"Nick" wrote in message
...
"Dave Arquati" wrote in message
...
...

The National Rail fares system is a complicated mess at the moment, and
hardly sets a good example for London to revert to.

...

Apart from a few anomalies, it isn't that complicated at all

It's complicated in the sense that all journeys are individually
priced. It is thus impossible for someone to sell you a ticket
from A to B without them having a complete database (thick
book or computer disk) of fares from every A to every B. To
be able to sell tickes for a zonal system all you need is a map
on the wall.

Effectively, this means that to buy a ticket for my journey I
have to queue up at the station. Were a complete zonal system
in operation accross all modes, I could just go and buy a ticket
from my local newsagents (as I could for LT journeys).

tim

--- Dave Arquati said...


I fail to see how an uncomplicated system which people can actually
understand is a problem. Zones are essentially distance-based

Distance based? Then how come a ticket from Morden to Waterloo (zones
1-4) costs the same as a ticket from Morden all the way to Mill Hill
East? Is it really fair that passengers only going as far as Waterloo
should pay for *twice* the distance they're actually travelling?

and keep people
happy when they can easily understand what fare they will pay.

And how are people happy when "they can easily understand" that they're
being charged *twice* as much as they should be charged? That might
make you happy, but I'm not so easily pleased!

How would Travelcards - the most useful and flexible ticket - work
under a point-to-point system?

You say "flexible" like it's a good thing. But it isn't. It's just a
con to make you pay for routes you don't actually use.

Suppose you want to travel, for example, from Crystal Palace to Oxford
Circus. Why can't you simply buy a cheap day return from Crystal Palace
to Oxford Circus? Instead you *have* to buy a One Day Travelcard for
zones 1-4, which means you're also paying for the flexibility of
travelling to Morden, Mill Hill East, Waterloo, and dozens of other
places that you won't actually visit today!


The National Rail fares system is a complicated mess at the moment,
and hardly sets a good example for London to revert to.

I agree that the NR system could be streamlined. So let's concentrate
on streamlining it, instead of scrapping it and replacing it with
something worse.

For example, the development of GPS systems means that it's possible to
calculate the straight-line, as-the-crow-flies distance between
stations, and use that as a basis for a point-to-point system. (This
way, we eliminate much of the complicated routing nonsense which makes
NR's present fares system so awkward. After all, from the customer's
POV it's only the start and end points that really matter, not the
places in between.)

Multiply that straight-line distance by a fixed pounds-per-mile rate,
and you get the base cost of the ticket. You can then add on various
fixed value premiums for premium services, e.g.

** travelling first class

** travelling by an express train instead of a stopping train

** even travelling by a train instead of a bus (assuming that this could
be the basis for tickets on all modes of transport)

Give the customers an itemised receipt along with their ticket, and they
can easily understand how the fare was worked out. And while we're at
it, let's get rid of pointless things like:

** different rates for adults and children. (After all, if you buy a
magazine or a can of drink, the shop won't charge you extra just because
you happen to be an adult. Why should adults buying train tickets be
penalised that way?)

** cheaper prices for tickets bought in advance. (If you buy a tin of
baked beans, the supermarket won't give you a discount if you leave the
tin on your shelf for a week with out opening it. The newsagent won't
reduce the price of a magazine if you keep it instead of reading it
right away. So why should tickets be cheaper if you don't use them
straight away?)

There we are. A nice, simple, streamlined, easy to follow system, based
entirely on the point-to-point system, and which cannot overcharge
people the way a zonal system does. That's the sort of thing the rail
companies should be aiming for. Not making things worse by forcing
zones on people.

--

"Napoleon was born on may 4th 1852 at Westminster so you are the one
asking all the luck going, if I were going to become a Vampire."
-- MegaHal

Solar Penguin wrote to uk.transport.london on Sat, 12 Feb 2005:

Suppose you want to travel, for example, from Crystal Palace to Oxford
Circus. Why can't you simply buy a cheap day return from Crystal Palace
to Oxford Circus? Instead you *have* to buy a One Day Travelcard for
zones 1-4, which means you're also paying for the flexibility of
travelling to Morden, Mill Hill East, Waterloo, and dozens of other
places that you won't actually visit today!

Why? It is probably cheaper (almost certainly, if you have Pre-pay) to
buy a ticket from Oxford Circus to Brixton & then take one of the 3 or 4
buses that go from there to Crystal Palace, and reverse it. There is no
obligation on you to buy a Travelcard if you don't want to.
--
"Mrs Redboots"
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 23 January 2005 with new photos

--- Solar Penguin said...


For example, the development of GPS systems means that it's possible
to calculate the straight-line, as-the-crow-flies distance between
stations, and use that as a basis for a point-to-point system. (This
way, we eliminate much of the complicated routing nonsense which makes
NR's present fares system so awkward. After all, from the customer's
POV it's only the start and end points that really matter, not the
places in between.)

Multiply that straight-line distance by a fixed pounds-per-mile rate,
and you get the base cost of the ticket. You can then add on various
fixed value premiums for premium services, e.g.

** travelling first class

** travelling by an express train instead of a stopping train

** even travelling by a train instead of a bus (assuming that this
could be the basis for tickets on all modes of transport)


Oops. I forgot to add that CDRs etc. can be treated as a fixed premium
added to the single fare at this point. Should've double checked
everything before I pressed Send. Sorry.

--

"Konstanza stopped, sighed, and leaned against a large black wireless.
You are standing in what others think of her." -- MegaHal

--- Mrs Redboots said...

Why? It is probably cheaper (almost certainly, if you have Pre-pay)
to buy a ticket from Oxford Circus to Brixton & then take one of the
3 or 4 buses that go from there to Crystal Palace, and reverse it.

Or even take a Number 3 bus all the way from Crystal Palace to Oxford
Circus. The only trouble with these methods is that you end up having
to travel on a bus. Not a pleasant way to travel at the best of times.
Worse, it means you're on a double-decker bus, which means annoyingly
low headroom. (Well, unless you get the single decker 322 from Crystal
Palce to Brixton, but that goes via a very long way round and takes
forever, so even the double deckers are preferable to it.)

(And besides, it's all academic because I don't have Pre-pay anyway. It
isn't valid on my local NR services and I don't travel by bus enough to
bother with it.)


--

"Through the pigeonhole flew a carrier pigeon. There was something
attached to its leg. It was a postman."
-- Spike Milligan.

Solar Penguin wrote to uk.transport.london on Sat, 12 Feb 2005:

--- Mrs Redboots said...

Why? It is probably cheaper (almost certainly, if you have Pre-pay)
to buy a ticket from Oxford Circus to Brixton & then take one of the
3 or 4 buses that go from there to Crystal Palace, and reverse it.

Or even take a Number 3 bus all the way from Crystal Palace to Oxford
Circus. The only trouble with these methods is that you end up having
to travel on a bus. Not a pleasant way to travel at the best of times.

But infinitely preferable to the Tube!

Worse, it means you're on a double-decker bus, which means annoyingly
low headroom. (Well, unless you get the single decker 322 from Crystal
Palce to Brixton, but that goes via a very long way round and takes
forever, so even the double deckers are preferable to it.)

And you can't see out of a single-decker. But sat in the front seat
upstairs on a double-decker (and since those are just by the stairs, no
problem with headroom), and in no hurry, it's a joy!

(And besides, it's all academic because I don't have Pre-pay anyway. It
isn't valid on my local NR services and I don't travel by bus enough to
bother with it.)

Well, that is fair enough!
--
"Mrs Redboots"
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 23 January 2005 with new photos

--- Mrs Redboots said...

Solar Penguin wrote to uk.transport.london on Sat, 12 Feb 2005:

Not a pleasant way to travel at the best of times.

But infinitely preferable to the Tube!

And yet you'd take the Tube all the way from Brixton, instead of just a
couple of stops from Victoria to Oxford Circus. :-)

Ok... Just to prevent this thread turning into a dull debate on the
subjective merits of Tube vs. single deckers vs. double deckers, I'll
withdraw my original statement and replace it with:

Suppose you want to travel, for example, from Crystal Palace to
Oxford Circus *by* *train* *and* *tube*. Why can't you simply
buy a cheap day return from Crystal Palace to Oxford Circus?
Instead you have to buy a One Day Travelcard for zones 1-4,
which means you're also paying for the flexibility of travelling to
Morden, Mill Hill East, Waterloo, and dozens of other places that
you won't actually visit today!

How's that...?

--

"Sexaphones are bad." -- Yads

tim wrote:
"Nick" wrote in message
...

"Dave Arquati" wrote in message
...

...

The National Rail fares system is a complicated mess at the moment, and
hardly sets a good example for London to revert to.

...

Apart from a few anomalies, it isn't that complicated at all


It's complicated in the sense that all journeys are individually
priced. It is thus impossible for someone to sell you a ticket

Every can of beans / newspaper / magazine / item of clothing / etc you
buy is individually priced and you cope with that don't you.

from A to B without them having a complete database (thick
book or computer disk) of fares from every A to every B. To
be able to sell tickes for a zonal system all you need is a map
on the wall.

Effectively, this means that to buy a ticket for my journey I
have to queue up at the station. Were a complete zonal system
in operation accross all modes, I could just go and buy a ticket
from my local newsagents (as I could for LT journeys).

tim

1. Assumption that there will be a queue at the station and not at the
newsagents. Whenever I buy a ticket (an extension as I have a Z1-3
annual) I do so off-peak and almost invariably there is no queue.
Buying a newspaper at the newsagents can be a horrible though, waiting
behind all those bloody people buying zonal tickets!

2. AFAIK, the reason, AFAIK, that fares structure takes 7 volumes or
whatever and it takes an age to buy a ticket is that BR had made
thousands of special terminal in the 1970s and these are what are still
being used by counter staff today. The memory capacity of these is very
limited indeed.

A modern box (probably running Linux and with a cheap 80-120GB hard
drive) could easily cope with all of the data and spit out the cheapest
or quickest option in a fraction of a second. With a decent UI[*] that
is what the passenger accessible machines would have as well.

* that includes learning that none of Waterloo, Charing Cross and
Victoria start with an L.

--- tim said...


It's complicated in the sense that all journeys are individually
priced.

And why is being individually priced a bad thing? Look at the example I
gave elsewhere in the thread: the Northern Line ticket from Morden to
Waterloo costs the same as the ticket from Morden going all the way to
Mill Hill East. Passangers to Waterloo are paying for around twice as
much journey than they actually use. An individually priced
Morden-Waterloo ticket would solve this problem.

--

"What a wonderful butler - he's so violent!" -- Douglas Adams.

Nick wrote:
"Dave Arquati" wrote in message
...

...

I fail to see how an uncomplicated system which people can actually
understand is a problem. Zones are essentially distance-based, but take
into account a need to be flexible with travel plans, the fact that
central London is much busier than outer London, and keep people happy
when they can easily understand what fare they will pay.

...


Plus, this idea that fares need to be "simple" is far too overplayed IMO.
So what if some cheaper fares are a little more complicated to undestand the
restrictions of?

For people who travel to London occasionally or tourists, I can see the need
for a fairly simple ticketing scheme, be it zonal or whatever, and our
existing Travelcard fits the bill nicely.

But for the vast majority of us, hardened London commuters who know our
routes very well indeed, we can surely be exposed to a little choice in our
ticketing range so we can opt to spend less and restrict our ticket
availability to match our modes of transport?

I understand that if you're a regular commuter then you want a little
choice in your ticketing range. However, I highly doubt that TfL are
going to abandon rail-only seasons - if they do, then you have my
support to protest extensively as the cheaper price of rail-only seasons
encourages people not to change to the Underground if it's not
necessary, avoiding extra overcrowding. I'm sure TfL are intelligent
enough to recognise that too.

We are talking about single/return fares. Now, any single fare that
involves through Tube-train travel will almost certainly be cheaper
under the TfL zonal mechanism than the current fare, as that extra £2 or
more for the Tube journey will be absorbed. The same probably applies
for CDR+Tube as it's an extra £4 that's being added for the Tube.

For rail-only journeys outside Zone 1, TfL fares will also probably be
cheaper - they're a maximum of £1.80 under Oyster for longer journeys or
£1.30 for shorter ones.

All that's left are day return journeys to London terminals, which would
unfortunately be more expensive under this system. Single would be £2.50
from a Zone 4 station, return would be £4.70 (capped to the price of a
Travelcard).

If we take Crystal Palace as an example, a single to Victoria would be
£3.10 now, or a return would be £3.60. On the plus side, you get free
bus and tube travel "thrown in". I guess it all depends what proportion
of day-returners arriving at London terminals don't use any other
transport during the day.


--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - transport projects in London