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Oyster prepay fare capping
Ah yes, that topic that is dredged up again and again (frequently by me!).
We had some discussions on whether the fare caps would be the same price as Travelcards, given that Oyster Prepay is not yet valid on most National Rail services. The latest set of Mayor's Q&As (15 Dec) on the GLA site has an answer to that very question. http://mqt.london.gov.uk//public/question.do?id=9496 "Oyster Pre Pay daily caps will be set at Travelcard prices with one exception. The cap for zone 1-6 travel after 9:30 am and all day on weekends and holidays will be £5.70 - 30p less than the corresponding Travelcard price. Although Oyster Pre Pay is not valid on National Rail, except for inter-available routes, 74% of customers buying one-day Travelcards from TfL use only TfL services. Adhering to Travelcard prices is preferable to adding one more set of price points to an already too complicated fare structure.I hope that Train operating companies will adopt Oyster smart card ticketing as soon as possible." -- Dave Arquati Imperial College, SW7 www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London |
Oyster prepay fare capping
If every journey on a particular day is by bus, or Tramlink, it would
not seem unreasonable to cap at the price of a bus pass, but I have not heard of any intention to do this. |
Oyster prepay fare capping
As 2005 moves to 06, 07 and on and on Fare capping still hasn't arrived!
-- Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG |
Oyster prepay fare capping
On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 12:15:17 +0000, Abc Xyz wrote:
As 2005 moves to 06, 07 and on and on Fare capping still hasn't arrived! Well as simple things like 1-day travel cards and reimbursing pre-pay fares when a travelcard is purchased are still beyond them - how can you expect prepay? |
Oyster prepay fare capping
Dave Arquati wrote:
Ah yes, that topic that is dredged up again and again (frequently by me!). We had some discussions on whether the fare caps would be the same price as Travelcards, given that Oyster Prepay is not yet valid on most National Rail services. The latest set of Mayor's Q&As (15 Dec) on the GLA site has an answer to that very question. http://mqt.london.gov.uk//public/question.do?id=9496 "Oyster Pre Pay daily caps will be set at Travelcard prices with one exception. The cap for zone 1-6 travel after 9:30 am and all day on weekends and holidays will be £5.70 - 30p less than the corresponding Travelcard price. In the meantime, I see no reason why fare capping for one day bus passes can't be introduced at least as temporary measure until the mess is sorted out with Travelcards. Clocking up a series of bus journeys at 80p (£1.00 for am peak after late February) until a £3.00 ceiling limit is reached is hardly rocket science..... Although Oyster Pre Pay is not valid on National Rail, except for inter-available routes, 74% of customers buying one-day Travelcards from TfL use only TfL services. Adhering to Travelcard prices is preferable to adding one more set of price points to an already too complicated fare structure.I hope that Train operating companies will adopt Oyster smart card ticketing as soon as possible." Better still for the TOCs to adopt a zone to zone fare structure rather than point to point bringing it in line with LUL. -- Phil Richards London, UK Home Page: http://www.philrichards1.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk |
Oyster prepay fare capping
--- Phil Richards said... Better still for the TOCs to adopt a zone to zone fare structure rather than point to point bringing it in line with LUL. And even better still for LUL to adopt point-to-point instead of all that zone nonsense. |
Oyster prepay fare capping
Better still for the TOCs to adopt a zone to zone fare structure rather
than point to point bringing it in line with LUL. Won't that alienate the people who pay less for their tickets under a point to point system who stand to use if zones are imposed? Not that the TOCs care about the way people feel ... D |
Oyster prepay fare capping
On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 19:52:57 -0000, "Dave Plumb"
wrote: Won't that alienate the people who pay less for their tickets under a point to point system who stand to use if zones are imposed? Some will lose and some will gain. In my mind, like the German model, it makes perfect sense for a local transport authority to have responsibility for setting the fares[1] on all local public transport services, whatever the type, so I am all for it. [1] *All* fares, with the transport companies not being permitted to offer alternatives. Most PTEs offer their own seasons, as of course do TfL, but users of single fares don't benefit from this. Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK When replying please use neil at the above domain 'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read. |
Oyster prepay fare capping
"Neil Williams" wrote:
Some will lose and some will gain. In my mind, like the German model, it makes perfect sense for a local transport authority to have responsibility for setting the fares[1] on all local public transport services, whatever the type, so I am all for it. I guess it's fair if you'd use the extra validity you might gain. I have a point to point into zone 2 and then a 2 zone Oyster, which suits my travel pattern and gives me travel where I use it, £370 a year less than the equivalent "all zones" card for my station (from outside the zones). If they zone out as far as planned I will pay more and get travel to areas I don't travel to. The TfL plan is good, if it irons out anomolies like zone 3 - london terminals ranging from £1.70-£3.70 (http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/downloads/...uthority-propo sal.pdf) and the roll out of Oyster and prepay to NR - but I think the current zones are big enough, to introduce more won't help anyone. Dave |
Oyster prepay fare capping
"steve" wrote in message ... On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 12:15:17 +0000, Abc Xyz wrote: As 2005 moves to 06, 07 and on and on Fare capping still hasn't arrived! Well as simple things like 1-day travel cards and reimbursing pre-pay fares when a travelcard is purchased are still beyond them - how can you expect prepay? 8 days into 2005 it's apparently nearly 2006, glad I brought those Xmas cards cheap in the sales! Prepay does work (99.9% of the time anyway), it's just the capping that needs further testing |
Oyster prepay fare capping
Solar Penguin wrote:
Better still for the TOCs to adopt a zone to zone fare structure rather than point to point bringing it in line with LUL. And even better still for LUL to adopt point-to-point instead of all that zone nonsense. Why not be silly enough to suggest that London Buses go back to a system of fare tables for each route? Remember zonal fares in London have been in force for over 20 years now, the TOCs are the ones dragging their feet in not fully adapting to a proper integrated fare structure which you'll find commonplace in many European cities. -- Phil Richards London, UK Home Page: http://www.philrichards1.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk |
Oyster prepay fare capping
Robin Mayes wrote:
Prepay does work (99.9% of the time anyway), it's just the capping that needs further testing You're trying to make out that the issue is of little relevance. When the whole thing Oystercard thing announced, one of the ideas behind pre-pay was the convenience of capping. Over a year later the product still hasn't been delivered with no indication of when it will be with us. -- Phil Richards London, UK Home Page: http://www.philrichards1.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk |
Oyster prepay fare capping
steve wrote:
Well as simple things like 1-day travel cards and reimbursing pre-pay fares when a travelcard is purchased are still beyond them - how can you expect prepay? Or better still if you clock up in one day more on your pre-pay than the cost the Travelcard you could have bought, TfL have to refund you back the difference! -- Phil Richards London, UK Home Page: http://www.philrichards1.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk |
Oyster prepay fare capping
--- Phil Richards said... Solar Penguin wrote: And even better still for LUL to adopt point-to-point instead of all that zone nonsense. Why not be silly enough to suggest that London Buses go back to a system of fare tables for each route? What's silly about that? In the present system, even if you just take a *local* bus ride, just a couple of stops or so, you have to pay the same as a journey the *whole length* of the bus route! Think how much money you could save if you only paid for the short journey you actually travel, instead of all those miles you don't! Remember zonal fares in London have been in force for over 20 years now And that's what scientists call "the Concorde fallacy", i.e. "We've been trying, without any success, to make this thing work for so many years now, that it's pointless to give up now, even though when we finally do get something that works, it won't be worth all the effort we've put into it!" Face it, twenty years is *too* long. It's definitely time to get rid of the zones by now. Long overdue in fact. the TOCs are the ones dragging their feet in not fully adapting to a proper integrated fare structure which you'll find commonplace in many European cities. We should have a proper integrated fare structure, true. But it should be based on point-to-point fares, not zones. Face facts, the zones are just a con to make us pay for distances we haven't travelled. For example, you get on an East London Line train at New Cross to travel across the river to Wapping. But you can't buy a ticket to Wapping. Instead, you have to buy a Zone Two ticket that's valid beyond Wapping, all the way to Bromley-by-Bow! And no chance of getting a refund on the unused portion of your ticket. Another example, you have a choice of fast Metropolitan Line trains or slow Jubilee Line trains when travelling from Wembley Park to Baker Street. Common sense says that the faster trains should be more expensive. That way, any customers who want to save money can use the cheaper, slower trains. But because of the stupid zonal system, we all end up paying to travel on the Metropolitan trains, with no option for a cheaper ticket. Yes, the zones work for maximising LUL's profit, but are crap at giving good value to customers. No truly fair fares can ever come out of it. (Admittedly, the NR TOCs aren't always fair in practice either, but at least a fair point-to-point system could be made. That's impossible with a zonal system, and always will be.) |
Oyster prepay fare capping
On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 10:16:48 -0000, "Solar Penguin"
wrote: What's silly about that? In the present system, even if you just take a *local* bus ride, just a couple of stops or so, you have to pay the same as a journey the *whole length* of the bus route! Think how much money you could save if you only paid for the short journey you actually travel, instead of all those miles you don't! I'd agree with that, but I think a more sensible arrangement (less complex, and easier to understand, while fairer) would be to have a few levels of fares defined either in terms of the Zones or in the way some European systems do - by having a "short journey" ticket for journeys involving no changes and up to a set number of stops in addition to the full price ticket. Face it, twenty years is *too* long. It's definitely time to get rid of the zones by now. Long overdue in fact. I disagree, and most European transport operations would also do so. We should have a proper integrated fare structure, true. But it should be based on point-to-point fares, not zones. Face facts, the zones are just a con to make us pay for distances we haven't travelled. snip Do you know how the point-to-point fares system on, say, National Rail works? The answer is that it is based on a system of "key stations" for longer-distance fares. Thus, a local station will have fares to destinations within a limited radius of itself. It will then have key stations from which it gains its longer-distance fares, which may themselves have key stations from which they gain even longer-distance fares. Often, there is no add-on fare for the additional distance between the origin and the key station, or no discount for the distance not travelled to the key station. It would be a nightmare to manage a full set of separate fares to and from every station on the National Rail system without doing this unless we went to a kilometric system. There are arguments for this, of course, but it too has its disadvantages. Fare stages on buses have disadvantages as well - let's say there are two bus routes from a city to a given estate or village, but one takes a bit longer than another by going via a number of other estates. The shorter journey is cheaper because there are fewer fare stages passed. Why should the passenger be penalised for taking the longer route? All most passengers want to do is travel from A to B as quickly as feasible at their given departure/arrival time. The product being sold is movement from A to B, not the actual bus ride, and traditional fare stages are often incompatible with that. Another example, you have a choice of fast Metropolitan Line trains or slow Jubilee Line trains when travelling from Wembley Park to Baker Street. Common sense says that the faster trains should be more expensive. Why? In my mind, an integrated city transport system should involve modes feeding modes with a single fare structure. The fare for a given journey should be for the optimum journey, which in the case above is the faster service. On a journey originating off LUL, that may involve a combination of train, bus, tram and Tube. "Encouraging" people to travel on slower services is only sensible where the fast service is much more overcrowded than the slower one, and it works both ways. Indeed, Virgin Trains used to have a cheaper specific fare from Macclesfield to Manchester (they may still do) to fill empty seats. This made it *cheaper* than the local service. Indeed, I'd simplify it further to one fare set for all modes. A single ticket (be it zonal or based on short/normal journey length) would be valid by all modes for as many changes as required to complete the single journey. To protect against fraud it could have a time limit (say you must be on the last mode within 2 hours). Separate bus and Tube fares only make sense in the context of wanting to attract people off a crowded Tube, and even then (there is some justification there) I find it ridiculous that one is effectively penalised (unless using a one day bus pass or ODTC) for using connections on buses or using a bus and a Tube. This is particularly pertinent if there is no direct bus service between the start and end of a given journey, because the passenger is being penalised because TfL won't provide a direct bus, not for any fault of their own. Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK When replying please use neil at the above domain 'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read. |
Oyster prepay fare capping
Solar Penguin wrote to uk.transport.london on Sun, 9 Jan 2005:
What's silly about that? In the present system, even if you just take a *local* bus ride, just a couple of stops or so, you have to pay the same as a journey the *whole length* of the bus route! Think how much money you could save if you only paid for the short journey you actually travel, instead of all those miles you don't! Which has been the case in many European cities for a great number of years now. -- "Mrs Redboots" http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/ Website updated 2 January 2005 |
Oyster prepay fare capping
On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 10:16:48 -0000, "Solar Penguin"
wrote: What's silly about that? In the present system, even if you just take a *local* bus ride, just a couple of stops or so, you have to pay the same as a journey the *whole length* of the bus route! Think how much money you could save if you only paid for the short journey you actually travel, instead of all those miles you don't! Fraud was a significant problem under this system. In particular, over-riding - passenger paying for £1.20 journey but travelling beyond the end of their ticket. Rob. -- rob at robertwoolley dot co dot uk |
Oyster prepay fare capping
Neil Williams wrote:
On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 10:16:48 -0000, "Solar Penguin" wrote: What's silly about that? In the present system, even if you just take a *local* bus ride, just a couple of stops or so, you have to pay the same as a journey the *whole length* of the bus route! Think how much money you could save if you only paid for the short journey you actually travel, instead of all those miles you don't! I'd agree with that, but I think a more sensible arrangement (less complex, and easier to understand, while fairer) would be to have a few levels of fares defined either in terms of the Zones or in the way some European systems do - by having a "short journey" ticket for journeys involving no changes and up to a set number of stops in addition to the full price ticket. Face it, twenty years is *too* long. It's definitely time to get rid of the zones by now. Long overdue in fact. I disagree, and most European transport operations would also do so. We should have a proper integrated fare structure, true. But it should be based on point-to-point fares, not zones. Face facts, the zones are just a con to make us pay for distances we haven't travelled. snip Do you know how the point-to-point fares system on, say, National Rail works? The answer is that it is based on a system of "key stations" for longer-distance fares. Thus, a local station will have fares to destinations within a limited radius of itself. It will then have key stations from which it gains its longer-distance fares, which may themselves have key stations from which they gain even longer-distance fares. Often, there is no add-on fare for the additional distance between the origin and the key station, or no discount for the distance not travelled to the key station. It would be a nightmare to manage a full set of separate fares to and from every station on the National Rail system without doing this unless we went to a kilometric system. There are arguments for this, of course, but it too has its disadvantages. Fare stages on buses have disadvantages as well - let's say there are two bus routes from a city to a given estate or village, but one takes a bit longer than another by going via a number of other estates. The shorter journey is cheaper because there are fewer fare stages passed. Why should the passenger be penalised for taking the longer route? All most passengers want to do is travel from A to B as quickly as feasible at their given departure/arrival time. The product being sold is movement from A to B, not the actual bus ride, and traditional fare stages are often incompatible with that. Another example, you have a choice of fast Metropolitan Line trains or slow Jubilee Line trains when travelling from Wembley Park to Baker Street. Common sense says that the faster trains should be more expensive. Why? In my mind, an integrated city transport system should involve modes feeding modes with a single fare structure. The fare for a given journey should be for the optimum journey, which in the case above is the faster service. On a journey originating off LUL, that may involve a combination of train, bus, tram and Tube. "Encouraging" people to travel on slower services is only sensible where the fast service is much more overcrowded than the slower one, and it works both ways. Indeed, Virgin Trains used to have a cheaper specific fare from Macclesfield to Manchester (they may still do) to fill empty seats. This made it *cheaper* than the local service. Indeed, I'd simplify it further to one fare set for all modes. A single ticket (be it zonal or based on short/normal journey length) would be valid by all modes for as many changes as required to complete the single journey. To protect against fraud it could have a time limit (say you must be on the last mode within 2 hours). Separate bus and Tube fares only make sense in the context of wanting to attract people off a crowded Tube, and even then (there is some justification there) I find it ridiculous that one is effectively penalised (unless using a one day bus pass or ODTC) for using connections on buses or using a bus and a Tube. This is particularly pertinent if there is no direct bus service between the start and end of a given journey, because the passenger is being penalised because TfL won't provide a direct bus, not for any fault of their own. I believe TfL are planning a reduced fare for a combined bus + Tube journey using prepay, but this could be a while off as they wait for each new Oyster product to "embed" itself (initial prepay, then bus prepay, then peak bus fares, and then probably capping). A discounted "through" bus fare would be excellent but could be open to abuse - if it were based on a reasonable time allowance (say, 45 mins between touching in on the first bus and the second) then you could make a short bus journey, get off and do something, and get back on the return bus. -- Dave Arquati Imperial College, SW7 www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London |
Oyster prepay fare capping
On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 00:25:13 +0000, Dave Arquati
wrote: A discounted "through" bus fare would be excellent but could be open to abuse - if it were based on a reasonable time allowance (say, 45 mins between touching in on the first bus and the second) then you could make a short bus journey, get off and do something, and get back on the return bus. I wonder does the Oyster store enough information about a bus journey to disallow "changing" onto the same route as you describe? Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK When replying please use neil at the above domain 'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read. |
Oyster prepay fare capping
A discounted "through" bus fare would be excellent but could be open to
abuse - if it were based on a reasonable time allowance (say, 45 mins between touching in on the first bus and the second) then you could make a short bus journey, get off and do something, and get back on the return bus. Some while back there was some discussion about capping on the Yahoo! Tramlink group. At the moment the requirement (*) for passengers to touch-in before every leg of a tram journey makes Pre-Pay more expensive than paper tickets for those journeys requiring a change of tram. When capping comes along this anomaly is supposed to be corrected. We couldn't figure out anyway this could be done unless time allowances are used in the way you describe for a possible "through" bus fare in which case the 'abuse' you describe would inevitably be possible. However I don't think we need to consider it an 'abuse' at all. It sounds like a very attractive improvement to the fare model to me. (*) Why there is such a requirement is baffling of course when the Pre-Pay card must carry just as much information as a printed ticket, yet just the latter is accepted for through journeys. Clearly feeder buses might be an issue, but not changes of tram. |
Oyster prepay fare capping
In article ,
Neil Williams wrote: I wonder does the Oyster store enough information about a bus journey to disallow "changing" onto the same route as you describe? That's not sufficent; I could use the 257 in one direction and the WsomethingIforget the other. -- Mike Bristow - really a very good driver |
Oyster prepay fare capping
On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 10:16:48 -0000, "Solar Penguin"
wrote: --- Phil Richards said... Solar Penguin wrote: And even better still for LUL to adopt point-to-point instead of all that zone nonsense. Why not be silly enough to suggest that London Buses go back to a system of fare tables for each route? What's silly about that? In the present system, even if you just take a *local* bus ride, just a couple of stops or so, you have to pay the same as a journey the *whole length* of the bus route! Think how much money you could save if you only paid for the short journey you actually travel, instead of all those miles you don't! Remember zonal fares in London have been in force for over 20 years now And that's what scientists call "the Concorde fallacy", i.e. "We've been trying, without any success, to make this thing work for so many years now, that it's pointless to give up now, even though when we finally do get something that works, it won't be worth all the effort we've put into it!" Face it, twenty years is *too* long. It's definitely time to get rid of the zones by now. Long overdue in fact. I completely disagree. It would be mad to get rid of the zonal system. The old point to point system was hugely complicated and very costly to run - both in terms of administration but also in terms of ticket issuing times. Even with an electronic system as we have now it would be worse than the current relatively simple structure. It would also be much harder for passengers to understand and you would certainly struggle to have innovative features like pre-pay discounts, counter peak direction discounts or modal through tickets. We should have a proper integrated fare structure, true. But it should be based on point-to-point fares, not zones. Face facts, the zones are just a con to make us pay for distances we haven't travelled. For example, you get on an East London Line train at New Cross to travel across the river to Wapping. But you can't buy a ticket to Wapping. Instead, you have to buy a Zone Two ticket that's valid beyond Wapping, all the way to Bromley-by-Bow! And no chance of getting a refund on the unused portion of your ticket. Sorry but why do you imagine that your fare to Wapping would be less in the future than it is today. All that would happen would be that fares would rise overall to deal with the mileage and related cost that you cling to as some sort of justification for adopting point to points. In the case of NR fares almost all PTPs are far more expensive than the Tube equivalent. The only case where this does not apply is with cheap day tickets where discounts are different to those on LU or with operator specific tickets. Another example, you have a choice of fast Metropolitan Line trains or slow Jubilee Line trains when travelling from Wembley Park to Baker Street. Common sense says that the faster trains should be more expensive. That way, any customers who want to save money can use the cheaper, slower trains. But because of the stupid zonal system, we all end up paying to travel on the Metropolitan trains, with no option for a cheaper ticket. But there is no justification at all for differentiating fares like this on an urban railway system. It is also completely and utterly unenforceable. To use your theoretical basis Turnham Green would have to have two sets of fares to everywhere to deal with the fact that for a tiny part (early and late) of the day super fast Piccadilly Line trains stop. These are traditionally off peak times when fares would be cheaper but in your version they would be more expensive than the slow chug along District Line which provides the service at the height of the peak - the most expensive time of the day. Lunacy! Yes, the zones work for maximising LUL's profit, but are crap at giving good value to customers. No truly fair fares can ever come out of it. (Admittedly, the NR TOCs aren't always fair in practice either, but at least a fair point-to-point system could be made. That's impossible with a zonal system, and always will be.) What profit? This is nothing to do with profit maximisation - if it was then LU fares would be far higher than they are now. This is about trying to price on the basis of a relatively simple system which charges more for travel in the most congested part of the network (Zone 1) which also providing tickets that will encourage usage and mobility in the off peak. Whether you like it or not I cannot envisage the day when a zonal basis for fares in London will be abolished. The public hostility would be too great as it would be seen as a step towards abolition of Travelcard which is a politically protected product under the rail privatisation legislation. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
Oyster prepay fare capping
On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 12:31:47 +0000 (UTC), Mike Bristow
wrote: That's not sufficent; I could use the 257 in one direction and the WsomethingIforget the other. OK, how about a radical change? Replace the single with a 2-hour ticket, and legitimise what you suggest. They do that in Prague. Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK When replying please use neil at the above domain 'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read. |
Oyster prepay fare capping
|
Oyster prepay fare capping
Dave Arquati wrote in :
I believe TfL are planning a reduced fare for a combined bus + Tube journey using prepay, but this could be a while off as they wait for each new Oyster product to "embed" itself (initial prepay, then bus prepay, then peak bus fares, and then probably capping). A discounted "through" bus fare would be excellent but could be open to abuse - if it were based on a reasonable time allowance (say, 45 mins between touching in on the first bus and the second) then you could make a short bus journey, get off and do something, and get back on the return bus. I assume it is too much to expect this to mean that one fare would allow unlimited travel for an hour (the way many continental systems work) but we will see yet more complexity added to an already over complex system? (some systems, I think Berlin, now explicitly disallow a return journey for the one fare, even if within the hour) |
Oyster prepay fare capping
On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 23:41:06 +0000 (UTC), David Jackman
wrote: (some systems, I think Berlin, now explicitly disallow a return journey for the one fare, even if within the hour) Hamburg's system is oddly "slack" in that it doesn't have a specified time limit - it's just valid for a single journey on as many modes as you like for as long as it takes. Other than the fact that most people buy day tickets or passes, I hate to think how much fraud that results in. Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK When replying please use neil at the above domain 'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read. |
Oyster prepay fare capping
"Solar Penguin" wrote in message ... What's silly about that? In the present system, even if you just take a *local* bus ride, just a couple of stops or so, you have to pay the same as a journey the *whole length* of the bus route! Think how much money you could save if you only paid for the short journey you actually travel, instead of all those miles you don't! But this is one of the great strengths of a zonal fares system: it encourages people to walk instead of clogging up PT for short journeys. D A Stocks |
Oyster prepay fare capping
I assume it is too much to expect this to mean that one fare would allow
unlimited travel for an hour (the way many continental systems work) but we will see yet more complexity added to an already over complex system? (some systems, I think Berlin, now explicitly disallow a return journey for the one fare, even if within the hour) It seems to me that once you start having tickets with certain time limits on them (e.g. single tickets on Tramlink being valid for 90 minutes from issue) this has to be the way you go. What is the situation with tickets issued from kerb side ticket machines in the central London pay before boarding area and at stops served by bendibus routes? Presumably they must have a time limit on them. Are they also only valid from the stop they were issued from? What is the mechanism to stop them being presented more than once or isn't there one? G. |
Oyster prepay fare capping
Graham J wrote:
I assume it is too much to expect this to mean that one fare would allow unlimited travel for an hour (the way many continental systems work) but we will see yet more complexity added to an already over complex system? (some systems, I think Berlin, now explicitly disallow a return journey for the one fare, even if within the hour) It seems to me that once you start having tickets with certain time limits on them (e.g. single tickets on Tramlink being valid for 90 minutes from issue) this has to be the way you go. What is the situation with tickets issued from kerb side ticket machines in the central London pay before boarding area and at stops served by bendibus routes? Presumably they must have a time limit on them. Are they also only valid from the stop they were issued from? What is the mechanism to stop them being presented more than once or isn't there one? The time limited ticket has many advantages but also some disadvantages. For example, the continental cities where they are used may well have more reliable systems than London; your 90 minute ticket may expire whilst you are stuck on the Tube, which would upset the ticket holder greatly as the circumstance is beyond their control. On Oyster it might be possible to extend the time limit from certain origins when delays are reported, but that would require some complicated logic and relies on delays being reported accurately. The disadvantage of Oyster is that you can't see what's on your ticket; if you don't know the expiry time, then it can be hard to make an interchange choice mid-journey if you don't know when your ticket expires. I like TfL's idea of discounts for Tube-bus or bus-Tube through journeys, but it may be difficult to implement. There would have to be a limit on the time allowed for a bus journey to a Tube station, and a limit on the time allowed to catch a bus after getting off the Tube. -- Dave Arquati Imperial College, SW7 www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London |
Oyster prepay fare capping
I like TfL's idea of discounts for Tube-bus or bus-Tube through
journeys, but it may be difficult to implement. There would have to be a limit on the time allowed for a bus journey to a Tube station, and a limit on the time allowed to catch a bus after getting off the Tube. I don't see that as being too difficult, provided you don't try to be too clever about it and try too hard to limit it to genuine bus-tube or tube-bus through journeys. Just make it a general case that any tube ticket bought within a certain time of any bus ticket attracts a discount, and vice versa, where that time could be extremely generous (say a couple of hours). There will be those who are actually making two completely separate journeys, or a return journey, who also get a bit of a discount but I don't see any problem there at all. Just means a lot more happier people surely? Indeed you might not need a time limit at all. If you were just interested in encouraging peak time bus-tube through journeys then make it a peak-time incentive. If you want to encourage it all day then make it all day. Don't worry about how long apart the actual journeys are. |
Oyster prepay fare capping
Graham J wrote:
I like TfL's idea of discounts for Tube-bus or bus-Tube through journeys, but it may be difficult to implement. There would have to be a limit on the time allowed for a bus journey to a Tube station, and a limit on the time allowed to catch a bus after getting off the Tube. I don't see that as being too difficult, provided you don't try to be too clever about it and try too hard to limit it to genuine bus-tube or tube-bus through journeys. Just make it a general case that any tube ticket bought within a certain time of any bus ticket attracts a discount, and vice versa, where that time could be extremely generous (say a couple of hours). There will be those who are actually making two completely separate journeys, or a return journey, who also get a bit of a discount but I don't see any problem there at all. Just means a lot more happier people surely? Indeed you might not need a time limit at all. If you were just interested in encouraging peak time bus-tube through journeys then make it a peak-time incentive. If you want to encourage it all day then make it all day. Don't worry about how long apart the actual journeys are. Thinking about it, it would be quite hard to abuse the system anyway - I imagine the number of return trips where one leg is by Tube and the other leg is by bus are small - except perhaps for when the return journey is after the Tube stops. Even so, if you are TfL, then it would be difficult to explain why you are offering discounts for any bus journey following a Tube journey in the same day (or vice versa). The main reason behind this idea has to be to make life fairer or more convenient for people travelling to areas not well-served by Tube, but still within a certain journey time of a Tube station. Therefore it would make sense to introduce a reasonably long time limit for the interchange (as you said initially), rather than a blanket all-day discount which doesn't really serve any purpose. A couple of hours between boarding a bus and entering a Tube station, or between exiting a Tube station and boarding a bus, should be more than sufficient - it would allow reasonable flexibility, such as visiting a shop at the interchange point or meeting a friend en route. The discount system might also encourage use of the suburban bus network for those who don't usually take buses, which could have a knock-on effect in increased bus use even when not related to a Tube trip, as those people become more comfortable with buses. Applying a similar "relaxed" logic to bus-bus through journeys isn't necessarily a bad thing either. You could allow people an hour between boarding one bus and the subsequent bus; enough time for an interchange, but also for a quick return journey - but the latter would probably be a minority of journeys anyway, and might even encourage use of the bus (increasing profits). -- Dave Arquati Imperial College, SW7 www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London |
Oyster prepay fare capping
In article , Graham J wrote:
I don't see that as being too difficult, provided you don't try to be too clever about it and try too hard to limit it to genuine bus-tube or tube-bus through journeys. Just make it a general case that any tube ticket bought within a certain time of any bus ticket attracts a discount, and vice versa, where that time could be extremely generous (say a couple of hours). That's the system they have in Melbourne: "Two Hour Metcards allow unlimited train, tram and bus travel for at least two hours within selected zones on the day of first validation. The ticket expires two hours from the next full hour after the first validation. For example - a ticket validated at 9.05 am will expire at 12.00 noon and a ticket validated at 8.55 am will expire at 11.00 am. In addition, tickets first validated after 6.00 pm are valid until the end of services for that day." http://www.metlinkmelbourne.com.au/m...es/twohour.php 2 hours is A$3.10 v. A$5.90 for a one-day pass (Zone 1, say 10 mile radius of city centre) = £1.25/£2.40 approx. -- Tony Bryer |
Oyster prepay fare capping
"David Jackman" wrote in message 52.50... Dave Arquati wrote in : I believe TfL are planning a reduced fare for a combined bus + Tube journey using prepay, but this could be a while off as they wait for each new Oyster product to "embed" itself (initial prepay, then bus prepay, then peak bus fares, and then probably capping). A discounted "through" bus fare would be excellent but could be open to abuse - if it were based on a reasonable time allowance (say, 45 mins between touching in on the first bus and the second) then you could make a short bus journey, get off and do something, and get back on the return bus. I assume it is too much to expect this to mean that one fare would allow unlimited travel for an hour (the way many continental systems work) but we will see yet more complexity added to an already over complex system? (some systems, I think Berlin, now explicitly disallow a return journey for the one fare, even if within the hour) Most european systems work this way. The ticket is for a single ride, with no doubling back or circular journeys. But as this is pretty difficult to enforce this, the time-limit is there as well. I can't say I've ever see a timed ticket (except a full day) that is defined as unlimited rides. tim |
Oyster prepay fare capping
On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 19:17:44 +0100, "tim"
wrote: I can't say I've ever see a timed ticket (except a full day) that is defined as unlimited rides. I *think*, unless I misunderstood, that Prague's system *does* offer unlimited rides. I'm beginning to take to the idea of discounting a repeat journey - one bus fare gbp1, two bus fares within an hour (say) gbp1.50, similar arrangement with tube fares. The main source of fraud which puts bus companies off the idea of offering through tickets, from what I can tell, isn't that people might pop to the shops and back on the same ticket - it's people getting a through ticket and going and giving it to someone else in the bus queue as they get off. They obviously wouldn't do that with a loaded Pre-Pay card! Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK When replying please use neil at the above domain 'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read. |
Oyster prepay fare capping
In message , tim
writes I can't say I've ever see a timed ticket (except a full day) that is defined as unlimited rides. Geneva does (or did when I was last there). Admittedly, though, that was over ten years ago. -- Ian Jelf, MITG Birmingham, UK Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk |
Oyster prepay fare capping
On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 21:06:37 +0000, Ian Jelf
wrote in : In message , tim writes I can't say I've ever see a timed ticket (except a full day) that is defined as unlimited rides. Geneva does (or did when I was last there). Admittedly, though, that was over ten years ago. Still does. Fr2.20 for 30 mins/2 zones, 2.50 for (IIRC 45 mins/3 zones, etc. Unfortunately ticket machines don't give change, so when it was Fr1.80 I often found myself having to pay with a Fr2 coin, but only able to claim Fr1.80 back from PPARC. I've since wised up and use the CASH (stored value) of my Swiss bank-card, which debits the exact amount. If I leave a credit on it, I can head straight to the buses at GVA instead of getting notes out of a cash mashine and then making a trivial purchase to get coins, as I usually run myself short of Swiss currency or spend it in the Duty Free on my way out. -- Ivan Reid, Electronic & Computer Engineering, ___ CMS Collaboration, Brunel University. Room 40-1-B12, CERN KotPT -- "for stupidity above and beyond the call of duty". |
Oyster prepay fare capping
Dave Arquati wrote to uk.transport.london on Tue, 11 Jan 2005:
Thinking about it, it would be quite hard to abuse the system anyway - I imagine the number of return trips where one leg is by Tube and the other leg is by bus are small - except perhaps for when the return journey is after the Tube stops. Oh, I quite often do that when going into London - if I'm in a hurry, or have a fixed appointment, I'll take the Tube there, and if I'm tired after shopping I'll probably catch a bus home. Or vice versa..... -- "Mrs Redboots" http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/ Website updated 2 January 2005 |
Oyster prepay fare capping
Ian Jelf wrote to uk.transport.london on Tue, 11 Jan 2005:
In message , tim 5200109735 writes I can't say I've ever see a timed ticket (except a full day) that is defined as unlimited rides. Geneva does (or did when I was last there). Admittedly, though, that was over ten years ago. I *think* Warsaw does, too, BICBW. -- "Mrs Redboots" http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/ Website updated 2 January 2005 |
Oyster prepay fare capping
"Mrs Redboots" wrote in message ... Ian Jelf wrote to uk.transport.london on Tue, 11 Jan 2005: In message , tim 5200109735 writes I can't say I've ever see a timed ticket (except a full day) that is defined as unlimited rides. Geneva does (or did when I was last there). Admittedly, though, that was over ten years ago. I *think* Warsaw does, too, BICBW. No, it seem that you are right (I did not use PT when I was there - I could not work out the tickets. It was pre internet, so I had no chance to find out before I went.) Now, I can't work out what the difference is between: Bilety okresowe miejskie na okaziciela and Bilety sieciowe okresowe na okaziciela Oh well, I'll just have to take the 2.40 Zl (0.50Eu) pd hit if I go back! tim -- "Mrs Redboots" http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/ Website updated 2 January 2005 |
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