1) The number of people who want to travel late on a Friday & Saturday
night
is *much* greater than those who want to travel early on Saturday and
Sunday
morning, so it's for the greater good. The number of people cramming on
to
last trains out of the West End at the moment, compared to those using
first
trains on Saturday & Sunday, is evidence enough.

I assume you've not travelled on early morning trains on those days or
attempted to get across London to or from Heathrow airport with luggage.
There are a lot of people who rely on early morning trains at the
weekend. I accept it will be less than those who would use a later
finishing tube service but I'm not convinced by the run the tubes later
argument.


I quite agree. On occasions when I have had need to use the tube early at
the weekend to start a longer journey (to Heathrow or to catch a long
distance train somewhere) I have been surprised how many people are using
the tube, nearly all workers with some other longer distance travellers
thrown in.

More important than the numbers, though, is the quality of the alternative.
These early journeys are being made by people who have little alternative
than to travel at those times, because they have to get to work (generally
the low paid) or catch a train/plane at a certain time. Although people can
change jobs or travel the day before, clearly this is quite a burden and
will not always be possible. Without the tube, these journeys would be very
difficult; they are coming from and going to diverse areas, not all of which
have a night bus (we used to live in Dagenham, a few mins from the tube but
half an hour walk to a night bus). Critically, night buses are infrequent
and can't be relied upon to arive on time and to get you somewhere at a
certain time. As these journeys are generally time-critical, or people
wouldn't be up and about making them, the night bus does not cater nearly so
well as the tube for these workers.

People coming out of the West End at 1am are generally merry, and are going
home. If you have been out on the town and are going home, the whole night
bus network is centred around your needs, taking you from the West End to
all over London. If you're making an odd journey home and it doesn't matter
how long it takes, that irregular journey time or half an hour walk at the
other end doesn't matter too much. Quite a different kettle of fish if you
have to walk that far just to get a bus to work.

I should say that I am more likely to use a later tube than to use the first
hour of service, but on those less regular early journeys it is very
important to me that the journey is fast and reliable. When I am going home
late by night bus I don't really mind how long it takes.

On a separate point, anyone who saw the expose of the LU night maintenance
workers will know that it is quite possible to get much more work done on
the night shift if people actually do some work; a friend working for one of
the infracos (no of course I won't say which/where!) went on a night shift a
few months ago and was staggered that the entire shift was made up of people
with no concept of a work ethic and whose stated challenge when at work was
to see just how little they could do and get away with it. If these idlers
actually had some real supervision you could easily have a shorter overnight
engineering period and get the same level of maintenance done, keeping your
revellers and early workers happy.

Tony

On Sat, 5 Mar 2005 11:26:24 -0000, "Tony Wilson" a@a wrote:

More important than the numbers, though, is the quality of the alternative.
These early journeys are being made by people who have little alternative
than to travel at those times, because they have to get to work (generally
the low paid) or catch a train/plane at a certain time. Although people can
change jobs or travel the day before, clearly this is quite a burden and
will not always be possible. Without the tube, these journeys would be very
difficult; they are coming from and going to diverse areas, not all of which
have a night bus (we used to live in Dagenham, a few mins from the tube but
half an hour walk to a night bus). Critically, night buses are infrequent
and can't be relied upon to arive on time and to get you somewhere at a
certain time. As these journeys are generally time-critical, or people
wouldn't be up and about making them, the night bus does not cater nearly so
well as the tube for these workers.

I think the above sums up the difference in journey types very well.

On a separate point, anyone who saw the expose of the LU night maintenance
workers will know that it is quite possible to get much more work done on
the night shift if people actually do some work; a friend working for one of
the infracos (no of course I won't say which/where!) went on a night shift a
few months ago and was staggered that the entire shift was made up of people
with no concept of a work ethic and whose stated challenge when at work was
to see just how little they could do and get away with it. If these idlers
actually had some real supervision you could easily have a shorter overnight
engineering period and get the same level of maintenance done, keeping your
revellers and early workers happy.

While you are correct in your comments I think you'll find that pressure
is being applied to the workshy workers you refer to. The Infracos
simply cannot deliver what they have to do and reduce their costs unless
they deal with the efficiency (or lack thereof) of night time
maintenance activity.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Dave Liney wrote:

"Dave Arquati" wrote in message
...
wrote:

How do people currently required to start around 0600-0630 get to work on
Sunday mornings? I suspect night bus hours will be shifted to compensate
for the loss of the Tube; as for them being a viable alternative, they
seem to manage out to the suburbs every night of the week. However, the
demand is much higher at 0100 than 0600, so letting the Tube take the
strain seems like a sensible proposal.

Considering the inebriated state of some people at 1am you might not want
them trying to decend escalators and then minding the gap to board the tube.
They may also struggle to get from the kerb on to a bus but at least they'll
do themselves less damage if they miss there.

Speaking from the sharp end (as it were) I think later running is a
terrible idea. We cope with enough drunks on a Friday and Saturday night
as it is.
We'll have even more kids jumping the barriers while people with valid
tickets who just want to get to work on time the following morning, will
be penalised.
Even now, Sunday mornings, with our first westbound Central Line train
not arriving until 07.15 when the station opens just after 06.25 isn't
much fun either.
--
Kat

On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 14:18:50 +0000, Kat wrote:

Dave Liney wrote:

"Dave Arquati" wrote in message
...
wrote:

How do people currently required to start around 0600-0630 get to work on
Sunday mornings? I suspect night bus hours will be shifted to compensate
for the loss of the Tube; as for them being a viable alternative, they
seem to manage out to the suburbs every night of the week. However, the
demand is much higher at 0100 than 0600, so letting the Tube take the
strain seems like a sensible proposal.

Considering the inebriated state of some people at 1am you might not want
them trying to decend escalators and then minding the gap to board the tube.
They may also struggle to get from the kerb on to a bus but at least they'll
do themselves less damage if they miss there.

Speaking from the sharp end (as it were) I think later running is a
terrible idea. We cope with enough drunks on a Friday and Saturday night
as it is.

My sympathies.

We'll have even more kids jumping the barriers while people with valid
tickets who just want to get to work on time the following morning, will
be penalised.

Slightly OT, but if people saw sober people getting challenged for jumping
barriers or using child tickets during the day time, then the sense of
injustice that emboldens them to jump after a few lagers may be reduced.

Even now, Sunday mornings, with our first westbound Central Line train
not arriving until 07.15 when the station opens just after 06.25 isn't
much fun either.

?????

On Sun, 6 Mar 2005 14:18:50 +0000, Kat
wrote:


We'll have even more kids jumping the barriers while people with valid
tickets who just want to get to work on time the following morning, will
be penalised.
Even now, Sunday mornings, with our first westbound Central Line train
not arriving until 07.15 when the station opens just after 06.25 isn't
much fun either.


At least Ken is consulting.

Shagger and Simon Hughes were hell-bent on a similar scheme and I
can't see them consulting....


Rob.
--
rob at robertwoolley dot co dot uk

On Mon, 07 Mar 2005 20:49:58 +0000, Robert Woolley
wrote:

On Sun, 6 Mar 2005 14:18:50 +0000, Kat
wrote:


We'll have even more kids jumping the barriers while people with valid
tickets who just want to get to work on time the following morning, will
be penalised.
Even now, Sunday mornings, with our first westbound Central Line train
not arriving until 07.15 when the station opens just after 06.25 isn't
much fun either.


At least Ken is consulting.

Ken consulting reminds me of Dogbert' definiton of consulting. (A cross
between a con and insulting you).

Shagger and Simon Hughes were hell-bent on a similar scheme and I
can't see them consulting....

Neither is in a position to do so, as you well know.

Why is that the this is always presented as a balance between:

People out on the town late on Friday/Saturday night

vs.

People who start work early on Saturday/Sunday morning

What about the large number of people who finish work between 12:30am
and 1:30am? Most restaurant workers, many workers in
theatres/cinemas/bars? Why do they never come in to the equation?

Jase

Kat wrote:
Dave Liney wrote:

"Dave Arquati" wrote in message
...
wrote:

Considering the inebriated state of some people at 1am you might not
want
them trying to decend escalators and then minding the gap to board
the tube.
They may also struggle to get from the kerb on to a bus but at least
they'll
do themselves less damage if they miss there.

Speaking from the sharp end (as it were) I think later running is a
terrible idea. We cope with enough drunks on a Friday and Saturday
night
as it is.
We'll have even more kids jumping the barriers while people with
valid
tickets who just want to get to work on time the following morning,
will
be penalised.
Even now, Sunday mornings, with our first westbound Central Line
train
not arriving until 07.15 when the station opens just after 06.25
isn't
much fun either.
--
Kat

wrote in message
ups.com...
Why is that the this is always presented as a balance between:

People out on the town late on Friday/Saturday night

vs.

People who start work early on Saturday/Sunday morning

What about the large number of people who finish work between 12:30am
and 1:30am? Most restaurant workers, many workers in
theatres/cinemas/bars? Why do they never come in to the equation?


This is a very good point - these are workers too after all, probably just
as badly paid and with options that are just as limited as the people who
make the journey to work first thing in the morning.

If the number of workers is about the same, surely the side-effect of
ferrying the hordes of revellers home efficiently is an argument in favour
of later running?

xx j

wrote in
ups.com:

...

What about the large number of people who finish work between 12:30am
and 1:30am? Most restaurant workers, many workers in
theatres/cinemas/bars? Why do they never come in to the equation?

Jase


I suspect many will simply find themselves working an extra hour and still
miss their last tubes home....

David

On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 16:13:20 -0800, bowroadu wrote:

Guess what? Tuesday's "Peoples' Question Time" at New Cross took a vote
on later running of the Undrground on Fridays and Saturdays and no
surprise there was around a 65% majority in favour. BUT, at no time was
the consequential later start by one hour on Sat & Sun mornings
mentioned (apart from one shouted voice from the audience). How many
other "world cities" have to "rob peter to pay paul" in order to get a
proper late night train service, and how much longer are the PPP
infracos going to hold London's commuters to ransom? (30 years I guess.)

With tubes stating an hour later in the morning at weekend I'd have to get
a car to get to work on time. Once I buy a car and tax and insure it,
there is little reason for me to continue traveling via train in the week.
--
Everything I write here is my personal opinion, and should not be taken as fact.