On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 12:54:51 GMT, "Bob Wood" wrote:

Yes, he did. And I apologise for not understanding what he had written
correctly before criticising what he had written.

I think I read the comma as a semi-colon and missed the 'that' in the second
part of the sentence.

I made the same mistake, but fortunately, for some reason I checked.

It's always a problem with the 'chinese whisper' type of environment you get
with this sort of discussion.

"Jack Taylor" wrote in message
...

"Neil Williams" wrote in message
...

It doesn't take a quarter of the coach, either. It takes about 2 bays
(or 5-6 one-side rows of airlines) which is quite a bit less.

We weren't discussing the size of the disabled toilet - we were discussing
the area taken up by the disabled toilet, the seating reserved for
wheelchair passengers and their companions and for bicycle stowage, which
is
the entire area between one vestibule and the corridor connection at the
end
of the vehicle.

On the SET 375s one of the seats in this area is labelled for the use of the
conductor. Compare this with the space (two-fifths of a coach) originally
provided in 4VEPs for the guard and the van which, after it stopped being
used for mail and parcels, was reserved for wheelchair passengers, and their
companions who had to stand, and bicycle stowage. It was probably a minority
of services on which a bicycle was actually conveyed, let alone more
bicycles than can be stowed in a 375, and the wheelchair passengers in a
4VEP had no access to a toilet.

Peter

On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 23:43:38 GMT, "Jack Taylor"
wrote:

We weren't discussing the size of the disabled toilet - we were discussing
the area taken up by the disabled toilet, the seating reserved for
wheelchair passengers and their companions and for bicycle stowage, which is
the entire area between one vestibule and the corridor connection at the end
of the vehicle.

The seating is not "reserved for wheelchair passengers and their
companions". Anyone may sit there, but should be fair to disabled
passengers who can't safely position themselves elsewhere by moving in
the rare event that such a passenger does board.

Assuming the Electrostar layout is the same as the Turbostar, the
space concerned consists of two seats facing two tip-up seats with a
movable table, with two and a bike space on the other side. The
density is not substantially more generous than elsewhere (though it
is slightly). Thus, it is not really fair to say that an entire third
(or quarter, or whatever) is completely given over to that function.

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 13:02:13 +0100, Colin McKenzie
wrote:

The bike and wheelchair space should, of course, be flexible, with
tip-up seats.

In the Turbo- and Electrostar, or certainly all the versions of said
units I've come across, it *is*.

That said, there is a major benefit in *not* having flexible space, as
my experience is that people sitting on tip-up seats are reluctant to
move for a bicycle, so it ends up wedged in the vestibule anyway. In
the event that the train is busy and there is no bicycle on board,
there is more standing room. If it isn't busy, there's probably
enough seats anyway.

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 17:05:54 GMT, (Neil Williams)
wrote:

The seating is not "reserved for wheelchair passengers and their
companions". Anyone may sit there, but should be fair to disabled
passengers who can't safely position themselves elsewhere by moving in
the rare event that such a passenger does board.

Interestingly, although I'm a regular rail user, I've *never* seen anyone with a
wheel chair use a train.

And yet millions have been spent just in case one should ever want to.

Neil Williams wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 13:02:13 +0100, Colin McKenzie
wrote:

The bike and wheelchair space should, of course, be flexible, with
tip-up seats.

In the Turbo- and Electrostar, or certainly all the versions of said
units I've come across, it *is*.

That said, there is a major benefit in *not* having flexible space, as
my experience is that people sitting on tip-up seats are reluctant to
move for a bicycle, so it ends up wedged in the vestibule anyway. In
the event that the train is busy and there is no bicycle on board,
there is more standing room. If it isn't busy, there's probably
enough seats anyway.

You obviously have a different view of flexible space. My view is
something more along th elines of that in the Oslo airport train
(Flytoget) where the flexible use space is not seated. but is an empty
space. For wheelchair users there could be a pair of flip down seats at
the door end of the space, provide 'bum rest' style seats which will be
above the height of chains etc., and then you have a space that copes
with pushchairs, suitcases, bicycles, tandems, wheelcharis, stuffed
hippos etc. and can be used to take more passengers during rush hour
than traditional seated accommodation.

...d

Steven wrote:

Interestingly, although I'm a regular rail user, I've *never* seen anyone
with a
wheel chair use a train.

And yet millions have been spent just in case one should ever want to.

I have a few times at Clapham Juncttion and occasionally on long distance
routes. But at the moment frankly a lot of stations are utterly inaccessible
for wheelchair users, leaving only a few combinations of routes viable. Even
the stations that are good at allowing a wheelchair user to make it onto the
platform from the street then let the side down by not having the platform
at roll-on level.

I recall a leaflet from either Railtrack or one of the South London TOCs
from a decade ago about wheelchair users which was full of obstacles - from
what it seemed the wheelchairs used by about 2/3 of wheelchair users would
not be allowed for one reason or another. Staff are not able to put chairs
on and off trains - fair enough but they equally seem unable to use the
portable ramps issued to most stations. For all the central effort to make
the railways accessible and DDA compliant, a lot of staff on the ground are
not aiding that - similar to the way a lot of London bus drivers seem unable
to learn how to operate the ramps.

On 19 Jun 2005 11:02:18 -0700, "David Martin"
wrote:

You obviously have a different view of flexible space.

Sounds like I do; the typical British variant tends to include seats,
which in practice is not always a benefit.

I liked Merseyrail's approach pre-refurb, where they simply removed 4
seats from a pair of bays making a very wide bay, and fixed a
horizontal handrail in the middle. This space could then be used for
whatever was required. All that needed to be added was a bit of fixed
shock cord for holding bikes in place.

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

Steven wrote:

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 17:05:54 GMT, (Neil Williams)
wrote:

The seating is not "reserved for wheelchair passengers and their
companions". Anyone may sit there, but should be fair to disabled
passengers who can't safely position themselves elsewhere by moving in
the rare event that such a passenger does board.

Interestingly, although I'm a regular rail user, I've *never* seen anyone with a
wheel chair use a train.

Out of three journeys in the last wek my bike has shared a vestibule
area with a wheelchair user - on a train that has no designated disabled areas.

John B

Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:

For all the central effort to make
the railways accessible and DDA compliant, a lot of staff on the ground are
not aiding that...

All too often there are no staff anyway.
For example at Micheldever (a station I use a fair amount) there are no
staff after about 9-ish and all the trains stop at an island platform.
There is no access other than the stepped subway.

My own local station has no staff after 12.50 and the upline has no
access. the only way for a wheelchair user to get off the station is to
go several stations up the line then return.

Pathetic.

John B