"James Christie" wrote in message
...
In message net.com,
Roger T. may have written...


They are a product and reflection of our society and of their parents.
They're not going to to be the offspring of wealthy, attentive parents,
I
wager, but the offspring of the those parents who couldn't give a damn
(and have probably never talked to them nicely in their life). We need
more information before we can draw any conclusions about how to deal
with
it... but actually catching the culprits would be a good start!

It's societies fault. It's their parent's fault. It's the environment's
fault. It's the school system's fault. It's everybody's and everything's
bloody fault but it's not their fault.

With attitudes like that, no wonder many kids are like they are.

Funny, when we used to beat the crap outta kids who did this sort of
thing,
kids didn't do this sort of thing.

I've a feeling that there's a correlation in there somewhere.


--
Cheers
Roger T.

Home of the Great Eastern Railway
http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/


I should think so Roger. When I was a lad (now theres a cliche!), I would
never contemplate breaking windows, vandalism by way of graffiti, or
mugging/attacking OAPs. As not only was I aware from a young that such a
thing was inherently wrong, but I also knew that if I did, not only would
I get a hiding from my father but I'd probably get one from the person
I'd committed said act against!
I mean, do all the people who make todays policy think that it was a total
coincidence that when we had things like corporal punishment in schools,
or getting 30 days in jail for stealing a bag of coal from the Pit, that
these "barbaric" practices had nothing to do with the virtual absence of
graffiti/vandilism etc?
--
To be fair, I was never really beaten as a kid, and I've never done any of
those things (my list of crimes so far has been: doing 85 on a motorway -
though not looking at the speedo; buying child rate tickets while I still
had a school uniform (up to 18); sticking a reduced label off a rotten box
of fruit onto a decent box.
I therefore dispute the assertion that the only way to teach kids not to do
these thing is through beating.

Aaron

"Rick Hughes" wrote in message
...
"Roger T." wrote in
landnet.com:

Funny, when we used to beat the crap outta kids who did this sort of
thing, kids didn't do this sort of thing.

So, back in the good old days of social utopia, which kids did we 'beat
the
crap' out of, if kids didn't do 'this sort of thing'?
Or did we use to beat the crap out of them all, just in case they might
have otherwise become kids who did this sort of thing? Institutional
physical abuse as a cure for society's ills... Not a particularly
attractive society, IMHO.

I also think that the antisocial photographers referred to in another thread
would have been beaten at school - they were still being obnoxious.

Aaron

In the message
oups.com...
"grid58 (Paul)" wrote:

Rich Mallard wrote:

So that's 173 windows smashed at the weekend? What the hell is
happening
around here???

Seen the same in the West Midlands. On one occaision a bus was
effectively demolished. This was witnessed by a number of other
customers who wrere too afraid to do anything. Despite those on board
camera's no-one ever seems to get punished or publicly made an example
of. I suspect this maybe because the culprits are juveniles.

How much damage will it take before our society takes notice of what is
going on and stands up to it?

Rather than trying to talk nicely to them, perhaps we should have
regime where you get one chance. Do it again and off with your
******** or something.

Well, the DFT seems to be concerned, as it has a section on :
"Crime and Public Transport" on its Website, at URL:

http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/group...rime_page.hcsp

Regards,

- Alan (in Brussels)

"James Christie" wrote in message
...
In message , Aaron Borbora
may have written...

"James Christie" wrote in message
...
In message net.com,
Roger T. may have written...


They are a product and reflection of our society and of their parents.
They're not going to to be the offspring of wealthy, attentive
parents,
I
wager, but the offspring of the those parents who couldn't give a damn
(and have probably never talked to them nicely in their life). We
need
more information before we can draw any conclusions about how to deal
with
it... but actually catching the culprits would be a good start!

It's societies fault. It's their parent's fault. It's the
environment's
fault. It's the school system's fault. It's everybody's and
everything's
bloody fault but it's not their fault.

With attitudes like that, no wonder many kids are like they are.

Funny, when we used to beat the crap outta kids who did this sort of
thing,
kids didn't do this sort of thing.

I've a feeling that there's a correlation in there somewhere.


--
Cheers
Roger T.

Home of the Great Eastern Railway
http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/


I should think so Roger. When I was a lad (now theres a cliche!), I
would
never contemplate breaking windows, vandalism by way of graffiti, or
mugging/attacking OAPs. As not only was I aware from a young that such a
thing was inherently wrong, but I also knew that if I did, not only
would
I get a hiding from my father but I'd probably get one from the person
I'd committed said act against!
I mean, do all the people who make todays policy think that it was a
total
coincidence that when we had things like corporal punishment in schools,
or getting 30 days in jail for stealing a bag of coal from the Pit, that
these "barbaric" practices had nothing to do with the virtual absence of
graffiti/vandilism etc?
--
To be fair, I was never really beaten as a kid, and I've never done any of
those things (my list of crimes so far has been: doing 85 on a motorway -
though not looking at the speedo; buying child rate tickets while I still
had a school uniform (up to 18); sticking a reduced label off a rotten
box
of fruit onto a decent box.
I therefore dispute the assertion that the only way to teach kids not to
do
these thing is through beating.

Aaron


Its not just knowing you're going to get a slap of the belt on your hand,
a skelp to your head etc. The parents seem to instill none of these values
into the kids.
Sure there are cases where kids ignore the parents, but that surely stems
from the parents being lax discipline wise earlier in their childs
upbringing. Although it may have been with the best of intentions it can
easily backfire in years to come. I mean, if a child or teenager gets
grounded now, do they care? With most kids (certainly round here) with
broadband connected PCs, TVs, DVDs, PS2s, XBOX etc in their bedroom and
almost all kids with their own mobile phones its no punishment whatsoever.
And if a parent shouts at a kid, well do they take notice? Going by the
behaviour of a lot of school pupils they'd probably tell them to **** off.
I'd never dare swear at a teacher when I was in school, indeed I've never
even swore in front of (never mind at) my parents even in my adult life.
Don't get me wrong, I HATED getting smacked when I was a kid, and when I
was 8 or so I swore I would never do it to any kids I'd have. It's only as
you get older that you appreciate your parents did those things for a
reason, a very good reason, and well it seemed to have worked out ok on
me.
So come on, all those who decry times past as barbarous, how do YOU
account for the massive decline in social standards, where you cant walk
on a street without their being litter, without seeing graffiti, where
Pensioners feel too scared to walk the streets by day and don't even think
about being out at night. If its not for the decline of traditional
discipline, then why is it?
--
Very interesting point, with which I mostly agree. Yes it is about
instilling values, but I wonder how I and presumably others seem to have
picked them up without getting hit (that's not to say I wasn't if I was
really out of line). Perhaps I've just invalidated my own argument there -
I'm not sure. It just seems that some people can learn hoe they are meant
to behave without having to having to be beaten to learn. I do agree that
parents should take some more responsibility, but if you have the situation
where the kids tell the parents to f-off (I would have something unpleasant
happen to me if I had done this, and still wont' say it around people older
than me today) than what can the parents do? We have the situation where
parents are going to prison because the kids truant and they seem to be
unable to stop it.
Not to mention pensions, I'm over 6' and still get nervous in the town
centre in the evenings - I don't see why I should have to feel like this,
but nothing seems to work. I can only see the situation get worse - when
this lot have kids heaven help us all!
The government are trying things like ASBOs, which don't seem to have worked
very well. What can we do instead? I'm not sure, but would subjecting kids
to whom violence has now become a way of life help matters? I'm not too
sure, but then again could be wrong. The only problem of corporal
punishment at school is that I'm not sure that I would trust some of old
teachers to administer it fairly, and when I asked them about it a large
number of teachers said they would never do it and found the idea abhorrent
(and they had been caned at school). Perhaps what we need to tackle these
problems is to give these kids a future. The country is moving more and
more towards degrees for everybody and you needs GCSEs and A-levels to get a
job and anything - yet many of those causing the trouble have no chance of
getting these qualifications (however easy people say the exams are). In
the past they would have been able to leave at 14/16 and go into productive
work - now they are at a school which they hate, doing badly which knocks
self-confidence and knowing that they will have a tough time to make
something of themselves at the end of it all. If we had a decent vocational
training programme then they could perhaps harness their energy into a more
productive outflow. The government seems to have missed its chance to do
this (exam reforms) and the current situation will not get any better.

Sorry for the long and rambling post, it's the product of a brain overworked
by adrenergic transmission, embryology, molecular DNA all in 1 day!

Aaron

On Mon, 28 Feb 2005, James Christie wrote:

In message net.com,
Roger T. may have written...

They are a product and reflection of our society and of their
parents. They're not going to to be the offspring of wealthy,
attentive parents, I wager, but the offspring of the those parents
who couldn't give a damn (and have probably never talked to them
nicely in their life). We need more information before we can draw
any conclusions about how to deal with it... but actually catching
the culprits would be a good start!

It's societies fault. It's their parent's fault. It's the
environment's fault. It's the school system's fault. It's everybody's
and everything's bloody fault but it's not their fault.

With attitudes like that, no wonder many kids are like they are.

Funny, when we used to beat the crap outta kids who did this sort of
thing, kids didn't do this sort of thing.

I've a feeling that there's a correlation in there somewhere.

I should think so Roger. When I was a lad (now theres a cliche!), I
would never contemplate breaking windows, vandalism by way of graffiti,
or mugging/attacking OAPs.

Same here.

The thing is, i'm 24, so 'when i was a lad' was within the last decade.

I mean, do all the people who make todays policy think that it was a
total coincidence that when we had things like corporal punishment in
schools, or getting 30 days in jail for stealing a bag of coal from the
Pit, that these "barbaric" practices had nothing to do with the virtual
absence of graffiti/vandilism etc?

I don't believe that there was an absence of vandalism. Graffiti was
perhaps less widespread, but i suspect that has more to do with the lack
of readily-available spray paint. Old people such as yourself often bang
on about how much better life was in the past, but every time i've seen
this looked into objectively, it's turned out to be rose-tinted spectacles
in action.

tom

--
skills to pay the bills!

On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 10:44:10 -0800, "Roger T."
wrote:

Funny, when we used to beat the crap outta kids who did this sort of thing,
kids didn't do this sort of thing.

It must have been some time ago. This morning I was reading news
reports about trains being attacked by stone throwers at Epsom - in
1905.

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

On Mon, 28 Feb 2005, Aaron Borbora wrote:

"James Christie" wrote in message
...

The parents seem to instill none of these values into the kids.

Very interesting point, with which I mostly agree. Yes it is about
instilling values, but I wonder how I and presumably others seem to have
picked them up without getting hit

And i wonder how so many kids who did get hit grew up into vicious
psychopaths.

I agree with both of you - the louts who are the cause of this problem are
the way they are because they lack civilised moral values, and i would
guess that's because their parents didn't instil them in them. Where i
don't agree with James, but i think i do agree with Aaron, is that
corporal punishment isn't the only way, or perhaps even a way at all, of
instilling values.

I think my parents taught me about right and wrong (before i got to
reading Mill!), but the only sanction they ever used which really meant
anything was their disapproval - they were the people i looked up to most
when i was a child, so when i did something wrong in their eyes, i felt
ashamed, and that's the stick that kept me away from doing evil (or at
least, from doing evil and getting caught). As the pen is mightier than
the sword, the paternal scowl is mightier than the wielded belt.

If i'm right, then the root of the lout's lack of morality is that they
don't respect their parents. Now, one person respects another because that
person does something to inspire respect (it's not as if children do or
should automatically respect their parents), so this lack of respect must
be because the parents have failed to conduct themselves properly. Looking
at the absolutely criminal standard of parenting i see in some people
around me, this is not at all surprising. Indeed, i venture to suggest
that a quick resort to violence, as James could be interpreted as
suggesting, is an element of this bad parenting, and a contributing factor
to the lack of respect.

Perhaps what we need to tackle these problems is to give these kids a
future.

What are you, some sort of pinko commie liberal?

Sorry for the long and rambling post, it's the product of a brain
overworked by adrenergic transmission, embryology, molecular DNA all in
1 day!

Good grief - not molecular DNA!

tom

--
skills to pay the bills!

"Aaron Borbora" typed


Sorry for the long and rambling post, it's the product of a brain
overworked
by adrenergic transmission, embryology, molecular DNA all in 1 day!

A DAY! LOOOXURY! In my day, we touched on those subjects in a MORNING!

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

Scripsit James Christie

I'd have a thought a sociopath would be absolutely ideal for the
Army. Someone who's prepared to Kill and follow orders, with no
conscience.

A sociopath might be prepared to kill with no conscience. But why
would he be inclined to follow orders?

--
Henning Makholm "It was intended to compile from some approximation to
the M-notation, but the M-notation was never fully defined,
because representing LISP functions by LISP lists became the
dominant programming language when the interpreter later became available."

On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 21:58:13 UTC, James Christie
wrote:

: So come on, all those who decry times past as barbarous, how do YOU
: account for the massive decline in social standards, where you cant walk
: on a street without their being litter, without seeing graffiti, where
: Pensioners feel too scared to walk the streets by day and don't even
: think about being out at night.

Sounds just like the Glasgow I was brought up in, thirty-plus years
ago. And that was a lot better than it had been in the fifties.

Ian
--