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Buggies are wheelchairs!
On a bus this afternoon, I was sitting on one of the jump-seats in the
wheelchair area. A girl with a buggy got on and glared at me until I got up and gave her my place. The signage clearly says that the space is for wheelchairs - since when have Big Mac-chomping, income support-claiming chav slappers with wailing brats require the same level of concern as people in wheelchairs? Ian -- |
Buggies are wheelchairs!
On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 16:02:44 +0100, "Ian F."
wrote: On a bus this afternoon, I was sitting on one of the jump-seats in the wheelchair area. A girl with a buggy got on and glared at me until I got up and gave her my place. At least you were only glared at. I've been bashed into, had my feet run over and witnessed all out warfare being buggy toting mothers. The signage clearly says that the space is for wheelchairs - since when have Big Mac-chomping, income support-claiming chav slappers with wailing brats require the same level of concern as people in wheelchairs? Since they became too lazy to fold them down and buggies developed 4x4 syndrome and turned into Hummers for toddlers. It would not surprise me if mothers refused to move or fold their buggies if a wheelchair passenger actually wanted to use the allocated space. I hate the bloody things - they are a curse and are a safety risk if too many are allowed on board. I hate to think what would happen if people needed to escape from the rear of a bus when there were 3 buggies jamming the aisle and centre doors. Wonder if TfL Buses have done that risk assessment exercise? -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
Buggies are wheelchairs!
"Paul Corfield" wrote in message ... On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 16:02:44 +0100, "Ian F." wrote: On a bus this afternoon, I was sitting on one of the jump-seats in the wheelchair area. A girl with a buggy got on and glared at me until I got up and gave her my place. At least you were only glared at. I've been bashed into, had my feet run over and witnessed all out warfare being buggy toting mothers. The signage clearly says that the space is for wheelchairs - since when have Big Mac-chomping, income support-claiming chav slappers with wailing brats require the same level of concern as people in wheelchairs? Since they became too lazy to fold them down and buggies developed 4x4 syndrome and turned into Hummers for toddlers. It would not surprise me if mothers refused to move or fold their buggies if a wheelchair passenger actually wanted to use the allocated space. I hate the bloody things - they are a curse and are a safety risk if too many are allowed on board. I hate to think what would happen if people needed to escape from the rear of a bus when there were 3 buggies jamming the aisle and centre doors. Wonder if TfL Buses have done that risk assessment exercise? -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! They should do what they do in some countries and hang the buggies at the front of the bus. (together with the parent!) ;-) A. |
Buggies are wheelchairs!
Ian F. ) gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying : On a bus this afternoon, I was sitting on one of the jump-seats in the wheelchair area. A girl with a buggy got on and glared at me Lucky you... until I got up and gave her my place. Why? |
Buggies are wheelchairs!
"Adrian" wrote in message . 244.170... Ian F. ) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying : On a bus this afternoon, I was sitting on one of the jump-seats in the wheelchair area. A girl with a buggy got on and glared at me Lucky you... until I got up and gave her my place. Why? In Blackpool a notice has been placed on the buses stating how many wheelchairs and/or buggies can be carried at one time. Great! Management passing the buck and putting the onus on the driver to sort it out once again! Wheelchairs should have priority over any sort of baby carriage. Most of the young mothers look to me like a short walk would do them good anyway. In reply to A. - why should the buggy been hung on the front? Hang the parent for sure, but the buggies done nothing wrong! Dave G |
Buggies are wheelchairs!
Here in Dublin the Rule is One Wheelchair OR in its absence ONE Occupied
buggy. ALL others MUST fold and stow. I am of the belief that this new category of Bus User is in fact becoming responsible for a further decline in the numbers of "Ordinaries" using Buses...... |
Buggies are wheelchairs!
"Alek" wrote in message ... Here in Dublin the Rule is One Wheelchair OR in its absence ONE Occupied buggy. ALL others MUST fold and stow. I am of the belief that this new category of Bus User is in fact becoming responsible for a further decline in the numbers of "Ordinaries" using Buses...... Yes, I think I must agree with you there, sadly! Dave G |
Buggies are wheelchairs!
Paul Corfield wrote:
At least you were only glared at. I've been bashed into, had my feet run over and witnessed all out warfare being buggy toting mothers. Of course I'm sure you're just lovely, but trying to maneouvre buggies and/or a small child on buses (whether tha stroller is collapsed or not) would be a great deal easier if some passengers weren't a load of inconsiderate ******s. If your experience of buggies and mothers has made you hostile, think about what their experience is. You're just got to stand around like the nice gentleman you are; they've got a buggy and child to shift. #Paul |
Buggies are wheelchairs!
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Buggies are wheelchairs!
On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 16:02:44 +0100, "Ian F."
wrote: On a bus this afternoon, I was sitting on one of the jump-seats in the wheelchair area. A girl with a buggy got on and glared at me until I got up and gave her my place. I would have just ignored her (unless she was pregnant with the next one, of course). -- Nick Cooper [Carefully remove the detonators from my e-mail address to reply!] The London Underground at War: http://www.cwgcuser.org.uk/personal/...ra/lu/tuaw.htm 625-Online - classic British television: http://www.625.org.uk 'Things to Come' - An Incomplete Classic: http://www.thingstocome.org.uk |
Buggies are wheelchairs!
#Paul wrote to uk.transport.london on Wed, 29 Jun 2005:
If your experience of buggies and mothers has made you hostile, think about what their experience is. You're just got to stand around like the nice gentleman you are; they've got a buggy and child to shift. #Paul Unfortunately it's a vicious circle - in my day, when you took a buggy on a bus folded, or not at all, they were lightweight and easy to fold. Because they no longer need to be folded, they have become very much larger and more unwieldy. So when they *do* need to be folded, as sometimes happens, it's very much more difficult for the poor parent or carer! -- "Mrs Redboots" http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/ Website updated 23 May 2005 |
Buggies are wheelchairs!
Clive wrote to uk.transport.london on Thu, 30 Jun 2005:
In message , writes they've got a buggy and child to shift. They are masters of their own fate. If they can't fold a push chair then walk, if they can't walk then keep your knees together and you won't have the trouble of push chairs and kids annoying real passengers who need to get from A to B. Lets not forget that these women have all day to do their shopping or what ever it is they do. While I find buggies on buses can be as annoying and intrusive as you evidently do, could I point out that a great many mothers of young children are obliged to work to make ends meet (and this has always been the case - the "Protestant work ethic" of father earning the family's living while mother stayed at home with the children was always a middle-class dream, never a working-class reality), so need to travel to work when you do. Perhaps *you* could change *your* working hours, since you are not encumbered by a family? Please do try not to be so appallingly, insensitively offensive. -- "Mrs Redboots" http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/ Website updated 23 May 2005 |
Buggies are wheelchairs!
On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 16:02:44 +0100, "Ian F."
wrote: On a bus this afternoon, I was sitting on one of the jump-seats in the wheelchair area. A girl with a buggy got on and glared at me until I got up and gave her my place. Most people think moving for "a girl with a buggy" is the polite thing to do. Clearly your manners are deficient. You have a choice of the *any vacant seat* (or even the top deck of a double), whilst she has the choice of one or two seats near the only available space to put her push-chair out of the way of other passengers. If the alternative was leaving the push-chair is the aisle, and then sitting as cross to it as possible, it seems she made the right decision for the greater comfort of all passengers. The signage clearly says that the space is for wheelchairs - since when have Big Mac-chomping, income support-claiming chav slappers with wailing brats require the same level of concern as people in wheelchairs? So what were YOU doing in the wheel-chair place? Was there not ANY other seat on the bus? Was she really eating a Big-Mac on the bus? How do you *know* she was on income-support? Are these just unsubstantiated rantings, or or are you just bleating because of YOUR selfishness? Sounds like you need to think of others and put yourself in the place of someone travelling with a child in a push-chair doing their best to minimise inconvenience to other passengers - not just some oh-so precious git in the jump-seat. -- Cheers, Jason. A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing on Usenet and in e-mail? |
Buggies are wheelchairs!
In message , Mrs Redboots
writes While I find buggies on buses can be as annoying and intrusive as you evidently do, could I point out that a great many mothers of young children are obliged to work to make ends meet (and this has always been the case - the "Protestant work ethic" of father earning the family's living while mother stayed at home with the children was always a middle-class dream, never a working-class reality), so need to travel to work when you do. Perhaps *you* could change *your* working hours, since you are not encumbered by a family? Please do try not to be so appallingly, insensitively offensive. I am sorry for offending you, but I still think mothers with pushchairs should have then folded before even attempting to board a bus. You're right that I don't understand everyone's circumstances, but I do understand the room these things take up and that modern buses of the kneeling type are for wheelchair access not pushchair access. A little thought would confirm my position, and I am white and working class. Just go back a few years and you'll remember that whilst we had rear loading with a conductor, he would refuse access to someone with an unfolded pushchair and would only wait for it to be folded if the bus was a bit early. -- Clive |
Buggies are wheelchairs!
you won't have the trouble of push chairs and kids
annoying real passengers who need to get from A to B. Lets not forget that these women have all day to do their shopping or what ever it is they do. I always presumed people with buggies were 'real passengers who need to get from A to B'. I've certainly never seen any holographic mothers with prams, nor any women with toddlers riding around and around on the bus all day not wanting to go anywhere. And of course many women with children have full or part time jobs as well as looking after the kids, but you knew that already. Matt Ashby www.mattashby.com |
Buggies are wheelchairs!
Clive wrote:
In message , writes they've got a buggy and child to shift. They are masters of their own fate. If they can't fold a push chair then walk, if they can't walk then keep your knees together and you won't have the trouble of push chairs and kids annoying real passengers who need to get from A to B. Lets not forget that these women have all day to do their shopping or what ever it is they do. -- Clive Clive, I'm very disappointed by this attitude. I often find your posts very interesting so it's a shame to see that you think this way. After all, your mother didn't keep her knees together, so what right do you have to judge others? Bringing up a child is not easy and being a good mother is a full-time job. I suspect you are from an older generation of men that still does not acknowledge this fact. For a young "chav" (if we must use that word) mother the task is made even harder by the fact that she herself probably did not have an idyllic childhood and has no clear idea of how to deliver one for her own children - as much as she would no doubt love to. Perhaps you should consider the sacrifices your own mother made for you, and the privileges that were bestowed upon you as a child, before mouthing off like this. |
Buggies are wheelchairs!
In message ,
Colin Rosenstiel writes I can see you're not a parent. Back to re-education camp for you my boy! Two, boy 27 girl22. -- Clive |
Buggies are wheelchairs!
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Buggies are wheelchairs!
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Buggies are wheelchairs!
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Buggies are wheelchairs!
In message ,
Colin Rosenstiel writes Two, boy 27 girl22. To whose transporting while young you contributed what? As I like walking (Don't tell Doug) I carried them on my shoulders. If you start when they're young and light you don't notice the gradual build up of weight. -- Clive |
Buggies are wheelchairs!
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Buggies are wheelchairs!
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Buggies are wheelchairs!
On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 12:44:41 +0100, Clive
wrote: In message , Mrs Redboots writes While I find buggies on buses can be as annoying and intrusive as you evidently do, could I point out that a great many mothers of young children are obliged to work to make ends meet (and this has always been the case - the "Protestant work ethic" of father earning the family's living while mother stayed at home with the children was always a middle-class dream, never a working-class reality), so need to travel to work when you do. Perhaps *you* could change *your* working hours, since you are not encumbered by a family? Please do try not to be so appallingly, insensitively offensive. I am sorry for offending you, but I still think mothers with pushchairs should have then folded before even attempting to board a bus. You're right that I don't understand everyone's circumstances, but I do understand the room these things take up and that modern buses of the kneeling type are for wheelchair access not pushchair access. Quote from TFL website: 'Today, our buses are environmentally friendly and easy to use.........Low-floor vehicles, retractable ramps and designated spaces for wheelchairs and pushchairs means improved accessibility for more people. A little thought would confirm my position, and I am white and working class. Just go back a few years and you'll remember that whilst we had rear loading with a conductor, he would refuse access to someone with an unfolded pushchair and would only wait for it to be folded if the bus was a bit early. But the design of buses has improved and the parents , who are much more numerous than wheelchair users, might reasonably expect that they don't have to mess around with folding buggies any more. -- Peter Lawrence |
Buggies are wheelchairs!
In message , Peter Lawrence
writes But the design of buses has improved and the parents , who are much more numerous than wheelchair users, might reasonably expect that they don't have to mess around with folding buggies any more. Are they prepared to fold up a pushchair if a wheelchair user gets on a bus they are already on? -- Clive |
Buggies are wheelchairs!
On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 12:44:41 +0100, Clive
wrote: I am sorry for offending you, but I still think mothers with pushchairs should have then folded before even attempting to board a bus. You're right that I don't understand everyone's circumstances, but I do understand the room these things take up and that modern buses of the kneeling type are for wheelchair access not pushchair access. No, they're not. They are provided with a low floor to aid access to everyone, be they in a wheelchair, with a pram or with lots of luggage, or often in mainland Europe with a bicycle. As it so happens, a wheelchair has priority over the other items, because it would generally be very difficult or impossible for its owner to fold it and put it elsewhere. The space exists. It may as well be used to assist those travelling. Personally, I would not put tip-up seats in the space concerned, be it on a bus or a train; not doing so avoids arguments, and the space can be used for standing if the bus is really busy. Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK When replying please use neil at the above domain 'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read. |
Buggies are wheelchairs!
On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 18:33:23 +0100, Clive
wrote: Are they prepared to fold up a pushchair if a wheelchair user gets on a bus they are already on? They certainly should be. If they are not (assuming they are able to do so), they are then being inconsiderate. Merely boarding an empty bus with an unfolded pram is not in itself an inconsiderate act. It is using the available facilities appropriately. (No, incidentally, I do not have young children). Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK When replying please use neil at the above domain 'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read. |
Buggies are wheelchairs!
On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:18:42 +0100, Paul Corfield
wrote: As others have said the space on these buses is for wheelchair users not specifically for buggies which are carried unfolded as a favour not a right. As I've said elsewhere, as have others, it is multipurpose space. The order of priority would, in my mind, typically be:- 1. wheelchair user 2. any passenger with an item that won't fit anywhere else on the bus without causing an obstruction, e.g. pram, very large or heavy suitcases etc 3. any other passenger As I also said elsewhere, I'd remove the seats from the space as it avoids arguments. Certainly on a decker, there are plenty of other seats, and if the bus is so full that the last 2 are needed, more standing space will come in useful at the next stop. Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK When replying please use neil at the above domain 'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read. |
Buggies are wheelchairs!
In message , Neil Williams
writes kneeling type are for wheelchair access not pushchair access. No, they're not. Yes they are, do you think that councils would go to the trouble of increasing curb heights at bus stops and bus companies providing special (therefore more expensive) busses than needed if it weren't for the legislation around access to invalids such as wheelchair users? -- Clive |
Buggies are wheelchairs!
On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:24:00 +0100, Clive
wrote: Yes they are, do you think that councils would go to the trouble of increasing curb heights at bus stops and bus companies providing special (therefore more expensive) busses than needed if it weren't for the legislation around access to invalids such as wheelchair users? 1. MK Metro have at least one low floor bus without a wheelchair space, so evidently, yes. This bus (relatively old, so probably one of the very early low floor designs) was clearly designed only to make it easier for people to board. (To be fair, I doubt a buggy would fit either). 2. That the money was spent predominantly to provide wheelchair access is irrelevant to the argument of whether the space is also intended for prams, luggage, standing passengers, bicycles or whatever else might happen to use it. 3. I've never seen a wheelchair user on a bus in Milton Keynes, ever, not on a single occasion. I have, however, seen many prams. 4. Assuming they do not take place at the same time on the same specific bus, provision for wheelchair and pushchair access are not mutually exclusive. Your comments are like saying that someone with heavy luggage should not use a station lift, because it was most likely funded on the basis of providing wheelchair access. Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK When replying please use neil at the above domain 'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read. |
Buggies are wheelchairs!
In message , Neil Williams
writes Your comments are like saying that someone with heavy luggage should not use a station lift, because it was most likely funded on the basis of providing wheelchair access. Not at all, I don't care if women want to take buggies onto busses, I'm simply pointing out that business doesn't make money by throwing it away on facilities that aren't a requirement. -- Clive |
Buggies are wheelchairs!
Clive wrote:
In message , Neil Williams writes Your comments are like saying that someone with heavy luggage should not use a station lift, because it was most likely funded on the basis of providing wheelchair access. Not at all, I don't care if women want to take buggies onto busses, I'm simply pointing out that business doesn't make money by throwing it away on facilities that aren't a requirement. But if the facilities enable parents with buggies to use buses conveniently, then the business *will* benefit, even if the facilities were provided because the DDA said they should be. -- Richard J. (to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address) |
Buggies are wheelchairs!
Paul Corfield wrote:
[I agree with most of your post, but this bit is not quite right...] As others have said the space on these buses is for wheelchair users not specifically for buggies which are carried unfolded as a favour not a right. TfL Conditions of Carriage, section 13.2.1: "Low floor buses improve accessibility for all passengers, especially those in wheelchairs and those with children in buggies/pushchairs. These buses are designed to allow wheelchairs, buggies and pushchairs to be wheeled on and off the bus and for them to be left unfolded in the wheelchair space provided for this purpose." It goes on to say that wheelchair users have priority, but it is clearly TfL policy to allow buggies to be left unfolded in the "wheelchair space" whenever possible. It's not a right, but it's more than just a favour. -- Richard J. (to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address) |
Buggies are wheelchairs!
"Neil Williams" wrote in message ... On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 18:33:23 +0100, Clive wrote: Are they prepared to fold up a pushchair if a wheelchair user gets on a bus they are already on? They certainly should be. If they are not (assuming they are able to do so), they are then being inconsiderate. Exactly -- if she is able to do so. If she is on her own then holding the infant, and bags that were hanging off/put underneath the pushchair, folding the pushchair, and then manoeuvring the combination on to the bus is not as easy as some on this newsgroup believe. Perhaps they'd be happier if those concerned didn't use public transport and used cars instead. Dave |
Buggies are wheelchairs!
Clive wrote:
In message , writes they've got a buggy and child to shift. They are masters of their own fate. If they can't fold a push chair then walk, if they can't walk then keep your knees together and you won't have the trouble of push chairs and kids annoying real passengers who need to get from A to B. Lets not forget that these women have all day to do their shopping or what ever it is they do. Ah, I see now. A troll or a moron. Goodbye. #Paul |
Buggies are wheelchairs!
"Peter Lawrence" wrote in message
... But the design of buses has improved and the parents , who are much more numerous than wheelchair users, might reasonably expect that they don't have to mess around with folding buggies any more. That doesn't alter the fact that I, a 55 year-old, am expected to jump up and hand over my seat the minute some 17 year-old chav slapper gets on the bus with a buggy the size of Peckham! Ian |
Buggies are wheelchairs!
"Nick Cooper" wrote in
message ... I would have just ignored her (unless she was pregnant with the next one, of course). Hindsight being, of course, 20-20 vision, that's what I should have done, yes. I'll know for next time - and there undoubtedly will be a next time. Ian |
Buggies are wheelchairs!
"Jason" wrote in message
... Most people think moving for "a girl with a buggy" is the polite thing to do. Clearly your manners are deficient. Well, I don't. I think it's polite to move for an elderly person. Or for a pregnant woman. Or for a disabled person. Please don't lecture me on manners, sonny. You have a choice of the *any vacant seat* (or even the top deck of a double), whilst she has the choice of one or two seats near the only available space to put her push-chair out of the way of other passengers. It's her choice to bring her whingeing brat onto public transport. I had no other choice of seat, and precious little standing space. The signage clearly says that the space is for wheelchairs - since when have Big Mac-chomping, income support-claiming chav slappers with wailing brats require the same level of concern as people in wheelchairs? So what were YOU doing in the wheel-chair place? Er - there were no wheelchairs in it. Was there not ANY other seat on the bus? No, not one. And very little standing space. By manhanddling her wretched machine onto the bus, she caused upset and disruption to several passengers. Was she really eating a Big-Mac on the bus? Not at that time, no. Her gob was too full of chewing-gum. How do you *know* she was on income-support? Beacuse this sort of person invariably is. I know - I pay for it. Are these just unsubstantiated rantings, or or are you just bleating because of YOUR selfishness? How is it selfish to expect kids with brats not to think the world revolves around them and their procreational activities? My rant is well substantiated. Ian |
Buggies are wheelchairs!
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