In message , at 17:55:43 on Mon, 3
Jan 2005, Jon Crowcroft remarked:

London University has 3 taught terms of 12 weeks with a reading week, and
5 day terms - Cambridge taught term is 8 weeks of 5.5 days max - in practice
UCL and Imperial students attend more lectures in sciences (at least where I
know) though whether this constites working "harder" I couldn't possibly
comment....

In my time the average Cambridge science/maths/engineering student
worked a 6-6.5 day week, while friends at London used to regularly skip
Friday afternoons and Monday mornings to facilitate weekends away (and
clearly had no intention of ever working Sat/Sun).

p.s. If the current cruiser train time is 45 mins,
and we were discussing a possible time of 35 mins,
and the distance is 55 miles, I am not quite
sure where speeds of 125mph come up

Currently the ECML is a high speed line with the KX-Hitchin part taking
approx 21 minutes (that's in an IC225, I'm not sure the WAGNs could keep
up with that, it's an average of 90mph).

This leaves 25 miles on the Cambridge branch. To meet a 45 minute
schedule that requires an average speed of just over 60mph, which is
what they just about manage to achieve on today's track.

To meet a 35 minute time, they'd need to do the 25 miles in 14 minutes,
which is an average of 107mph !

- 100mph
tilting trains would work on most the route
provided track and points are made up to a higher
quality surely?

Yes, but a *very* big "provided" !!!

--
Roland Perry

In article , Huge
wrote:
"Jonn Elledge" writes:

"David Fairthorne" wrote in message
...

It seems to be widely accepted that public transport must be subsidised,
but
subsidies modify peoples' behaviour, and in this example, and many others,
the consequences are not altogether desirable.


Perhaps unsurprisingly, I disagree with this completely.

Like public education and the military, public transport is an important
form of social overhead capital. Many people may not benefit from the
subsidies directly. But if rail travel was priced at cost, then commuting
would for many become impossible.

Thameslink make a profit. Ergo your asserion is incorrect.

If that is so, then WHY is it so?

Has it got much better management. That can be copied!

Has it got unique geographical advantages? That cannot be copied!


Michael Bell

--

On 3 Jan 2005 17:55:43 GMT, (Jon Crowcroft) wrote:

1/ students are not gonna spend 3000-4000 commuting, so
we're talking (well i was talking) about staff (teaching officers and related

You might be surprised. OK, I only did it for about 3 months, but the
annual cost of my season ticket was probably about 1.5-2 grand (term
time only) had I done the whole thing. This was from Ormskirk,
Lancashire to Manchester, and approximately a 1.5 hour journey with 2
main legs (either changing at Liverpool, the Burscoughs or Preston).

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

In article , Jon Crowcroft
writes
I thouht the points were a big limiting factor between
Hitchin and Cambridge and at Hitchin too...but I am not
a Jarvis employee of course:-)

For a non-stop class 365 EMU, the bottlenecks are as follows:

King's Cross approaches start at 15mph and ramp up to 100mph by, IIRC,
Finsbury Park (my sources for this are a bit out of date).
Limit is then never below 100mph to Hitchin.

Hitchin junction is 40mph for 34c (just under 700m) northbound, 26c
(just over 500m) southbound. Southbound trains are also limited to 75mph
through Hitchin and for about 600m south, then IIRC 70mph over the
connection to the fast line.

Limit is then 80mph to Royston (but this may be out of date).
North of Royston my sources predate the major works of a few years ago,
but show limits varying between 50 and 90mph; the major restrictions are
at the north end of Royston and at Shepreth.

Shepreth Branch Junction (on to the Liverpool Street line) is 30mph.
Then 90mph to Long Road, then 80mph northbound, 90mph southbound, to
Hills Road, then 35mph into the station.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
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In article , Roland
Perry writes
Currently the ECML is a high speed line with the KX-Hitchin part taking
approx 21 minutes (that's in an IC225, I'm not sure the WAGNs could
keep up with that, it's an average of 90mph).

This leaves 25 miles on the Cambridge branch. To meet a 45 minute
schedule that requires an average speed of just over 60mph, which is
what they just about manage to achieve on today's track.

The bit of the working timetable for Cruisers that I've been able to
find gives:

KX depart XX15
Finsbury Park pass XX18.5
Alexandra Palace pass XX20 0.5 pathing allowance
Potters Bar pass XX25.5
WGC pass XX30
Woolmer Green pass XX32
Stevenage pass XX34
Hitchin pass XX37
Letchworth pass XX40
Royston pass XX47 2 engineering allowance

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

In article , Clive D. W. Feather
writes
In article , Roland
Perry writes
Currently the ECML is a high speed line with the KX-Hitchin part
taking approx 21 minutes (that's in an IC225, I'm not sure the WAGNs
could keep up with that, it's an average of 90mph).

This leaves 25 miles on the Cambridge branch. To meet a 45 minute
schedule that requires an average speed of just over 60mph, which is
what they just about manage to achieve on today's track.

The bit of the working timetable for Cruisers that I've been able to
find gives:

KX depart XX15
Finsbury Park pass XX18.5
Alexandra Palace pass XX20 0.5 pathing allowance
Potters Bar pass XX25.5
WGC pass XX30
Woolmer Green pass XX32
Stevenage pass XX34
Hitchin pass XX37

22 minutes. I had allowed 21. Nice to be so close to the actual answer
using only classic engineering estimating skills!

Letchworth pass XX40
Royston pass XX47 2 engineering allowance

(And it means one minute less for Hitchin to Cambridge, 25 miles to do
in 13 minutes for a 35 minute journey - 115 mph average. Not very
realistic...)
--
"now, the thing you type on and the window you stare out of are the same thing"

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
.uk...
In message , at 17:55:43 on Mon, 3
Jan 2005, Jon Crowcroft remarked:

London University has 3 taught terms of 12 weeks with a reading week, and
5 day terms - Cambridge taught term is 8 weeks of 5.5 days max - in
practice
UCL and Imperial students attend more lectures in sciences (at least
where I
know) though whether this constites working "harder" I couldn't possibly
comment....

In my time the average Cambridge science/maths/engineering student
worked a 6-6.5 day week, while friends at London used to regularly skip
Friday afternoons and Monday mornings to facilitate weekends away (and
clearly had no intention of ever working Sat/Sun).

The word "taught" is superfluous, the correct expression being "Full Term".
Back in my day in Oxford, and I doubt that Cambridge was different, there
were lectures at 9 and 10 on most days Monday-Saturday, but attendance was
not compulsory (although desirable, as questions in finals were mostly based
on the lecture course over three years. A certain amount of attendance at
the laboratories was also required, but could usually be fitted in between
11 and 1 before lunch. Afternoons would often be devoted to sport, games or
the pleasures of punting, and in some cases to flying with the Air Squadron.
One hour per week for a tutorial, and some hours (often after midnight) on
doing the reading and essay-writing for the next tutorial. Organic
preparations tended to require more than a day, and were regarded as only
for the dedicated.

In theory one was required to get permission to reside and to travel more
than 3 miles from Carfax, and to be absent overnight. One was also required
to come up a few days early for college Collections and to delay one's
departure until after an interview with the tutors. For the final year in
Chemistry, one was expected to spend at least 10 weeks in Oxford for each
term, essentially working 9 to 5 Monday to Friday and possibly Saturday
morning as well. Depending on the subject being studied, time could be much
longer, especially if working towards a deadline for the thesis submission.
--
Terry Harper, Web Co-ordinator, The Omnibus Society
75th Anniversary 2004, see http://www.omnibussoc.org/75th.htm
E-mail:
URL: http://www.terry.harper.btinternet.co.uk/

Huge wrote:
"Jonn Elledge" writes:

"David Fairthorne" wrote in message
...

It seems to be widely accepted that public transport must be
subsidised,
but
subsidies modify peoples' behaviour, and in this example, and many
others,
the consequences are not altogether desirable.


Perhaps unsurprisingly, I disagree with this completely.

Like public education and the military, public transport is an
important
form of social overhead capital. Many people may not benefit from
the
subsidies directly. But if rail travel was priced at cost, then
commuting
would for many become impossible.

Thameslink make a profit. Ergo your asserion is incorrect.


Well, no, actually. I wasn't saying that no railway can ever be
profitable - I was saying that not all railways are profitable, but the
fact that a railway isn't profitable does not mean it doesn't add
value. Thameslink is a notoriously busy line - there are many emptier
lines that may not be profitable, but the removal of which could have
negative economic and social consequences.

Jonn

In article , Terry Harper
writes
The word "taught" is superfluous, the correct expression being "Full Term".

Yes, but there's been a bit of an effort to avoid Oxbridge slang, I
think. Cambridge also had the 8-week lecture term plus approx half a
week either side for "housekeeping".

Back in my day in Oxford, and I doubt that Cambridge was different, there
were lectures at 9 and 10 on most days Monday-Saturday, but attendance was
not compulsory

Indeed, not compulsory, but in the later years with some specialist
lectures being given to a handful of familiar students they were
effectively compulsory.

(although desirable, as questions in finals were mostly based
on the lecture course over three years. A certain amount of attendance at
the laboratories was also required, but could usually be fitted in between
11 and 1 before lunch. Afternoons would often be devoted to sport, games or
the pleasures of punting

My experience of Engineering at Cambridge was lectures 9-1 Mon-Fri and
9-12 Saturday; plus two or three afternoons of labs, and at least one
5pm lecture. The labs were just collecting experimental results, too;
you could easily spend another two hours writing up and crunching the
numbers - this being before electronic calculators, let alone PCs.
--
"now, the thing you type on and the window you stare out of are the same thing"

In article , Clive D. W. Feather
writes
The bit of the working timetable for Cruisers that I've been able to
find gives:

KX depart XX15
[...]
Royston pass XX47 2 engineering allowance

and Cambridge at XX61 (IYSWIM) of course.

Feeding that into a spreadsheet, I get the following:

A B C D E
King's Cross
Finsbury Park 43 46 40 3.5 1.5
Alexandra Palace 99 118 84 1.5 1.5
Potters Bar 84 88 81 5.5 4.5
Welwyn Garden City 101 107 96 4.5 4.5
Woolmer Green 106 121 94 2 2
Stevenage 111 127 99 2 1.5
Hitchin 87 95 81 3 2.5
Letchworth 54 59 50 3 2
Royston 88 91 85 7 6
Cambridge 56 57 55 14 8

A = average booked speed between locations
B = booked speed using a time 0.25 minutes less
C = booked speed using a time 0.25 minutes more
D = booked time between locations
E = time between locations required for 100mph

B and C are to allow for the fact that booked timings are only given to
half minutes.

The 2 minutes difference between D and E out of King's Cross is to allow
for the train to accelerate, so we should expect the same at Cambridge.
That leaves 4 minutes lost between Royston and Cambridge in 13 miles.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
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