary
to the strategy. London Buses are also cutting back on vehicle numbers
for future bids thus risking the reliability improvements made to date.
The bus fleet will also now age significantly following the huge and
rapid push to a low floor fleet over the last 3 years. I am afraid that
I consider TfL to be in breach of the Mayor's strategy so far as the bus
network is concerned.

the first phase of the
East London Line project has approval and funding,

And I look forward to it being built. However I am nervous that the
slitting of the project into two phases will mean that Phase 2 never
happens. The government are taking over control of the national rail
network and I just cannot envisage the money being made available for
the Highbury and Clapham Junction phases of this project.

the DLR extension to City Airport is under construction and the further extension to Woolwich
is ready to go;

I accept that DLR seems to be the exception to all transport ills in
London. Don't know how they do it but they have an exceptional record in
providing a decent service and of expanding the network. If I had a
concern it would be how they maintain service reliability as the
original parts of the network begin to age.

the West London Tram, East London Transit and
Greenwich Waterfront Transit are all well-advanced.

For some reason I am somewhat underwhelmed by these schemes. I think the
West London tram will never happen because of public opposition and
escalating costs for tram schemes. I still don't understand the
reasoning for the transit schemes and would prefer that the money set
aside for these schemes were put into development of the bus network
overall.

I note that you have omitted the Cross River Tram which I do think
should go ahead as a matter of urgency - if only to get trams back into
the centre of London from where further expansion can then take place.
It is strategically important that this tram scheme is built and built
soon.

Crossrail would be
ready to go if central government decided how little money it wants to
contribute.

I just wish someone would take the final decision and then we either
bury the scheme or else build it.

I'd say money is being poured into London's transport, and some of the
effects have already been felt.

Yes plenty of money has been spent but I still wonder about the value
for money aspect. I also question the balance between modes and whether
there is a real "vision" for what a public transport journey will be
like in 10 or 20 years time. The strategy seems to be a way of dealing
with a load of problems rather than recognising that there are issues to
be dealt with but that there is still a target to aim for in terms of
passenger convenience, ease of use and reliability / quick journey
times.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

West London Tram (was Crossrail 2 ).
 

In article , Dave Arquati
wrote:
[snip]
the first phase of the East London Line project has approval and funding,
the DLR extension to City Airport is under construction and the further
extension to Woolwich is ready to go; the West London Tram, East London
Transit and Greenwich Waterfront Transit are all well-advanced. Crossrail
would be ready to go if central government decided how little money it
wants to contribute.

I'd say money is being poured into London's transport, and some of the
effects have already been felt.


Aren't you astounded at the COST of the West London Tram? I don't see how you
can spend so much money!

Michael Bell
--

Crossrail 2 - Some Detective Work...
 

Paul Corfield wrote:
On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 01:04:03 +0000, Dave Arquati wrote:

John wrote:

In article , Dave Arquati
writes

Paul Corfield wrote:
(lots of snip)

Oh and a strategy for the proper development of all of London's
transport would also be a good thing.

Like this?
http://www.london.gov.uk/mayor/strategies/transport/

Well yes there is that document. I just wonder to what extent it is
actually being implemented.

A quick glance suggests that whilst it may be approaching Paul's
objective, the revisions suggest that we are in the normal quasi-
political government cycle of proposal, change, proposal with no
consistency or any actual investment.

Precisely. There are far too many schemes that to all intents are
finalised but which are going nowhere - Thameslink being the biggest
victim of this inertia.

Thameslink being covered by the SRA which has one foot in the grave.
With any luck, the Mayor's proposed new rail powers will enable progress
to be made on Thameslink, although I can see a clash happening between
TfL and the DfT, as TfL would prefer a more local, metro-like scheme
rather than the regional scheme currently on the table.

Like education, you only see the results of a transport policy after a
significant number of years, the changes made today will not be apparent
for some time and so our elected representatives feel obliged to try
other changes before they find out if their first policy actually
worked!!

That may be true for nationwide transport policies, but to me it seems
to be progressing much more quickly in London.
The congestion charge is
in place,

Well yes it is but what purpose does it now serve? It makes very little
money to fund extra public transport investment and in some parts of
town there seem to be as many cars around as before. I think that the
cost has now been absorbed by many businesses and individuals and thus
the deterrent effect will reduce.

It speeds up bus services (except along Oxford Street...); I personally
haven't noticed a large decrease in its efficiency but it seems logical
that traffic will increase without the charge being raised - hence the
proposal to increase the charge to £8 to secure the traffic reductions
for the next few years.

improved bus services are in place,

but no more development can be afforded. There are now cuts being made
to a range of services including the night bus network which is contrary
to the strategy. London Buses are also cutting back on vehicle numbers
for future bids thus risking the reliability improvements made to date.
The bus fleet will also now age significantly following the huge and
rapid push to a low floor fleet over the last 3 years. I am afraid that
I consider TfL to be in breach of the Mayor's strategy so far as the bus
network is concerned.

The problem TfL have had is that they've managed to increase bus
services in the central area but now lack the funds to do the same in
the suburbs. I think they were expecting more money from central
government than they actually received.

What cuts are being made?

the first phase of the
East London Line project has approval and funding,

And I look forward to it being built. However I am nervous that the
slitting of the project into two phases will mean that Phase 2 never
happens. The government are taking over control of the national rail
network and I just cannot envisage the money being made available for
the Highbury and Clapham Junction phases of this project.

The phasing of the project is necessary for *any* of it to get built.
Phase 1 comes under the current TfL spending plan; the Mayor is very
keen to see Phase 2 get built and plans to include it in the next TfL
spending plan in four or five years' time. It's a slower method of
delivery but it avoids the financial problems plaguing the regional tram
systems like Manchester and Leeds, who have been slapped down after
trying to get too much money at once.

The DfT may be taking over direction of the rail network but TfL will be
given ever-increasing powers over the local London network (especially
Silverlink) and the ELLP is being progressed entirely by TfL's Rail
division now rather than the government, so funding is down to them;
unfortunately that's why we now have the fare increases, but at least
something is getting underway.

the DLR extension to City Airport is under construction and the further extension to Woolwich
is ready to go;

I accept that DLR seems to be the exception to all transport ills in
London. Don't know how they do it but they have an exceptional record in
providing a decent service and of expanding the network. If I had a
concern it would be how they maintain service reliability as the
original parts of the network begin to age.

It must be the combination of automated operation and excellent
management. They seem to carry out maintenance fairly regularly during
weekend closures, and I'm sure the ride quality between Tower Gateway
and Westferry has improved in the last few months since the previous
time I used the DLR (the most recent time was last week). The capacity
enhancement project should encompass some general renewals of the older
infrastructure.

the West London Tram, East London Transit and
Greenwich Waterfront Transit are all well-advanced.

For some reason I am somewhat underwhelmed by these schemes. I think the
West London tram will never happen because of public opposition and
escalating costs for tram schemes. I still don't understand the
reasoning for the transit schemes and would prefer that the money set
aside for these schemes were put into development of the bus network
overall.

It's the classic argument about the attractiveness of trams vs. buses
which we've done many times on here. The transit schemes will be an
interesting way of finalising that argument as they will provide
tram-like levels of service and infrastructure provision, whilst still
using conventional bendybuses - we can see whether buses themselves are
a turnoff, or whether the permanent way of the tram is the deciding feature.

I note that you have omitted the Cross River Tram which I do think
should go ahead as a matter of urgency - if only to get trams back into
the centre of London from where further expansion can then take place.
It is strategically important that this tram scheme is built and built
soon.

I also believe that CRT is vital, particularly at King's Cross to act as
a distributor for the new CTRL and TL2K services, and at the Elephant to
help the regeneration plans there progress. I think it's slightly lower
down the agenda because having expanded bus provision in central London,
the Mayor wants to improve public transport quality in the suburbs to
help stem some of the growth in car use there. That fits in with the
Transport Strategy (which I believe includes reducing traffic growth in
central London from 5% to zero, and in outer London from 5% to 3%).

Crossrail would be
ready to go if central government decided how little money it wants to
contribute.

I just wish someone would take the final decision and then we either
bury the scheme or else build it.

The scheme will never be buried; there are a lot of extremely interested
parties very keen to see it constructed, and they won't stop until they
get something. It's not just TfL; the Corporation of London and Canary
Wharf Group are pushing very heavily for it. Hopefully a critical point
has now been reached in both development of the scheme and support, with
a lot of political goodwill at stake if it now gets rejected.

I'd say money is being poured into London's transport, and some of the
effects have already been felt.

Yes plenty of money has been spent but I still wonder about the value
for money aspect. I also question the balance between modes and whether
there is a real "vision" for what a public transport journey will be
like in 10 or 20 years time. The strategy seems to be a way of dealing
with a load of problems rather than recognising that there are issues to
be dealt with but that there is still a target to aim for in terms of
passenger convenience, ease of use and reliability / quick journey
times.

Why do you question the balance between modes?
I think dealing with problems is the essence of the way plans for
London's transport network must be taken forward; you can't achieve the
targets you mention without addressing particular issues. Specifically
target-led approaches have merits but can be very complicated and can
lead to meaningless number manipulation. London Underground is now
following such an approach; look at the complexity of the PPP documents.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - transport projects in London

Crossrail 2 - Some Detective Work...
 

In article , Dave Arquati
writes
snip

The problem TfL have had is that they've managed to increase bus
services in the central area but now lack the funds to do the same in
the suburbs. I think they were expecting more money from central
government than they actually received.

What cuts are being made?

the first phase of the
East London Line project has approval and funding,

And I look forward to it being built. However I am nervous that the
slitting of the project into two phases will mean that Phase 2 never
happens. The government are taking over control of the national rail
network and I just cannot envisage the money being made available for
the Highbury and Clapham Junction phases of this project.

Living just outside Ken's world, the first bit of my season ticket costs
a lot more than the rest of it (per mile). If we are all serious about
increasing use of public transport then the current subsidy system needs
to have a gradual edge rather than the current sharp cut-off. Apart from
the parking the car would be cheaper...
--
John Alexander,

Crossrail 2 - Some Detective Work...
 

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...

London Buses are also cutting back on
vehicle numbers for future bids thus
risking the reliability improvements made to date.

Is that not the correct response to shortened journey times and improved
reliability since the congestion charge was introduced?

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes