Southern doors problem
 

I have several relatives who have, at different times, been on the new
Southern trains (on the Brighton/Portsmouth line) when all the doors have
stuck.

Is this a common problem? Is the cause known but too expensive to sort? Has
anyone addressed the issue of what could result if it coincided with a fire?

Southern doors problem
 

"Vernon" wrote in message
...
I have several relatives who have, at different times, been on the new
Southern trains (on the Brighton/Portsmouth line) when all the doors have
stuck.

Is this a common problem? Is the cause known but too expensive to sort?
Has
anyone addressed the issue of what could result if it coincided with a
fire?

Doors have been a recurring problem with what are termed "plug-type" doors
since they were first introduced at the beginning of the 1990s. It's
generally to do with getting the pressure correct on all the door sets so
that the door, when closed, sucks in to the bodyside and is held there, so
that the door interlock (central door locking) can be activated by the
driver or guard to secure the train.

The doors can appear to be set correctly when on a depot or works but once
the train is subjected to curving and reverse curving, banking etc. the
bodysides can flex very slightly - but enough to throw out the door
adjustments. Similarly, when stopping on slightly banked tracks in stations
the "throw" of the train can upset the delicate adjustment.

Generally, after a period in traffic, the doors have been adjusted and
readjusted until they are at their optimum setting. The Electrostar trains
are still being introduced on Southern services, several new units per week,
and are still going through their shakedown period in service. From
experience with all other units over the past fifteen years it is to be
expected that the majority of the problems will gradually disappear,
although occasional problems with individual door sets still occasionally
occur. There should be no safety inplications in the case of fire - the
problems are most often with securing the doors, rather than releasing them.
There is a manual override for freeing the doors, in addition to the
emergency door releases in each vestibule.

Southern doors problem
 

"Jack Taylor" wrote in message
...

There should be no safety inplications in the case of fire - the
problems are most often with securing the doors, rather than releasing
them.
There is a manual override for freeing the doors, in addition to the
emergency door releases in each vestibule.


The problems to which I am referring have all related to opening.

The latest of which I am aware occured about 0800 on Saturday morning at
Gatwick when a London bound train was stuck for nearly half and hour before
being withdrawn from service.

The report I had from someone who was on it was that it took staff about ten
minutes just to get the doors open hence my concern about fire safety.

Southern doors problem
 

The fundamental problem is that South Central (I refuse to insult the
British Railways operator by using the new name) does not trust its
train crews and door releases have to be done by GPS and not a human
being. This adds an unnessecary element to go wrong.

When the driver presses door release the train has to be certain its
where it is meant to be before a release will occur. If it dont know
where it is you have to hope the driver can get an emergency release,
if he cannot get one of those then its waiting time.

Take the GPS out and put it back to the guard/driver to open the doors
and YAHTZEE you have less door related problems.

In my opinion a case of being too complicated and therefore shooting
itself in the foot!

Southern doors problem
 

wrote in message
oups.com...
The fundamental problem is that South Central (I refuse to insult the
British Railways operator by using the new name) does not trust its
train crews and door releases have to be done by GPS and not a human
being. This adds an unnessecary element to go wrong.

When the driver presses door release the train has to be certain its
where it is meant to be before a release will occur. If it dont know
where it is you have to hope the driver can get an emergency release,
if he cannot get one of those then its waiting time.

Take the GPS out and put it back to the guard/driver to open the doors
and YAHTZEE you have less door related problems.

In my opinion a case of being too complicated and therefore shooting
itself in the foot!

Sounds like a likely scenario because apparently the on-board "next station"
display was showing Ford as it was approaching Gatwick which suggests that
the GPS had really got itself screwed up..

Southern doors problem
 

The fundamental problem is that South Central (I refuse to insult the
British Railways operator by using the new name) does not trust its
train crews and door releases have to be done by GPS and not a human
being. This adds an unnessecary element to go wrong.

Sounds about right. Technology for its own sake and solutions looking
for problems are everywhere these days thanks to suppliers chucking in
as much as they can to the design make as much money as they can
and dim witted customers falling for it. I guess railways are no
exception.

B2003

Southern doors problem
 

They seemed to have overlooked the 'human being' factor. SWT dont need
any fancy GPS door opening on their DESIROs and so I dont see why it
should needed on Electrostars.

As I said before the 377s are decent enough trains but they do not need
half the fancy computer stuff on them and a little faith in the
traincrews to do their job would have solved a lot of problems.

Southern doors problem
 

generally to do with getting the pressure correct on all the door sets
so
that the door, when closed, sucks in to the bodyside and is held
there, so
that the door interlock (central door locking) can be activated by the

driver or guard to secure the train.

I think I'm missing the problem here. Why can't the doors just have
more
than enough pressure to close them, then theres no problem whether the
train is flexing, banking or upside down. Why do they have to have the
exact amount?

B2003

Southern doors problem
 

Boltar wrote:
I think I'm missing the problem here. Why can't the doors just have
more
than enough pressure to close them,

Ahhh. Would that explain the loud bang everytime the SWT Desiros close
the doors?

Southern doors problem
 

Vernon wrote:
The report I had from someone who was on it was that it took staff
about ten
minutes just to get the doors open hence my concern about fire
safety.

There is a way to open a specific door instantly (by using the door
emergency open button / lever) as explained in the safety notices which
are now on all trains. It's worrying to hear that you haven't noticed
and familiarised yourself with the poster because it could well save
your life.

The staff on the train taking 10 minutes were quite probably trying to
open all doors at the same time (to prevent a crush) and to not have to
use the emergency releases (because the train would then be stuck in
the platform until fixed)

Southern doors problem
 

Southern doors problem and the CIS as well!!
 

Serious issues seem to repeatedly arise on the Arun Valley's notably:

Last carriage(s) refusing to open at Victoria (especially in on platform 19)
Ununusually long delays between stopping at Vic and then actually opening
the doors.
The GPS system quite often seems to refuse the existence of Redhill (down
side) mind you if I had my way, I would want to block Redhill from
exsistence as well!!

And then there is the farce of the on board CIS (Customer Information
System) system:

Swanick seems never to be recognised as having been passed through and
continues to say 'The next station is Swanick' all the way to Soton or
Fareham!
The station stops on the Arun Valley's are frequently either in the wrong
direction ('We are now arrving at London Victoria...' when you are heading
south through Arundel!!) or alternatively the wrong stops displayed (Redhill
and Horley usually).

I note that there are a few Conductors who just get fed up with the system
and after a few stations just turn it off!! (To those I say thank you!!!!)

Another irritation is the seemingly total lack of abililty by Southern to
show destination detail on splitters. South Eastern manage to achieve it
with coach numbers stated for individual coaches, on Southern however chaos
seems to reign. It is most odd going to Bognor Regis on a train that until
Haywards Heath claims it is going to Hastings and any of the innumerable of
dopey (read dumb) tourists on the line must end up in the most obscure of
places!!

Rant over - except can they please shut that irritating announcer lady up or
turn her volume down, some of us in the front coach are trying to get some
shut eye you know!!

Regards
John M Upton

My Fotopic Collections:
South Central/Southern, Model Railway & Other Rail Pictures:
http://gallery39764.fotopic.net/

Bus Pics:
http://gallery42239.fotopic.net/

Southern doors problem
 

"Chris!" wrote in message
oups.com...

Vernon wrote:
The report I had from someone who was on it was that it took staff
about ten
minutes just to get the doors open hence my concern about fire
safety.

There is a way to open a specific door instantly (by using the door
emergency open button / lever) as explained in the safety notices which
are now on all trains. It's worrying to hear that you haven't noticed
and familiarised yourself with the poster because it could well save
your life.

As I say, it was a close relation who was on the train, not me. I will
mention that for future reference.

The staff on the train taking 10 minutes were quite probably trying to
open all doors at the same time (to prevent a crush) and to not have to
use the emergency releases (because the train would then be stuck in
the platform until fixed)

The train did eventually end up stuck - and taken out of service.

Southern doors problem and the CIS as well!!
 

JMUpton2000 wrote:
Serious issues seem to repeatedly arise on the Arun Valley's notably:

Last carriage(s) refusing to open at Victoria (especially in on
platform 19)
Ununusually long delays between stopping at Vic and then actually
opening
the doors.
The GPS system quite often seems to refuse the existence of Redhill
(down
side) mind you if I had my way, I would want to block Redhill from
exsistence as well!!

The delay at Vic of approx 20 secs is because the train cannot get a
GPS signal and the driver has to do it all manually!

And then there is the farce of the on board CIS (Customer Information
System) system:

To give it the correct title P.I.S - which it takes quite a lot!!

Swanick seems never to be recognised as having been passed through
and
continues to say 'The next station is Swanick' all the way to Soton
or
Fareham!
The station stops on the Arun Valley's are frequently either in the
wrong
direction ('We are now arrving at London Victoria...' when you are
heading
south through Arundel!!) or alternatively the wrong stops displayed
(Redhill
and Horley usually).

Wrong stops can be due to driver mistyping the PIS code into MITRAC or
being given the wrong code.

I note that there are a few Conductors who just get fed up with the
system
and after a few stations just turn it off!! (To those I say thank
you!!!!)

Don;t thank us, we can't do it! The driver is the only one who can turn
it off. All we can do is put up the information messages and make PAs.

Another irritation is the seemingly total lack of abililty by
Southern to
show destination detail on splitters. South Eastern manage to
achieve it
with coach numbers stated for individual coaches, on Southern however
chaos
seems to reign. It is most odd going to Bognor Regis on a train that
until
Haywards Heath claims it is going to Hastings and any of the
innumerable of
dopey (read dumb) tourists on the line must end up in the most
obscure of
places!!

Lack of detail, and lack of ability to properly split!! On SWT the
guard can make announcements to the whole train, Front 4, Middle 4, or
Rear 4. We can only announce to the whole train!

Rant over - except can they please shut that irritating announcer
lady up or
turn her volume down, some of us in the front coach are trying to get
some
shut eye you know!!

The ping pongs have been moaned about so many times now! All we need is
'We are now approaching xxxx' This train is the 'xxxx' service your
next station is 'xxxx', the scrolls are fine as you can choose whether
or not to pay attention to them, but listing all calling points at
every stop is madness!

Southern doors problem and the CIS as well!!
 

Conductor in Charge of.......... wrote:
JMUpton2000 wrote:

Serious issues seem to repeatedly arise on the Arun Valley's notably:

Last carriage(s) refusing to open at Victoria (especially in on

platform 19)

Ununusually long delays between stopping at Vic and then actually

opening

the doors.
The GPS system quite often seems to refuse the existence of Redhill

(down

side) mind you if I had my way, I would want to block Redhill from
exsistence as well!!


The delay at Vic of approx 20 secs is because the train cannot get a
GPS signal and the driver has to do it all manually!



I've noticed the delay at Victoria has been shorter this week - has
anything changed or is it just my luck/imagination?


The ping pongs have been moaned about so many times now! All we need is
'We are now approaching xxxx' This train is the 'xxxx' service your
next station is 'xxxx', the scrolls are fine as you can choose whether
or not to pay attention to them, but listing all calling points at
every stop is madness!


I was on tenterhooks last week - I was late for a flight and was
travelling on a 377 from Clapham Junction to Gatwick which kept
announcing "bing bong the next station is London Victoria". Something
was clearly wrong with the unit as an entire (rather animated)
conversation between the driver and guard was broadcast inadvertantly
across the PA system in my coach (at least), culminating in a decision
to fail the service at East Croydon due to the PA not working at all in
the coach the guard was in. Thankfully, it was soon discovered the PA
worked (too well!) in the rest of the train and the service carried on,
with the "quiet" coach locked out.

Fair play to the train crew though - the announcements the public _were_
supposed to hear were otherwise excellent.

Southern doors problem and the CIS as well!!
 

conversation between the driver and guard was broadcast inadvertantly
across the PA system in my coach (at least), culminating in a decision

to fail the service at East Croydon due to the PA not working at all
in

How can anyone seriously consider failing a train and turfing out a few
hundred passengers just because the PA isn't working??! Most people
don't listen to it anyway!

B2003

Southern doors problem and the CIS as well!!
 

"Boltar" wrote in message
ups.com...

How can anyone seriously consider failing a train and turfing out a few
hundred passengers just because the PA isn't working??! Most people
don't listen to it anyway!

Blame our good friends at Health & Safety and the Disability Discrimination
Act. Farcical, isn't it?

Southern doors problem and the CIS as well!!
 

On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 09:43:16 GMT, Jack Taylor wrote:

Disability Discrimination Act. Farcical, isn't it?

No.

--
http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p13277469.html
(Demolition in progress at London Broad Street station, Aug 1985)

Southern doors problem and the CIS as well!!
 

"Chris Tolley" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 09:43:16 GMT, Jack Taylor wrote:

Disability Discrimination Act. Farcical, isn't it?

No.

Yes it is when a much larger majority of people are inconvenienced on their
journey on the spurious excuse that a disabled person *may* want to travel
and *may* be disadvantaged if PIS or PA systems are out of action. The
responsible and sensible thing to do is to allow the train to continue until
such point as a replacement set can be found to take over the diagram, not
to take the set out of service at the first opportunity. Anyone who thinks
otherwise must be a cretin.

Southern doors problem and the CIS as well!!
 

Jack Taylor wrote:
"Chris Tolley" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 09:43:16 GMT, Jack Taylor wrote:

Disability Discrimination Act. Farcical, isn't it?

No.

Yes it is when a much larger majority of people are inconvenienced on
their
journey on the spurious excuse that a disabled person *may* want to
travel
and *may* be disadvantaged if PIS or PA systems are out of action.
The

If the train needed to be evacuated it would be helpful to be able to
announce that to all the passengers... Not just to disabled passengers

responsible and sensible thing to do is to allow the train to
continue until
such point as a replacement set can be found to take over the
diagram, not
to take the set out of service at the first opportunity. Anyone who
thinks
otherwise must be a cretin.

Why have all the hassle of finding a replacement set... getting it out
without delaying other services but whilst the current set is
operating. What's wrong with getting off at East Croydon and getting
on the next service which stops at Gatiwck Airport? They are pretty
frequent, aren't they?

Southern doors problem and the CIS as well!!
 

If the train needed to be evacuated it would be helpful to be able to
announce that to all the passengers... Not just to disabled
passengers

The guard is quite capable of going down the train.

operating. What's wrong with getting off at East Croydon and getting
on the next service which stops at Gatiwck Airport? They are pretty
frequent, aren't they?

Ever tried to get a full train load of passengers + luggage into an
already
full train in the rush hour (or anytime for that matter)?

B2003

Southern doors problem and the CIS as well!!
 

Un snip:
Jack taylor wrote:
Yes it is when a much larger majority of people are inconvenienced on
their
journey on the spurious excuse that a disabled person *may* want to
travel
and *may* be disadvantaged if PIS or PA systems are out of action.
The
responsible and sensible thing to do is to allow the train to
continue until
such point as a replacement set can be found to take over the
diagram, not
to take the set out of service at the first opportunity. Anyone who
thinks
otherwise must be a cretin.


Boltar wrote:
If the train needed to be evacuated it would be helpful to be able
to
announce that to all the passengers... Not just to disabled
passengers

The guard is quite capable of going down the train.

operating. What's wrong with getting off at East Croydon and
getting
on the next service which stops at Gatiwck Airport? They are pretty
frequent, aren't they?

Ever tried to get a full train load of passengers + luggage into an
already
full train in the rush hour (or anytime for that matter)?

B2003

A lot of people get off at East Croydon!

Also, I was responding to the point that there should be a spare set
sent out and saying how it doesn't sound like it will help if the
service is frequent anyway. Sending out a spare set or not, you will
still have people transfering between the two trains and I fail to see
how you can prevent people getting on to the new train that didn't get
off the old one.

Southern doors problem and the CIS as well!!
 

Steve M wrote:
I've noticed the delay at Victoria has been shorter this week - has
anything changed or is it just my luck/imagination?

I have also noticed this. Still longer than a slammer or 455 though.
Not heard anything official about this but it seems to be nearer to
15-20 seconds.

Southern doors problem and the CIS as well!!
 

On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 12:04:12 GMT, Jack Taylor wrote:
"Chris Tolley" wrote in message
On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 09:43:16 GMT, Jack Taylor wrote:
Disability Discrimination Act. Farcical, isn't it?
No.
Yes it is ... Anyone who thinks otherwise must be a cretin.

Well, it really is hard to take seriously someone's argument when they
load it with such abuse, but nevertheless I shall give you the courtesy
you seem disinclined to extend to others. The systems of the train are
there for everyone's benefit. If any system which has been specified as
part of the design as safety critical is defective, then by definition
the train falls below the minimum standard required to be in service.

Investigation of many of the worst railway accidents has made it clear
that people with opinions such as yours who have made their own personal
assessment that this or that safety system is unimportant have either
actually caused the accidents or made their consequences much worse.

Southern doors problem and the CIS as well!!
 

And a lot of people get on at East Croydon too.

The simple solution is not to take the train out of service unless
theres an obvious safety or mechanical fault. As far as I can see a
broken PA doesn't fall into either category.

B2003

Southern doors problem and the CIS as well!!
 

Well, it really is hard to take seriously someone's argument when they

load it with such abuse, but nevertheless I shall give you the
courtesy

To be honest I find it hard to take seriously all these tin pot
pressure
groups that seem to sprout up like weeds everywhere these days. Now
the disability taliban have managed to it into the rules that all new
train
toilets have to be wheelchair friendly. Great. So now some train
companies
have built trains without any toilets. How exactly has this helped
anyone?
No doubt the rule about PA systems was put in by some other bed wetting
pen pusher at the HSE under pressure from some left wing do gooder.
The amount of money spent on all the extra facilities for the disabled
would
have been far better spent just providing them with taxis as and when
they
needed them.

you seem disinclined to extend to others. The systems of the train are

there for everyone's benefit. If any system which has been specified
as

Thats a myth. Public transport is there for the benefit of the
majority. Some
people simply can't use it , eg , people in remote villages,
quadraplegics etc.
Unfortunate tho this may be , ultimately its just tough luck and if
public
transport had to deal with every whinger with a special travel
requirement it
would grind to a halt pdq and no one would be able to use it. Life
isn't fair. Deal.

B2003

Southern doors problem and the CIS as well!!
 

Boltar wrote:
To be honest I find it hard to take seriously all these tin pot
pressure
groups that seem to sprout up like weeds everywhere these days. Now
the disability taliban have managed to it into the rules that all new
train
toilets have to be wheelchair friendly. Great. So now some train
companies
have built trains without any toilets. How exactly has this helped
anyone?

Really? The only trains in the UK I have ever been on which don't have
toilets are those ones with the rubber door buttons (like the ones
which used to do the Hounslow loop) and tube trains.

Southern doors problem and the CIS as well!!
 

On 21 Apr 2005 08:11:09 -0700, Boltar wrote:

To be honest I find it hard to take seriously all these tin pot
pressure groups that seem to sprout up like weeds everywhere these
days. Now the disability taliban have managed to it into the rules
that all new train toilets have to be wheelchair friendly. Great. So
now some train companies have built trains without any toilets. How
exactly has this helped anyone? No doubt the rule about PA systems
was put in by some other bed wetting pen pusher at the HSE under
pressure from some left wing do gooder. The amount of money spent on
all the extra facilities for the disabled would have been far better
spent just providing them with taxis as and when they needed them.

You really ought to see someone about all this anger you are carrying
around. If you keep on getting this agitated about these wheelchair
facilities, you may end up having a stroke. And needing them yourself.

Southern doors problem and the CIS as well!!
 

On 21 Apr 2005 08:11:09 -0700, Boltar wrote:
The systems of the train are there for everyone's benefit.
Thats a myth.
What is? It helps when answering to read what I wrote.

Public transport is there for the benefit of the majority.
Well, it's there for "the public" - er, the name rather gives that away.

Some people simply can't use it ... ultimately its just tough luck and
if public transport had to deal with every whinger with a special
travel requirement it would grind to a halt pdq
Like I said, the systems are there for everyone. If signs are made
clearer for someone who is visually impaired to read, then *I* gain too.
If PA systems are good enough for someone with a hearing defect to
understand, then *I* understand what is said too. If there is enough
circulation space inside trains for wheelchairs, then *I* don't have to
climb all over someone to pass them, nor they me. And so on. You've
proved you can moan. Maybe in future you could prove you can think.

Southern doors problem and the CIS as well!!
 

In article . com,
Boltar wrote:
To be honest I find it hard to take seriously all these tin pot
pressure
groups that seem to sprout up like weeds everywhere these days. Now
the disability taliban have managed to it into the rules that all new
train
toilets have to be wheelchair friendly. Great. So now some train
companies
have built trains without any toilets. How exactly has this helped
anyone?

I suspect that those two facts aren't as related as you seem to
think; if I were a TOC running a short-hop service (eg: Silverlink's
NLL and Goblin services) where most passengers are on the train for
less than hald an hour tend to be on the train for half an hour or
so, then I would rather have a couple of seats than a toilet.

--
Mike Bristow - really a very good driver

Southern doors problem and the CIS as well!!
 

Like I said, the systems are there for everyone. If signs are made
clearer for someone who is visually impaired to read, then *I* gain
too.

Why? Unless you're have bad eye sight too.

If PA systems are good enough for someone with a hearing defect to
understand, then *I* understand what is said too. If there is enough
circulation space inside trains for wheelchairs, then *I* don't have
to

And where do you think this space comes from? You think trains are
like the Tardis? More space = less or something else. Usually seats.
Not much fun if you some poor sod who has to stand in a crowded
train.

climb all over someone to pass them, nor they me. And so on. You've
proved you can moan. Maybe in future you could prove you can think.

Had to be there, the standard issue lefty response to anyone daring to
challenge some aspect of political correctness. Go listen to some whale
song and knit yourself a yoghurt you sap.

B2003

Southern doors problem and the CIS as well!!
 

On 22 Apr 2005 06:06:57 -0700, Boltar wrote:
If signs are made clearer, then *I* gain too.
Why? Unless you're have bad eye sight too.
Well, for a start, if the print is bigger, I don't need to be as close
to it to read it, and I am less likely to misread it (which is a
possibility for someone even with perfect eyesight).

You think trains are like the Tardis?
No. I recommend you reach judgments based on comparison with reality.

Had to be there, the standard issue lefty response to anyone daring to
challenge some aspect of political correctness.
You aren't challenging political correctness. *That* might be worthy.
You are complaining about design choices and displaying a lack of logic.

--
http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p12028680.html
(Bubble car 960 021 in Railtrack livery (mostly!) at Aylesbury in 2004)

Southern doors problem and the CIS as well!!
 

Chris! wrote to uk.transport.london on Wed, 20 Apr 2005:

If the train needed to be evacuated it would be helpful to be able to
announce that to all the passengers... Not just to disabled passengers

Helpful, yes - but surely not vital? It is only within the last few
years that PA on trains has become commonplace - in my childhood and
young adulthood, it was unknown.
--
"Mrs Redboots"
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 3 April 2005

Southern doors problem and the CIS as well!!
 

No. I recommend you reach judgments based on comparison with reality.

The reality being something other than the trains I travel on everyday
perhaps?
Which reality are we talking about here? The reality where wheelchairs
space
can be squeezed into a train and it not effecting anything else?
Because as far
as I can see having a wheelchair spot means some seats go missing.
Unless
in the world you exist in this doesn't happen.

You aren't challenging political correctness. *That* might be worthy.
You are complaining about design choices and displaying a lack of
logic.

I'm saying that accomodating every single minority group on public
transport
isn't practical or feasible or a good way to spend money. Presumably
you
think it makes perfect sense to do so no matter what the cost or
inconvenience
to the majority.

B2003

Southern doors problem and the CIS as well!!
 

Boltar wrote:
Because as far
as I can see having a wheelchair spot means some seats go missing.
Unless
in the world you exist in this doesn't happen.


Having a wheelchair spot means there are less seats and a large gap.
During the peak time it is better to have fewer seats because more
standing passengers can crush into the new open space and wheelchair
users (just like people with big shopping bags) are likely to avoid
travelling at rush hour.

Southern doors problem and the CIS as well!!
 

Mrs Redboots wrote:
Chris! wrote to uk.transport.london on Wed, 20 Apr 2005:

If the train needed to be evacuated it would be helpful to be able
to
announce that to all the passengers... Not just to disabled
passengers

Helpful, yes - but surely not vital?

They must have thought it was vital when writing the policies otherwise
they wouldn't have considered taking the train out of sevice.

I can't really imagine it being acceptable (nowdays) for a train to
break down, completely packed, and the guard having to relay messages
by shouting down the carriage and getting the people that can hear him
to shout to those further down.

--
Chris

Southern doors problem and the CIS as well!!
 

Boltar wrote:
Now the disability taliban have managed

What is the diability taliban? I don't remember any blind, deaf or
wheelchair bound suicide bombers...

Southern doors problem and the CIS as well!!
 

In message , Jack Taylor
writes

"Chris Tolley" wrote in message
. ..
On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 09:43:16 GMT, Jack Taylor wrote:

Disability Discrimination Act. Farcical, isn't it?

No.

Yes it is when a much larger majority of people are inconvenienced on their
journey on the spurious excuse that a disabled person *may* want to travel
and *may* be disadvantaged if PIS or PA systems are out of action. The
responsible and sensible thing to do is to allow the train to continue until
such point as a replacement set can be found to take over the diagram, not
to take the set out of service at the first opportunity.

As someone who is visually impaired (and therefore someone for whom
these rules are supposed to be a benefit) I'd have to agree.
I'd much rather have a train with no PA and put up with that fact, than
no train at all. After all, disabled people aren't necessarily stupid
and will find another way of getting the information. Contrary to
popular belief, the British public aren't all *******s, and a polite
request to a fellow passenger to tell you which station or let you know
when you've reached X will often do the job (and unlike some
auto-announcers, you might actually get the right answer).

However, this shouldn't be an excuse for letting a train go for weeks
without fixing the PA, obviously it should be fixed as soon as
practically possible without disrupting the service.
--
Spyke
Address is valid, but messages are treated as junk. Replace the bit before the
@ with 'daniel' to get through. The opinions expressed in this post do not
necessarily reflect those of the educational institution from which I post.

Southern doors problem and the CIS as well!!
 

On 22 Apr 2005 08:36:08 -0700, Boltar wrote:
having a wheelchair spot means some seats go missing.
Let's see. On a Mark 3 coach, the wheelchair spot means two seats are
taken out, the table size is reduced, and one of the seats is replaced
by a tip-up. Net loss *one* seat (out of 76). Gain - extra space for
wheelchair or pushchair or luggage or several standing people.

I'm saying that accomodating every single minority group on public
transport isn't practical or feasible or a good way to spend money.
Presumably you think it makes perfect sense to do so no matter what
the cost or inconvenience to the majority.
I'm not making any argument on behalf of minorities. As I have already
said, the things you find so distasteful, I find to be a benefit to me.
This is what I mean about you not thinking. Your prejudice blinds you
not only to the possibilities, but also as shown above to the realities.
--
http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p9683900.html (Class 206 Tadpole unit)

Southern doors problem and the CIS as well!!
 

In article , Spyke
writes
I'd much rather have a train with no PA and put up with that fact, than
no train at all.
[...]
However, this shouldn't be an excuse for letting a train go for weeks
without fixing the PA, obviously it should be fixed as soon as
practically possible without disrupting the service.

The trouble is that if nobody gets into trouble for running a train with
a broken PA, there's no incentive to fix it for weeks.

The answer has to be in finding the right setting for "as soon as
practically possible". I'm not saying that the present rules are
correct, but I also suspect that writing better ones is hard.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
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