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Later Tubes on Fri & Sat
Guess what? Tuesday's "Peoples' Question Time" at New Cross took a vote
on later running of the Undrground on Fridays and Saturdays and no surprise there was around a 65% majority in favour. BUT, at no time was the consequential later start by one hour on Sat & Sun mornings mentioned (apart from one shouted voice from the audience). How many other "world cities" have to "rob peter to pay paul" in order to get a proper late night train service, and how much longer are the PPP infracos going to hold London's commuters to ransom? (30 years I guess.) |
Later Tubes on Fri & Sat
wrote in message oups.com... Guess what? Tuesday's "Peoples' Question Time" at New Cross took a vote on later running of the Undrground on Fridays and Saturdays and no surprise there was around a 65% majority in favour. BUT, at no time was the consequential later start by one hour on Sat & Sun mornings mentioned (apart from one shouted voice from the audience). How many other "world cities" have to "rob peter to pay paul" in order to get a proper late night train service, and how much longer are the PPP infracos going to hold London's commuters to ransom? (30 years I guess.) I see that people want ever more tube services for ever longer time periods, but the reality is that a certain number of hours are needed for maintenance. Whilst it would be marvellous to have service both later and a earlier, people will have to accept that this is having your cake and eating it. My concern is that TfL are not being more open about this. Michael |
Later Tubes on Fri & Sat
Imagine a 7.30 Saturday start and getting a start-up like yesterday
morning. I can't wait for London retailers getting stuck into Ken Livingstone over that one. Kevin |
Later Tubes on Fri & Sat
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Later Tubes on Fri & Sat
"Dave Arquati" wrote in message ... wrote: Guess what? Tuesday's "Peoples' Question Time" at New Cross took a vote on later running of the Undrground on Fridays and Saturdays and no surprise there was around a 65% majority in favour. BUT, at no time was the consequential later start by one hour on Sat & Sun mornings mentioned (apart from one shouted voice from the audience). How many other "world cities" have to "rob peter to pay paul" in order to get a proper late night train service, and how much longer are the PPP infracos going to hold London's commuters to ransom? (30 years I guess.) From where I was sitting, the vote question was very clearly worded - it said would you support the Tube finishing an hour later on Fridays and Saturdays but starting an hour later on Saturdays and Sundays. They couldn't have been much clearer about it. -- Dave Arquati Imperial College, SW7 www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London It is a logical decision to me. 1) The number of people who want to travel late on a Friday & Saturday night is *much* greater than those who want to travel early on Saturday and Sunday morning, so it's for the greater good. The number of people cramming on to last trains out of the West End at the moment, compared to those using first trains on Saturday & Sunday, is evidence enough. 2) Road traffic before 7.30am on Saturday, and before 8.30am on Sunday is about as light as it gets, so the difference in journey time between bus and tube is minimised (particularly if some express buses are laid on to compensate for the lack of tube). 3) The tube will still be working in good time for the majority of Saturday & Sunday users. Shop workers in stores with regular weekend opening hours (9am start Saturday, 10 or 11am start Sunday) will not be affected. Some jobs where shift changes are based around tube times could move the shift change by an hour if necessary. Colin |
Later Tubes on Fri & Sat
Well, clearly the full question *wasn't* heard clearly where I and a
colleague were sitting (L/H at rear), since we both reached the same assumption that the full implications weren't mentioned. How are people required to start around 0700-0730 going to get to work on Sunday mornings? Frankly, employers are not going to be interested in how they get there and despite ken's exhortation that "buses are getting better" they are *not* a viable alternative for people living in the suburbs. As for the Infracos holding London to ransom, even if I don't think Livingstone a particular good example to quote, I'll settle for Christian Wolmar, Simon Jenkins and Peter Ford to start with. Also, the Infracos moaned like hell recently when LU cancelled 'engineering hours' to allow sleet trains to run, despite heavy snow being forecast. Clearly, it was better for them to carry out maintenance work at night on lines, and risk no service operating in the morning, and then pay the penalty charges (capped after a certain time), instead of postponing such activities and ensure lines were kept ice-free for passenger trains. |
Later Tubes on Fri & Sat
wrote:
Well, clearly the full question *wasn't* heard clearly where I and a colleague were sitting (L/H at rear), since we both reached the same assumption that the full implications weren't mentioned. The question was clearly worded on the screen. The person reading it out may have faffed around a little - I was reading rather than listening to him. I accept that some people in the audience may have been relying on hearing rather than looking, but for the majority who could see the screen, the question was clear. How are people required to start around 0700-0730 going to get to work on Sunday mornings? Frankly, employers are not going to be interested in how they get there and despite ken's exhortation that "buses are getting better" they are *not* a viable alternative for people living in the suburbs. How do people currently required to start around 0600-0630 get to work on Sunday mornings? I suspect night bus hours will be shifted to compensate for the loss of the Tube; as for them being a viable alternative, they seem to manage out to the suburbs every night of the week. However, the demand is much higher at 0100 than 0600, so letting the Tube take the strain seems like a sensible proposal. As for the Infracos holding London to ransom, even if I don't think Livingstone a particular good example to quote, I'll settle for Christian Wolmar, Simon Jenkins and Peter Ford to start with. Also, the Infracos moaned like hell recently when LU cancelled 'engineering hours' to allow sleet trains to run, despite heavy snow being forecast. Clearly, it was better for them to carry out maintenance work at night on lines, and risk no service operating in the morning, and then pay the penalty charges (capped after a certain time), instead of postponing such activities and ensure lines were kept ice-free for passenger trains. Engineering time would still be required regardless of whether we had infracos or not. Whether infracos are inefficient or poor value is a completely different discussion. -- Dave Arquati Imperial College, SW7 www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London |
Later Tubes on Fri & Sat
"Dave Arquati" wrote in message ... wrote: How do people currently required to start around 0600-0630 get to work on Sunday mornings? I suspect night bus hours will be shifted to compensate for the loss of the Tube; as for them being a viable alternative, they seem to manage out to the suburbs every night of the week. However, the demand is much higher at 0100 than 0600, so letting the Tube take the strain seems like a sensible proposal. Considering the inebriated state of some people at 1am you might not want them trying to decend escalators and then minding the gap to board the tube. They may also struggle to get from the kerb on to a bus but at least they'll do themselves less damage if they miss there. Dave |
Later Tubes on Fri & Sat
On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 22:36:42 -0000, "Colin"
wrote: It is a logical decision to me. 1) The number of people who want to travel late on a Friday & Saturday night is *much* greater than those who want to travel early on Saturday and Sunday morning, so it's for the greater good. The number of people cramming on to last trains out of the West End at the moment, compared to those using first trains on Saturday & Sunday, is evidence enough. I assume you've not travelled on early morning trains on those days or attempted to get across London to or from Heathrow airport with luggage. There are a lot of people who rely on early morning trains at the weekend. I accept it will be less than those who would use a later finishing tube service but I'm not convinced by the run the tubes later argument. 2) Road traffic before 7.30am on Saturday, and before 8.30am on Sunday is about as light as it gets, so the difference in journey time between bus and tube is minimised (particularly if some express buses are laid on to compensate for the lack of tube). But there has been no mention of any compensatory bus services being provided. As TfL have no money to improve normal bus services beyond current standards, even where there is a proven need, then I fail to see where extra express buses are going to come from. Anyway if there is a big enough demand to sustain express buses surely it's better to run the Tube ? 3) The tube will still be working in good time for the majority of Saturday & Sunday users. Shop workers in stores with regular weekend opening hours (9am start Saturday, 10 or 11am start Sunday) will not be affected. Some jobs where shift changes are based around tube times could move the shift change by an hour if necessary. People work in lots of other parts of commerce / public sector than shops. The whole city has a level of activity that requires people to be able to get to their places of employment - often hours before any public opening times. I take it that hospitals, police stations and a whole range of essential service personnel will be given their own personal transport to get them to work? -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
Later Tubes on Fri & Sat
1) The number of people who want to travel late on a Friday & Saturday
night is *much* greater than those who want to travel early on Saturday and Sunday morning, so it's for the greater good. The number of people cramming on to last trains out of the West End at the moment, compared to those using first trains on Saturday & Sunday, is evidence enough. I assume you've not travelled on early morning trains on those days or attempted to get across London to or from Heathrow airport with luggage. There are a lot of people who rely on early morning trains at the weekend. I accept it will be less than those who would use a later finishing tube service but I'm not convinced by the run the tubes later argument. I quite agree. On occasions when I have had need to use the tube early at the weekend to start a longer journey (to Heathrow or to catch a long distance train somewhere) I have been surprised how many people are using the tube, nearly all workers with some other longer distance travellers thrown in. More important than the numbers, though, is the quality of the alternative. These early journeys are being made by people who have little alternative than to travel at those times, because they have to get to work (generally the low paid) or catch a train/plane at a certain time. Although people can change jobs or travel the day before, clearly this is quite a burden and will not always be possible. Without the tube, these journeys would be very difficult; they are coming from and going to diverse areas, not all of which have a night bus (we used to live in Dagenham, a few mins from the tube but half an hour walk to a night bus). Critically, night buses are infrequent and can't be relied upon to arive on time and to get you somewhere at a certain time. As these journeys are generally time-critical, or people wouldn't be up and about making them, the night bus does not cater nearly so well as the tube for these workers. People coming out of the West End at 1am are generally merry, and are going home. If you have been out on the town and are going home, the whole night bus network is centred around your needs, taking you from the West End to all over London. If you're making an odd journey home and it doesn't matter how long it takes, that irregular journey time or half an hour walk at the other end doesn't matter too much. Quite a different kettle of fish if you have to walk that far just to get a bus to work. I should say that I am more likely to use a later tube than to use the first hour of service, but on those less regular early journeys it is very important to me that the journey is fast and reliable. When I am going home late by night bus I don't really mind how long it takes. On a separate point, anyone who saw the expose of the LU night maintenance workers will know that it is quite possible to get much more work done on the night shift if people actually do some work; a friend working for one of the infracos (no of course I won't say which/where!) went on a night shift a few months ago and was staggered that the entire shift was made up of people with no concept of a work ethic and whose stated challenge when at work was to see just how little they could do and get away with it. If these idlers actually had some real supervision you could easily have a shorter overnight engineering period and get the same level of maintenance done, keeping your revellers and early workers happy. Tony |
Later Tubes on Fri & Sat
On Sat, 5 Mar 2005 11:26:24 -0000, "Tony Wilson" a@a wrote:
More important than the numbers, though, is the quality of the alternative. These early journeys are being made by people who have little alternative than to travel at those times, because they have to get to work (generally the low paid) or catch a train/plane at a certain time. Although people can change jobs or travel the day before, clearly this is quite a burden and will not always be possible. Without the tube, these journeys would be very difficult; they are coming from and going to diverse areas, not all of which have a night bus (we used to live in Dagenham, a few mins from the tube but half an hour walk to a night bus). Critically, night buses are infrequent and can't be relied upon to arive on time and to get you somewhere at a certain time. As these journeys are generally time-critical, or people wouldn't be up and about making them, the night bus does not cater nearly so well as the tube for these workers. I think the above sums up the difference in journey types very well. On a separate point, anyone who saw the expose of the LU night maintenance workers will know that it is quite possible to get much more work done on the night shift if people actually do some work; a friend working for one of the infracos (no of course I won't say which/where!) went on a night shift a few months ago and was staggered that the entire shift was made up of people with no concept of a work ethic and whose stated challenge when at work was to see just how little they could do and get away with it. If these idlers actually had some real supervision you could easily have a shorter overnight engineering period and get the same level of maintenance done, keeping your revellers and early workers happy. While you are correct in your comments I think you'll find that pressure is being applied to the workshy workers you refer to. The Infracos simply cannot deliver what they have to do and reduce their costs unless they deal with the efficiency (or lack thereof) of night time maintenance activity. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
Later Tubes on Fri & Sat
Dave Liney wrote:
"Dave Arquati" wrote in message ... wrote: How do people currently required to start around 0600-0630 get to work on Sunday mornings? I suspect night bus hours will be shifted to compensate for the loss of the Tube; as for them being a viable alternative, they seem to manage out to the suburbs every night of the week. However, the demand is much higher at 0100 than 0600, so letting the Tube take the strain seems like a sensible proposal. Considering the inebriated state of some people at 1am you might not want them trying to decend escalators and then minding the gap to board the tube. They may also struggle to get from the kerb on to a bus but at least they'll do themselves less damage if they miss there. Speaking from the sharp end (as it were) I think later running is a terrible idea. We cope with enough drunks on a Friday and Saturday night as it is. We'll have even more kids jumping the barriers while people with valid tickets who just want to get to work on time the following morning, will be penalised. Even now, Sunday mornings, with our first westbound Central Line train not arriving until 07.15 when the station opens just after 06.25 isn't much fun either. -- Kat |
Later Tubes on Fri & Sat
On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 14:18:50 +0000, Kat wrote:
Dave Liney wrote: "Dave Arquati" wrote in message ... wrote: How do people currently required to start around 0600-0630 get to work on Sunday mornings? I suspect night bus hours will be shifted to compensate for the loss of the Tube; as for them being a viable alternative, they seem to manage out to the suburbs every night of the week. However, the demand is much higher at 0100 than 0600, so letting the Tube take the strain seems like a sensible proposal. Considering the inebriated state of some people at 1am you might not want them trying to decend escalators and then minding the gap to board the tube. They may also struggle to get from the kerb on to a bus but at least they'll do themselves less damage if they miss there. Speaking from the sharp end (as it were) I think later running is a terrible idea. We cope with enough drunks on a Friday and Saturday night as it is. My sympathies. We'll have even more kids jumping the barriers while people with valid tickets who just want to get to work on time the following morning, will be penalised. Slightly OT, but if people saw sober people getting challenged for jumping barriers or using child tickets during the day time, then the sense of injustice that emboldens them to jump after a few lagers may be reduced. Even now, Sunday mornings, with our first westbound Central Line train not arriving until 07.15 when the station opens just after 06.25 isn't much fun either. ????? |
Later Tubes on Fri & Sat
On Sun, 6 Mar 2005 14:18:50 +0000, Kat
wrote: We'll have even more kids jumping the barriers while people with valid tickets who just want to get to work on time the following morning, will be penalised. Even now, Sunday mornings, with our first westbound Central Line train not arriving until 07.15 when the station opens just after 06.25 isn't much fun either. At least Ken is consulting. Shagger and Simon Hughes were hell-bent on a similar scheme and I can't see them consulting.... Rob. -- rob at robertwoolley dot co dot uk |
Later Tubes on Fri & Sat
On Mon, 07 Mar 2005 20:49:58 +0000, Robert Woolley
wrote: On Sun, 6 Mar 2005 14:18:50 +0000, Kat wrote: We'll have even more kids jumping the barriers while people with valid tickets who just want to get to work on time the following morning, will be penalised. Even now, Sunday mornings, with our first westbound Central Line train not arriving until 07.15 when the station opens just after 06.25 isn't much fun either. At least Ken is consulting. Ken consulting reminds me of Dogbert' definiton of consulting. (A cross between a con and insulting you). Shagger and Simon Hughes were hell-bent on a similar scheme and I can't see them consulting.... Neither is in a position to do so, as you well know. |
Later Tubes on Fri & Sat
Why is that the this is always presented as a balance between:
People out on the town late on Friday/Saturday night vs. People who start work early on Saturday/Sunday morning What about the large number of people who finish work between 12:30am and 1:30am? Most restaurant workers, many workers in theatres/cinemas/bars? Why do they never come in to the equation? Jase Kat wrote: Dave Liney wrote: "Dave Arquati" wrote in message ... wrote: Considering the inebriated state of some people at 1am you might not want them trying to decend escalators and then minding the gap to board the tube. They may also struggle to get from the kerb on to a bus but at least they'll do themselves less damage if they miss there. Speaking from the sharp end (as it were) I think later running is a terrible idea. We cope with enough drunks on a Friday and Saturday night as it is. We'll have even more kids jumping the barriers while people with valid tickets who just want to get to work on time the following morning, will be penalised. Even now, Sunday mornings, with our first westbound Central Line train not arriving until 07.15 when the station opens just after 06.25 isn't much fun either. -- Kat |
Later Tubes on Fri & Sat
wrote in message ups.com... Why is that the this is always presented as a balance between: People out on the town late on Friday/Saturday night vs. People who start work early on Saturday/Sunday morning What about the large number of people who finish work between 12:30am and 1:30am? Most restaurant workers, many workers in theatres/cinemas/bars? Why do they never come in to the equation? This is a very good point - these are workers too after all, probably just as badly paid and with options that are just as limited as the people who make the journey to work first thing in the morning. If the number of workers is about the same, surely the side-effect of ferrying the hordes of revellers home efficiently is an argument in favour of later running? xx j |
Later Tubes on Fri & Sat
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Later Tubes on Fri & Sat
On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 16:13:20 -0800, bowroadu wrote:
Guess what? Tuesday's "Peoples' Question Time" at New Cross took a vote on later running of the Undrground on Fridays and Saturdays and no surprise there was around a 65% majority in favour. BUT, at no time was the consequential later start by one hour on Sat & Sun mornings mentioned (apart from one shouted voice from the audience). How many other "world cities" have to "rob peter to pay paul" in order to get a proper late night train service, and how much longer are the PPP infracos going to hold London's commuters to ransom? (30 years I guess.) With tubes stating an hour later in the morning at weekend I'd have to get a car to get to work on time. Once I buy a car and tax and insure it, there is little reason for me to continue traveling via train in the week. -- Everything I write here is my personal opinion, and should not be taken as fact. |
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