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Terror on the buses (Sidcup)
From:
http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/ne..._the_buses.php Terror on the buses By Linda Piper A COMMUTER has described how he was caught up in a riot of drunken teenagers on his way home from work. The 64-year-old City worker described how he and two other adults were trapped on a 233 bus crammed with youngsters which was then attacked by more than 50 other drunken youths who surrounded the bus and forced it to a standstill. Bexley police were flooded with calls from the public at 6.45pm on February 15, as the woman bus driver tried to prevent the bus from being stormed. The man got on the single-decker bus at Sidcup station on his way home from work. He quickly realised it was already crammed with teenagers who were drinking from cans of beer and passing whisky and vodka bottles between them. The bus turned into Faraday Avenue, where a crowd of other youngsters were at the bus stop. They surged into the road to force the bus to stop. They then started banging on the windscreen because the driver would not open the doors. "So they kicked the doors open and surged onto the bus," he said. "The noise was incredible and the bus was heaving." He said while the bus driver called for help on her mobile phone, some of the youngsters were forced off the bus because it was so packed. "Those on the bus stood on the seats punching the roof and swinging on the straps trying to kick out the windows. "And those outside were kicking the bus and headbutting it, also trying to smash the windows." Several young passengers began slashing the seats with knives while others were trying to etch the bus windows. As he and the other terrified adults tried to stay calm, he said some of the youngsters then starting attacking nearby cars jumping up and down on them. He added: "They broke into one and started flashing its lights and sounding the horn. "They broke the bus's emergency doors and then started lashing out at passing vehicles." Eventually a police van arrived, but there were only two officers. "They decided all they could do was protect the driver," he claimed. The City worker and two fellow passengers managed to escape the bus and get on a following 492. A group of about 10 of the young people had moved to the next bus stop in Station Road and tried to get on the 492 but were ordered off by the driver. "When we got to Sidcup High Street there was another rampaging crowd of young people at the bus stop throwing bottles and cans and the driver wouldn't stop," he said. "I have seen riots on television and in London but in my worst nightmare I couldn't imagine anything like this happening." He said some of the girls were as young as 12. "They were apparently all going to an under-18 disco at Deja Vu in Swanley and had decided to get tanked up beforehand. "There was nothing the two police officers could do. They were so violent. People have no idea what is going on in Sidcup these days." Police confirmed a window was smashed on a second bus in nearby Longlands Road about 20 minutes later. 10:10am Wednesday 23rd February 2005 |
Terror on the buses (Sidcup)
"Rich Mallard" wrote in message ... From: http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/ne..._the_buses.php Terror on the buses By Linda Piper A COMMUTER has described how he was caught up in a riot of drunken teenagers on his way home from work. And in nearby Dartford: From: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/kent/4303825.stm Passengers using the Gravesend to Dartford railway line in Kent are having to travel on shorter trains because of vandalism at the weekend. Six trains were out of commission on Monday after suffering damage estimated at £6,000. The worst damage occurred on Saturday night when youths travelling on four trains between the two towns smashed 102 windows from inside the carriages. Another 71 windows were smashed on two more trains using the same line. Two youths were arrested by Kent Police after a train was stopped outside Northfleet station. Officers said they were searching for another four people. South Eastern Trains warned passengers to expect short notice alterations and delays on some of its services as a result of the vandalism. So that's 173 windows smashed at the weekend? What the hell is happening around here??? Rich |
Terror on the buses (Sidcup)
Rich Mallard wrote: So that's 173 windows smashed at the weekend? What the hell is happening around here??? Seen the same in the West Midlands. On one occaision a bus was effectively demolished. This was witnessed by a number of other customers who wrere too afraid to do anything. Despite those on board camera's no-one ever seems to get punished or publicly made an example of. I suspect this maybe because the culprits are juveniles. How much damage will it take before our society takes notice of what is going on and stands up to it? Rather than trying to talk nicely to them, perhaps we should have regime where you get one chance. Do it again and off with your ******** or something. |
Terror on the buses (Sidcup)
"James Christie" wrote in message ... In message .com, "grid58 (Paul)" may have written... Rich Mallard wrote: So that's 173 windows smashed at the weekend? What the hell is happening around here??? Seen the same in the West Midlands. On one occaision a bus was effectively demolished. This was witnessed by a number of other customers who wrere too afraid to do anything. Despite those on board camera's no-one ever seems to get punished or publicly made an example of. I suspect this maybe because the culprits are juveniles. How much damage will it take before our society takes notice of what is going on and stands up to it? Rather than trying to talk nicely to them, perhaps we should have regime where you get one chance. Do it again and off with your ******** or something. Or indeed, as is oft called for up here in the local and national newspapers, Bring Back the Birch! But that's never going to happen, nor should it. We don't inflict pain on people to control their behavior anymore, and thank goodness for that. It demeans our civilised soceity to even contemplate it, I think. Not sure if it was common in England or not, but it lasted pretty late in Scotland, and for minor offences the punishment was a set number of lashes by the 'birch' (small branches tethered together). Either that, send the little *******s off to the Army. We need to know what's going on in their heads before drawing any conclusions. This is all purely reactive stuff, but we need to stop this situation from happening in the first place. What has made these kids into violent, aggressive morons? If we can find out, we might just have a chance of changing it. It doesn't matter how severe you make the penalty, the fact is that they aren't being caught in the first place! So this is perhaps all really rather academic... Rich |
Terror on the buses (Sidcup)
"grid58 (Paul)" wrote in message oups.com... Rich Mallard wrote: So that's 173 windows smashed at the weekend? What the hell is happening around here??? Seen the same in the West Midlands. On one occaision a bus was effectively demolished. This was witnessed by a number of other customers who wrere too afraid to do anything. Despite those on board camera's no-one ever seems to get punished or publicly made an example of. I suspect this maybe because the culprits are juveniles. I think the trouble is the kids know that the police/authorities etc don't take this sufficiently seriously. They know they will probably get away with it (and let's face it - they're right). How much damage will it take before our society takes notice of what is going on and stands up to it? When there is a rise in vigilantism in reaction to it (then all of a sudden it will be a priority). Rather than trying to talk nicely to them, perhaps we should have regime where you get one chance. Do it again and off with your ******** or something. They are a product and reflection of our society and of their parents. They're not going to to be the offspring of wealthy, attentive parents, I wager, but the offspring of the those parents who couldn't give a damn (and have probably never talked to them nicely in their life). We need more information before we can draw any conclusions about how to deal with it... but actually catching the culprits would be a good start! Rich |
Terror on the buses (Sidcup)
On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 17:40:54 +0000, James Christie wrote:
send the little *******s off to the Army. I always wondered about the logic of that. Here's a sociopath, what shall we do with him? Ah, the perfect thing, put a rifle in his hand. -- http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p12161698.html (ex-GWR Railcar 22 in fine form at Didcot in 1995) |
Terror on the buses (Sidcup)
On 28 Feb 2005 09:22:56 -0800, "grid58 (Paul)"
wrote: Rich Mallard wrote: So that's 173 windows smashed at the weekend? What the hell is happening around here??? Seen the same in the West Midlands. On one occaision a bus was effectively demolished. This was witnessed by a number of other customers who wrere too afraid to do anything. Despite those on board camera's no-one ever seems to get punished or publicly made an example of. I suspect this maybe because the culprits are juveniles. How much damage will it take before our society takes notice of what is going on and stands up to it? Rather than trying to talk nicely to them, perhaps we should have regime where you get one chance. Do it again and off with your ******** or something. Some people were prosecuted for a riot in Croydon last year in which a tram was reported to have been damaged. Amazingly, someone wrote to the local paper complaining about their sentences. -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
Terror on the buses (Sidcup)
Chris Tolley wrote:
On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 17:40:54 +0000, James Christie wrote: send the little *******s off to the Army. I always wondered about the logic of that. Here's a sociopath, what shall we do with him? Ah, the perfect thing, put a rifle in his hand. Yes, there is a strange logic in putting people with no self discipline into a career where they will never be able to learn it. This is of course the most likely reason why ex-service personnel are so strongly over-represented in the prison population, and in almost every other accepted measure of social dysfunction. Tony |
Terror on the buses (Sidcup)
They are a product and reflection of our society and of their parents. They're not going to to be the offspring of wealthy, attentive parents, I wager, but the offspring of the those parents who couldn't give a damn (and have probably never talked to them nicely in their life). We need more information before we can draw any conclusions about how to deal with it... but actually catching the culprits would be a good start! It's societies fault. It's their parent's fault. It's the environment's fault. It's the school system's fault. It's everybody's and everything's bloody fault but it's not their fault. With attitudes like that, no wonder many kids are like they are. Funny, when we used to beat the crap outta kids who did this sort of thing, kids didn't do this sort of thing. I've a feeling that there's a correlation in there somewhere. -- Cheers Roger T. Home of the Great Eastern Railway http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/ |
Terror on the buses (Sidcup)
In message , Chris Tolley
may have written... On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 17:40:54 +0000, James Christie wrote: send the little *******s off to the Army. I always wondered about the logic of that. Here's a sociopath, what shall we do with him? Ah, the perfect thing, put a rifle in his hand. I'd have a thought a sociopath would be absolutely ideal for the Army. Someone who's prepared to Kill and follow orders, with no conscience. Wasn't there a TV documentary on a few months back which gave the statistic that only a small percentage of soldiers in Big Mistake 2 actually shot (aimed) at the enemy, they couldn't bring themselves to do it. -- Regards, James Christie THE OPTIMIST, PESSIMIST & BI ENGINEER To the optimist, the glass is half full. To the pessimist, the glass is half empty. To the engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be. To the BI engineer, the glass is only half as big as it needs to be ...... and it's bloody near empty. "BOY". Delete NOSPAM and insert Christie to email me. |
Terror on the buses (Sidcup)
James Christie wrote:
In message net.com, Roger T. may have written... They are a product and reflection of our society and of their parents. They're not going to to be the offspring of wealthy, attentive parents, I wager, but the offspring of the those parents who couldn't give a damn (and have probably never talked to them nicely in their life). We need more information before we can draw any conclusions about how to deal with it... but actually catching the culprits would be a good start! It's societies fault. It's their parent's fault. It's the environment's fault. It's the school system's fault. It's everybody's and everything's bloody fault but it's not their fault. With attitudes like that, no wonder many kids are like they are. Funny, when we used to beat the crap outta kids who did this sort of thing, kids didn't do this sort of thing. I've a feeling that there's a correlation in there somewhere. I should think so Roger. When I was a lad (now theres a cliche!), I would never contemplate breaking windows, vandalism by way of graffiti, or mugging/attacking OAPs. As not only was I aware from a young that such a thing was inherently wrong, but I also knew that if I did, not only would I get a hiding from my father but I'd probably get one from the person I'd committed said act against! Don't tarnish all youths with the same brush. How often do you read in the paper "a group of under-18s took the bus normally with no commotion"? Just because one bunch of idiots caused chaos doesn't mean that all teenagers are automatically guilty. I'll think you'll find that most teenagers today still actually know that mugging pensioners is wrong! -- Dave Arquati Imperial College, SW7 www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London |
Terror on the buses (Sidcup)
In message , Dave Arquati
may have written... James Christie wrote: In message ndnet.com, Roger T. may have written... They are a product and reflection of our society and of their parents. They're not going to to be the offspring of wealthy, attentive parents, I wager, but the offspring of the those parents who couldn't give a damn (and have probably never talked to them nicely in their life). We need more information before we can draw any conclusions about how to deal with it... but actually catching the culprits would be a good start! It's societies fault. It's their parent's fault. It's the environment's fault. It's the school system's fault. It's everybody's and everything's bloody fault but it's not their fault. With attitudes like that, no wonder many kids are like they are. Funny, when we used to beat the crap outta kids who did this sort of thing, kids didn't do this sort of thing. I've a feeling that there's a correlation in there somewhere. I should think so Roger. When I was a lad (now theres a cliche!), I would never contemplate breaking windows, vandalism by way of graffiti, or mugging/attacking OAPs. As not only was I aware from a young that such a thing was inherently wrong, but I also knew that if I did, not only would I get a hiding from my father but I'd probably get one from the person I'd committed said act against! Don't tarnish all youths with the same brush. How often do you read in the paper "a group of under-18s took the bus normally with no commotion"? Just because one bunch of idiots caused chaos doesn't mean that all teenagers are automatically guilty. I'll think you'll find that most teenagers today still actually know that mugging pensioners is wrong! Erg, I think you're reading too much into my post. I wasn't referring to teenagers in general, I was merely referring to those who think its ok to commit the aforementioned acts for their own amusement. My neighbour has a 15 year old daughter, and she has her friends about all the time, and I could never complain about it, they're a smashing group of kids, and I'm sure the same can be said for a lot of them. As regards the kids who do commit vandalism/petty crimes etc, I'm sure the parent have a lot to answer for there. I have a few friends who are teachers, and some of the stories they come back with are unreal, kids swearing at them willy nilly, knowing there'll be next to no action taken against them, total breakdown of discipline in the playground, bullying (between pupils) widespread and graffiti and vandalism rampant. Physical violence against teachers is now so regular that a lot of it is no longer reported, as the Police can't do anything about it (burden of proof, is it in public interest etc). The teachers have even been told that they can no longer shout at their pupils, as this may affect them emotionally. The school also has a policy of zero expulsions, so these 'problem' kids are allowed back into classroom to cause further havoc. These 4 friends have been considering resigning for some time now, but they realise that if they leave, some other poor sod will have to put up with it, so they stay, as they think it'd be wrong to run out on the school. Can you call that normal, or ok? Why should anyone have to put up with it? Was it like that when you were at school? As it certainly wasn't with mine! -- Regards, James Christie THE OPTIMIST, PESSIMIST & BI ENGINEER To the optimist, the glass is half full. To the pessimist, the glass is half empty. To the engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be. To the BI engineer, the glass is only half as big as it needs to be ...... and it's bloody near empty. "BOY". Delete NOSPAM and insert Christie to email me. |
Terror on the buses (Sidcup)
"Roger T." wrote in
landnet.com: Funny, when we used to beat the crap outta kids who did this sort of thing, kids didn't do this sort of thing. So, back in the good old days of social utopia, which kids did we 'beat the crap' out of, if kids didn't do 'this sort of thing'? Or did we use to beat the crap out of them all, just in case they might have otherwise become kids who did this sort of thing? Institutional physical abuse as a cure for society's ills... Not a particularly attractive society, IMHO. Rick. |
Terror on the buses (Sidcup)
Rich Mallard wrote:
From: http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/ne..._the_buses.php Terror on the buses By Linda Piper A COMMUTER has described how he was caught up in a riot of drunken teenagers on his way home from work. snip I had a similar experience on the 213 from New Malden to Kingston a few weeks ago - bus pulled in at New Malden station and as usual I glanced upstairs to see how busy the bus was. It wasn't full but had around 20 youths who seemed to be running rampage on the top deck banging on the floor and windows, drinking and smoking. From the few more sensible ones downstairs, I gathered they were all off to an under 18s disco in Kingston. It was busy downstairs but none of the other passengers (myself included) risked climbing the stairs for fear of God knows what. These kids must have been between 13 and 17. Just what is going on with our society? *sigh* Cheers, Steve M (On re-reading that, I can't believe I'm only 26...) |
Terror on the buses (Sidcup)
Rich Mallard wrote:
From: http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/ne..._the_buses.php Terror on the buses By Linda Piper A COMMUTER has described how he was caught up in a riot of drunken teenagers on his way home from work. Very similar experience on either the 69 or the 97 between Leyton and Baker's Arms a few weeks ago. Every time the bus stopped, about 20 of them piled off and beat the **** out of whoever happened to be walking down the pavement. Don't think they caused any bus damage, but they took a few casualties on the way... |
Terror on the buses (Sidcup)
James Christie wrote to uk.transport.london on Mon, 28 Feb 2005:
I mean, do all the people who make todays policy think that it was a total coincidence that when we had things like corporal punishment in schools, or getting 30 days in jail for stealing a bag of coal from the Pit, that these "barbaric" practices had nothing to do with the virtual absence of graffiti/vandilism etc? One of my pet peeves is when people confuse hitting children with disciplining them. Nobody hit anybody at the school I went to, but we were well-disciplined and there were plenty of sanctions if we *did* misbehave. Which mostly we didn't..... But some people don't seem to know how else to discipline a child, and if they can't hit, they don't discipline, so little dears run wild.... -- "Mrs Redboots" http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/ Website updated 20 February 2005 |
Terror on the buses (Sidcup)
"Dave Arquati" Don't tarnish all youths with the same brush. How often do you read in the paper "a group of under-18s took the bus normally with no commotion"? Just because one bunch of idiots caused chaos doesn't mean that all teenagers are automatically guilty. I'll think you'll find that most teenagers today still actually know that mugging pensioners is wrong! If you re-read my part of this thread, I never mentioned "all youths", in fact, I took great pains not to. -- Cheers Roger T. Home of the Great Eastern Railway http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/ |
Terror on the buses (Sidcup)
"James Christie" I'd have a thought a sociopath would be absolutely ideal for the Army. Someone who's prepared to Kill and follow orders, with no conscience. Wasn't there a TV documentary on a few months back which gave the statistic that only a small percentage of soldiers in Big Mistake 2 actually shot (aimed) at the enemy, they couldn't bring themselves to do it. I recall, a few years ago, a similar program on this side of the pond. -- Cheers Roger T. Home of the Great Eastern Railway http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/ |
Terror on the buses (Sidcup)
Dave Arquati wrote:
James Christie wrote: Don't tarnish all youths with the same brush. How often do you read in the paper "a group of under-18s took the bus normally with no commotion"? Just because one bunch of idiots caused chaos doesn't mean that all teenagers are automatically guilty. I'll think you'll find that most teenagers today still actually know that mugging pensioners is wrong! You're absolutely right. I'm 30, and although I've seen an alarming rise in antisocial behaviour since I was a teenager, I've always firmly believed that only a very tiny minority are responsible for trouble. Where I live, we have problems, but 90+ % of schoolkids/young adults behave themselves pretty well, as did I and all my friends when I was younger. I firmly believe that people live up to the expectations people have of them. Teenagers who feel universally written off, and are treated like thugs, are more likely to act in an aggressive and antisocial manner. Don't lump them all in together. Treat the ones who deserve it with some respect. Lee |
Terror on the buses (Sidcup)
"Rich Mallard" wrote in message ... "Rich Mallard" wrote in message ... From: http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/ne..._the_buses.php Terror on the buses By Linda Piper [snip] When I saw this title I thought of that dire series I once saw an episode of on Granada Plus as it was then (or was it UK Gold) . Terror would be having to watch that series. Aaron |
Terror on the buses (Sidcup)
"James Christie" wrote in message ... In message net.com, Roger T. may have written... They are a product and reflection of our society and of their parents. They're not going to to be the offspring of wealthy, attentive parents, I wager, but the offspring of the those parents who couldn't give a damn (and have probably never talked to them nicely in their life). We need more information before we can draw any conclusions about how to deal with it... but actually catching the culprits would be a good start! It's societies fault. It's their parent's fault. It's the environment's fault. It's the school system's fault. It's everybody's and everything's bloody fault but it's not their fault. With attitudes like that, no wonder many kids are like they are. Funny, when we used to beat the crap outta kids who did this sort of thing, kids didn't do this sort of thing. I've a feeling that there's a correlation in there somewhere. -- Cheers Roger T. Home of the Great Eastern Railway http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/ I should think so Roger. When I was a lad (now theres a cliche!), I would never contemplate breaking windows, vandalism by way of graffiti, or mugging/attacking OAPs. As not only was I aware from a young that such a thing was inherently wrong, but I also knew that if I did, not only would I get a hiding from my father but I'd probably get one from the person I'd committed said act against! I mean, do all the people who make todays policy think that it was a total coincidence that when we had things like corporal punishment in schools, or getting 30 days in jail for stealing a bag of coal from the Pit, that these "barbaric" practices had nothing to do with the virtual absence of graffiti/vandilism etc? -- To be fair, I was never really beaten as a kid, and I've never done any of those things (my list of crimes so far has been: doing 85 on a motorway - though not looking at the speedo; buying child rate tickets while I still had a school uniform (up to 18); sticking a reduced label off a rotten box of fruit onto a decent box. I therefore dispute the assertion that the only way to teach kids not to do these thing is through beating. Aaron |
Terror on the buses (Sidcup)
"Rick Hughes" wrote in message ... "Roger T." wrote in landnet.com: Funny, when we used to beat the crap outta kids who did this sort of thing, kids didn't do this sort of thing. So, back in the good old days of social utopia, which kids did we 'beat the crap' out of, if kids didn't do 'this sort of thing'? Or did we use to beat the crap out of them all, just in case they might have otherwise become kids who did this sort of thing? Institutional physical abuse as a cure for society's ills... Not a particularly attractive society, IMHO. I also think that the antisocial photographers referred to in another thread would have been beaten at school - they were still being obnoxious. Aaron |
Terror on the buses (Sidcup)
In the message
oups.com... "grid58 (Paul)" wrote: Rich Mallard wrote: So that's 173 windows smashed at the weekend? What the hell is happening around here??? Seen the same in the West Midlands. On one occaision a bus was effectively demolished. This was witnessed by a number of other customers who wrere too afraid to do anything. Despite those on board camera's no-one ever seems to get punished or publicly made an example of. I suspect this maybe because the culprits are juveniles. How much damage will it take before our society takes notice of what is going on and stands up to it? Rather than trying to talk nicely to them, perhaps we should have regime where you get one chance. Do it again and off with your ******** or something. Well, the DFT seems to be concerned, as it has a section on : "Crime and Public Transport" on its Website, at URL: http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/group...rime_page.hcsp Regards, - Alan (in Brussels) |
Terror on the buses (Sidcup)
"James Christie" wrote in message ... In message , Aaron Borbora may have written... "James Christie" wrote in message ... In message net.com, Roger T. may have written... They are a product and reflection of our society and of their parents. They're not going to to be the offspring of wealthy, attentive parents, I wager, but the offspring of the those parents who couldn't give a damn (and have probably never talked to them nicely in their life). We need more information before we can draw any conclusions about how to deal with it... but actually catching the culprits would be a good start! It's societies fault. It's their parent's fault. It's the environment's fault. It's the school system's fault. It's everybody's and everything's bloody fault but it's not their fault. With attitudes like that, no wonder many kids are like they are. Funny, when we used to beat the crap outta kids who did this sort of thing, kids didn't do this sort of thing. I've a feeling that there's a correlation in there somewhere. -- Cheers Roger T. Home of the Great Eastern Railway http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/ I should think so Roger. When I was a lad (now theres a cliche!), I would never contemplate breaking windows, vandalism by way of graffiti, or mugging/attacking OAPs. As not only was I aware from a young that such a thing was inherently wrong, but I also knew that if I did, not only would I get a hiding from my father but I'd probably get one from the person I'd committed said act against! I mean, do all the people who make todays policy think that it was a total coincidence that when we had things like corporal punishment in schools, or getting 30 days in jail for stealing a bag of coal from the Pit, that these "barbaric" practices had nothing to do with the virtual absence of graffiti/vandilism etc? -- To be fair, I was never really beaten as a kid, and I've never done any of those things (my list of crimes so far has been: doing 85 on a motorway - though not looking at the speedo; buying child rate tickets while I still had a school uniform (up to 18); sticking a reduced label off a rotten box of fruit onto a decent box. I therefore dispute the assertion that the only way to teach kids not to do these thing is through beating. Aaron Its not just knowing you're going to get a slap of the belt on your hand, a skelp to your head etc. The parents seem to instill none of these values into the kids. Sure there are cases where kids ignore the parents, but that surely stems from the parents being lax discipline wise earlier in their childs upbringing. Although it may have been with the best of intentions it can easily backfire in years to come. I mean, if a child or teenager gets grounded now, do they care? With most kids (certainly round here) with broadband connected PCs, TVs, DVDs, PS2s, XBOX etc in their bedroom and almost all kids with their own mobile phones its no punishment whatsoever. And if a parent shouts at a kid, well do they take notice? Going by the behaviour of a lot of school pupils they'd probably tell them to **** off. I'd never dare swear at a teacher when I was in school, indeed I've never even swore in front of (never mind at) my parents even in my adult life. Don't get me wrong, I HATED getting smacked when I was a kid, and when I was 8 or so I swore I would never do it to any kids I'd have. It's only as you get older that you appreciate your parents did those things for a reason, a very good reason, and well it seemed to have worked out ok on me. So come on, all those who decry times past as barbarous, how do YOU account for the massive decline in social standards, where you cant walk on a street without their being litter, without seeing graffiti, where Pensioners feel too scared to walk the streets by day and don't even think about being out at night. If its not for the decline of traditional discipline, then why is it? -- Very interesting point, with which I mostly agree. Yes it is about instilling values, but I wonder how I and presumably others seem to have picked them up without getting hit (that's not to say I wasn't if I was really out of line). Perhaps I've just invalidated my own argument there - I'm not sure. It just seems that some people can learn hoe they are meant to behave without having to having to be beaten to learn. I do agree that parents should take some more responsibility, but if you have the situation where the kids tell the parents to f-off (I would have something unpleasant happen to me if I had done this, and still wont' say it around people older than me today) than what can the parents do? We have the situation where parents are going to prison because the kids truant and they seem to be unable to stop it. Not to mention pensions, I'm over 6' and still get nervous in the town centre in the evenings - I don't see why I should have to feel like this, but nothing seems to work. I can only see the situation get worse - when this lot have kids heaven help us all! The government are trying things like ASBOs, which don't seem to have worked very well. What can we do instead? I'm not sure, but would subjecting kids to whom violence has now become a way of life help matters? I'm not too sure, but then again could be wrong. The only problem of corporal punishment at school is that I'm not sure that I would trust some of old teachers to administer it fairly, and when I asked them about it a large number of teachers said they would never do it and found the idea abhorrent (and they had been caned at school). Perhaps what we need to tackle these problems is to give these kids a future. The country is moving more and more towards degrees for everybody and you needs GCSEs and A-levels to get a job and anything - yet many of those causing the trouble have no chance of getting these qualifications (however easy people say the exams are). In the past they would have been able to leave at 14/16 and go into productive work - now they are at a school which they hate, doing badly which knocks self-confidence and knowing that they will have a tough time to make something of themselves at the end of it all. If we had a decent vocational training programme then they could perhaps harness their energy into a more productive outflow. The government seems to have missed its chance to do this (exam reforms) and the current situation will not get any better. Sorry for the long and rambling post, it's the product of a brain overworked by adrenergic transmission, embryology, molecular DNA all in 1 day! Aaron |
Terror on the buses (Sidcup)
On Mon, 28 Feb 2005, James Christie wrote:
In message net.com, Roger T. may have written... They are a product and reflection of our society and of their parents. They're not going to to be the offspring of wealthy, attentive parents, I wager, but the offspring of the those parents who couldn't give a damn (and have probably never talked to them nicely in their life). We need more information before we can draw any conclusions about how to deal with it... but actually catching the culprits would be a good start! It's societies fault. It's their parent's fault. It's the environment's fault. It's the school system's fault. It's everybody's and everything's bloody fault but it's not their fault. With attitudes like that, no wonder many kids are like they are. Funny, when we used to beat the crap outta kids who did this sort of thing, kids didn't do this sort of thing. I've a feeling that there's a correlation in there somewhere. I should think so Roger. When I was a lad (now theres a cliche!), I would never contemplate breaking windows, vandalism by way of graffiti, or mugging/attacking OAPs. Same here. The thing is, i'm 24, so 'when i was a lad' was within the last decade. I mean, do all the people who make todays policy think that it was a total coincidence that when we had things like corporal punishment in schools, or getting 30 days in jail for stealing a bag of coal from the Pit, that these "barbaric" practices had nothing to do with the virtual absence of graffiti/vandilism etc? I don't believe that there was an absence of vandalism. Graffiti was perhaps less widespread, but i suspect that has more to do with the lack of readily-available spray paint. Old people such as yourself often bang on about how much better life was in the past, but every time i've seen this looked into objectively, it's turned out to be rose-tinted spectacles in action. tom -- skills to pay the bills! |
Terror on the buses (Sidcup)
On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 10:44:10 -0800, "Roger T."
wrote: Funny, when we used to beat the crap outta kids who did this sort of thing, kids didn't do this sort of thing. It must have been some time ago. This morning I was reading news reports about trains being attacked by stone throwers at Epsom - in 1905. -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
Terror on the buses (Sidcup)
On Mon, 28 Feb 2005, Aaron Borbora wrote:
"James Christie" wrote in message ... The parents seem to instill none of these values into the kids. Very interesting point, with which I mostly agree. Yes it is about instilling values, but I wonder how I and presumably others seem to have picked them up without getting hit And i wonder how so many kids who did get hit grew up into vicious psychopaths. I agree with both of you - the louts who are the cause of this problem are the way they are because they lack civilised moral values, and i would guess that's because their parents didn't instil them in them. Where i don't agree with James, but i think i do agree with Aaron, is that corporal punishment isn't the only way, or perhaps even a way at all, of instilling values. I think my parents taught me about right and wrong (before i got to reading Mill!), but the only sanction they ever used which really meant anything was their disapproval - they were the people i looked up to most when i was a child, so when i did something wrong in their eyes, i felt ashamed, and that's the stick that kept me away from doing evil (or at least, from doing evil and getting caught). As the pen is mightier than the sword, the paternal scowl is mightier than the wielded belt. If i'm right, then the root of the lout's lack of morality is that they don't respect their parents. Now, one person respects another because that person does something to inspire respect (it's not as if children do or should automatically respect their parents), so this lack of respect must be because the parents have failed to conduct themselves properly. Looking at the absolutely criminal standard of parenting i see in some people around me, this is not at all surprising. Indeed, i venture to suggest that a quick resort to violence, as James could be interpreted as suggesting, is an element of this bad parenting, and a contributing factor to the lack of respect. Perhaps what we need to tackle these problems is to give these kids a future. What are you, some sort of pinko commie liberal? Sorry for the long and rambling post, it's the product of a brain overworked by adrenergic transmission, embryology, molecular DNA all in 1 day! Good grief - not molecular DNA! :) tom -- skills to pay the bills! |
Terror on the buses (Sidcup)
"Aaron Borbora" typed
Sorry for the long and rambling post, it's the product of a brain overworked by adrenergic transmission, embryology, molecular DNA all in 1 day! A DAY! LOOOXURY! In my day, we touched on those subjects in a MORNING! -- Helen D. Vecht: Edgware. |
Terror on the buses (Sidcup)
Scripsit James Christie
I'd have a thought a sociopath would be absolutely ideal for the Army. Someone who's prepared to Kill and follow orders, with no conscience. A sociopath might be prepared to kill with no conscience. But why would he be inclined to follow orders? -- Henning Makholm "It was intended to compile from some approximation to the M-notation, but the M-notation was never fully defined, because representing LISP functions by LISP lists became the dominant programming language when the interpreter later became available." |
Terror on the buses (Sidcup)
On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 21:58:13 UTC, James Christie
wrote: : So come on, all those who decry times past as barbarous, how do YOU : account for the massive decline in social standards, where you cant walk : on a street without their being litter, without seeing graffiti, where : Pensioners feel too scared to walk the streets by day and don't even : think about being out at night. Sounds just like the Glasgow I was brought up in, thirty-plus years ago. And that was a lot better than it had been in the fifties. Ian -- |
Terror on the buses (Sidcup)
Tom Anderson wrote:
On Mon, 28 Feb 2005, Aaron Borbora wrote: Sorry for the long and rambling post, it's the product of a brain overworked by adrenergic transmission, embryology, molecular DNA all in 1 day! Good grief - not molecular DNA! :) Just wait till he learns about non-molecular DNA! :) -- Michael Hoffman |
Terror on the buses (Sidcup)
On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 10:44:10 -0800, "Roger T."
wrote: They are a product and reflection of our society and of their parents. They're not going to to be the offspring of wealthy, attentive parents, I wager, but the offspring of the those parents who couldn't give a damn (and have probably never talked to them nicely in their life). We need more information before we can draw any conclusions about how to deal with it... but actually catching the culprits would be a good start! It's societies fault. It's their parent's fault. It's the environment's fault. It's the school system's fault. It's everybody's and everything's bloody fault but it's not their fault. With attitudes like that, no wonder many kids are like they are. Funny, when we used to beat the crap outta kids who did this sort of thing, kids didn't do this sort of thing. I've a feeling that there's a correlation in there somewhere. You should try reading some contemporary reports from the 1940s, both during and after WW2. Vandalism and hooliganism did miraculously appear some time in the 1980s. -- Nick Cooper [Carefully remove the detonators from my e-mail address to reply!] The London Underground at War: http://www.cwgcuser.org.uk/personal/...ra/lu/tuaw.htm 625-Online - classic British television: http://www.625.org.uk 'Things to Come' - An Incomplete Classic: http://www.thingstocome.org.uk |
Terror on the buses (Sidcup)
..
Surely these acts of vandalism and violence already demean the civilised society you refer to. The tables have turned - instead the criminals inflict pain on us now. That's a great solution! I think a fair number can or could get caught however it would seem but we have no effective punishment or deterrent from doing it again. |
Terror on the buses (Sidcup)
Nick Cooper wrote:
On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 10:44:10 -0800, "Roger T." wrote: They are a product and reflection of our society and of their parents. They're not going to to be the offspring of wealthy, attentive parents, I wager, but the offspring of the those parents who couldn't give a damn (and have probably never talked to them nicely in their life). We need more information before we can draw any conclusions about how to deal with it... but actually catching the culprits would be a good start! It's societies fault. It's their parent's fault. It's the environment's fault. It's the school system's fault. It's everybody's and everything's bloody fault but it's not their fault. With attitudes like that, no wonder many kids are like they are. Funny, when we used to beat the crap outta kids who did this sort of thing, kids didn't do this sort of thing. I've a feeling that there's a correlation in there somewhere. You should try reading some contemporary reports from the 1940s, both during and after WW2. Vandalism and hooliganism did miraculously appear some time in the 1980s. I expect there's a NOT missing from your last paragraph. I'm old enough to remember Teddy-Boys ripping up seats in the local cinema.... and later, of course the sea-side battles between Mods and Rockers. -- Kat |
Terror on the buses (Sidcup)
Helen Deborah Vecht wrote to uk.transport.london on Mon, 28 Feb 2005:
"Aaron Borbora" typed Sorry for the long and rambling post, it's the product of a brain overworked by adrenergic transmission, embryology, molecular DNA all in 1 day! A DAY! LOOOXURY! In my day, we touched on those subjects in a MORNING! A MORNING? You don't know you're born... in MY day, we had to get it done before breakfast, AND go for a six-mile run.... -- "Mrs Redboots" http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/ Website updated 20 February 2005 |
Terror on the buses (Sidcup)
On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 10:30:09 UTC, James Christie
wrote: : That's a rather sweeping and misleading generalisation. The population : of my area has actually gone down over the past few decades, and is : still going down, yet there is a massive rate of vandalism. How can you : explain that? People moving out because of the vandalism? Ian -- |
Terror on the buses (Sidcup)
Upon the miasma of midnight, a darkling spirit identified as Chris
Tolley breathed: On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 17:40:54 +0000, James Christie wrote: send the little *******s off to the Army. I always wondered about the logic of that. Here's a sociopath, what shall we do with him? Ah, the perfect thing, put a rifle in his hand. The purpose of armed forces is, under disciplined conditions, to kill people and destroy things, so it is in fact a reasonable solution, as long as the army has the facilities (and lack of rights-obsessed restraints) to do the job of training and disciplining them properly. People who say we shouldn't in any way punish wrongdoers are, IMHO, a major part of the problem. Convicted criminal should have all their human rights suspended for the duration of their sentences. Rights come with responsibilities, and those who abdicate their responsibilities should also lose their rights. The reasons yobs chuck bricks and wreck things isn't because they have mental issues, it's because destroying things, especially other people's things, with little risk of capture and even less of punishment, is a fun way to spend a few hours. Most people get their fix of such stuff watching movies of playing games, but with no restraint of discipline or responsibility, some act it out for real. -- - Pyromancer. - http://www.inkubus-sukkubus.co.uk -- Pagan Gothic Rock! - http://www.littlematchgirl.co.uk -- Electronic Metal! - http://www.revival.stormshadow.com -- The Gothic Revival. |
Terror on the buses (Sidcup)
Dave Arquati wrote:
Don't tarnish all youths with the same brush. How often do you read in the paper "a group of under-18s took the bus normally with no commotion"? Just because one bunch of idiots caused chaos doesn't mean that all teenagers are automatically guilty. I'll think you'll find that most teenagers today still actually know that mugging pensioners is wrong! Personally, I blame tabloid newspapers. Tony |
Terror on the buses (Sidcup)
Kat wrote:
Nick Cooper wrote: On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 10:44:10 -0800, "Roger T." wrote: You should try reading some contemporary reports from the 1940s, both during and after WW2. Vandalism and hooliganism did miraculously appear some time in the 1980s. I expect there's a NOT missing from your last paragraph. I'm old enough to remember Teddy-Boys ripping up seats in the local cinema.... and later, of course the sea-side battles between Mods and Rockers. Don't forget the "peaky blinders", a term used to describe members of gangs of young, single males in late nineteenth century Birmingham. Similarly, Manchester had its scuttlers and London its hooligans. Legend has it that gang members stitched razor blades into the peaks of their caps which were then used as offensive weapons, and this is just one account amongst many of how the name originated. During the Victorian and Edwardian periods many references were made by court reporters to men having the appearance of a 'peaky'. Reports from the same period state that foul-mouthed peakies often roamed the streets of Birmingham in drunken gangs, insulting and mugging passers-by. -- Bruce Fletcher (To reply replace figure 1 with letter i) Stronsay, Orkney, UK http://www.stronsay.co.uk/claremont Growing old is mandatory. Growing up is optional. |
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