Gerrards Cross update 5/7/05
 

The diversion through Aylesbury is not an elegant solution. Wouldn't
it be great if there was an alternative?

Aylesbury through Verney Junction and Buckingham to Banbury would be so
useful right now.

As for Central Railway or the Great Central based HSL, Leicester
through Rugby, Woodford, Banbury and High Wycombe to London would be a
great route. Banbury would work well as interchange with local
traffic.

One can't imagine how the passenger feels, having reached Princess
Risborough to be going backward to Aylesbury. I guess as long as the
UK has politicians she will have a bizarre railway system.

Adrian, webmaster http://www.LosAngelesMetro.net
HOLLYWOOD, CA

Gerrards Cross update 5/7/05
 

"Adrian Auer-Hudson" wrote:


The diversion through Aylesbury is not an elegant solution. Wouldn't
it be great if there was an alternative?

Aylesbury through Verney Junction and Buckingham to Banbury would be so
useful right now.

As for Central Railway or the Great Central based HSL, Leicester
through Rugby, Woodford, Banbury and High Wycombe to London would be a
great route. Banbury would work well as interchange with local
traffic.

One can't imagine how the passenger feels, having reached Princess
Risborough to be going backward to Aylesbury. I guess as long as the
UK has politicians she will have a bizarre railway system.


And as long as the US has politicians it will have an almost total
absence of passenger railroads.

It beggars belief that someone from the land of the gas guzzling
automobile, and especially from the home of permanent smog, should
have the temerity to criticise any European railway system.

;-)

Gerrards Cross update 5/7/05
 

Actually Tony, I am from Aylesbury. And I do not think the politicians
here in the US are above criticism. When it comes to railroads, the
word clueless comes to mind.

The word 'system' would be hard to apply to most of the passenger
railroads in the United States.

Nevertheless having grown up near a town (Aylesbury) with fine rail
links both north and south. Said routes having the potential for
development into a fine network, you will understand my disappointment
at the leftovers that Aylesbury has for it rail link today.

This is particularly strange in so far as Aylesbury was part of an area
that was expected to see, and did see, expanded housing and employment
as companies and individual were encouraged to relocate away from
London in the 1960s and 1970s.

Aylesbury never did gain a motorway connection, for which I am
grateful. However, it lost a fine mainline to the north. It lost the
fast service to London. It lost its link to the WCML at Cheddington
and all local service going north. All tat remains are the stopping
DMU services to London.

A couple of years back I recall one lady politician at Westminster
refer to "Arrangements in Breweries". My first thought in response was
"She would know, wouldn't she".

For some years now Tony, I have been part of a successful campaign for
rail expansion here in Los Angeles County, see
http://www.friends4expo.org/ It has been a long slog. But we are
making progress and doing so in a metropolis that loves cars and
freeways.

:-) Have a nice evening

Adrian.
HOLLYWOOD, CA

Gerrards Cross update 5/7/05
 

In message .com,
Adrian Auer-Hudson writes
One can't imagine how the passenger feels, having reached Princess
Risborough to be going backward to Aylesbury.
They probably feel as I did when I last had to do that during
engineering works, in order to get back to Birmingham: grateful that
there was a through rail service at all at that time and that there
wasn't a replacement bus for part of the journey.

I guess as long as the UK has politicians she will have a bizarre
railway system.
True up to a point. However, Chiltern nor politicians can truly be
blamed for the circumstances which have caused the Gerrard's Cross
closure. Keeping the route open to Banbury via Verney Junction would
indeed have been useful now but can hardly have been justified *solely*
in case of a closure on one part of the line as now. To do that, every
section of track would require a diversionary alternative.
--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

Gerrards Cross update 5/7/05....Transport in Aylesbury
 

Aylesbury does still have good if bloody expensive rail connections with
Chiltern, there are plans for an Aylesbury North station to be built
along with a big housing development, what we really need are links west
to east, connecting us with Oxford, MK, and Cambridge now that would be
fantastic, with the planned expansion of the town with Mad Uncle
Prescotts lets cover the entire south east with homes idea, the amount
of traffic is going to go through the roof, parts of the town are
already a pollution hotspot! to have this rail link, along with a bypass
would hopefully sort out some of the chaos that we have now, oh and
don't get me started on Arriva busses (bunch of crooks).





Adrian Auer-Hudson wrote:
Actually Tony, I am from Aylesbury. And I do not think the politicians
here in the US are above criticism. When it comes to railroads, the
word clueless comes to mind.

The word 'system' would be hard to apply to most of the passenger
railroads in the United States.

Nevertheless having grown up near a town (Aylesbury) with fine rail
links both north and south. Said routes having the potential for
development into a fine network, you will understand my disappointment
at the leftovers that Aylesbury has for it rail link today.

This is particularly strange in so far as Aylesbury was part of an area
that was expected to see, and did see, expanded housing and employment
as companies and individual were encouraged to relocate away from
London in the 1960s and 1970s.

Aylesbury never did gain a motorway connection, for which I am
grateful. However, it lost a fine mainline to the north. It lost the
fast service to London. It lost its link to the WCML at Cheddington
and all local service going north. All tat remains are the stopping
DMU services to London.

A couple of years back I recall one lady politician at Westminster
refer to "Arrangements in Breweries". My first thought in response was
"She would know, wouldn't she".

For some years now Tony, I have been part of a successful campaign for
rail expansion here in Los Angeles County, see
http://www.friends4expo.org/ It has been a long slog. But we are
making progress and doing so in a metropolis that loves cars and
freeways.

:-) Have a nice evening

Adrian.
HOLLYWOOD, CA

Gerrards Cross update 5/7/05
 

"Adrian Auer-Hudson" wrote:

Actually Tony, I am from Aylesbury. And I do not think the politicians
here in the US are above criticism. When it comes to railroads, the
word clueless comes to mind.

The word 'system' would be hard to apply to most of the passenger
railroads in the United States.

Nevertheless having grown up near a town (Aylesbury) with fine rail
links both north and south. Said routes having the potential for
development into a fine network, you will understand my disappointment
at the leftovers that Aylesbury has for it rail link today.

This is particularly strange in so far as Aylesbury was part of an area
that was expected to see, and did see, expanded housing and employment
as companies and individual were encouraged to relocate away from
London in the 1960s and 1970s.

Aylesbury never did gain a motorway connection, for which I am
grateful. However, it lost a fine mainline to the north. It lost the
fast service to London. It lost its link to the WCML at Cheddington
and all local service going north. All tat remains are the stopping
DMU services to London.


I really wonder if you are talking about the Aylesbury I know, because
that is where I live.

Aylesbury has superb rail links to London, with fast, modern, clean
trains offering a punctual and reliable service. There are excellent
connections into the London Underground system, with whose services
the Aylesbury service of Chiltern Railways is well coordinated.

There are two routes to London, one via Amersham and the other via
High Wycombe. The latter route offers an easy interchange at Princes
Risborough with express trains to Banbury, Leamington Spa and
Birmingham, which have recently doubled in frequency.

Presumably you would like the little-used rural lines that used to
radiate from Aylesbury to be kept open with large government subsidy,
rather than spending the money on services that people actually want
to use, in very large numbers.

Chiltern Railways is a great success, and enjoys strong local support.

Please don't knock it.

I think your criticism of Aylesbury's excellent rail services is
wholly misplaced, being based on old fashioned sentiment rather than
common sense rooted in reality.

Gerrards Cross update 5/7/05....Transport in Aylesbury
 

"General Von Clinkerhoffen" wrote in message
...
Aylesbury does still have good if bloody expensive rail connections with
Chiltern,

Eh?

I'd call £10 for a day Travelcard to London (with a Network Card), giving
travel on all trains, buses, Underground etc. as far south as Orpington,
Croydon and Surbiton *bloody* good value for money.

Likewise £18 return to Brum is pretty good value compared with the walk-on
fares that the competition charge.

Gerrards Cross update 5/7/05....Transport in Aylesbury
 

"Jack Taylor" wrote:


"General Von Clinkerhoffen" wrote in message
...
Aylesbury does still have good if bloody expensive rail connections with
Chiltern,

Eh?

I'd call £10 for a day Travelcard to London (with a Network Card), giving
travel on all trains, buses, Underground etc. as far south as Orpington,
Croydon and Surbiton *bloody* good value for money.

Likewise £18 return to Brum is pretty good value compared with the walk-on
fares that the competition charge.


Well said, Jack. Chiltern Railways offer *excellent* value for money,
whether as a taxpayer or a farepayer.

Gerrards Cross update 5/7/05....Transport in Aylesbury
 

I pay £1648 annual season ticket from Aylesbury to Amersham, from Stoke
Mandeville it £300 cheaper, I call that expensive for a 15 mile journey.

Jack Taylor wrote:
"General Von Clinkerhoffen" wrote in message
...

Aylesbury does still have good if bloody expensive rail connections with
Chiltern,


Eh?

I'd call £10 for a day Travelcard to London (with a Network Card), giving
travel on all trains, buses, Underground etc. as far south as Orpington,
Croydon and Surbiton *bloody* good value for money.

Likewise £18 return to Brum is pretty good value compared with the walk-on
fares that the competition charge.

Gerrards Cross update 5/7/05....Transport in Aylesbury
 

General Von Clinkerhoffen wrote:

I pay £1648 annual season ticket from Aylesbury to Amersham, from Stoke
Mandeville it £300 cheaper, I call that expensive for a 15 mile journey.


Then why not drive? You have the choice.

Gerrards Cross update 5/7/05....Transport in Aylesbury
 

General Von Clinkerhoffen wrote:
I pay £1648 annual season ticket from Aylesbury to Amersham, from
Stoke Mandeville it £300 cheaper, I call that expensive for a 15 mile
journey.


Assuming a 5 day week and 48 weeks per year that's less than 23 pence per
mile.

Gerrards Cross update 5/7/05....Transport in Aylesbury
 

"Brimstone" wrote in message
...
General Von Clinkerhoffen wrote:
I pay £1648 annual season ticket from Aylesbury to Amersham, from
Stoke Mandeville it £300 cheaper, I call that expensive for a 15
mile
journey.


Assuming a 5 day week and 48 weeks per year that's less than 23
pence per
mile.


Not forgetting that the large difference in price between Aylesbury
and Stoke Mandeville is because the latter has a larger car park and
they want to encourage commuters to travel from there instead...
although obviously for commuters without cars it can be considered a
little unfair. That being said, a month or longer season from
Aylesbury gives you free travel on Arriva buses within Aylesbury.

Gerrards Cross update 5/7/05
 

Adrian Auer-Hudson wrote:
The diversion through Aylesbury is not an elegant solution. Wouldn't
it be great if there was an alternative?

Aylesbury through Verney Junction and Buckingham to Banbury would be so
useful right now.

As for Central Railway or the Great Central based HSL, Leicester
through Rugby, Woodford, Banbury and High Wycombe to London would be a
great route. Banbury would work well as interchange with local
traffic.

One can't imagine how the passenger feels, having reached Princess
Risborough to be going backward to Aylesbury. I guess as long as the
UK has politicians she will have a bizarre railway system.

Adrian, webmaster http://www.LosAngelesMetro.net
HOLLYWOOD, CA

The original reason was that politicians had nothing to do with it,
except to pass private Acts of Parliament to facilitate the haphazard
planning of dozens of private operators. The Settle-Carlisle route, now
a tourist attraction, was unnescessary even at the time, but the owner
of the comapny concerned just had to have a route to Scotland.

--
You can't fool me: there ain't no Sanity Clause. -Chico Marx

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/1955

Gerrards Cross update 5/7/05
 

Tony Polson wrote:
"Adrian Auer-Hudson" wrote:


The diversion through Aylesbury is not an elegant solution. Wouldn't
it be great if there was an alternative?

Aylesbury through Verney Junction and Buckingham to Banbury would be so
useful right now.

As for Central Railway or the Great Central based HSL, Leicester
through Rugby, Woodford, Banbury and High Wycombe to London would be a
great route. Banbury would work well as interchange with local
traffic.

One can't imagine how the passenger feels, having reached Princess
Risborough to be going backward to Aylesbury. I guess as long as the
UK has politicians she will have a bizarre railway system.



And as long as the US has politicians it will have an almost total
absence of passenger railroads.

It beggars belief that someone from the land of the gas guzzling
automobile, and especially from the home of permanent smog, should
have the temerity to criticise any European railway system.

;-)

There are politicians and ploiticians. Back in the days of President
Ford, he wanted to carve up Amtrack in a way that would probably ended
in its closure, but the House of Representatives stopped him. The Yanks
have some head bangers, but there are more checks and balances in their
system.

--
You can't fool me: there ain't no Sanity Clause. -Chico Marx

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/1955

Gerrards Cross update 5/7/05
 

Adrian Auer-Hudson wrote:

Nevertheless having grown up near a town (Aylesbury) with fine rail
links both north and south. Said routes having the potential for
development into a fine network, you will understand my disappointment
at the leftovers that Aylesbury has for it rail link today.

This is particularly strange in so far as Aylesbury was part of an area
that was expected to see, and did see, expanded housing and employment
as companies and individual were encouraged to relocate away from
London in the 1960s and 1970s.

This was typical of planning in the period, which assumed universal car
ownership. After all, we all watched Perry Mason, didn't we?
--
You can't fool me: there ain't no Sanity Clause. -Chico Marx

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/1955

Gerrards Cross update 5/7/05
 

"Martin Edwards" wrote in message
...
Adrian Auer-Hudson wrote:
The diversion through Aylesbury is not an elegant solution. Wouldn't
it be great if there was an alternative?

Aylesbury through Verney Junction and Buckingham to Banbury would be so
useful right now.

As for Central Railway or the Great Central based HSL, Leicester
through Rugby, Woodford, Banbury and High Wycombe to London would be a
great route. Banbury would work well as interchange with local
traffic.

One can't imagine how the passenger feels, having reached Princess
Risborough to be going backward to Aylesbury. I guess as long as the
UK has politicians she will have a bizarre railway system.

Adrian, webmaster http://www.LosAngelesMetro.net
HOLLYWOOD, CA

The original reason was that politicians had nothing to do with it, except
to pass private Acts of Parliament to facilitate the haphazard planning of
dozens of private operators. The Settle-Carlisle route, now a tourist
attraction, was unnescessary even at the time, but the owner of the
comapny concerned just had to have a route to Scotland.

--
You can't fool me: there ain't no Sanity Clause. -Chico Marx

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/1955
If anything, the US owes the form of its railway network to the politicians
of the 19th century, who offered very generous inducements (in the form of
land grants) in order to encourage the westward expansion of the railways
from St Louis etc. Nothing comparable existed in the UK at same period.
Brian

Gerrards Cross update 5/7/05
 

On Wed, 6 Jul 2005, Martin Edwards wrote:

Adrian Auer-Hudson wrote:

I guess as long as the UK has politicians she will have a bizarre
railway system.

The original reason was that politicians had nothing to do with it,
except to pass private Acts of Parliament to facilitate the haphazard
planning of dozens of private operators.

I think there was a bit more order to it than that, even if only a bit
more. For example, i understand that the government required railway
companies to build connections to other companies' tracks wherever
possible; it's only thanks to that that we have a single network at all!

tom

--
Like Kurosawa i make mad films; okay, i don't make films, but if i did they'd have a samurai.

Gerrards Cross update 5/7/05....Transport in Aylesbury
 

23p/mile I can do Aylesbury to Amersham cheaper in my car, I don't
because I like the option of walking to the station, or cycling.

Brimstone wrote:
General Von Clinkerhoffen wrote:

I pay £1648 annual season ticket from Aylesbury to Amersham, from
Stoke Mandeville it £300 cheaper, I call that expensive for a 15 mile
journey.



Assuming a 5 day week and 48 weeks per year that's less than 23 pence per
mile.

Gerrards Cross update 5/7/05....Transport in Aylesbury
 

Arriva buses are crap, get off train, walk to bus station, look for next
bus, there are 5 that travel along my route, next one is 30 mins, give
up and walk, to cap it all those crooks decided to reduce the child
discount from 50% to 25%, didn't tell anyone and left children waiting
at bus stops, I wouldn't urinate on a director of Arriva if they were
being consumed by fire.

Matt Wheeler wrote:
"Brimstone" wrote in message
...

General Von Clinkerhoffen wrote:

I pay £1648 annual season ticket from Aylesbury to Amersham, from
Stoke Mandeville it £300 cheaper, I call that expensive for a 15
mile
journey.


Assuming a 5 day week and 48 weeks per year that's less than 23
pence per
mile.



Not forgetting that the large difference in price between Aylesbury
and Stoke Mandeville is because the latter has a larger car park and
they want to encourage commuters to travel from there instead...
although obviously for commuters without cars it can be considered a
little unfair. That being said, a month or longer season from
Aylesbury gives you free travel on Arriva buses within Aylesbury.

Gerrards Cross update 5/7/05....Transport in Aylesbury
 

On Wed, 6 Jul 2005, General Von Clinkerhoffen wrote:

Aylesbury does still have good if bloody expensive rail connections with
Chiltern,

To London. Not so good to the north or Milton Keynes, right?

there are plans for an Aylesbury North station to be built along with a
big housing development,

Very true.

what we really need are links west to east, connecting us with Oxford,
MK, and Cambridge now that would be fantastic,

Milton Keynes, yes - i presume that's a reasonably big employment centre -
but i'm not sure about how much demand there is for trips to Oxford or
Cambridge. Still, if the line was there, it would have other uses!

with the planned expansion of the town with Mad Uncle Prescotts lets
cover the entire south east with homes idea, the amount of traffic is
going to go through the roof, parts of the town are already a pollution
hotspot! to have this rail link, along with a bypass would hopefully
sort out some of the chaos that we have now,

Where is the car traffic going?

In view of Mad Uncle Prescott's plans, which will surely lead to drastic
expansion of small towns and villages in the area, perhaps it would be a
good idea to bring the line continuing north from Aylesbury (and,
hopefully, Aylesbury North) up to standard, and use it to extend Aylesbury
commuter services to Waddesdon, Quainton, etc. That line already connects
to the (disused, i think) line to Milton Keynes, so commuter trains could
run there, too. If a curve the other way was built at that junction,
trains could also run to Bicester; with a connection to the existing
mainline there, this would be the alternate route to Birmingham. All
rather simpler than restoring the Quainton Road - Verney Junction route, i
think.

oh and don't get me started on Arriva busses (bunch of crooks).

Par for the course with bus companies.

tom

--
Like Kurosawa i make mad films; okay, i don't make films, but if i did they'd have a samurai.

Gerrards Cross update 5/7/05....Transport in Aylesbury
 

"General Von Clinkerhoffen" wrote in
message ...
Arriva buses are crap, get off train, walk to bus station, look for
next bus, there are 5 that travel along my route, next one is 30
mins, give up and walk, to cap it all those crooks decided to reduce
the child discount from 50% to 25%, didn't tell anyone and left
children waiting at bus stops, I wouldn't urinate on a director of
Arriva if they were being consumed by fire.


I am not going to pretend that Arriva are perfect, but i wouldn't go
as far as to say that they are crap. Without knowing where in
Aylesbury you are, I can't comment on how frequent the buses you can
catch are.... i live on route 9 though, so have a generally good
service all day and late into the evening, even if the buses seem to
be rather unreliable of late.

On the child rates, didn't they put them back to a more reasonable
level 40%, after the outrage in the local paper.... although that was
at least a year ago now....


Matt Wheeler wrote:
"Brimstone" wrote in message
...

General Von Clinkerhoffen wrote:

I pay £1648 annual season ticket from Aylesbury to Amersham, from
Stoke Mandeville it £300 cheaper, I call that expensive for a 15
mile
journey.


Assuming a 5 day week and 48 weeks per year that's less than 23
pence per
mile.



Not forgetting that the large difference in price between Aylesbury
and Stoke Mandeville is because the latter has a larger car park
and they want to encourage commuters to travel from there
instead... although obviously for commuters without cars it can be
considered a little unfair. That being said, a month or longer
season from Aylesbury gives you free travel on Arriva buses within
Aylesbury.

Gerrards Cross update 5/7/05....Transport in Aylesbury
 

"Matt Wheeler" wrote in message
...

I am not going to pretend that Arriva are perfect, but i wouldn't go
as far as to say that they are crap. Without knowing where in
Aylesbury you are, I can't comment on how frequent the buses you can
catch are.... i live on route 9 though, so have a generally good
service all day and late into the evening, even if the buses seem to
be rather unreliable of late.

Ditto! Although I normally walk in to town (or to Stoke Mandeville, as it
only takes about 10 mins longer than Aylesbury station).

Gerrards Cross update 5/7/05....Transport in Aylesbury
 

No they didn't put them back, or if they did their PR is as awful as
their services and they didn't tell anyone, I live along the Tring Road,
and I just don't bother to use them, it's pointless I can walk it
quicker and more reliably.

Londoners get a fantastic service, from the Bus, the tube, river bus,DLR
etc etc, young offenders in the capital will be getting Free bus
travel,while out in the sticks soon we will have all the people but none
of the services needed to cope.

Matt Wheeler wrote:
"General Von Clinkerhoffen" wrote in
message ...

Arriva buses are crap, get off train, walk to bus station, look for
next bus, there are 5 that travel along my route, next one is 30
mins, give up and walk, to cap it all those crooks decided to reduce
the child discount from 50% to 25%, didn't tell anyone and left
children waiting at bus stops, I wouldn't urinate on a director of
Arriva if they were being consumed by fire.



I am not going to pretend that Arriva are perfect, but i wouldn't go
as far as to say that they are crap. Without knowing where in
Aylesbury you are, I can't comment on how frequent the buses you can
catch are.... i live on route 9 though, so have a generally good
service all day and late into the evening, even if the buses seem to
be rather unreliable of late.

On the child rates, didn't they put them back to a more reasonable
level 40%, after the outrage in the local paper.... although that was
at least a year ago now....



Matt Wheeler wrote:

"Brimstone" wrote in message
...


General Von Clinkerhoffen wrote:


I pay £1648 annual season ticket from Aylesbury to Amersham, from
Stoke Mandeville it £300 cheaper, I call that expensive for a 15
mile
journey.


Assuming a 5 day week and 48 weeks per year that's less than 23
pence per
mile.



Not forgetting that the large difference in price between Aylesbury
and Stoke Mandeville is because the latter has a larger car park
and they want to encourage commuters to travel from there
instead... although obviously for commuters without cars it can be
considered a little unfair. That being said, a month or longer
season from Aylesbury gives you free travel on Arriva buses within
Aylesbury.

Gerrards Cross update 5/7/05
 

Adrian Auer-Hudson wrote:
Actually Tony, I am from Aylesbury.

I geussed that you might be from somewhere in that area; you're
probably the only person in America who has ever even heard of Verney
Junction for a start!

There's actually a lot of rail development going on over there at the
moment, at least in the New York/New Jersey area where I've been.

Re-equipment, modernisation and extension of the Newark City Subway,
with another extension in progress.

Opening, in four stages so far, with another under construction, of the
Hudson Bergen Light Rail system.

Opening of the NJ Transit 'River Line'

Opening of the Airtrain systems at JFK and EWR airports.

Refurbishment of the tunnel under the Hudson and construction of the
temporary station at WTC for PATH, plus re-opening of the IRT line to
South Ferry. New South Ferry station to be constructed soon.

Massive refurbishment and improvment works on the New York Subway, with
the construction of the 2nd Avenue Subway now a real possibility.

All of these are 'metro' type systems, rather than main line railways,
but there's a lot going on.

Gerrards Cross update 5/7/05....Transport in Aylesbury
 

"General Von Clinkerhoffen" wrote in message
...
23p/mile I can do Aylesbury to Amersham cheaper in my car,

Is that including all the costs or merely the direct ones?

Gerrards Cross update 5/7/05....Transport in Aylesbury
 

I already own the car, I already tax it, I already fill it with petrol
(petrol is cheaper in amersham as well), I already MOT and service it,
there really aren't many other factors to take in.

Brimstone wrote:
"General Von Clinkerhoffen" wrote in message
...

23p/mile I can do Aylesbury to Amersham cheaper in my car,


Is that including all the costs or merely the direct ones?

Gerrards Cross update 5/7/05....Transport in Aylesbury
 

General Von Clinkerhoffen wrote:
I already own the car, I already tax it, I already fill it with petrol
(petrol is cheaper in amersham as well), I already MOT and service it,
there really aren't many other factors to take in.


So you don't take into accout all the costs of driving to the station?

Gerrards Cross update 5/7/05
 

"Martin Edwards" wrote
The original reason was that politicians had nothing to do with it,
except to pass private Acts of Parliament to facilitate the haphazard
planning of dozens of private operators. The Settle-Carlisle route, now
a tourist attraction, was unnescessary even at the time, but the owner
of the comapny concerned just had to have a route to Scotland.

The L&NWR were obstructive in allowing the Midland to work its Scottish
traffic via Clapham, Ingleton, Tebay and Shap, so the Midland obtained an
Act permitting it to build the Settle and Carlisle as an indepenedent route.
The L&NWR suddenly became reasonable, and offered attractive conditions for
the Midland to work its traffic via Ingleton, provided that the S&C was
dropped. The Midland presented an Abandonment Bill to Parliament, but it
didn't pass, and, pressed by the North British and the Lancashire &
Yorkshire, the Midland had to build the S&C - though at least they built it
well.

Peter

Gerrards Cross update 5/7/05....Transport in Aylesbury
 

On Wed, 6 Jul 2005 19:18:10 +0000 (UTC), "Brimstone"
wrote:

So you don't take into accout all the costs of driving to the station?

If he has made a lifestyle choice to own a car, why should he? He'd
have the car anyway.

If I made my decision to run a car purely on economic grounds I
wouldn't have one. As it happens, I *want* one. That is the only
reason I happen to need. As such, given that I have one, and given my
low mileage (services are always by time not mileage), the only
marginal cost of an extra journey is the petrol and parking charge (if
any).

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

Gerrards Cross update 5/7/05
 

In article ,
(Tom Anderson) wrote:

I think there was a bit more order to it than that, even if only a bit
more. For example, i understand that the government required railway
companies to build connections to other companies' tracks wherever
possible; it's only thanks to that that we have a single network at all!

ROFL! They had to put some in after the grouping or during the war but few
if any connections were Government-imposed.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Gerrards Cross update 5/7/05....Transport in Aylesbury
 

I've already stated that I don't use the car to drive to Amersham, I
take it that you mean environmental costs, pollution etc, well as I
don't use the car to get to work (unless I have to) they don't really count.

My point is that at 23p per mile for a 15 mile journey (It's probably
more as I get more AL than the assumed figures) I think that it is
expensive and I could do the journey for less in the car.

Incidently an annual season ticket all the way is about £3000 from
Aylesbury to Marylebone, anyone know how much that works out at per mile?

Brimstone wrote:
General Von Clinkerhoffen wrote:

I already own the car, I already tax it, I already fill it with petrol
(petrol is cheaper in amersham as well), I already MOT and service it,
there really aren't many other factors to take in.



So you don't take into accout all the costs of driving to the station?

Gerrards Cross update 5/7/05/Aylesbury ant its Railways, or lack thereof.
 

Tony Polson wrote:

I really wonder if you are talking about the Aylesbury I know, because
that is where I live.

Let us assume that your question is rhetorical and leave it at that.

Aylesbury has superb rail links to London, with fast, modern, clean
trains offering a punctual and reliable service. There are excellent
connections into the London Underground system, with whose services
the Aylesbury service of Chiltern Railways is well coordinated.

Chiltern have been an outstanding operator. Probably one of the few
success stories to emerge from privatization.

There are two routes to London, one via Amersham and the other via
High Wycombe. The latter route offers an easy interchange at Princes
Risborough with express trains to Banbury, Leamington Spa and
Birmingham, which have recently doubled in frequency.

One is aware of the above. And, again Chiltern can be commended for
their improvements.

Presumably you would like the little-used rural lines that used to
radiate from Aylesbury to be kept open with large government subsidy,
rather than spending the money on services that people actually want
to use, in very large numbers.

No I don't think Waddesden Manor should re-open. No do I think the
Brill Branch has a place in the modern world except possible and a
preservation project. I do think that extending, or re-opening, lines
to centers of population like Banbury and Milton Keynes has real value.
Not only would this offer local service but the opportunities for
connection to longer distance services. I do not think re-opening the
line to Cheddington has any merit, but I think re-connecting Aylesbury
to the WCML at Watford and/or Milton Keynes offers real travel
possibilities.

Can you explain why the citizens of Reading, Oxford, Watford, Leighton
Buzard, Luton, Bedford and Welwyn should all enjoy through services to
the North whilst those residing in Buckinghamshire's County seat do
not?

Chiltern Railways is a great success, and enjoys strong local support.

As it should. They are a good company.

Please don't knock it.

I think your criticism of Aylesbury's excellent rail services is
wholly misplaced, being based on old fashioned sentiment rather than
common sense rooted in reality.

Does "Old" equal "Bad"? I happen to think the loss of the Great
Central Route was a bad thing. Evidently Chiltern Railways agree with
me. They have discussed extending northwards.

Moreover I believe the Pacific Electric Railway better served Los
Angeles and its environs better than the present day freeway system.
In that respect my view is a minority one. But my view on that is far
from unique. New and shining is NOT always better. All that glitters
is not gold.

When the Great Central main line was closed, the SW main line to Exeter
was also slated for closure. Now that line is viewed as a valuable
aset. Yet if I apply your logic to that line, it should also have been
closed. I doubt you really believe that.

Your response appears to come from a man who is tired and whose pet
project has gone badly wrong. Neither of which will I hold against you


:-)

A.

LACo, CA.

Gerrards Cross update 5/7/05
 

Upon the miasma of midnight, a darkling spirit identified as Tony Polson
gently breathed:

Presumably you would like the little-used rural lines that used to
radiate from Aylesbury to be kept open with large government subsidy,
rather than spending the money on services that people actually want
to use, in very large numbers.

I don't know the area, but given that the govt seems hell-bent on
converting the entire SouthEast into one vast sea of Barrat box houses,
I suspect those same "little used rural lines" will indeed be needed
before much longer, except they'll no longer be rural, and be running at
inner-city-metro type frequencies in a desperate attempt to stave off
the inevitable gridlock.

Just why does gov.uk seem so utterly convinced that the entire
population of England, bar a few west-country hoteliers and the landed
gentry, should live within 50 miles of Central London?

NP: Razed In Black - Oh My Goth!
--
- Pyromancer Stormshadow.
http://www.inkubus-sukkubus.co.uk -- Pagan Gothic Rock!
http://www.littlematchgirl.co.uk -- Electronic Metal!
http://www.revival.stormshadow.com -- The Gothic Revival.

Gerrards Cross update 5/7/05
 

Upon the miasma of midnight, a darkling spirit identified as Martin
Edwards gently breathed:
Adrian Auer-Hudson wrote:
Nevertheless having grown up near a town (Aylesbury) with fine rail
links both north and south. Said routes having the potential for
development into a fine network, you will understand my disappointment
at the leftovers that Aylesbury has for it rail link today.
This is particularly strange in so far as Aylesbury was part of an
area
that was expected to see, and did see, expanded housing and employment
as companies and individual were encouraged to relocate away from
London in the 1960s and 1970s.

This was typical of planning in the period, which assumed universal car
ownership. After all, we all watched Perry Mason, didn't we?

Back in the 1980s I recorded a long Channel 4 series about public
transport. Alas I never got round to watching all of it (what was that
Douglas Addams said about having videos to watch programmes so you
didn't have to? g), but from one of the episodes I did watch I
remember someone commenting that the New Towns had been based on the
concept of universal car ownership, but completely ignored the fact that
one car per household does not mean one car per person, as usually the
main breadwinner will drive the car to work and leave the rest of the
family marooned in their
impossible-to-serve-sensibly-with-public-transport house for the day.

NP: Paralysed Age - Bloodsucker 2000 (Empire Of The Vampire).
--
- Pyromancer Stormshadow.
http://www.inkubus-sukkubus.co.uk -- Pagan Gothic Rock!
http://www.littlematchgirl.co.uk -- Electronic Metal!
http://www.revival.stormshadow.com -- The Gothic Revival.

Gerrards Cross update 5/7/05
 

Pyromancer wrote:
Upon the miasma of midnight, a darkling spirit identified as Tony
Polson gently breathed:

Presumably you would like the little-used rural lines that used to
radiate from Aylesbury to be kept open with large government subsidy,
rather than spending the money on services that people actually want
to use, in very large numbers.

I don't know the area, but given that the govt seems hell-bent on
converting the entire SouthEast into one vast sea of Barrat box
houses, I suspect those same "little used rural lines" will indeed be
needed before much longer, except they'll no longer be rural, and be
running at inner-city-metro type frequencies in a desperate attempt
to stave off the inevitable gridlock.

Just why does gov.uk seem so utterly convinced that the entire
population of England, bar a few west-country hoteliers and the landed
gentry, should live within 50 miles of Central London?


Because it has long been the case that people running businesses and other
organisation think they have to be near the seat of government which in turn
drags in other businesses and so it goes on. It's nothing new and if one
casts one's mind back governments spent large sums of money persuading
businesses to move out of London.

Gerrards Cross update 5/7/05
 

In message , Pyromancer
writes
Just why does gov.uk seem so utterly convinced that the entire
population of England, bar a few west-country hoteliers and the landed
gentry, should live within 50 miles of Central London?

Because the asking price of an ordinary terraced house in Reading is GBP
215k
http://www.austinandco.co.uk/details.php?prop=AUCO206
and for something similar in Bolton, it's GBP 80k?
http://www.regencyestates.co.uk/detail.asp?PID=479

Which is not to say they shouldn't be doing something to reduce demand
in the south east and increase it elsewhere.
--
Goalie of the Century

Gerrards Cross update 5/7/05
 

In message , at 07:59:00 on Thu, 7 Jul
2005, Goalie of the Century remarked:
Just why does gov.uk seem so utterly convinced that the entire
population of England, bar a few west-country hoteliers and the landed
gentry, should live within 50 miles of Central London?

Because the asking price of an ordinary terraced house in Reading is
GBP 215k
http://www.austinandco.co.uk/details.php?prop=AUCO206
and for something similar in Bolton, it's GBP 80k?
http://www.regencyestates.co.uk/detail.asp?PID=479

Which is not to say they shouldn't be doing something to reduce demand
in the south east and increase it elsewhere.

Which has a lot to do with rail transport. There are many businesses,
which even if relocated away from London, will involve significant
movements of senior management to and from London where they will meet
with all the people who haven't yet relocated. (And who probably never
will, as if they were dispersed then such meetings would be even more
difficult to arrange).

These are the people who buy the expensive open tickets, with "other"
people's money. But they aren't completely blind to the cost or to the
personal sacrifice on a day to day basis. Their experience does little
to encourage others to make the same lifestyle change.
--
Roland Perry

Gerrards Cross update 5/7/05/Aylesbury ant its Railways, or lackthereof.
 

Adrian Auer-Hudson wrote:

Moreover I believe the Pacific Electric Railway better served Los
Angeles and its environs better than the present day freeway system.
In that respect my view is a minority one. But my view on that is far
from unique. New and shining is NOT always better. All that glitters
is not gold.

Don't jump up and down on the bridge, if you get my drift.

--
You can't fool me: there ain't no Sanity Clause. -Chico Marx

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/1955

Gerrards Cross update 5/7/05
 

On Wed, 6 Jul 2005, Colin Rosenstiel wrote:

In article ,
(Tom Anderson) wrote:

I think there was a bit more order to it than that, even if only a bit
more. For example, i understand that the government required railway
companies to build connections to other companies' tracks wherever
possible; it's only thanks to that that we have a single network at all!

ROFL! They had to put some in after the grouping or during the war but
few if any connections were Government-imposed.

But ... but ... i read it on a website!

Specifically, Chris Tolley's Railway Junction Diagrams site:

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/cj.tolley/rjd/rjd-intro.htm

Which says:

"Although laws from the mid-1800's required newly-built railways to
connect to existing railways wherever practicable, thus building up a
network, like many well-intentioned pieces of legislation, this did not
lead to complete co-operation between the multiplicity of companies."

Have i been bamboozled?

tom

--
They travel the world in their ice cream van ...

Gerrards Cross update 5/7/05
 

On Thu, 7 Jul 2005 01:33:12 +0100, Pyromancer
wrote:

Back in the 1980s I recorded a long Channel 4 series about public
transport. Alas I never got round to watching all of it (what was that
Douglas Addams said about having videos to watch programmes so you
didn't have to? g), but from one of the episodes I did watch I
remember someone commenting that the New Towns had been based on the
concept of universal car ownership, but completely ignored the fact that
one car per household does not mean one car per person, as usually the
main breadwinner will drive the car to work and leave the rest of the
family marooned in their
impossible-to-serve-sensibly-with-public-transport house for the day.

That certainly was not the case in Crawley, where the provision of
both garages and parking places assumed a very low level of car
ownership in the initial developments.

The thinking seemed to be that, if you relocated people from inner
London, they would not want to own cars, and would be happy with
public transport. They were wrong.
--
Terry Harper
Website Coordinator, The Omnibus Society
http://www.omnibussoc.org